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ghost st
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Posted - 2008.07.19 12:57:00 -
[1]
Lately ive been finding myself playing closer and closer to downtime (im a us player) just so i can get some small gang (10 man or so) pvp. A year or so ago i would logon right after work and start the pew pew, and recently ive been logging on later and later so i can get the same pvp experience.
People are always complaining about blobbing and nanoes, but i think blobbing is a symptom of this overcrowding, and that nanos are just a way to combat the ever-growing blobs. These people always want blobs and nanoes nerfed but nerfing them is only targeting a symptom, not targeting the problem.
CCP is also working on getting better servers, this will help with handling the larger amounts of players online, and will mean less lag for everyone, but with eve constantly growing it will only be a temporary fix, that only targets a symptom of the overcrowding issue.
I think that CCP should be looking for more ways to relieve the overcrowding issue, rather than just trying to fix the symptoms.
One of the main reasons for the overcrowding is the relative low amount of people each system can sustain. Even under the best conditions a single solar systems resources (ratting, mining, plexing) can only accommodate about 40-50 players a day. Stations increase this somewhat, but were talking about a system with good resources. Which represents a very small portion of the systems out there.
So as an estimate id say that the average 0.0 system can support 20 players a day. Alot of people will argue that the majority of these systems go unused,and are just kept as trophy space for large alliances, but the map tells a much different story, with the average 0.0 system having about 200 rat kills per day. So its safe to assume that the reason alliances expand is due to resources, and that one of the main reasons alliance have wars is to focus on expansion for more resources, and alliances that are stagnant for too long will shrink in numbers that reflect the amount of players sustainable by those resources., or will disband altogether.
This lack of resources may also explain the reason why empire is so crowded, it may not be the case that majority of those players are afraid of 0.0, but that more resources are available in empire space. And those players are not able to adequately compete for the lesser amount of resources in 0.0
Ive wandered a little from my main goal, which is small gang and solo pewpew (and also nonconsentual pew pew  ) and not being able to get it at a time that is particularly convenient for me.
I think that in order to get rid of these blobs, (and the other symptoms of overcrowing) that CCP needs to focus on adding resources and content to 0.0. And be able to make the space itself complex and be able to support as many people as the systems in empire. (or at least be able to support more people), but do it in a way which most preserves the sandbox of 0.0 (meaning less npc content, and more stuff for players to be able to develop).
But just blindly throwing more stuff in there will only exacerbate the issue, more raw resources will mean more people, which will mean bigger blobs, that are able to form quicker.
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Zephyr Rengate
dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.07.19 13:11:00 -
[2]
EvE is dead...
 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
I will not liek human meat but the naerest I tried is human chesse. I don't want to tried again ...
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Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.19 13:19:00 -
[3]
Originally by: ghost st
So as an estimate id say that the average 0.0 system can support 20 players a day. Alot of people will argue that the majority of these systems go unused,and are just kept as trophy space for large alliances, but the map tells a much different story, with the average 0.0 system having about 200 rat kills per day.
There are far less than 20 players per system per day in 0.0. A single person ratting a few hours can easily account for 200 npc kills. A single decent cosmic anomoly can spawn 100 rats. As spawn rates are fixed 10 people wont kill rats any faster than 2 or 3 (unless its a really big system).
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gfldex
Franklin Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.19 14:01:00 -
[4]
Seams like it's getting better.
--
There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.19 14:11:00 -
[5]
HelloKitty Online looks promising...
Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar? |
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RigelKentaurus
Flying Tartiflette
Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2008.07.19 14:18:00 -
[6]
Originally by: ghost st
but i think blobbing is a symptom of this overcrowding, and that nanos are just a way to combat the ever-growing blobs.
No, blobbing and nanos are exactly the same thing: "I'm scared of losing my precious ship, so I'll try to make is so that my opponent can't hurt me"
_________
Someday, EVE may look like this. |
justsometrader
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Posted - 2008.07.19 20:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Chribba
HelloKitty Online looks promising...
no sorry Chribba but HKO is broken atm since the blue kitten can grow plants way too fast.....
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Black Leather
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Posted - 2008.07.19 20:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Chribba
HelloKitty Online looks promising...
