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Pros and Cons:HAC's vs BC's

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Dinsdale Pirannha Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:00:00 - [1] I am soon reaching a point in my career where I will be making the next step up from cruisers. I have spent some time with the EFT and the stats of both classes, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why anybody goes into a HAC. Here is what I see: Skill Investment: way, way more required for HAC Weapon Slots: BC better Powergrid: BC much better CPU: BC much better Drone Bay: HAC much better Drone Bandwidth: HAC much better, but only if you are running Ogre II's or equivalent. With Hammerhead II's, both are equal Raw Tanking Capabilities: BC is probably twice as much Shield/Armour Resistances: HAC is much better (which mitigates item above) Bottom line, from what I can see, if two pilots with identical skills matched up, one in a HAC, one in a BC, the BC pilot would win. Can someone show me what I am missing in my logic with regards to the HAC? I am intrigued by the class, mainly because most people pass it by, but I would like to know if it is a viable class of ships.
Ichandasil Minmatar Department of Defence	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:03:00 - [2] speed kills
Soliscout	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:05:00 - [3] HAC¦s have the main advantage of having a very high speed, if fitted properly. Whenever you are hearing something about "imba broken nano" mainly a HAC was involved ^^
Annowyn Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:06:00 - [4] I think you need to re-examine. HACs: More maneuverable than battlecruiers. Have ridiculously better base resistances than battlecruisers. Have 4 ship bonuses NOT including the bonus to resists. Tend to have far sexier color schemes. Yeah. There are other perks too, but I'm just trying to help you along with your EFTing.
Traderboz	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:09:00 - [5] BC's do tend to be stronger combat ships, with a more powerful gank/tank. However, they are slower as a result of their size. For roaming, speed is very nice, as it lets you avoid camps and flee from fights when blobs show up or if you're just losing.
Donde Esta	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:13:00 - [6] bcs get better insurance payouts, and are cheaper
Emah Spina Phantom Squad G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:30:00 - [7] BC most cost efficient, and requiers less skill to fly. HAC's, simply fun to fly. I wish you luck hitting my HAC's with your BC
Dinsdale Pirannha Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:34:00 - [8] Originally by: Annowyn I think you need to re-examine. HACs: More maneuverable than battlecruiers. Have ridiculously better base resistances than battlecruisers. Have 4 ship bonuses NOT including the bonus to resists. Tend to have far sexier color schemes. Yeah. There are other perks too, but I'm just trying to help you along with your EFTing. More maneuverable, yes I see that. Same with base speed, 190 vs 145 (Gallente). Base resistances much higher, saw that and tried to factor that in. The 4 ship bonuses, yes I see the Medium Hybrid damage, the 10% bonus on drones, the 5km bonus on drone range, and the huge extra drone space (Ishtar). But the BC's get their own bonuses as well, some that overlap the HAC. What are the other perks you mentioned, other than the sexy colours (which is critical, BTW).
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:43:00 - [9] If you are on budget then BC's would be better option to go for. HAC's are a bit more fun (bcos of their greater agility) but for one HAC hull you can get 3 ... 4 BC ones. Stuff you fit on the ship will set you back approx same amount on both ships.
JS LiamElms Gallente Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:47:00 - [10] Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha Originally by: Annowyn I think you need to re-examine. HACs: More maneuverable than battlecruiers. Have ridiculously better base resistances than battlecruisers. Have 4 ship bonuses NOT including the bonus to resists. Tend to have far sexier color schemes. Yeah. There are other perks too, but I'm just trying to help you along with your EFTing. More maneuverable, yes I see that. Same with base speed, 190 vs 145 (Gallente). Base resistances much higher, saw that and tried to factor that in. The 4 ship bonuses, yes I see the Medium Hybrid damage, the 10% bonus on drones, the 5km bonus on drone range, and the huge extra drone space (Ishtar). But the BC's get their own bonuses as well, some that overlap the HAC. What are the other perks you mentioned, other than the sexy colours (which is critical, BTW). that little bit at the top.. more maneuverable, i think you underestimate this. just a small bit o_0 and the whole bonus thing.... ship bonuses, per lvl... right... lets think about the drone one for a minor second. How many heavy drones can you fit in that ishtar again? compared to your myrmidon? ANd what do you mean, you can have THAT many drones plus do over 6k nano'd..... and just remember you still getting the 5% bonus per lvl on drone dam.... so your drones are hitting like a biatch, spewing out more each time someone eventually gets around to shooting your drones, oh look, a new set just popped out of that tiny hull, and their sentries!!!! and what, you still can't hit it because its wooooooshing around ilke a cat with a hot poker up its a.ss

Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:49:00 - [11] I believe they both have their place and I myself fly both a BC and and Hac. The Ishtar is my nano ship. Expensive, not very durable but a real beast one on one. Can kill certain BS's solo. The speed is good for roaming. I can also rat in my PvP setup. Good for chasing targets around systems. The Brutix is my BC. Cheap as dirt to lose. Fully insurable and easy to replace. Crap for chasing but great for camping. Puts out a lot more DPS then my Ishtar. I always have 2-3 of them fit and in my hangar because they are a great throw away ship. I guess my theory is - Nano Hac = Great solo and good for pursing targets. BC = Great for camping gates/stations and cheap to loose. Not so great solo.
