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What is next... (vet love thread?)

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Pattern Clarc Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.16 18:39:00 - [1] It's been a month, and no real update on where the game is going next. FW was great and everything but there has been a severe lack of content for members of older population in New Eden. Beyond the lackluster t2 battleships, has there really been anything targeted at us that has really excited those 2-3 year old players, given scene and reason to those train once only skills (advanced spaceship command, destroyers V just to name a few) Yes, I get it. New content for the younger players is accessible to more people, with less effort. When I started, the gulf between useless and usefulness was vast. Over the past 3 years however, things have changed, 800k starting skill points, an extensive array of new ships, improved community, FW, Adv learning skills req nerf, rigs, salvaging, new t1 ships including the rokh and drake, new cheap faction cruisers and t2 EA frigs etc. It's all good, older players can get into them too whilst the gulf between the a 2 month old player and 2 year old player isn't as stark. However, there comes a point in every pilot where it seems like eve becomes like a glorified chat client or that your forced into training capitals, or getting a super capital or looking at titans just because of the shallowness of the roles you've specialized and enjoy playing within have been completely exhausted. In essence, there are no longer any more ways of doing the same thing differently... and that in a persistent environment, aspirations cannot remain static, what I dreamed about doing should be continually exceeded and that content should be added, not just to expand what is possible... but deepen it too. Black op's and triage have been examples of this, however there implementation has left alot to be desired and it's perhaps this lack of attention (dare I say love?) that has probably left a number of 'vets' empty, and many more middle of the road players questioning the likely hood of there next GTC purchase. EvE is fundamentally about the connections you make with other people within the game, however it's sythisis with the lore, tools, environments and actions are what make a living, unique, machine. Are you satisfied with the depth of content? (specifically in relation to pvp and tactics?) Do you take your current collection of vets for granted and believe we'll be here no matter what? And if you don't, what is the way forward, What is next? The funny thing about balance is that it doesn't actually exist
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.07.16 19:04:00 - [2] it's been a whole month since a major free expansion! eve isn't even dying anymore, it's just dead! - -
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.07.16 19:05:00 - [3] FW provides veteran players with a massively target rich environment, the likes of which hasn't been seen in EVE. It's not just for new players. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Pattern Clarc Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.17 08:58:00 - [4] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 17/07/2008 08:58:37 Originally by: Winterblink FW provides veteran players with a massively target rich environment, the likes of which hasn't been seen in EVE. It's not just for new players. All noob content isn't just for new players and your also talking to a pilot from one of the most active FW corps out there. My point is that all the deeper content added (over the last year/18 months has been done in a half hearted way, neglectful of the needs of the older pilots. It's probably more cost effective to produce content for newer pilots for the above reason in the short term. But if the goals and 'end game' possibilities in term of character development don't progress at the same rate as the pilots, then it would appear that there is an inbuilt shelf life to the game which the CCP accepts which I don't believe should be true. Anyway, it doesn't seem like anyone cares... Fix lag first right? The funny thing about balance is that it doesn't actually exist
Riho Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.07.17 09:02:00 - [5] playing for close to 3 years... still havent reached to the point where i think... "sigh... need to train capitals because i got nothing else to train" mybe 2 years more and id think that:P ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
Drenan State War Academy	Posted - 2008.07.17 09:12:00 - [6] Vets in all MMO's suffer from 'burn-out' eventually. Vets in all MMO's think that they are indispensable to the game and that if they all left, the world would crumble. Cemeteries are full of indispensable people.
