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Whats best sniper fleet ship?

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CommmanderInChief	Posted - 2008.07.18 23:00:00 - [1] Wondered whats best now - rokh? apoc? or even mega?
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.07.18 23:00:00 - [2] Rokh, if you really want to get those 249km range. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Arrs Grazznic Faster Than Light Logistics	Posted - 2008.07.18 23:07:00 - [3] Megathron: 7x 425mm T2 w/ Spike 1x Named MWD, 3x Sensor Booster T2 w/ range scripts 3x Mag Stab T2, 3x Tracking Enhancer II Remaining high, low, rig and drones as you see fit. Gets you your 250km and great damage potential. Cheers, Arrs
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.18 23:13:00 - [4] Edited by: baltec1 on 18/07/2008 23:14:20 The Apoc is the king of snipers with a range of 300km. Coupled with a gardian or two and you have a mighty weapon.
Kalanar Rulers Of Mankind Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.18 23:15:00 - [5] Originally by: Tamia Clant Rokh, if you really want to get those 249km range. Agreed
Broska coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.18 23:20:00 - [6] Ships and moduals? Anyway, from someone who's flown all. Fleet ships is quite well balanced. Mega is nice for DPS, great tracking, F-all alpha. No point using a hyp and domi is pritty useless at fleet fights. Tempest is nice for alpha, Tracking sucks though, so does ammo. Same with the mael and the phoon isn't a fleet ship. Geddon is nice and cheap and pritty good, Abbadon is pritty awsome, No ammo, no reloads help alot in long fights. Apoc is now great for range if you have low skills. Raven is a good support killer, but wouldn't really wanna bring it to a fleet fight, good for small gangs though, just ask Burn Eden, Scorp - Called primary quickly so not worth it, Cheap tho, Rohk good for long range if you have bad skills but mega is better. In terms of best to worst, for a skilled player. I'd say the mega, abbadon and tempest / mael are all pritty equal, each having there strengths and weakness's. For those short on the skill points side Apoc, Rohk and Raven are all ships that you can still fly and be usefull.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.07.18 23:33:00 - [7] The goal is to have the maximum dps at 170km or so - since that is where the fleet usually will be - any more and the tempests start to become useless. At those ranges the Apoc is the king because of its higher dps from the guns and the reload factor. The Rokh can shoot all the way out to the edge of grid, but it hits for practically nothing at those ranges - and its rare to see people that far out. Also, armor buffer is better then sheild buffer. . . ---- GO BLUE!!
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.07.18 23:34:00 - [8] ITT: Is someone going to wonder why the Minmatar don't have a dedicated Fleet BS with a bonus to tracking/range? -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Broska coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.18 23:49:00 - [9] Most fleet stuff is 150ish. Tempest is perfectly usable at that range. But yeah I agree at longer range it isn't as good. Mega is one of the most versitile and a has a great compramise between range and damage (well at least DPS.)
Kelron Queldine Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:08:00 - [10] Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 18/07/2008 23:19:21 The Apoc is the king of snipers with a range of 300km. Have fun with that, yeah. I hate signatures with no distinct break from the body of the post.

Zurrar Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:10:00 - [11] sniper?! who cares about sniper. the odds of really using a sniper ship in todays pvp is VERY SLIM. with vagas/nanos in general they will close on you before your very low dps (rails have high rof but very low dps, arty has a very nice alpha, lazorz just pwn, and missiles.... well you can warp before they hit you...) only real ship that would be capable of popping a nano ship (or 3, or 4, or 8...) would be any of the amarr bs. simply, what im trying to say is.... nano or bust... (thats what most of eve is doing now days) Originally by: Malcanis CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Aria Seniste	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:42:00 - [12] Originally by: Zurrar sniper?! who cares about sniper. the odds of really using a sniper ship in todays pvp is VERY SLIM. with vagas/nanos in general they will close on you before your very low dps (rails have high rof but very low dps, arty has a very nice alpha, lazorz just pwn, and missiles.... well you can warp before they hit you...) only real ship that would be capable of popping a nano ship (or 3, or 4, or 8...) would be any of the amarr bs. simply, what im trying to say is.... nano or bust... (thats what most of eve is doing now days) Yeah, because we all know you use nanos for all sorts of actual warfare. Nanos take down cynojammers and POS's exceptionally well! More threads =/= more use. Roaming gangs are pretty meaningless in the large scale of things, more of a pasttime than actual warfare. Now, to contribute! The rokh is, hands down, the best fleet sniper (save for remote repping gangs. It doesn't spider tank well.). People seem to think it has lower DPS because it lacks a damage bonus. They ignore the fact that the rokh can use high damage ammo at longer ranges. For example, my Rokh fires antimatter 75-80 km, Uranium easily at 100-120, and Iridium 150-170. The having eight guns also makes up for losing the damage bonus, slightly. In any case, you'll get more damage out of the short range ammo at long ranges. The reason Rokh's get a bad name is.. well, people think just because the rokh CAN shoot 250k, it MUST shoot 250k. Don't use Iron and sit at 250k. Use uranium / Iridium and sit at 100-150 with the rest of the fleet. And outdamage all of them with short range ammo. Remember: Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Also: The Rokh's extra midslots allow more tracking computers, which can more than compensate for the Mega's innate tracking bonus. At close range (the only time you'll have tracking worries), I just turn those three tracking CPU's from optimal scripts to tracking.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:45:00 - [13] Rokh FTW. Hits at any range, and does more damage at equal range. Fits a strong tank without being gimped by plates. - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Armoured C Gallente The Aztecs Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:47:00 - [14] hostile fleet is heading up ...what do we do ......set up bubble some of those webbie t2 recons ( cant think of the name for the life of me) and sniper battleships fleet 200km. if they dont have a high enough tranversal because there heading stright for you then pop
DHG Precision Engineering	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:49:00 - [15] Originally by: Zurrar sniper?! who cares about sniper. the odds of really using a sniper ship in todays pvp is VERY SLIM. with vagas/nanos in general they will close on you before your very low dps (rails have high rof but very low dps, arty has a very nice alpha, lazorz just pwn, and missiles.... well you can warp before they hit you...) only real ship that would be capable of popping a nano ship (or 3, or 4, or 8...) would be any of the amarr bs. simply, what im trying to say is.... nano or bust... (thats what most of eve is doing now days) Yes, ofcourse. Fleets don't have sniper BS's at all. My advice would be to learn a bit about fleet warfare. Yes, sniper BS are mostly useless in small gangs, but not fleets. Fleets rely on sniper BS to do their work. Yes, nano HACs can be part of a fleet, but just as support. This really looks like a stealth nano whine. The thing is, nano ships are only usefull for skirmish warfare. They GTFO before the blob arrives and that's it. Tried to incap a cynojammer with a nanogang lately? Yes, you see, they suck at fights where you can't GTFO due to the objective. The mobility advantage is lost when you're trying to secure a certain part in a system or trying to take the field where the defender is a very good defensive position.
Stab Wounds Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.19 01:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Zurrar sniper?! who cares about sniper. the odds of really using a sniper ship in todays pvp is VERY SLIM. with vagas/nanos in general they will close on you before your very low dps (rails have high rof but very low dps, arty has a very nice alpha, lazorz just pwn, and missiles.... well you can warp before they hit you...) only real ship that would be capable of popping a nano ship (or 3, or 4, or 8...) would be any of the amarr bs. simply, what im trying to say is.... nano or bust... (thats what most of eve is doing now days) qft
Nitakko Interstellar Corporation of Exploration Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.07.19 01:06:00 - [17] Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 18/07/2008 23:19:21 The Apoc is the king of snipers with a range of 300km. Coupled with a gardian and remote sensor boosting support you have a mighty weapon. That's very funny, there's a hard cap at 250km. Would you explain how you can get a 300km range?
Armoured C Gallente The Aztecs Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.19 01:09:00 - [18] Originally by: Nitakko Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 18/07/2008 23:19:21 The Apoc is the king of snipers with a range of 300km. Coupled with a gardian and remote sensor boosting support you have a mighty weapon. That's very funny, there's a hard cap at 250km. Would you explain how you can get a 300km range? i would also love to know his set up
ScoRpS 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.07.19 01:17:00 - [19] If you can use alpha strike to pop a tanked bs with direct fire, and that means 1 collective volley from say 30 bs's. then your talking the buisness. zero reaction time to warp or rep. if u have to factor in any sort of dps then you're set up wrong for a fleet fight. For me its tempest's all the way. Its all about the alpha and 30 tempest's would probably decimate any other fleet of similar numbers, although apocs recently got some sort of boost.
