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Whats best sniper fleet ship?

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Giant Haystacks Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.07.19 13:09:00 - [31] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Aria Seniste The rokh is, hands down, the best fleet sniper (save for remote repping gangs. It doesn't spider tank well.). People seem to think it has lower DPS because it lacks a damage bonus. They ignore the fact that the rokh can use high damage ammo at longer ranges. For example, my Rokh fires antimatter 75-80 km, Uranium easily at 100-120, and Iridium 150-170. With my skills (close to maxed Rohk and Mega) and setup, from 150km Spike is the best ammo to use on the Rokh anyway, so for all practical purpose is is likely the one that will be loaded. So I have choice between a Rokh doing 300dps up to 224km optimal (+29 falloff so hitting to max lock range is possible) and to a Mega doing 400dps up to 183km optimal (+29 falloff). Mega is the best boat 90% of time, more damage, more tracking, smaller sig radius. Now the advantage of the Rokh is that it got much more effective HP, almost twice actually, and most of it in shield, which is very good for it's survivability. 400 dps at 183km? How many officer magstabs do you need for that With 425 II, 3 mag stabs, max skills and spike a mega will do 351 dps to the rokh's 321, so there's not really a lot between them. If the bs skill is only trained to 4 the damage difference is halved.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.07.19 13:40:00 - [32] now compair that to the apoc at those ranges and you will see why everyone is training Amarr BB. . .and the great capitals you get after that is just icing on an already attractive cake. ---- GO BLUE!!
Vasq Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.07.19 14:33:00 - [33] Rokh IMO as u can fit 3 dmg mods and a DD tank and still keep in sniping range Smoke me a kipper, i'll be back for breakfast!
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.07.19 15:11:00 - [34] They all have their advantages. The apoc and rhok get the range needed easily so it's nice for newer players and also allows one to fit more "other stuff" not oriented towards sniping. The apoc and abbadon do strong damage to shields but that dps slows down when they get to a stiff armor buffer. The abba does especially strong damage but cap is a big issue. The matari ones get strong alpha and the ammo's damage types are quite nice. It's strong against armor and uses less-seen damage types so people are less likely to be tanked against it. For example, the most common drones, hybrids, and lasers all do thermal and the minmatar titan is rare so tanking for an explosive DD is a low priority.
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.07.19 15:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Giant Haystacks Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Aria Seniste The rokh is, hands down, the best fleet sniper (save for remote repping gangs. It doesn't spider tank well.). People seem to think it has lower DPS because it lacks a damage bonus. They ignore the fact that the rokh can use high damage ammo at longer ranges. For example, my Rokh fires antimatter 75-80 km, Uranium easily at 100-120, and Iridium 150-170. With my skills (close to maxed Rohk and Mega) and setup, from 150km Spike is the best ammo to use on the Rokh anyway, so for all practical purpose is is likely the one that will be loaded. So I have choice between a Rokh doing 300dps up to 224km optimal (+29 falloff so hitting to max lock range is possible) and to a Mega doing 400dps up to 183km optimal (+29 falloff). Mega is the best boat 90% of time, more damage, more tracking, smaller sig radius. Now the advantage of the Rokh is that it got much more effective HP, almost twice actually, and most of it in shield, which is very good for it's survivability. 400 dps at 183km? How many officer magstabs do you need for that With 425 II, 3 mag stabs, max skills and spike a mega will do 351 dps to the rokh's 321, so there's not really a lot between them. If the bs skill is only trained to 4 the damage difference is halved. Oupsie, had 5 Warrior II in the mix, so 335 dps at 183 optimal vs 307 dps at 224 optimal for Rokh. So yes the difference is smaller, Rokh wins easily on survivability, Mega on price, tracking and damage. -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.19 15:43:00 - [36] Originally by: Gimpb The matari ones get strong alpha and the ammo's damage types are quite nice. It's strong against armor and uses less-seen damage types so people are less likely to be tanked against it. For example, the most common drones, hybrids, and lasers all do thermal and the minmatar titan is rare so tanking for an explosive DD is a low priority. Strong alpha, while cool, means very little in the fleet environment. Their ammo (Tremor, I'm guessing), still doesn't outdamage other battleships though. Plus they have lots weaker EHP.
Jim Raynor Caldari Shinra	Posted - 2008.07.20 00:38:00 - [37] Rokh is the best, better than Megathron. ------ I'll make a sig later.
Jahr Bin	Posted - 2008.07.20 02:26:00 - [38] Did you say, "fleet?" Then behold many fleet BS in a group.. Is this not what is referred to as a "blob?" Any BS fitted for sniping is a candiadte for membership in a blob, no?