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.17 09:20:00 - [7] Originally by: Drenan n00bs in all MMO's learn eventually. N00bs in all MMO's think that they are entitled and that if they all left, the world would crumble. Cemeteries are full of clueless people. fixed
Jawas Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.17 10:28:00 - [8] There has to be a point where it ends. Continually adding content that gives vets more and more simply increases the gulf between vets and noobs - Ref: Titans. This has been proved with the recent SOV changes that have given large alliances even more power to hold their territory. It was bad enough for a new alliance to move in from lowsec, dig them out of their foxholes and fight for the space two years ago but now it's pretty near impossible. Even two years ago, you didn't get that many moving down from lowsec fighting for your patch of space and now, it's just gone totally dead in that respect. All you can do is pick fights with your next door neighbours who are also in 0.0 in an attempt to expand your own real estate. All CCP can really do is widen the game instead of extending it. That leaves the gulf between vets and noobs as it is but creates a new dimension that everyone can explore. That was attempted with FW but the problem came with required standings and your corp standings. The other limitation was that it really involves a lot of RP which doesn't appeal to some. I know what you mean about skill like Advanced Spaceship Command, Destroyers, Battlecruisers and so on. Been there, done that, got bored with waiting for them to finish as well. Lvl5 is more of a time sink since the gain is tiny in comparison to the time it takes to train. As a pre-req, it just makes the ship/mod or whatever seem that much more unobtainable to a newer player. I've looked at 100+ days of training and wondered if it was really worth it before now. Command Ships were my passion but now, they're just another ship in my collection. It's been said in the posts before mine, vets often burn out after a while of playing. I've been playing 3 years and tend to log in less and less now. I'm thinking of taking a break from it for a few months, keep the account running and log in to change skills, try to get some more skills up in the 5's but that's it. I'll see how I feel when I come back after that and log in for a while. If it still feels the same, it's time to pack it in. I'll take all my stuff and iskies to the grinder with my character and say my goodbyes to my corpmates. It's sad to reach the end-game because that's what it really is when you've done as much as you feel is enjoyable and now just find it boring. CCP can't really do much more for vets without creating a mega-imbalance that would cause more whinage on these forums than ever before from the newer players. Sad but true. -- Sig design in training: Remaining time 30 years 20 days, 4 hours, 10 mins, 15 seconds.
Pattern Clarc Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.17 10:53:00 - [9] The problem is that an MMORPG is a persistent environment, which should and does evolve and develop over time. At the +2 years ago, plenty of decent, aspirational content was introduced, motherships, commandships, etc. Then a clammour of noobs demanded the learning curve to be shallowed. They got there wish whilst everything beyond, remained static. Now i'm just asking the CCP to perhaps think about swinging the pendulum and to perhaps put more care into developing new content for vets, instead of delivering everything prenerfed to uselessness. (eg, triage, t2 battleships) The funny thing about balance is that it doesn't actually exist

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:00:00 - [10] We need some CW (Carebear Warfare) where we can go nuts with out mining lasers without fear for you all!! Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar?

Veldspar Bait	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:03:00 - [11] Originally by: Chribba We need some CW (Carebear Warfare) where we can go nuts with out mining lasers without fear for you all!! I was in ur asteroid fields minin ur veldspar. Veldspar Bait

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:07:00 - [12] Originally by: Veldspar Bait Originally by: Chribba We need some CW (Carebear Warfare) where we can go nuts with out mining lasers without fear for you all!! I was in ur asteroid fields minin ur veldspar. Veldspar Bait pics or stfu! The Veldspar roids will not take your baiting lightly! Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar?

Kendar Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:10:00 - [13] i thought this thread would contain golden showers.. im dissapointed
Ritzenhoff Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:28:00 - [14] Well I'm a veteran and FW has brought something for me. I'm improving the skills for pvp and ewar - was mostly mission runner and industrialist before now. So... FW hasn't brought anything new for vets who already have lots of the skills I'm lacking, except it does, it provides a new environment and set of challenges... in other words, I disagree, and those are my reasons. So in answer to your question, yes, I am satisfied. But then maybe partly it's because I have recently come back from a little break and the game seems 'fresh' again to me. From what you've written, I think maybe you need a bit of a break. I don't mean that in a "shut up or quit", "can I haz ur stuff plz" or "go play WoW" way at all. I'm just saying it did me the world of good and I am enjoying Eve again. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than most of the other rubbish that's out there. And as you rightly point out, there have been several additions aimed at older players in the past. FW is obviously for everyone, not specifically older players, so nothing specific in this expansion that fits your criteria. But I'm confident CCP has not forgotten the older, loyal client base and there will be more in future. As you say, might be nice to hear exactly what, but I'm happy enough to wait my turn.