CommmanderInChief	Posted - 2008.07.19 09:42:00 - [20] thanks guys nice to see a informative post :)

Riho Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.07.19 09:52:00 - [21] Originally by: Tamia Clant Rokh, if you really want to get those 249km range. and apoc ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.19 10:10:00 - [22] Originally by: Nitakko Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 18/07/2008 23:19:21 The Apoc is the king of snipers with a range of 300km. Coupled with a gardian and remote sensor boosting support you have a mighty weapon. That's very funny, there's a hard cap at 250km. Would you explain how you can get a 300km range? Damn! Was going to try this out on singularity with some booster support ships
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2008.07.19 10:22:00 - [23] The cap is on lock range, not on optimal afaik. Not that you get any good out of shooting further than you can lock, but... And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.19 10:30:00 - [24] Edited by: Euriti on 19/07/2008 10:31:39 Originally by: Zurrar sniper?! who cares about sniper. the odds of really using a sniper ship in todays pvp is VERY SLIM. with vagas/nanos in general they will close on you before your very low dps (rails have high rof but very low dps, arty has a very nice alpha, lazorz just pwn, and missiles.... well you can warp before they hit you...) only real ship that would be capable of popping a nano ship (or 3, or 4, or 8...) would be any of the amarr bs. simply, what im trying to say is.... nano or bust... (thats what most of eve is doing now days) Congratulations sir! You win the "Worst post of the year" award by letting out unbelievable amounts of bullshit spiced with some nano whine. Most excellent sir, most excellent. Your post is so full of shit it's unbelievable. Please. PLEASE learn about fleet warfare before ever posting on the subject again. tia.
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.07.19 10:39:00 - [25] Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 19/07/2008 10:42:23 Originally by: Leandro Salazar The cap is on lock range, not on optimal afaik. Not that you get any good out of shooting further than you can lock, but... Its on sensor range only, a rokh can push its optimal way past 249 km if needed, it just can't hit anything at that range, same goes for the Apocalypse.
Stab Wounds Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.19 11:17:00 - [26] rokh is the only ship really built for sniping
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.19 11:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Stab Wounds rokh is the only ship really built for sniping In days past, only those in high favor with the Emperor could hope to earn the reward of commanding one of the majestic and powerful Apocalypse class battleships. In latter years, even though now in full market circulation, these golden, metallic monstrosities are still feared and respected as enduring symbols of Amarrian might. Special Ability: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use and 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range per level. Say what?
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.07.19 11:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Aria Seniste The rokh is, hands down, the best fleet sniper (save for remote repping gangs. It doesn't spider tank well.). People seem to think it has lower DPS because it lacks a damage bonus. They ignore the fact that the rokh can use high damage ammo at longer ranges. For example, my Rokh fires antimatter 75-80 km, Uranium easily at 100-120, and Iridium 150-170. With my skills (close to maxed Rohk and Mega) and setup, from 150km Spike is the best ammo to use on the Rokh anyway, so for all practical purpose is is likely the one that will be loaded. So I have choice between a Rokh doing 300dps up to 224km optimal (+29 falloff so hitting to max lock range is possible) and to a Mega doing 400dps up to 183km optimal (+29 falloff). Mega is the best boat 90% of time, more damage, more tracking, smaller sig radius. Now the advantage of the Rokh is that it got much more effective HP, almost twice actually, and most of it in shield, which is very good for it's survivability. -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine.
Spooooon Man	Posted - 2008.07.19 11:57:00 - [29] So what would be a good gallente sniper? I use rails (>_>) I was thinking Hyperion, but the Mega seems to be the way to go now, correct? 425mm t2s, mwd... range boosters/sensors w/ scripts? O_o
Neyro7830 Gallente Stormfront A.W. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.	Posted - 2008.07.19 11:58:00 - [30] Originally by: Spooooon Man So what would be a good gallente sniper? I use rails (>_>) I was thinking Hyperion, but the Mega seems to be the way to go now, correct? 425mm t2s, mwd... range boosters/sensors w/ scripts? O_o Ehm... wrong character, hehe >_>

Giant Haystacks Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.07.19 13:09:00 - [31] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Aria Seniste The rokh is, hands down, the best fleet sniper (save for remote repping gangs. It doesn't spider tank well.). People seem to think it has lower DPS because it lacks a damage bonus. They ignore the fact that the rokh can use high damage ammo at longer ranges. For example, my Rokh fires antimatter 75-80 km, Uranium easily at 100-120, and Iridium 150-170. With my skills (close to maxed Rohk and Mega) and setup, from 150km Spike is the best ammo to use on the Rokh anyway, so for all practical purpose is is likely the one that will be loaded. So I have choice between a Rokh doing 300dps up to 224km optimal (+29 falloff so hitting to max lock range is possible) and to a Mega doing 400dps up to 183km optimal (+29 falloff). Mega is the best boat 90% of time, more damage, more tracking, smaller sig radius. Now the advantage of the Rokh is that it got much more effective HP, almost twice actually, and most of it in shield, which is very good for it's survivability. 400 dps at 183km? How many officer magstabs do you need for that With 425 II, 3 mag stabs, max skills and spike a mega will do 351 dps to the rokh's 321, so there's not really a lot between them. If the bs skill is only trained to 4 the damage difference is halved.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.07.19 13:40:00 - [32] now compair that to the apoc at those ranges and you will see why everyone is training Amarr BB. . .and the great capitals you get after that is just icing on an already attractive cake. ---- GO BLUE!!
Vasq Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.07.19 14:33:00 - [33] Rokh IMO as u can fit 3 dmg mods and a DD tank and still keep in sniping range Smoke me a kipper, i'll be back for breakfast!
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.07.19 15:11:00 - [34] They all have their advantages. The apoc and rhok get the range needed easily so it's nice for newer players and also allows one to fit more "other stuff" not oriented towards sniping. The apoc and abbadon do strong damage to shields but that dps slows down when they get to a stiff armor buffer. The abba does especially strong damage but cap is a big issue. The matari ones get strong alpha and the ammo's damage types are quite nice. It's strong against armor and uses less-seen damage types so people are less likely to be tanked against it. For example, the most common drones, hybrids, and lasers all do thermal and the minmatar titan is rare so tanking for an explosive DD is a low priority.
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.07.19 15:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Giant Haystacks Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Aria Seniste The rokh is, hands down, the best fleet sniper (save for remote repping gangs. It doesn't spider tank well.). People seem to think it has lower DPS because it lacks a damage bonus. They ignore the fact that the rokh can use high damage ammo at longer ranges. For example, my Rokh fires antimatter 75-80 km, Uranium easily at 100-120, and Iridium 150-170. With my skills (close to maxed Rohk and Mega) and setup, from 150km Spike is the best ammo to use on the Rokh anyway, so for all practical purpose is is likely the one that will be loaded. So I have choice between a Rokh doing 300dps up to 224km optimal (+29 falloff so hitting to max lock range is possible) and to a Mega doing 400dps up to 183km optimal (+29 falloff). Mega is the best boat 90% of time, more damage, more tracking, smaller sig radius. Now the advantage of the Rokh is that it got much more effective HP, almost twice actually, and most of it in shield, which is very good for it's survivability. 400 dps at 183km? How many officer magstabs do you need for that With 425 II, 3 mag stabs, max skills and spike a mega will do 351 dps to the rokh's 321, so there's not really a lot between them. If the bs skill is only trained to 4 the damage difference is halved. Oupsie, had 5 Warrior II in the mix, so 335 dps at 183 optimal vs 307 dps at 224 optimal for Rokh. So yes the difference is smaller, Rokh wins easily on survivability, Mega on price, tracking and damage. -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.19 15:43:00 - [36] Originally by: Gimpb The matari ones get strong alpha and the ammo's damage types are quite nice. It's strong against armor and uses less-seen damage types so people are less likely to be tanked against it. For example, the most common drones, hybrids, and lasers all do thermal and the minmatar titan is rare so tanking for an explosive DD is a low priority. Strong alpha, while cool, means very little in the fleet environment. Their ammo (Tremor, I'm guessing), still doesn't outdamage other battleships though. Plus they have lots weaker EHP.