Traderboz	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:50:00 - [12] It's easy for Gallente, since Myrmy could use a little more bandwidth Other races have some very nice BC's though, like harbinger/cane/drake. The BC's are going to be stronger combat ships, but the HAC's have other bonuses and namely are much more agile.
Dinsdale Pirannha Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:58:00 - [13] OK, I think I get it. Stuff like this (Gallente Istar vs Mrym) Speed: 190 vs 145 Inertia: 0.65 vs 0.88 Signature Radius: 145 vs 300. The HAC is A LOT tougher to hit. My buddies are/will be flying Myrm's for a long time before I get a HAC, but maybe it is worth it.
Traderboz	Posted - 2008.07.18 17:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha OK, I think I get it. Stuff like this (Gallente Istar vs Mrym) Speed: 190 vs 145 Inertia: 0.65 vs 0.88 Signature Radius: 145 vs 300. The HAC is A LOT tougher to hit. My buddies are/will be flying Myrm's for a long time before I get a HAC, but maybe it is worth it. You need to look at how they will do with mods fit and not just raw speed. If you're going 300, that means nothing. If you're going 3000, it is a little better.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.18 17:26:00 - [15] Originally by: Traderboz Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha OK, I think I get it. Stuff like this (Gallente Istar vs Mrym) Speed: 190 vs 145 Inertia: 0.65 vs 0.88 Signature Radius: 145 vs 300. The HAC is A LOT tougher to hit. My buddies are/will be flying Myrm's for a long time before I get a HAC, but maybe it is worth it. You need to look at how they will do with mods fit and not just raw speed. If you're going 300, that means nothing. If you're going 3000, it is a little better. Aye, this is what we are talking about. For example. My Ishtar clocks in at around 3700m/s when fit and MWDing. My brutix clocks in at a massive 800 or something like that.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.07.18 17:28:00 - [16] As a general rule: BCs have more DPS, more tank (more base HP, fitting room and cap offsets the resist difference), and are much cheaper. HACs are faster and more agile, and tend to have better range. So the question is: are you going to make use of that speed and agility (not necessarily just in a nano setup) and/or extra range? If you're just slugging it out up close, take the BC. If you're abusing broken nano setups, want the extra mobility, or plan to be engaging at long(er) range, take the HAC.
Siddy Minmatar Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake	Posted - 2008.07.18 17:50:00 - [17] The guide line is; If you cant nano it, use plates. If you can nano a Hac, use nanos. If you cant nano but can plate, use plates. If you cant nano and cant plate, use BC. In nut shell Nano hac > Nano BC. Plate BC > Plate HAC
Dinsdale Pirannha Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.18 18:04:00 - [18] Could someone give me an example of 2 Ishtar setups, one for soloing in tight, the other for working at extreme range and letting the drones do the work? I am having a heluva time fitting a decent setup in the EFT, even with all skills set to 5. Actually, it is not that far stretch having all major support skills at 5 with a HAC, given the base skill requirements. thanks
Annowyn Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.18 18:19:00 - [19] Originally by: Siddy The guide line is; If you cant nano it, use plates. If you can nano a Hac, use nanos. If you cant nano but can plate, use plates. If you cant nano and cant plate, use BC. In nut shell Nano hac > Nano BC. Plate BC > Plate HAC This is rather good advice. There are some exceptions, but this is rather sound.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.18 18:21:00 - [20] Edited by: Ignatious Mei on 18/07/2008 18:22:14 Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha Could someone give me an example of 2 Ishtar setups, one for soloing in tight, the other for working at extreme range and letting the drones do the work? I am having a heluva time fitting a decent setup in the EFT, even with all skills set to 5. Actually, it is not that far stretch having all major support skills at 5 with a HAC, given the base skill requirements. thanks There is really only one PvP Ishtar setup. You can put a decent shield tank on one and use it for close range but its outdone by the drake and also because your using the mids for a shield tank you can't fit tackle gear. The standard Ishtar PvP nano fit is 2 over drives, 2 nanofibers and a intertia stab in the lows. @ large shield extenders, microwarp, cap battery or cap booster and 24k point in the mids. The highs are kind of personal preference. I fit 3 t2 light rails, 1 med neut and a cloak. The point of a setup like this is to stay out of web range and just within scram range and be going fast enough to not take much damage. This is also the reason why a nano setup generally isn't good for soloing at gates and stations because you can't web anyone and without webbing them they will just fly back to the gate. Thats why a BC is better in some situations.

Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned Dark Trinity Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.18 18:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha Could someone give me an example of 2 Ishtar setups, one for soloing in tight, the other for working at extreme range and letting the drones do the work? I am having a heluva time fitting a decent setup in the EFT, even with all skills set to 5. Actually, it is not that far stretch having all major support skills at 5 with a HAC, given the base skill requirements. thanks I don't fly gallente but I imagine soloing in an ishtar would be nano the ishtar, then orbit the target with a disruptor on him (so orbit at around 20km) while your drones do the work. The ranged setup would be the same but using sentry drones. These days I'm not really afraid of the nano ishtar (unless he uses sentries) as you can easily shoot the drones he sends out at you eventually he'll get sick of you popping he's drones and fly away. As for BC vs HAC thing I've found BC's tank better hacs are faster and tend to do more damage. I've fought a few times 1 vs 1 in a hurricane vs a vagabond I've found with a dual rep setup on cane the vagabond can't break the tank and the hurricane can't hit the vagabond often enough it's pretty much stalemate (unless ofc the vaga makes a mistake by bouncing off gate asteroid etc and getting webbed). Being nanoed the vagabond has the huge advantage of being able to dictate the fight and disengage and warp out pretty much anytime he likes. Which is reallly the huge advantage of the HACS they are much more suited to hit and run style combat (get in fast do damage and then leave) then a battlecruiser is. This is why you always see roaming hac gangs in 0.0 space. They are probably the best ship class in the game for small gang pvp.
Dinsdale Pirannha Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.18 19:13:00 - [22] Ummm...could someone explain the meaning/concept of "nanoing"?
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert-Nexus White Core	Posted - 2008.07.18 19:20:00 - [23] the art of nanoing is to make a ship go faster than most wep can track/fly often common place in hacs/recons not really viable on battlecruisers you wouldnt understand a hac till ya get in one if ya just use eft to compare
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.07.18 19:21:00 - [24] Nanoing something means you fit it to move at a speed (with sufficient agility) where the damage it takes is mitigated by said speed. This usually means 4.5-5km/s but can be as low as about 3km/s (though you will still take alot of damage at that speed. Generally, these ships have an egangement range from about 20km to 50km allowing their speed to act as a get out of jail free card though they are more than capable of sitting 20-24km out and keeping a target scrambled. Their natural prey is slow moving BS or BCs, their natural predators are cap warfare and web-bonus ships -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.18 19:47:00 - [25] Originally by: demonfurbie the art of nanoing is to make a ship go faster than most wep can track/fly often common place in hacs/recons not really viable on battlecruisers you wouldnt understand a hac till ya get in one if ya just use eft to compare Nanoing is speed fitting your ship through the use of polycarbon rigs, overdrive injectors, and Nanofiber Internal Structure mods. That it's referred to as "nano" is a throwback to old days when nanofibers used to be way more potent and were heavily abused. The modules have changed, and the results aren't what they used to be, but the type of effect is the same. Typical nano hacs and recons are 3.2 - 3.8km/s with great skills and 3% rogue implants for most ships. The vagabond is the notable exception. If you throw in a snake set (4BN for high grade) you're looking at pretty ridiculous speeds at an absurd price. Most of the people saying nanos faster than that are exaggerating, lying, or only looking at the vagabond, or an unusually fast (snake set) ship. Generally because they don't like nanos. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Dinsdale Pirannha Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.18 19:55:00 - [26] Well, I must be doing something wrong in the EFT then. I am using the all Level V baseline. Low slots: Overdrive Injector II Overdrive Injector II Inertial Stabilizer II 800 mm Rolled Tungsten 800 mm Rolled Tungsten Mid Slots: 10 MN Microwarpdrive II Medium Cap Battery II That gets me up to 2150 m/s, with a signature of 1046 m2. Seems to be a pretty big target for 2150 m/s at 20-25 km. How do I get this puppy up to 3000 m/s without sacrificing armour?