Face Palmer Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:51:00 - [15] Edited by: Face Palmer on 17/07/2008 11:52:24 Originally by: Kendar i thought this thread would contain golden showers.. im dissapointed Linkage Linkeh edit
Neth'Rae Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.17 12:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Kendar i thought this thread would contain golden showers.. im dissapointed It actually says Vet Love, not Wet Love :D Request signatures at EVE-GFX
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.07.17 13:03:00 - [17] Consider this: - the average pilot age is 7 months - to keep a positive balance on the playerbase you need more people incoming than leaving - older players are more loyal than newer ones, and will not quit so easily So; all they need to do is to give new(er) players something cool and really shout hard about it to attract new players while throwing the old guys a bone once in a while, sicne you can't do both at the same time due to effort and cost.
Pattern Clarc Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.17 13:53:00 - [18] Originally by: Tzar'rim So; all they need to do is to give new(er) players something cool and really shout hard about it to attract new players while throwing the old guys a bone once in a while, sicne you can't do both at the same time due to effort and cost. I agree. All i'm saying is that it's probably about time to at least fix/unnerf vet content and describe ideas on future aspiration content The funny thing about balance is that it doesn't actually exist
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.17 13:58:00 - [19] Edited by: Tarminic on 17/07/2008 14:02:40 Adding new content for veterans is a hard thing to get right in EVE. In WoW all you need to do is add another 10 levels to your character and create harder quests and raids (more nuanced than that, but it's what it boils down to in the end). In EVE, however, it's hard to simply create a more powerful ship without unbalancing the game too much overall, so CCP needs to create new roles or ships that fill an unfilled role (so it doesn't completely obsolete a previous ship). I mean, what kind of new content can you create for someone that already flies capital ships? I don't think anyone wants to see the effect of Heavy Assault Carriers on game balance. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Pattern Clarc Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.17 14:19:00 - [20] Originally by: Tarminic Edited by: Tarminic on 17/07/2008 14:02:40 Adding new content for veterans is a hard thing to get right in EVE. In WoW all you need to do is add another 10 levels to your character and create harder quests and raids (more nuanced than that, but it's what it boils down to in the end). In EVE, however, it's hard to simply create a more powerful ship without unbalancing the game too much overall, so CCP needs to create new roles or ships that fill an unfilled role (so it doesn't completely obsolete a previous ship). I mean, what kind of new content can you create for someone that already flies capital ships? I don't think anyone wants to see the effect of Heavy Assault Carriers on game balance. I can imagine t2 carriers been heavily slanted to the 2 roles carriers currently do, offense and defence. Noobs can (and do) always bring numbers to blow whatever up and even further low tech/sp counters can be developed. The over arching point is that if you specialise in your favorite role, the game currently doesn't develop fast enough to ensure that there is enough depth to allow you to continue doing what you do in different ways. I was hoping it would, it doesn't seem to be the case anymore however. The funny thing about balance is that it doesn't actually exist
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.07.17 14:27:00 - [21] I'm sure this is something CCP developers are well aware of. A lot of them are veterans and it's their job. I'm sure they are at least as familiar with burn out as any of us. Tbh my burnout isn't really lack of challenge. If I wanted a challenge I could go back to 0.0, form a corp. Get into capitals. No, my problem is that I find it hard to motivate myself to make the effort. I'd rather diddle around running missions and chatting than actually try and achieve something. Then again a demanding job and not getting any younger probably has a lot to do with it. It's increasingly hard for me to give a monkey's about what happens inside a virtual world. I think the main reason I stay is because I've been here so long. I just want to see what happens and occasionally dabble in new stuff. I would like to see a mission generator though. I can summon up enough effort to investigate