Jim Raynor Caldari Shinra	Posted - 2008.07.20 00:38:00 - [37] Rokh is the best, better than Megathron. ------ I'll make a sig later.
Jahr Bin	Posted - 2008.07.20 02:26:00 - [38] Did you say, "fleet?" Then behold many fleet BS in a group.. Is this not what is referred to as a "blob?" Any BS fitted for sniping is a candiadte for membership in a blob, no?
BiggestT Caldari Fun Inc	Posted - 2008.07.20 06:27:00 - [39] Originally by: Vaal Erit ITT: Is someone going to wonder why the Minmatar don't have a dedicated Fleet BS with a bonus to tracking/range? same reason why id wonder why caldari have two sniper hacs ccp just mix things up a little sometimes ;) poudly annoying fc's since 2007
BiggestT Caldari Fun Inc	Posted - 2008.07.20 06:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Aria Seniste Originally by: Zurrar sniper?! who cares about sniper. the odds of really using a sniper ship in todays pvp is VERY SLIM. with vagas/nanos in general they will close on you before your very low dps (rails have high rof but very low dps, arty has a very nice alpha, lazorz just pwn, and missiles.... well you can warp before they hit you...) only real ship that would be capable of popping a nano ship (or 3, or 4, or 8...) would be any of the amarr bs. simply, what im trying to say is.... nano or bust... (thats what most of eve is doing now days) Yeah, because we all know you use nanos for all sorts of actual warfare. Nanos take down cynojammers and POS's exceptionally well! More threads =/= more use. Roaming gangs are pretty meaningless in the large scale of things, more of a pasttime than actual warfare. Now, to contribute! The rokh is, hands down, the best fleet sniper (save for remote repping gangs. It doesn't spider tank well.). People seem to think it has lower DPS because it lacks a damage bonus. They ignore the fact that the rokh can use high damage ammo at longer ranges. For example, my Rokh fires antimatter 75-80 km, Uranium easily at 100-120, and Iridium 150-170. The having eight guns also makes up for losing the damage bonus, slightly. In any case, you'll get more damage out of the short range ammo at long ranges. The reason Rokh's get a bad name is.. well, people think just because the rokh CAN shoot 250k, it MUST shoot 250k. Don't use Iron and sit at 250k. Use uranium / Iridium and sit at 100-150 with the rest of the fleet. And outdamage all of them with short range ammo. Remember: Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Also: The Rokh's extra midslots allow more tracking computers, which can more than compensate for the Mega's innate tracking bonus. At close range (the only time you'll have tracking worries), I just turn those three tracking CPU's from optimal scripts to tracking. ok im gonna be in a sniper bs with t2 rails soon and have a question does one always use t1 ammo in the fight? thought the only options wld be faction or spike poudly annoying fc's since 2007

Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.20 08:32:00 - [41] Edited by: Derek Sigres on 20/07/2008 08:35:37 The "Best" is hard to qualify - each race has a ship that does the job better than others but among one another you have vague differences that make one ship better than the other in certain scenarios. Nevertheless, as a general rule of thumb the Apoc wins the day. It doesn't have the BEST range but it does sling quite a bit of pain when you start calculating EITHER DPS or Alpha, and it can be fit with a substantial buffer tank. It's use of armor as a tank layer makes it more compatible from a logistics point of view thanks to the sheer number of armor tanked ships in comparison to shield tanked ships. Of course, the Rokh is no slouch in it's own playground. It effortlessly slings rail slugs out to the range limit, and skilled players can as such use higher damage ammo at the long ranges. While the Rokh's dps is inquestionably low in comparison to other ships, it does have the ability to deal more damage at extreme ranges than it's peers. It's resist bonus helps build that EHP defense, but it's reliance on shields for defense means it's going to have trouble when it comes to fleet logistics. Oddly enough it never seems to occur to the Rokh pilots that since THEY can all sit at 249 KM and deal damage they should and just shield transfer one another outside the effective range of the opposing fleet - I'm sure there are reasons for this but none of the arguments have struck me as compelling. Gallente and Minmitar have fleet sniper ships as well but they tend to fair poorly. The Minmatar take on the subject is high alpha strikes - something copied by the Apoc which manages to achieve better DPS as well. The Gallente ship does decent DPS but it's still bested on average by the Apoc. Both are forced to engage at approximately the same range as the Apoc making them at least somewhat less useful at common fleet ranges. The downside list is topped off by a huge difference in price tag between the Apoc and the Gallente/Minmitar presentation. This isn't to say that these ships can't contribute to a fight, it's just at the 160 km range the Apoc is superior in a lot of ways. What does this mean at the end of the day? Little. A true fleet battle in my experience hinges only loosely on what you do or what ship you chose or what fittings you used. You'll live or die by the flip of a coin - either you get primaried and die or you don't and live. The subtle differences in firepower and EHP are virtually irrelevent given the ease with which 20 (or more) battleships annihilate a single opponent.
Shaemell Buttleson Celestial Apocalypse The Requiem	Posted - 2008.07.20 09:06:00 - [42] I miss the days when FC's would love to have loads of Pests in their fleet.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.20 09:21:00 - [43] Originally by: ScoRpS If you can use alpha strike to pop a tanked bs with direct fire, and that means 1 collective volley from say 30 bs's. then your talking the buisness. zero reaction time to warp or rep. if u have to factor in any sort of dps then you're set up wrong for a fleet fight. For me its tempest's all the way. Its all about the alpha and 30 tempest's would probably decimate any other fleet of similar numbers, although apocs recently got some sort of boost. This. /thread
Mr Prong	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:15:00 - [44] Originally by: Arrs Grazznic Megathron: 7x 425mm T2 w/ Spike 1x Named MWD, 3x Sensor Booster T2 w/ range scripts 3x Mag Stab T2, 3x Tracking Enhancer II Remaining high, low, rig and drones as you see fit. Gets you your 250km and great damage potential. What is a Spike ? (sorry) Cheers, Arrs
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:07:00 - [45] Originally by: Kirja Originally by: ScoRpS If you can use alpha strike to pop a tanked bs with direct fire, and that means 1 collective volley from say 30 bs's. then your talking the buisness. zero reaction time to warp or rep. if u have to factor in any sort of dps then you're set up wrong for a fleet fight. For me its tempest's all the way. Its all about the alpha and 30 tempest's would probably decimate any other fleet of similar numbers, although apocs recently got some sort of boost. This. /thread Mis-informed. Yes, after that wonderful alpha, their battleships pop. And before you get another one off, Apocs already killed one of yours. You kill another of theirs, and shortly lose another battleship. Thanks to your low rate of fire, you just lost another. From there it goes downhill. It's harder to explain with words, but liang had a neat little picture thing that she showed. Basically, alpha means very little when sacrificing DPS.
ScoRpS 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.07.20 23:36:00 - [46] In my experience if you dont insta pop an opposing battle ship then it will probably warp out as it should be aligned for this exact reason. So insta popping even tanked battle ships via an insane alpha volley should solve this. No time to react basically. There are other scenarios where dps plays a more important role but in a text book fleet battle ship manouvre vs a similar opposing fleet, i still feel that a tempest rules the roost.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.20 23:49:00 - [47] Originally by: ScoRpS In my experience if you dont insta pop an opposing battle ship then it will probably warp out as it should be aligned for this exact reason. So insta popping even tanked battle ships via an insane alpha volley should solve this. No time to react basically. There are other scenarios where dps plays a more important role but in a text book fleet battle ship manouvre vs a similar opposing fleet, i still feel that a tempest rules the roost. Before the Apoc was boosted I'd say your assertion is at least moderately accurate. These days a Tachy wielding Apoc has almost as high of a volley damage and a much better ROF. Of course, EFT will lead us astray here since the Pest is playing in deep falloff while the Apoc is sitting in optimal. This means your supposed alpha superiority rapidly diminishes into nothing more than a theory thanks to the immense loss of damage thanks to all those missed shots. It would be nice if this wasn't the case but it seems the Pest is just generally bested in it's role by another ship. It doesn't mean the Pest can't contribute - simply that it doesn't contribute as much as other ships in an even fleet fight. Besides, if we are talking large fleets of 30 or more on a side it becomes irrelevent - either the Apoc or the Pest can generate the damage needed to instapop someone on the other side, and the Apocs faster ROF gives it the theoritical edge here since it can more rapidly pop targets than the Pest assuming one can actually manage targets around all the lag.