Red Harvest	Posted - 2008.07.18 20:32:00 - [27] Edited by: Red Harvest on 18/07/2008 20:32:51 Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha on 18/07/2008 20:04:23 Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha on 18/07/2008 19:57:12 Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha on 18/07/2008 19:56:46 Well, I must be doing something wrong in the EFT then. I am using the all Level V baseline. Low slots: Overdrive Injector II Overdrive Injector II Inertial Stabilizer II 800 mm Rolled Tungsten 800 mm Rolled Tungsten Mid Slots: 10 MN Microwarpdrive II Medium Cap Battery II That gets me up to 2150 m/s, with a signature of 1046 m2. Seems to be a pretty big target for 2150 m/s at 20-25 km. How do I get this puppy up to 3000 m/s without sacrificing armour? OK, I get it, I DO have to sacrifice ALL my armour. Even then my speed is nowhere close to 3000 m/s. And what the heck is a 24K Point? erm Why are you fitting those 800mm plates? They are killing any speed advantage you get from the overdrives. 2x Overdrive Injector t2 1x Inertia Stabilier t2 2x Nanofiber Internal Structure t2 1x 10mn MWD t2 = 3057 m/s with all skills at lvl5 24km point = Warp Disruptor t2 called 24km point due to its range
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.18 20:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha on 18/07/2008 20:04:23 Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha on 18/07/2008 19:57:12 Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha on 18/07/2008 19:56:46 Well, I must be doing something wrong in the EFT then. I am using the all Level V baseline. Low slots: Overdrive Injector II Overdrive Injector II Inertial Stabilizer II 800 mm Rolled Tungsten 800 mm Rolled Tungsten Mid Slots: 10 MN Microwarpdrive II Medium Cap Battery II That gets me up to 2150 m/s, with a signature of 1046 m2. Seems to be a pretty big target for 2150 m/s at 20-25 km. How do I get this puppy up to 3000 m/s without sacrificing armour? OK, I get it, I DO have to sacrifice ALL my armour. Even then my speed is nowhere close to 3000 m/s. And what the heck is a 24K Point? Heh, No plates!!! Plates add mass and reduce agility and MWD speed. You nano tanks with shield extenders in the mids. Also you need to post the ship your flying. I don't know what gallente ship has 2 mids and 5 lows...
Red Harvest	Posted - 2008.07.18 20:41:00 - [29] he¦s talking about ishtar fitting as far as i understood
Johan Price	Posted - 2008.07.18 20:46:00 - [30] Edited by: Johan Price on 18/07/2008 20:53:12 Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha on 18/07/2008 20:04:23 Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha on 18/07/2008 19:57:12 Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha on 18/07/2008 19:56:46 Well, I must be doing something wrong in the EFT then. I am using the all Level V baseline. Low slots: Overdrive Injector II Overdrive Injector II Inertial Stabilizer II 800 mm Rolled Tungsten 800 mm Rolled Tungsten Mid Slots: 10 MN Microwarpdrive II Medium Cap Battery II That gets me up to 2150 m/s, with a signature of 1046 m2. Seems to be a pretty big target for 2150 m/s at 20-25 km. How do I get this puppy up to 3000 m/s without sacrificing armour? OK, I get it, I DO have to sacrifice ALL my armour. Even then my speed is nowhere close to 3000 m/s. And what the heck is a 24K Point? Speed is your tank; don't plate. most common setup for a nano-ishtar: Nanofiber Internal Structure II Inertia Stabilizers II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 400 Large Shield Extender II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Improved Cloaking Device II Medium Energy Neutralizer II 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge S Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I 3800 m/s with perfect skills. Drones are up to you. With Hac IV, most people have 2 flights of heavy, 1 medium, and warrior II's. You can remove the web for another LSE but the webs saves your ass more often imo.



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