new missions -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Missile Bait	Posted - 2008.07.17 14:51:00 - [22] Edited by: Missile Bait on 17/07/2008 14:51:46 Originally by: Chribba Originally by: Veldspar Bait Originally by: Chribba We need some CW (Carebear Warfare) where we can go nuts with out mining lasers without fear for you all!! I was in ur asteroid fields minin ur veldspar. Veldspar Bait pics or stfu! The Veldspar roids will not take your baiting lightly! rofl... Log in and accept the contract from Veldspar Bait... Tis proof enough he mined your Dense Veldspar... lol. Also, look for a donation of isk from my main to go to your love cans. Small note attached to the send. approx game time of donation @ 14:48 Missile Bait
Slanty McGarglefist	Posted - 2008.07.17 14:57:00 - [23] Peter Frampton will join CCP Mitnal and the world famous jazz ensemble for an evening of decoration, toffee, and Sunday-night delights. It will be played at the EVE Retirement Home for all you old bitties. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler No Doh!
Dingi223	Posted - 2008.07.17 16:37:00 - [24] EVE is a sandbox as much as possible. However, when us older players have all the toys, and newer players need months to have even 1 toy, and years to get equivalent toys, the very nature of EVE and online gaming is that the game will stale. People want to play games and win, hence blobbing tactics - it's the only mechanism newer players have to compete. If you can never catch older players (or more accurately need years to be effective due to diminishing returns), most players will move on. Take a look at WoW, an artifical level cap allows new players to grind and catch up a lot quicker. By giving the older players even more toys you may increase your retention of your player base, however I believe you will reduce the inflow of newer players that believe they cannot compete. EVE, by it's very nature, is a game that seemed created with a great idea at the start, but slowly it's developing a very significant problem that in the world of MMOs I believe will result in fewer new players, unless the content continues to change and drive this aspect of the game. Which is what their content has been focused upon. In fact, by vets leaving, I think this increases the overall lifecycle of the game as it allows newer players to replace them, since newer players can never really join them. I have no idea what a potential solution is, because it's the sandbox nature of EVE that draws the players. However, it's also it's biggest limiting factor of getting new powergamers involved, which is fair size chunk of the MMO market, since powergamers cannot accept even being 10% behind. And in EVE, they simply would never catch up to the other power gamers.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.07.17 16:49:00 - [25] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/07/2008 16:53:10 Originally by: Dingi223 However, it's also it's biggest limiting factor of getting new powergamers involved, which is fair size chunk of the MMO market, since powergamers cannot accept even being 10% behind. And in EVE, they simply would never catch up to the other power gamers. You obviously dont know how little character points matters. A veteran with 50 mill skillpoints may use 20 million when he flies a specific ship. A newbie that focuses on skills to fly a specific ship have catched up in a year or so. More skillpoints means more options, thats it. Not that character skillpoints matter much, its the teamwork that does. Anyone can learn teamwork. It may be easy to think that you need 20 mill skillpoints to go to 0.0, but you really dont. You just need player skill and knowledge about Eve game mechanics, and that can be gotten from day one. A 3 month old player can easily kill a 3 year old player if he knows what he is doing and the other one doesnt. Try that in Wow where you can be the Chuck Norris of players and it still doesnt matter at all unless you are on the same character level. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
Pattern Clarc Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.17 17:28:00 - [26] I guess the point is - would you guys be happy if more (endgame like) content was ever introduced to EvE? The funny thing about balance is that it doesn't actually exist