ScoRpS 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.07.20 23:57:00 - [48] i think i'd agree with that, apoc has had a boost and you kinda admit to the insta pop theory. We'll go around in circles i think arguing which ship is best when infact i think the argument is more about numbers. Can 30 rokhs insta pop an apoc?
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.21 01:10:00 - [49] Originally by: ScoRpS i think i'd agree with that, apoc has had a boost and you kinda admit to the insta pop theory. We'll go around in circles i think arguing which ship is best when infact i think the argument is more about numbers. Can 30 rokhs insta pop an apoc? This was pretty much the summation of my first post. The ship you choose and the fittings you use are largely irrelevent. Numbers are going to be more telling than anything else in the long run - everything else boils down to luck in my book.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.07.21 02:42:00 - [50] Well, it won't pull much DPS at 170km but at 140-150km the dominix can make an okay sniper style ship. Actually, to be quite honest, it truly shines at 100km but its primary weapon in this role has 42km falloff. Bare bones of it would look like: [Dominix, L5 - Sentrinix] Signal Amplifier II [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Sentry Damage Augmentor I Drone Control Range Augmentor I Drone Control Range Augmentor I Bouncer II x5 At max it'd pull almost 500 dps like that, 433 from the drones alone. Also, if you ignore a total lack of any mods getting fit to resist damage the typhoon can potentially throw out a sizable weight of fire at standard sniping ranges. It'd be the proverbial glass sledgehammer but I suppose that at least for PoS assault support it'd be okay. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.

Lucian Alucard Caldari Black Vice Industries	Posted - 2008.07.21 23:43:00 - [51] Tempest or Apoc, the Apoc has decent damage and awesome range and the Temp has brutal Alpha strike capability and ok range, mixed together in a fleet your gonna win easy if the enemy doesn't do the same
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.21 23:55:00 - [52] Originally by: Lucian Alucard Tempest or Apoc, the Apoc has decent damage and awesome range and the Temp has brutal Alpha strike capability and ok range, mixed together in a fleet your gonna win easy if the enemy doesn't do the same Except that alpha means very little and apoc can achieve near the same alpha with more EHP, DPS, and range.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.07.22 00:17:00 - [53] Originally by: Vaal Erit ITT: Is someone going to wonder why the Minmatar don't have a dedicated Fleet BS with a bonus to tracking/range? Because differences between the races and their ships are good?
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.07.22 00:40:00 - [54] Edited by: Boz Well on 22/07/2008 00:40:13 Originally by: Kyra Felann Originally by: Vaal Erit ITT: Is someone going to wonder why the Minmatar don't have a dedicated Fleet BS with a bonus to tracking/range? Because differences between the races and their ships are good? Race A's battleships being great and Race B's battleships sucking isn't quite the type of difference that is beneficial. Differences are fine, so long as things balance out in the end. Having one race's battleships be clearly weaker simply because that makes them 'different' is not a good thing.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 00:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Boz Well Edited by: Boz Well on 22/07/2008 00:40:13 Originally by: Kyra Felann Originally by: Vaal Erit ITT: Is someone going to wonder why the Minmatar don't have a dedicated Fleet BS with a bonus to tracking/range? Because differences between the races and their ships are good? Race A's battleships being great and Race B's battleships sucking isn't quite the type of difference that is beneficial. Differences are fine, so long as things balance out in the end. Having one race's battleships be clearly weaker simply because that makes them 'different' is not a good thing. Pilgrim sucks, rapier rocks. Youre not the only one in pain and misery. welcome to eve. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.22 00:43:00 - [56] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Pilgrim sucks, rapier rocks. Youre not the only one in pain and misery. welcome to eve. Dont even spew pilgrim BS into a battleship thread. Guess what, the curse isn't too bad of a ship either. Too bad the amarrian t2 cruiser lineup is pretty kickass, you don't seem to realize it.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 11:52:00 - [57] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Pilgrim sucks, rapier rocks. Youre not the only one in pain and misery. welcome to eve. Dont even spew pilgrim BS into a battleship thread. Guess what, the curse isn't too bad of a ship either. Too bad the amarrian t2 cruiser lineup is pretty kickass, you don't seem to realize it. You've got alot of racial perks like t2 shield resist advantage and speed advantage for alot of your t2 ships like your dictors, hacs and recons. T1 cruisers are great like rupture and stabber. They are actually useful. Amarr do have good cruisers BUT their T1 cruisers suck badly, really bad and the pilgrim is a horrid ship and curse isnt all that great if you can use a sac anyway. Just because the racial perks of minmatar doesnt perfectly enhance your battleships doesnt justify crazy boosts. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Mona X Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN	Posted - 2008.07.22 12:39:00 - [58] Originally by: Derek Sigres Oddly enough it never seems to occur to the Rokh pilots that since THEY can all sit at 249 KM and deal damage they should and just shield transfer one another outside the effective range of the opposing fleet - I'm sure there are reasons for this but none of the arguments have struck me as compelling. FCs. All the time they orders us to warp here or allign there, be ready to GTFO and they never have second warpoint for us, higher beings.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.22 12:48:00 - [59] The Mega Pulse Apoc can fight at over 100km if that matters. Though it is hard to fit Tachs on. All in all Tach Abaddon is probably the superior Amarr sniper. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 13:12:00 - [60] Everything below 150km is NOt a fleet sniper. FYI. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name

Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.07.22 13:13:00 - [61] Originally by: ScoRpS If you can use alpha strike to pop a tanked bs with direct fire, and that means 1 collective volley from say 30 bs's. then your talking the buisness. zero reaction time to warp or rep. if u have to factor in any sort of dps then you're set up wrong for a fleet fight. For me its tempest's all the way. Its all about the alpha and 30 tempest's would probably decimate any other fleet of similar numbers, although apocs recently got some sort of boost. Not 100% truth. because you need high dps when you are killing capital ships. And when fighting on laggy environment of fleets against capital ships nothing is better than an Apoc. It does not need to reload and have a high dps. Usually amarr BS are the top damage dealers on dead capital ships among all the sub capital ships involved in the kill. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 13:14:00 - [62] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: ScoRpS If you can use alpha strike to pop a tanked bs with direct fire, and that means 1 collective volley from say 30 bs's. then your talking the buisness. zero reaction time to warp or rep. if u have to factor in any sort of dps then you're set up wrong for a fleet fight. For me its tempest's all the way. Its all about the alpha and 30 tempest's would probably decimate any other fleet of similar numbers, although apocs recently got some sort of boost. Not 100% truth. because you need high dps when you are killing capital ships. And when fighting on laggy environment of fleets against capital ships nothing is better than an Apoc. It does not need to reload and have a high dps. Usually amarr BS are the top damage dealers on dead capital ships among all the sub capital ships involved in the kill. Yeah but does it matter? I mean its not like people are buying a ship because "yay it gets ontop of 30min carrier pounding killmails". ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Stoffl LFC	Posted - 2008.07.22 14:39:00 - [63] How do you ppl get a Rokh and Mega outdamaging an Apoc in fleet-range(s) ? That's starting at approx. 150km optimal. Im comparing full rack of guns + 3 dmg mods. And with short-range faction ammo it's just getting worse, Rokh get's beaten by 150dps. The fleetpoc may be a glass-cannon, but it's dishing out way more pain than the other snipers.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.22 15:42:00 - [64] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 22/07/2008 15:43:20 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You've got alot of racial perks like t2 shield resist advantage and speed advantage for alot of your t2 ships like your dictors, hacs and recons. T1 cruisers are great like rupture and stabber. They are actually useful. Resist advantage? Like your t2 ships don't have good resists? Quote: Amarr do have good cruisers BUT their T1 cruisers suck badly, really bad and the pilgrim is a horrid ship and curse isnt all that great if you can use a sac anyway. Arbitrator doesn't suck. Omen isn't bad. Maller is funny as a bait ship. Yes, the pilgrim needs a boost. So does the bellicose. And the muninn. BTW, the curse is the only ship that I fear, no matter what I'm piloting. I wouldn't like to engage it in anything other than a neut domi. Quote: Just because the racial perks of minmatar doesnt perfectly enhance your battleships doesnt justify crazy boosts. I seem to be missing these "racial perks" as the only ones you mentioned was some "resist advantage" that you didn't even quantify, and speed advantage that means nothing at battleship level. Our align times aren't even good. And the resist "advantages" were for t2 ships only. Hasn't it been said that a good cruiser lineup doesn't deserve a failure of a BS lineup? PS, proposed (if you're actually reading the large projectiles thread, somehow I take it you're not) boosts actually put ACs below pulse lasers in every damage/range category. So, uh, buhu.