Tell us all about it when you finish your first month
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.19 20:48:00 -
[9]
blob are there because it is possible to lock whole regions with blobs in only a few key points, so people use blobs to lock them and blobs to smash the defending blob.
Nano are the alternate system to pass defending blobs.
0.0 resources: 0.0 is limited at the player level of resources as the content is mostly geared for corporation/alliance. Currently the big 0.0 reward is in moon mining, but that is done at a corporation level and the returns aren't always shared at the single player level.
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Karanth
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.19 20:49:00 -
[10]
EVE is crowded in certain places, because people tend to be stupid. Meanwhile, there is lots of systems that never get visited.
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Batchie
Minmatar
NOTI Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.19 20:50:00 -
[11]
Can i have your stuff?
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.19 20:58:00 -
[12]
Quote:
and that nanos are just a way to combat the ever-growing blobs
That horse don't run...And people blob because of the ever-growing Nanos too, see?
But, Yes EVE is too friggin crowded.
The more crowded it gets the less options there are for small corps and small Allainces, assuming you don't want to get mashed, absorbed or pay rent.
N00bs have a much harder time now too, not sp-wise, but game play wise mainly due to the ridiculous number of Empire macro miners, flippers, baiters, n00b deccers and general asshats all concentrated in Empire. In other words, crowded.
More people on the server, much much more macro activity of all kinds, same amount of space since forever, = meh.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.19 21:30:00 -
[13]
Most of 0.0 is rather empty to be honest. There's a few station systems with high populations in but about the only actual prescence most of the time is that of farmers 
I was in part of a gang that raided from a low-sec station all the way to the Goonswarm HQ. Everyone died except me in my Drake (because nobody had bothered to point me)
Safest route back to empire? 43 Jumps, through 0.0, unscouted in an un-nano'd BC.
Thought I was never going to make it, but I didn't hit a single camp or anything. Just farmer ravens in every other system
So no, space isn't crowded. Hubs are crowded.
...
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.07.19 21:35:00 -
[14]
Some 0.0 systems may be empty, that's because they can be reached by a ganksquad in minutes. Remove the smuggler gates already, they were put in back in -04 when the servers peaked at 7k people.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.19 21:38:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 19/07/2008 21:42:09
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Some 0.0 systems may be empty, that's because they can be reached by a ganksquad in minutes. Remove the smuggler gates already, they were put in back in -04 when the servers peaked at 7k people.
You mean when entire regions were only accessible via 1 bottleneck system? (hello Stain+Paragon Soul)
...
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Sir Drake
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Posted - 2008.07.19 21:39:00 -
[16]
tbh i thought it was too crowded already when EVE hit the 10k player mark and it went downhill rapidly afterwards. 
-------------------------------------------------------
Sig was removed due to derogatory comments towards a group of people. -Karl Chroimcer
I like that.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.19 21:40:00 -
[17]
More NPC sov 0.0 regions.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.19 21:44:00 -
[18]
Nanos are a symptom of the blob - when most of our targets run around in 40-50 man groups, and we can only field say 15 pilots on our best day, either we avoid those blobs or we go nano and get some kills.
Pretty simple, really.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.19 21:49:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Soporo on 19/07/2008 21:49:28
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Nanos are a symptom of the blob - when most of our targets run around in 40-50 man groups, and we can only field say 15 pilots on our best day, either we avoid those blobs or we go nano and get some kills.
Pretty simple, really.
And blobs are a symptom of the nano.
And if I and my pals (or any other group of t1 guys) are around they say wtf look at all the nanophags lets blob up seeing as how few if any of us can nano.
Pretty simple, really.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.07.19 21:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 19/07/2008 21:42:09
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Some 0.0 systems may be empty, that's because they can be reached by a ganksquad in minutes. Remove the smuggler gates already, they were put in back in -04 when the servers peaked at 7k people.
You mean when entire regions were only accessible via 1 bottleneck system? (hello Stain+Paragon Soul)
Still liked it better than the current situation where these gates on top of jumpclones allow everyone access everywhere all the time, now.