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.17 17:44:00 - [27] Originally by: Riho playing for close to 3 years... still havent reached to the point where i think... "sigh... need to train capitals because i got nothing else to train" mybe 2 years more and id think that:P After almost 3 years I'm finally training for capitals. I ran out of worthwhile sub-capital goals months ago. 21 days for 13 DPS? 24 days for 21 DPS? No thanks. I've already got Frigate V in two races, Cruiser V in three races, Battleship V in one race and working on another. Command ships don't interest me, mining & industry don't interest me. What's left but capital ships? 900M worth of skill books, here I come! - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.17 17:52:00 - [28] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Riho playing for close to 3 years... still havent reached to the point where i think... "sigh... need to train capitals because i got nothing else to train" mybe 2 years more and id think that:P After almost 3 years I'm finally training for capitals. I ran out of worthwhile sub-capital goals months ago. 21 days for 13 DPS? 24 days for 21 DPS? No thanks. I'm always amazed by the amount of people who absolutely NEED to train all of those skills. I mean, a month or more of training for an extra 2% DPS? ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.17 17:56:00 - [29] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/07/2008 16:53:10 Originally by: Dingi223 However, it's also it's biggest limiting factor of getting new powergamers involved, which is fair size chunk of the MMO market, since powergamers cannot accept even being 10% behind. And in EVE, they simply would never catch up to the other power gamers. You obviously dont know how little character points matters. A veteran with 50 mill skillpoints may use 20 million when he flies a specific ship. A newbie that focuses on skills to fly a specific ship have catched up in a year or so. More skillpoints means more options, thats it. Not that character skillpoints matter much, its the teamwork that does. Anyone can learn teamwork. It may be easy to think that you need 20 mill skillpoints to go to 0.0, but you really dont. You just need player skill and knowledge about Eve game mechanics, and that can be gotten from day one. A 3 month old player can easily kill a 3 year old player if he knows what he is doing and the other one doesnt. Try that in Wow where you can be the Chuck Norris of players and it still doesnt matter at all unless you are on the same character level. QFT. In 3 months, any player could be just as good as me in any one of the three ships I fly most. It's not a matter of being better at one particular thing, just the number of things you can do well. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.07.17 18:31:00 - [30] Edited by: Alora Venoda on 17/07/2008 18:32:42 Originally by: Pattern Clarc I guess the point is - would you guys be happy if more (endgame like) content was ever introduced to EvE? the main issue is what qualifies as "endgame"... - PvP players would mainly benefit from new weapons or ships, or things to fight over like sovereignty in 0.0. - PvE players would benefit from new missions or plexes. - Industrialists would benefit from mining improvements, or new industrial and mining ships, or maybe new stuff to manufacture. the thing is, in EVE there isn't really any actual "endgame" because it's a sandbox. the closest thing is "the most intensive" within an area of gameplay. so PvP endgame would be fleet battles with lots of capital ships... but PvE endgame would be level 5 missions or 10/10 plexes. and the industrial endgame would be building cap ships and T2, using Rorquals and Jump Freighters. ultimately as more players reach the threshold of skills and resources when they can compete in these "endgame" activities, just like any MMO, they will comprise the majority of the playerbase. that is why other MMOs often focus most new content on the endgame. but due to the sandbox nature of EVE, there are so many things to do that many veteran players do not engage in "endgame" activity at all, but instead find a happy place where they can enjoy their sandcastle and just live in it. and unlike other MMOs, they do not need to constantly improve or upgrade their sandcastle to be happy. and a large contributing factor to this is the social nature of EVE. there are actual communities and economies formed, such that players can participate in them indefinitely without feeling "stuck with nothing to do". overall, improvements to the "endgame" areas of EVE would generally benefit the most players. although adding some new features that impact "middle game" could see an equal amount of overall benefit. of course it depends on the nature of such features, since unlike other MMOs, players doing "endgame" in EVE often still use much of the "lower level" stuff as well. so i think the real question most players are asking when CCP releases a patch is "would i find any of the new content useful?" ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.

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