BiggestT Caldari Fun Inc	Posted - 2008.07.22 15:48:00 - [65] Originally by: Stoffl How do you ppl get a Rokh and Mega outdamaging an Apoc in fleet-range(s) ? That's starting at approx. 150km optimal. Im comparing full rack of guns + 3 dmg mods. And with short-range faction ammo it's just getting worse, Rokh get's beaten by 150dps. The fleetpoc may be a glass-cannon, but it's dishing out way more pain than the other snipers. a rokh sittig at 150km is like a zealot sitting at 35km doesnt happen, they mostly sit further poudly annoying fc's since 2007 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=828123 caldari drone boat enthusiast
BiggestT Caldari Fun Inc	Posted - 2008.07.22 15:48:00 - [66] Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 22/07/2008 15:43:20 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You've got alot of racial perks like t2 shield resist advantage and speed advantage for alot of your t2 ships like your dictors, hacs and recons. T1 cruisers are great like rupture and stabber. They are actually useful. Resist advantage? Like your t2 ships don't have good resists? Quote: Amarr do have good cruisers BUT their T1 cruisers suck badly, really bad and the pilgrim is a horrid ship and curse isnt all that great if you can use a sac anyway. Arbitrator doesn't suck. Omen isn't bad. Maller is funny as a bait ship. Yes, the pilgrim needs a boost. So does the bellicose. And the muninn. BTW, the curse is the only ship that I fear, no matter what I'm piloting. I wouldn't like to engage it in anything other than a neut domi. Quote: Just because the racial perks of minmatar doesnt perfectly enhance your battleships doesnt justify crazy boosts. I seem to be missing these "racial perks" as the only ones you mentioned was some "resist advantage" that you didn't even quantify, and speed advantage that means nothing at battleship level. Our align times aren't even good. And the resist "advantages" were for t2 ships only. Hasn't it been said that a good cruiser lineup doesn't deserve a failure of a BS lineup? PS, proposed (if you're actually reading the large projectiles thread, somehow I take it you're not) boosts actually put ACs below pulse lasers in every damage/range category. So, uh, buhu. STFU id gladly trade a cerb for a vaga anyday poudly annoying fc's since 2007 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=828123 caldari drone boat enthusiast
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.07.22 15:53:00 - [67] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: ScoRpS If you can use alpha strike to pop a tanked bs with direct fire, and that means 1 collective volley from say 30 bs's. then your talking the buisness. zero reaction time to warp or rep. if u have to factor in any sort of dps then you're set up wrong for a fleet fight. For me its tempest's all the way. Its all about the alpha and 30 tempest's would probably decimate any other fleet of similar numbers, although apocs recently got some sort of boost. Not 100% truth. because you need high dps when you are killing capital ships. And when fighting on laggy environment of fleets against capital ships nothing is better than an Apoc. It does not need to reload and have a high dps. Usually amarr BS are the top damage dealers on dead capital ships among all the sub capital ships involved in the kill. Yeah but does it matter? I mean its not like people are buying a ship because "yay it gets ontop of 30min carrier pounding killmails". It matters.. a lot. Meant you killed the enemy carrier far faster than you would with other BS. In fact with other BS you might not even kill it in laggy situation since every 10 shots a tempest might need to wait 40-60 seconds to be able to reload its guns, dropping the Effective damage so much that the carrier can be repaired etc... In a laggy huge fleet battle nothing is more efficient/cost than an APOC on the long run. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.07.22 15:57:00 - [68] Originally by: Anubis Xian The Mega Pulse Apoc can fight at over 100km if that matters. Though it is hard to fit Tachs on. All in all Tach Abaddon is probably the superior Amarr sniper. The one that can fire ONE WHOLE MINUTE? -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:06:00 - [69] Originally by: BiggestT STFU id gladly trade a cerb for a vaga anyday How mature of you. I'd rightly take that trade if you wanna do tempest for raven, too.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:08:00 - [70] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Pilgrim sucks, rapier rocks. Youre not the only one in pain and misery. welcome to eve. Dont even spew pilgrim BS into a battleship thread. Guess what, the curse isn't too bad of a ship either. Too bad the amarrian t2 cruiser lineup is pretty kickass, you don't seem to realize it. You've got alot of racial perks like t2 shield resist advantage and speed advantage for alot of your t2 ships like your dictors, hacs and recons. T1 cruisers are great like rupture and stabber. They are actually useful. Amarr do have good cruisers BUT their T1 cruisers suck badly, really bad and the pilgrim is a horrid ship and curse isnt all that great if you can use a sac anyway. Just because the racial perks of minmatar doesnt perfectly enhance your battleships doesnt justify crazy boosts. Are you honestly crying about Curse? Sac and Zealot aren't that good? Lol? Amarr have plenty of great smaller ships, just like Minmatar have plenty of great smaller ships. And all of these are completely irrelevant to battleships. "Waah you have Vagabond" is not a good argument to why the tempest should be trash.

Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:10:00 - [71] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Anubis Xian The Mega Pulse Apoc can fight at over 100km if that matters. Though it is hard to fit Tachs on. All in all Tach Abaddon is probably the superior Amarr sniper. The one that can fire ONE WHOLE MINUTE? No, the one that can fire for quite a bit longer. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:28:00 - [72] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Anubis Xian The Mega Pulse Apoc can fight at over 100km if that matters. Though it is hard to fit Tachs on. All in all Tach Abaddon is probably the superior Amarr sniper. The one that can fire ONE WHOLE MINUTE? No, the one that can fire for quite a bit longer. With 8 Tachyon, Aurora, 3 heatsinks, mwd fitted I come down to between 1min20 and 1min35 of continuous firing depending on rest of fit, with all level 5 starting at full cap. Guns draw 82cap/s, even a heavy cap booster that you don't have the grid to fit anyway would not sustain that. That's not very reasonable. 500 dps at 168 optimal is awesome on the other hand. But if the fight lasts for any length of time you'll be on 2 guns. -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 17:45:00 - [73] Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 22/07/2008 15:43:20 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You've got alot of racial perks like t2 shield resist advantage and speed advantage for alot of your t2 ships like your dictors, hacs and recons. T1 cruisers are great like rupture and stabber. They are actually useful. Resist advantage? Like your t2 ships don't have good resists? Quote: Amarr do have good cruisers BUT their T1 cruisers suck badly, really bad and the pilgrim is a horrid ship and curse isnt all that great if you can use a sac anyway. Arbitrator doesn't suck. Omen isn't bad. Maller is funny as a bait ship. Yes, the pilgrim needs a boost. So does the bellicose. And the muninn. BTW, the curse is the only ship that I fear, no matter what I'm piloting. I wouldn't like to engage it in anything other than a neut domi. Quote: Just because the racial perks of minmatar doesnt perfectly enhance your battleships doesnt justify crazy boosts. I seem to be missing these "racial perks" as the only ones you mentioned was some "resist advantage" that you didn't even quantify, and speed advantage that means nothing at battleship level. Our align times aren't even good. And the resist "advantages" were for t2 ships only. Hasn't it been said that a good cruiser lineup doesn't deserve a failure of a BS lineup? PS, proposed (if you're actually reading the large