BiggestT Caldari Fun Inc	Posted - 2008.07.20 06:27:00 - [39] Originally by: Vaal Erit ITT: Is someone going to wonder why the Minmatar don't have a dedicated Fleet BS with a bonus to tracking/range? same reason why id wonder why caldari have two sniper hacs ccp just mix things up a little sometimes ;) poudly annoying fc's since 2007
BiggestT Caldari Fun Inc	Posted - 2008.07.20 06:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Aria Seniste Originally by: Zurrar sniper?! who cares about sniper. the odds of really using a sniper ship in todays pvp is VERY SLIM. with vagas/nanos in general they will close on you before your very low dps (rails have high rof but very low dps, arty has a very nice alpha, lazorz just pwn, and missiles.... well you can warp before they hit you...) only real ship that would be capable of popping a nano ship (or 3, or 4, or 8...) would be any of the amarr bs. simply, what im trying to say is.... nano or bust... (thats what most of eve is doing now days) Yeah, because we all know you use nanos for all sorts of actual warfare. Nanos take down cynojammers and POS's exceptionally well! More threads =/= more use. Roaming gangs are pretty meaningless in the large scale of things, more of a pasttime than actual warfare. Now, to contribute! The rokh is, hands down, the best fleet sniper (save for remote repping gangs. It doesn't spider tank well.). People seem to think it has lower DPS because it lacks a damage bonus. They ignore the fact that the rokh can use high damage ammo at longer ranges. For example, my Rokh fires antimatter 75-80 km, Uranium easily at 100-120, and Iridium 150-170. The having eight guns also makes up for losing the damage bonus, slightly. In any case, you'll get more damage out of the short range ammo at long ranges. The reason Rokh's get a bad name is.. well, people think just because the rokh CAN shoot 250k, it MUST shoot 250k. Don't use Iron and sit at 250k. Use uranium / Iridium and sit at 100-150 with the rest of the fleet. And outdamage all of them with short range ammo. Remember: Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Also: The Rokh's extra midslots allow more tracking computers, which can more than compensate for the Mega's innate tracking bonus. At close range (the only time you'll have tracking worries), I just turn those three tracking CPU's from optimal scripts to tracking. ok im gonna be in a sniper bs with t2 rails soon and have a question does one always use t1 ammo in the fight? thought the only options wld be faction or spike poudly annoying fc's since 2007

Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.20 08:32:00 - [41] Edited by: Derek Sigres on 20/07/2008 08:35:37 The "Best" is hard to qualify - each race has a ship that does the job better than others but among one another you have vague differences that make one ship better than the other in certain scenarios. Nevertheless, as a general rule of thumb the Apoc wins the day. It doesn't have the BEST range but it does sling quite a bit of pain when you start calculating EITHER DPS or Alpha, and it can be fit with a substantial buffer tank. It's use of armor as a tank layer makes it more compatible from a logistics point of view thanks to the sheer number of armor tanked ships in comparison to shield tanked ships. Of course, the Rokh is no slouch in it's own playground. It effortlessly slings rail slugs out to the range limit, and skilled players can as such use higher damage ammo at the long ranges. While the Rokh's dps is inquestionably low in comparison to other ships, it does have the ability to deal more damage at extreme ranges than it's peers. It's resist bonus helps build that EHP defense, but it's reliance on shields for defense means it's going to have trouble when it comes to fleet logistics. Oddly enough it never seems to occur to the Rokh pilots that since THEY can all sit at 249 KM and deal damage they should and just shield transfer one another outside the effective range of the opposing fleet - I'm sure there are reasons for this but none of the arguments have struck me as compelling. Gallente and Minmitar have fleet sniper ships as well but they tend to fair poorly. The Minmatar take on the subject is high alpha strikes - something copied by the Apoc which manages to achieve better DPS as well. The Gallente ship does decent DPS but it's still bested on average by the Apoc. Both are forced to engage at approximately the same range as the Apoc making them at least somewhat less useful at common fleet ranges. The downside list is topped off by a huge difference in price tag between the Apoc and the Gallente/Minmitar presentation. This isn't to say that these ships can't contribute to a fight, it's just at the 160 km range the Apoc is superior in a lot of ways. What does this mean at the end of the day? Little. A true fleet battle in my experience hinges only loosely on what you do or what ship you chose or what fittings you used. You'll live or die by the flip of a coin - either you get primaried and die or you don't and live. The subtle differences in firepower and EHP are virtually irrelevent given the ease with which 20 (or more) battleships annihilate a single opponent.
Shaemell Buttleson Celestial Apocalypse The Requiem	Posted - 2008.07.20 09:06:00 - [42] I miss the days when FC's would love to have loads of Pests in their fleet.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.20 09:21:00 - [43] Originally by: ScoRpS If you can use alpha strike to pop a tanked bs with direct fire, and that means 1 collective volley from say 30 bs's. then your talking the buisness. zero reaction time to warp or rep. if u have to factor in any sort of dps then you're set up wrong for a fleet fight. For me its tempest's all the way. Its all about the alpha and 30 tempest's would probably decimate any other fleet of similar numbers, although apocs recently got some sort of boost. This. /thread
Mr Prong	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:15:00 - [44] Originally by: Arrs Grazznic Megathron: 7x 425mm T2 w/ Spike 1x Named MWD, 3x Sensor Booster T2 w/ range scripts 3x Mag Stab T2, 3x Tracking Enhancer II Remaining high, low, rig and drones as you see fit. Gets you your 250km and great damage potential. What is a Spike ? (sorry) Cheers, Arrs
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:07:00 - [45] Originally by: Kirja Originally by: ScoRpS If you can use alpha strike to pop a tanked bs with direct fire, and that means 1 collective volley from say 30 bs's. then your talking the buisness. zero reaction time to warp or rep. if u have to factor in any sort of dps then you're set up wrong for a fleet fight. For me its tempest's all the way. Its all about the alpha and 30 tempest's would probably decimate any other fleet of similar numbers, although apocs recently got some sort of boost. This. /thread Mis-informed. Yes, after that wonderful alpha, their battleships pop. And before you get another one off, Apocs already killed one of yours. You kill another of theirs, and shortly lose another battleship. Thanks to your low rate of fire, you just lost another. From there it goes downhill. It's harder to explain with words, but liang had a neat little picture thing that she showed. Basically, alpha means very little when sacrificing DPS.
ScoRpS 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.07.20 23:36:00 - [46] In my experience if you dont insta pop an opposing battle ship then it will probably warp out as it should be aligned for this exact reason. So insta popping even tanked battle ships via an insane alpha volley should solve this. No time to react basically. There are other scenarios where dps plays a more important role but in a text book fleet battle ship manouvre vs a similar opposing fleet, i still feel that a tempest rules the roost.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.20 23:49:00 - [47] Originally by: ScoRpS In my experience if you dont insta pop an opposing battle ship then it will probably warp out as it should be aligned for this exact reason. So insta popping even tanked battle ships via an insane alpha volley should solve this. No time to react basically. There are other scenarios where dps plays a more important role but in a text book fleet battle ship manouvre vs a similar opposing fleet, i still feel that a tempest rules the roost. Before the Apoc was boosted I'd say your assertion is at least moderately accurate. These days a Tachy wielding Apoc has almost as high of a volley damage and a much better ROF. Of course, EFT will lead us astray here since the Pest is playing in deep falloff while the Apoc is sitting in optimal. This means your supposed alpha superiority rapidly diminishes into nothing more than a theory thanks to the immense loss of damage thanks to all those missed shots. It would be nice if this wasn't the case but it seems the Pest is just generally bested in it's role by another ship. It doesn't mean the Pest can't contribute - simply that it doesn't contribute as much as other ships in an even fleet fight. Besides, if we are talking large fleets of 30 or more on a side it becomes irrelevent - either the Apoc or the Pest can generate the damage needed to instapop someone on the other side, and the Apocs faster ROF gives it the theoritical edge here since it can more rapidly pop targets than the Pest assuming one can actually manage targets around all the lag.
ScoRpS 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.07.20 23:57:00 - [48] i think i'd agree with that, apoc has had a boost and you kinda admit to the insta pop theory. We'll go around in circles i think arguing which ship is best when infact i think the argument is more about numbers. Can 30 rokhs insta pop an apoc?