projectiles thread, somehow I take it you're not) boosts actually put ACs below pulse lasers in every damage/range category. So, uh, buhu. Wait, you seriously dont understand the resist advantage of T2 minmatar? Ok I'll explain this but it is funny because this is the race you fly. You should understand it. You see minmatar T2 ships get additional EM and Thermal resists because amarr are their enemy. Basically all minmatar T2 ships are also shield tanked (except muninn). Shields have weak thermal and em resists inherently. This means most minmatar T2 ships have very good distributed shield resists. So not only do your recons have an awsome ew (long webs, wich is awsome in the age of nanos) but your recon shield resists make it very easy to just slap two extenders and have great buffer while ships like curse are boned when they take fire from lasers specially. Arbi? Omen? Maller? Get real, the only usable cruisers are rupture, stabber, vexor, thorax, blackbird. Mimatar have 2 great cruisers. Amarr have half a cruiser (arbi is half a point, rest zero tbh). My point about the curse is that it has no role. If you wanna kill nanos you get minni recons. If you want to jam stuff you get ecm boats. If you want a solo boat you get a sacrilege. And let me tell you this. Curse is actually broken just like ishtar is. There is no practical fit that works that doesnt involve nano and when ccp nerf nano some day that ship is going to suck azz. I'm just saying small disadvantages of some minmatar BS is not really huge compared to all the advantages minmatar have in many other ship classes. It is not a huge deal. Its not like your whole race is broken. Its small issues like ammo of arties. Not reason to give tempests 7 turrets and the agility of a cruiser. Its used by many people and its not a crap ship as some try to portrait it. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 17:46:00 - [74] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 22/07/2008 17:46:18 Originally by: Boz Well Are you honestly crying about Curse? Sac and Zealot aren't that good? Lol? Uhm I never said anything degrading about sac and zealot. And yeah curse will suck once ccp nerf nano, just like ishtar because of failed roles and fittings. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.07.22 18:10:00 - [75] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Aria Seniste The rokh is, hands down, the best fleet sniper (save for remote repping gangs. It doesn't spider tank well.). People seem to think it has lower DPS because it lacks a damage bonus. They ignore the fact that the rokh can use high damage ammo at longer ranges. For example, my Rokh fires antimatter 75-80 km, Uranium easily at 100-120, and Iridium 150-170. With my skills (close to maxed Rohk and Mega) and setup, from 150km Spike is the best ammo to use on the Rokh anyway, so for all practical purpose is is likely the one that will be loaded. So I have choice between a Rokh doing 300dps up to 224km optimal (+29 falloff so hitting to max lock range is possible) and to a Mega doing 400dps up to 183km optimal (+29 falloff). Mega is the best boat 90% of time, more damage, more tracking, smaller sig radius. Now the advantage of the Rokh is that it got much more effective HP, almost twice actually, and most of it in shield, which is very good for it's survivability. /facepalm 5 Step guide how to remove my hand from my face: 1) Buy Rokh 2) Fit Rails 3) Put CN lead in them 4) Fit 3 Tracking Computers 5) Put 2 optimal range scripts in them, leave the 3rd empty You can turn off the two scripted tracking computers to alter your range from about 100km to about 130km, you will do more damage than a mega tossing spike and have way way way better tracking. -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Veryez	Posted - 2008.07.22 21:00:00 - [76] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Wait, you seriously dont understand the resist advantage of T2 minmatar? Ok I'll explain this but it is funny because this is the race you fly. You should understand it. You see minmatar T2 ships get additional EM and Thermal resists because amarr are their enemy. Basically all minmatar T2 ships are also shield tanked (except muninn). Shields have weak thermal and em resists inherently. This means most minmatar T2 ships have very good distributed shield resists. So not only do your recons have an awsome ew (long webs, wich is awsome in the age of nanos) but your recon shield resists make it very easy to just slap two extenders and have great buffer while ships like curse are boned when they take fire from lasers specially. Arbi? Omen? Maller? Get real, the only usable cruisers are rupture, stabber, vexor, thorax, blackbird. Mimatar have 2 great cruisers. Amarr have half a cruiser (arbi is half a point, rest zero tbh). My point about the curse is that it has no role. If you wanna kill nanos you get minni recons. If you want to jam stuff you get ecm boats. If you want a solo boat you get a sacrilege. And let me tell you this. Curse is actually broken just like ishtar is. There is no practical fit that works that doesnt involve nano and when ccp nerf nano some day that ship is going to suck azz. I'm just saying small disadvantages of some minmatar BS is not really huge compared to all the advantages minmatar have in many other ship classes. It is not a huge deal. Its not like your whole race is broken. Its small issues like ammo of arties. Not reason to give tempests 7 turrets and the agility of a cruiser. Its used by many people and its not a crap ship as some try to portrait it. You post this trash in a post about fleet battleships? Get this through your skull, balance does not, nor should it ever take into account different ship classes. Not ever. Just because minmatar cruisers are somewhat good, that should have no impact on carrier balance. It doesn't work, they are used in different scenarios and require different skill sets. Want to talk about balance, stick with the same ship class. This thread is about FLEET Snipers, not HACs, not recons and not cruisers. Bottom line, the minmatar line does not have a dedicated sniper ship - they don't. The Tempest and the Mael can do the job, but they are not optimal for it at all. You might wish to argue that, but before you do remember getting shot at by a ship does not make you an expert at flying it. Best fleet snipers: I would argue the Apoc is better than the Rohk mainly due to the no reloading issue since lag always seems to be present, but the Rohk is good (I use it with my other character). Either of then are better than the mega and all 3 are better than any ship with artillery which is fairly lacking, especially when fights grow to larger numbers.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.22 21:11:00 - [77] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I'm just saying small disadvantages of some minmatar BS is not really huge compared to all the advantages minmatar have in many other ship classes. It is not a huge deal. Its not like your whole race is broken. Its small issues like ammo of arties. Not reason to give tempests 7 turrets and the agility of a cruiser. Its used by many people and its not a crap ship as some try to portrait it. Small disadvantages? Like a tier 3 BS being out-DPSed, out-manuevered, out-EHP'd by a tier 1 BS? No, really. Maybe you don't ever pay attention when numbers get posted. You "opinion" this and "opinion" that, saying your cruisers are crap and not worth a "full point" when it's obviously not true. That's great and all if you're on the CCP balancing team, but eve isn't balanced upon how you portray it to be. I also find it truly sickening that you constantly try and belittle the problems that are clear and evident. You want amarr to be the super-race? Fine, i'll be fully specced in 3 months. Guess what. By that time I'll be able to proficiently fly both minmatar AND amarr ships. Why should I care which ones are better? I'll tell you what. I can already fly(read: step into) all amarr subcapitals, so how about in a few months I'll tell you which ones truly need help. I'd suggest you find yourself some minmatar ships to fly since they're the "uber cruiser" race. Maybe you can actually be objective instead completely opinionated and self-centered.
Stoffl LFC	Posted - 2008.07.22 21:17:00 - [78] Originally by: Haradgrim /facepalm 5 Step guide how to remove my hand from my face: 1) Buy Rokh 2) Fit Rails 3) Put CN lead in them 4) Fit 3 Tracking Computers 5) Put 2 optimal range scripts in them, leave the 3rd empty You can turn off the two scripted tracking computers to alter your range from about 100km to about 130km, you will do more damage than a mega tossing spike and have way way way better tracking. That gives me 369dps @146+30km (3 Magstabs,3 Trackning Computer) Apoc does 404dps with Navy Infrared @ 144+25km, better tracking (1xTracking Enhancer II) With Aurora it's 401dps@216+25km Originally by: BiggestT a rokh sittig at 150km is like a zealot sitting at 35km doesnt happen, they mostly sit further Sure, but same rule applies for the Apoc. Originally by: Lubomir Penev With 8 Tachyon, Aurora, 3 heatsinks, mwd fitted I come down to between 1min20 and 1min35 of continuous firing depending on rest of fit, with all level 5 starting at full cap. Guns draw 82cap/s, even a heavy cap booster that you don't have the grid to fit anyway would not sustain that. That's with the MWD running. A Rokh with 3 Magstabs, Spike and MWD running caps out after 1min 13s. ;)
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.07.22 21:18:00 - [79] Originally by: Veryez Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Wait, you seriously dont understand the resist advantage of T2 minmatar? Ok I'll explain this but it is funny because this is the race you fly. You should understand it. You see minmatar T2 ships get additional EM and Thermal resists because amarr are their enemy. Basically all minmatar T2 ships are also shield tanked (except muninn). Shields have weak thermal and em resists inherently. This means most minmatar T2 ships have very good distributed shield resists. So not only do your recons have an awsome ew (long webs, wich is awsome in the age of nanos) but your recon shield resists make it very easy to just slap two extenders and have great buffer while ships like curse are boned when they take fire from lasers specially. Arbi? Omen? Maller? Get real, the only usable cruisers are rupture, stabber, vexor, thorax, blackbird. Mimatar have 2 great cruisers. Amarr have half a cruiser (arbi is half a point, rest zero tbh). My point about the curse is that it has no role. If you wanna kill nanos you get minni recons. If you want to jam stuff you get ecm boats. If you want a solo boat you get a sacrilege. And let me tell you this. Curse is actually broken just like ishtar is. There is no practical fit that works that doesnt involve nano and when ccp nerf nano some day that ship is going to suck azz. I'm just saying small disadvantages of some minmatar BS is not really huge compared to all the advantages minmatar have in many other ship classes. It is not a huge deal. Its not like your whole race is broken. Its small issues like ammo of arties. Not reason to give tempests 7 turrets and the agility of a cruiser. Its used by many people and its not a crap ship as some try to portrait it. You post this trash in a post about fleet battleships? Get this through your skull, balance does not, nor should it ever take into account different ship classes. Not ever. Just because minmatar cruisers are somewhat good, that should have no impact on carrier balance. It doesn't work, they are used in different scenarios and require different skill sets. Want to talk about balance, stick with the same ship class. This thread is about FLEET Snipers, not HACs, not recons and not cruisers. Bottom line, the minmatar line does not have a dedicated sniper ship - they don't. The Tempest and the Mael can do the job, but they are not optimal for it at all. You might wish to argue that, but before you do remember getting shot at by a ship does not make you an expert at flying it. Lolowned. Well said. Amazing how a thread can be about fleet snipers and people start talking omgnerfVagabond. Then again... Astro and I have derailed many a topic and ended up talking about the Tempest, so I guess I can understand how it happens.
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.07.22 21:34:00 - [80] Originally by: Haradgrim 5 Step guide how to remove my hand from my face: 1) Buy Rokh 2) Fit Rails 3) Put CN lead in them 4) Fit 3 Tracking Computers 5) Put 2 optimal range scripts in them, leave the 3rd empty You can turn off the two scripted tracking computers to alter your range from about 100km to about 130km, you will do more damage than a mega tossing spike and have way way way better tracking. My Rokh only have one range enhencing mod, a Tracking Enhencer? What do I for in mids beside the mandatory mwd + 2 sensor boosters? 2 large extenders and an invuln. Rokh best feature is that it can have a pretty decent tank for a sniper, I make use of it. -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine.

SonOf X51	Posted - 2008.07.22 21:34:00 - [81] Hrm, gonna ignore the current debate and state the ship that gets my vote for best fleet sniper... Nightmare ^_^
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 21:49:00 - [82] Originally by: Veryez You post this trash in a post about fleet battleships? Get this through your skull, balance does not, nor should it ever take into account different ship classes. Not ever. Just because minmatar cruisers are somewhat good, that should have no impact on carrier balance. It doesn't work, they are used in different scenarios and require different skill sets. You should get into your skull that racial perks sometimes work in favor of some ship classes and against other ship classes. That is why you cant just blindly ignore all other ship classes. If ships were balanced according to your logic then curse would need same t2 resist distribution as huginns for example because they both passive shield tank with not much room for covering any holes. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 21:50:00 - [83] Originally by: Boz Well Lolowned. Well said. Amazing how a thread can be about fleet snipers and people start talking omgnerfVagabond. Then again... Astro and I have derailed many a topic and ended up talking about the Tempest, so I guess I can understand how it happens. I didnt say nerf vaga, did I? Now look who is derailing. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.22 21:53:00 - [84] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 22/07/2008 21:53:35 Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I'm just saying small disadvantages of some minmatar BS is not really huge compared to all the advantages minmatar have in many other ship classes. It is not a huge deal. Its not like your whole race is broken. Its small issues like ammo of arties. Not reason to give tempests 7 turrets and the agility of a cruiser. Its used by many people and its not a crap ship as some try to portrait it. Small disadvantages? Like a tier 3 BS being out-DPSed, out-manuevered, out-EHP'd by a tier 1 BS? No, really. Maybe you don't ever pay attention when numbers get posted. You "opinion" this and "opinion" that, saying your cruisers are crap and not worth a "full point" when it's obviously not true. That's great and all if you're on the CCP balancing team, but eve isn't balanced upon how you portray it to be. I also find it truly sickening that you constantly try and belittle the problems that are clear and evident. You want amarr to be the super-race? Fine, i'll be fully specced in 3 months. Guess what. By that time I'll be able to proficiently fly both minmatar AND amarr ships. Why should I care which ones are better? I'll tell you what. I can already fly(read: step into) all amarr subcapitals, so how about in a few months I'll tell you which ones truly need help. I'd suggest you find yourself some minmatar ships to fly since they're the "uber cruiser" race. Maybe you can actually be objective instead completely opinionated and self-centered. As I said above if racial perks that work against a ship class in each race needs to be balanced (like you would want it) lets start by: -giving curse additional em and thrm resists instead of kin and exp -lets give speed bonuses to our dictors aswell, because speed is king in this class -lets give dictors turrets instead of missiles, also better -etc etc etc and now youre gonna say "well those listed problems are really huge problems for those ships". Well, ditto. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Stoffl LFC	Posted - 2008.07.22 21:54:00 - [85] Originally by: SonOf X51 Hrm, gonna ignore the current debate and state the ship that gets my vote for best fleet sniper... Nightmare ^_^ True, 500dps at up to 200km optimal is quite nasty.
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.07.22 22:03:00 - [86] Originally by: Stoffl Originally by: Lubomir Penev With 8 Tachyon, Aurora, 3 heatsinks, mwd fitted I come down to between 1min20 and 1min35 of continuous firing depending on rest of fit, with all level 5 starting at full cap. Guns draw 82cap/s, even a heavy cap booster that you don't have the grid to fit anyway would not sustain that. That's with the MWD running. No that's without the MWD running, this thread is confusing enough without wrong facts. Tachybaddon not really viable without a guardian babysitting it IMHO -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.22 22:45:00 - [87] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer As I said above if racial perks that work against a ship class in each race needs to be balanced (like you would want it) lets start by: -giving curse additional em and thrm resists instead of kin and exp -lets give speed bonuses to our dictors aswell, because speed is king in this class -lets give dictors turrets instead of missiles, also better -etc etc etc and now youre gonna say "well those listed problems are really huge problems for those ships". Well, ditto. You want the curse to have more balanced resists? Fine with me. Speed bonuses? Only if you give the mael a resist bonus, as it's the only matari BS that's worth a damn as a fleet ship. Turrets/missiles on dictor? I think you're just haggling now, as dictors' only real job is to lay down bubbles. This is more in tune with the maker of the ship than the ship itself. I don't ask for matari battleships to have more EHP, or even more DPS (a slight boost wouldn't hurt ). More range (an optimal), some ammo switches and I'm golden with autocannons. Artillery... need an overhaul. Clip size isn't going to do it. More alpha? That's fine. It won't be great for fleets but it will capitalize on our "hit and run" style and low numbers combat. TL,DR: I don't want minmatar ships to be fixed by making them more like working models (as you propose), rather by enhancing their current options and flavor. Seriously, I invite you to take a read on the last few pages of the matari BS thread. I think you're overgeneralizing and putting words into our mouths.
Stoffl LFC	Posted - 2008.07.23 05:39:00 - [88] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Stoffl Originally by: Lubomir Penev With 8 Tachyon, Aurora, 3 heatsinks, mwd fitted I come down to between 1min20 and 1min35 of continuous firing depending on rest of fit, with all level 5 starting at full cap. Guns draw 82cap/s, even a heavy cap booster that you don't have the grid to fit anyway would not sustain that. That's with the MWD running. No that's without the MWD running, this thread is confusing enough without wrong facts. Tachybaddon not really viable without a guardian babysitting it IMHO ?!? WTH are you pulling the Abaddon from now, you quoted/answered discussions about the Apoc. Anyhow, yes Abaddon as a fleetsniper is a PITA, but it works to some degree. 2 x Energy discharge rigs, a medium capbooster with 400's and a PDS II in the lows = cap-stable 501DPS@157+25.