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.21 01:10:00 - [49] Originally by: ScoRpS i think i'd agree with that, apoc has had a boost and you kinda admit to the insta pop theory. We'll go around in circles i think arguing which ship is best when infact i think the argument is more about numbers. Can 30 rokhs insta pop an apoc? This was pretty much the summation of my first post. The ship you choose and the fittings you use are largely irrelevent. Numbers are going to be more telling than anything else in the long run - everything else boils down to luck in my book.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.07.21 02:42:00 - [50] Well, it won't pull much DPS at 170km but at 140-150km the dominix can make an okay sniper style ship. Actually, to be quite honest, it truly shines at 100km but its primary weapon in this role has 42km falloff. Bare bones of it would look like: [Dominix, L5 - Sentrinix] Signal Amplifier II [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Sentry Damage Augmentor I Drone Control Range Augmentor I Drone Control Range Augmentor I Bouncer II x5 At max it'd pull almost 500 dps like that, 433 from the drones alone. Also, if you ignore a total lack of any mods getting fit to resist damage the typhoon can potentially throw out a sizable weight of fire at standard sniping ranges. It'd be the proverbial glass sledgehammer but I suppose that at least for PoS assault support it'd be okay. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.

Lucian Alucard Caldari Black Vice Industries	Posted - 2008.07.21 23:43:00 - [51] Tempest or Apoc, the Apoc has decent damage and awesome range and the Temp has brutal Alpha strike capability and ok range, mixed together in a fleet your gonna win easy if the enemy doesn't do the same
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.21 23:55:00 - [52] Originally by: Lucian Alucard Tempest or Apoc, the Apoc has decent damage and awesome range and the Temp has brutal Alpha strike capability and ok range, mixed together in a fleet your gonna win easy if the enemy doesn't do the same Except that alpha means very little and apoc can achieve near the same alpha with more EHP, DPS, and range.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.07.22 00:17:00 - [53] Originally by: Vaal Erit ITT: Is someone going to wonder why the Minmatar don't have a dedicated Fleet BS with a bonus to tracking/range? Because differences between the races and their ships are good?
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.07.22 00:40:00 - [54] Edited by: Boz Well on 22/07/2008 00:40:13 Originally by: Kyra Felann Originally by: Vaal Erit ITT: Is someone going to wonder why the Minmatar don't have a dedicated Fleet BS with a bonus to tracking/range? Because differences between the races and their ships are good? Race A's battleships being great and Race B's battleships sucking isn't quite the type of difference that is beneficial. Differences are fine, so long as things balance out in the end. Having one race's battleships be clearly weaker simply because that makes them 'different' is not a good thing.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 00:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Boz Well Edited by: Boz Well on 22/07/2008 00:40:13 Originally by: Kyra Felann Originally by: Vaal Erit ITT: Is someone going to wonder why the Minmatar don't have a dedicated Fleet BS with a bonus to tracking/range? Because differences between the races and their ships are good? Race A's battleships being great and Race B's battleships sucking isn't quite the type of difference that is beneficial. Differences are fine, so long as things balance out in the end. Having one race's battleships be clearly weaker simply because that makes them 'different' is not a good thing. Pilgrim sucks, rapier rocks. Youre not the only one in pain and misery. welcome to eve. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.22 00:43:00 - [56] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Pilgrim sucks, rapier rocks. Youre not the only one in pain and misery. welcome to eve. Dont even spew pilgrim BS into a battleship thread. Guess what, the curse isn't too bad of a ship either. Too bad the amarrian t2 cruiser lineup is pretty kickass, you don't seem to realize it.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 11:52:00 - [57] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Pilgrim sucks, rapier rocks. Youre not the only one in pain and misery. welcome to eve. Dont even spew pilgrim BS into a battleship thread. Guess what, the curse isn't too bad of a ship either. Too bad the amarrian t2 cruiser lineup is pretty kickass, you don't seem to realize it. You've got alot of racial perks like t2 shield resist advantage and speed advantage for alot of your t2 ships like your dictors, hacs and recons. T1 cruisers are great like rupture and stabber. They are actually useful. Amarr do have good cruisers BUT their T1 cruisers suck badly, really bad and the pilgrim is a horrid ship and curse isnt all that great if you can use a sac anyway. Just because the racial perks of minmatar doesnt perfectly enhance your battleships doesnt justify crazy boosts. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Mona X Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN	Posted - 2008.07.22 12:39:00 - [58] Originally by: Derek Sigres Oddly enough it never seems to occur to the Rokh pilots that since THEY can all sit at 249 KM and deal damage they should and just shield transfer one another outside the effective range of the opposing fleet - I'm sure there are reasons for this but none of the arguments have struck me as compelling. FCs. All the time they orders us to warp here or allign there, be ready to GTFO and they never have second warpoint for us, higher beings.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.22 12:48:00 - [59] The Mega Pulse Apoc can fight at over 100km if that matters. Though it is hard to fit Tachs on. All in all Tach Abaddon is probably the superior Amarr sniper. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 13:12:00 - [60] Everything below 150km is NOt a fleet sniper. FYI. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name



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