Veryez	Posted - 2008.07.23 05:40:00 - [89] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You should get into your skull that racial perks sometimes work in favor of some ship classes and against other ship classes. That is why you cant just blindly ignore all other ship classes. If ships were balanced according to your logic then curse would need same t2 resist distribution as huginns for example because they both passive shield tank with not much room for covering any holes. Which racial perk does minmatar fleet ships have? This is a post about fleet ships, so what perk are you refering to? Do you really think it's ok for minmatar to have inferior fleet ships because they have good cruisers? Does that even remotely sound like a good position for CCP to take? "Hey minmatar players - don't bother training any ships or weapons systems above command ships - we think your other ships are good enough, so anything larger than that is BY DESIGN inferior." I'm sure minmatar players would jump for joy if CCP actually put that out as an official statement. No, instead I think CCP wants ships to be relatively balanced against each other. While your ship might be better at "A", mine would be better at "B". How many times has CCP came out and said they don't want any 'solopwnmobiles'? Quite often by my count. When this relative balance is upset, CCP makes changes, because as we all know EvE isn't perfect. There was a time when artillery had a respectible alpha which balanced it against other weapon systems, those days are over. The way EvE is played today, with passive tanks, ships good at specific roles, EW very weak on non-bonused ships, and scripts to run midslot modules, Artillery's disadvantages are too great. Add in that there are no minmatar battleships with range or tracking bonuses and lo and behold - minmatar fleet ships are lacking. There's the rub, CCP hasn't nerfed minmatar fleet ships directly since revelations, but all the other nerfs have added up to a pretty big nerf to long range projectile combat. And never once did CCP say, "It's ok to nerf artillery since the vaga is a good HAC." While I have no experience flying a curse, I can tell you my huginn isn't a very good fleet ship at all (doesn't even have the grid to fit artillery). And that's not even mentioning the fact that minmatar recons are normally down one bonus to their counterparts since almost every setup I see doesn't use a target painter. However both must be good for something, they seem to be rather popular.
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace	Posted - 2008.07.23 06:11:00 - [90] I'm curious, what exactly keeps fleet battles at range? Why not just turn it into a huge minny cluster**** and warp in on top of your enemy fleet, autocannons and neuts blazing? Is there some type of e-honor that makes fleet fights happen at 150-200km? But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.

BiggestT Caldari Fun Inc	Posted - 2008.07.23 06:14:00 - [91] Originally by: Spaztick I'm curious, what exactly keeps fleet battles at range? Why not just turn it into a huge minny cluster**** and warp in on top of your enemy fleet, autocannons and neuts blazing? Is there some type of e-honor that makes fleet fights happen at 150-200km? being 200km away is safer than being in hte middle of a blob poudly annoying fc's since 2007 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=828123 caldari drone boat enthusiast
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.23 06:16:00 - [92] Originally by: Spaztick I'm curious, what exactly keeps fleet battles at range? Why not just turn it into a huge minny cluster**** and warp in on top of your enemy fleet, autocannons and neuts blazing? Is there some type of e-honor that makes fleet fights happen at 150-200km? It's often about the simple fact that closing to blster/ac range would result in explosion. The only way around this is to use a cloaked ship to sneak up to them and then warp to that member. It MIGHT work from time to time but unless you have a lot of spare ships handy for the job it won't be pretty. (A plus is those close range battleships have a hell of a lot more EHP/DPS). At worst you'll throw the opposing fleet into disarrary as you get slaughtered. At best it's a masterful plan. Really though the whole thing falls apart in fleet combat - lots of perfectly viable strategies go out the window simply because lag makes it difficult to coordinate anything more complex than "everyone shoot at the primary". In my book lag is what kills fleet warfare for me. As it is I find it to be a video game version of russian roulette where nothing I do is going to really affect my odds of survival. If there were a magic "make the lag stop" button fleet warfare would be a great deal more fluid just because there ARE more viable options.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.23 06:24:00 - [93] Originally by: BiggestT Originally by: Spaztick I'm curious, what exactly keeps fleet battles at range? Why not just turn it into a huge minny cluster**** and warp in on top of your enemy fleet, autocannons and neuts blazing? Is there some type of e-honor that makes fleet fights happen at 150-200km? being 200km away is safer than being in hte middle of a blob Not really if you think about it. If everyone in that blob can hit you at 200 km, it stands to reason you are just as safe at 0km. Safer in fact because most of those ships will have WRETCHED tracking (425mm II with Spike L - .0002 rad/s tracking - if a ship starts to MOVE you'll start missing, at close range a non MWD caldari ship can outrun that kind of tracking. Really the problem is coordinating the strike. Afterall you have to have a LOT of ships come in at point blank range in a hurry and start wrecking the party. In laggy situations coordination is difficult at best - thus the reason most fleet combat invovles waiting for someone to tell you who to shoot at next and waiting to explode.
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace	Posted - 2008.07.23 06:25:00 - [94] I had an idea! EMP or Thermal smartbomb fitted BS's designed to tank their own smartbomb damage. Spread them out enough though and if the smartbombs don't kill the enemy fleet the lag sure will. I see your point. But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.23 06:27:00 - [95] Originally by: Spaztick I had an idea! EMP or Thermal smartbomb fitted BS's designed to tank their own smartbomb damage. Spread them out enough though and if the smartbombs don't kill the enemy fleet the lag sure will. I see your point. If you could reasonable hit more than one ship per smartbomb it's not a bad idea. Given the 6k range you may be able to hit a few. I personally don't like to get closer than 5km to another ship - exploding because you snag on a friendly ship sucks.
BiggestT Caldari Fun Inc	Posted - 2008.07.23 09:52:00 - [96] Originally by: Derek Sigres If everyone in that blob can hit you at 200 km, it stands to reason you are just as safe at 0km. This statememnt makes no sense, ur suggesting that there will be snipers in the blobb? no, the snipers will be at 150-200km away, so ur safer coz no-one can get to you for a while rather than when ur at 0km poudly annoying fc's since 2007 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=828123 caldari drone boat enthusiast
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.07.23 11:42:00 - [97] Originally by: Stoffl Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Stoffl Originally by: Lubomir Penev With 8 Tachyon, Aurora, 3 heatsinks, mwd fitted I come down to between 1min20 and 1min35 of continuous firing depending on rest of fit, with all level 5 starting at full cap. Guns draw 82cap/s, even a heavy cap booster that you don't have the grid to fit anyway would not sustain that. That's with the MWD running. No that's without the MWD running, this thread is confusing enough without wrong facts. Tachybaddon not really viable without a guardian babysitting it IMHO ?!? WTH are you pulling the Abaddon from now, you quoted/answered discussions about the Apoc. Anyhow, yes Abaddon as a fleetsniper is a PITA, but it works to some degree. 2 x Energy discharge rigs, a medium capbooster with 400's and a PDS II in the lows = cap-stable 501DPS@157+25. My bad, thought it was Abaddon from the start. I don't think anyone doubt the apoc is a very good sniper nowadays. -- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.23 17:05:00 - [98] Originally by: BiggestT Originally by: Derek Sigres If everyone in that blob can hit you at 200 km, it stands to reason you are just as safe at 0km. This statememnt makes no sense, ur suggesting that there will be snipers in the blobb? no, the snipers will be at 150-200km away, so ur safer coz no-one can get to you for a while rather than when ur at 0km Given the question was pointed at "why fleet engagements happen at range" then the answer is a resounding of COURSE there will be snipers. Yes, many sniper ships probably aren't setup to hit targets at 200km - but rokhs certainly can. Given most sniper ships are being forced to use long range t2 ammo (which butchers tracking) IF you can get to point blank range you'll find that their targeting problems are going to be TERRIBLE until they switch ammo (which means anyone who switches ammo to hit you can't hit your fleet until they swap back - and in laggy fleet siuations it can take 20+ seconds easy to do each swap. But like I have already said - lag is primarily what keeps trickery like this from occuring. It's quite difficult to coordinate even simple tasks when it takes 5 or more seconds for any action to register.


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