Less is more isn't a big saying on Iceland that's for sure. Creating many and smaller jumps to bypass the all too obvious meatgrinders would be preferable, spreading them out. Instead of like now placing equal grinders on the very rim of known space removing any sense of being in deep space.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.19 22:13:00 -
[21]
Seriously, I want 4 more NPC sov regions. Alliances can't claim sov and cyno jam them so you won't get so many cap-blobs.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
fairimear
Gallente
S.A.S
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.07.19 22:45:00 -
[22]
EVE is very overcrowded.
tactically and logistically a lot of EVE systems are unpractical to spread the population into.
0.0 would be a mess if it got any more crowded and would become a lot harder to operate in. a lot harder to make money in.
The increased numbers in a un-policed area would result in a great deal more factions that are hostile to each other and as such make 0.0 harder to get around.
this would impact both money made in 0.0 and the resources it provides to empire.
The fact is CCP already recognizes 0.0s inability to support the size of the population. HOW? missions. the very fact we have lvl4 missions that so many people spend all their time running in empire proves that eve needs more resources coming into empire than 0.0 already provides.
Take away all the minerals, loot, money and all the general stuff the missions in empire provide and there would be a drastic shortage in resources of every type very fast.
SO yes eve is over saturated.
If you want to argue with me feel free and i will post a very in depth study of the situation for you. but i wont until then because it would be so long winded no one would read it. And ANY dev can feel free to tell me i am wrong. I say i will retract my sentiment if they prove it.
As for solutions. well. there are several choices. Ideally we would have a 10 fold increase in 0.0 regions. None of them can be further out from empire than any current as it becomes more and more impractical for population dispersal the more you get away from empire.
To aid this you would need a alteration to the pos mechanic so that current 0.0 powers cant claim large areas of it by spamming towers that they don't care about but fuel to stop other having a chance.
Access to these regions and all deep 0.0 would have to be significant/increased.
Yet it would have to be tactically viable with short pipelines leading through them. yet having constellations off the pipes that are easily defended. maybe 1 system that leads into 4-5 other system dead ends.
this would allow for multiple alliances in 1 region yet preserve the safety of a area and as such encourage economic activity's.
To counter the camping mechanic bombers and cyno bridges would need balancing so that a hostile force could brake through.
Makeing your npc hunters SS. |
bio spore
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Posted - 2008.07.19 23:40:00 -
[23]
Most 00 systems are useless, you have to look at the true sec rating.
Most 00 systems are -0.1 to -0.4 these make up the vast majority of 00 systems and they are crap, there is nothing to mine in these systems and the rats are to low to bother with.
In fact yo need a minium of a -0.6 system in my experience to find ark or bistot in it, these systems are not very common and as such they are the 00 hubs.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.20 01:40:00 -
[24]
Originally by: fairimear
Edit for npc regions.
This is a very very bad idea. As a npc station area is very very hard to force any one out of.
Stain empire is a perfect example. Not to be starting any flame wars but they like many alliances have not always deserved the space they hold. (even if they do now)
But they have resisted several attempt to move them out because they operate out of a region with npc stations.
They live in NPC stations because it's practically impossible for smaller entities to hold on to Outposts; it's either Nap up half of EVE, become someone else's pet or get flattened by the nearest 50-dreadnought Steamroller because you "don't deserve your space"
NPC stations are important because they allow people to maintain a presence in 0.0 without having to participate in POS-Warfare and all the grinds associated with it.
...
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.20 06:44:00 -
[25]
Quote:
NPC stations are important because they allow people to maintain a presence in 0.0 without having to participate in POS-Warfare and all the grinds associated with it.
I support this notion. Anything that puts a thumb in the eye of POS warfare/Sov should be cherished.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.07.20 06:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: fairimear
Edit for npc regions.
This is a very very bad idea. As a npc station area is very very hard to force any one out of.
Stain empire is a perfect example. Not to be starting any flame wars but they like many alliances have not always deserved the space they hold. (even if they do now)
But they have resisted several attempt to move them out because they operate out of a region with npc stations.
They live in NPC stations because it's practically impossible for smaller entities to hold on to Outposts; it's either Nap up half of EVE, become someone else's pet or get flattened by the nearest 50-dreadnought Steamroller because you "don't deserve your space"
NPC stations are important because they allow people to maintain a presence in 0.0 without having to participate in POS-Warfare and all the grinds associated with it.
*sigh* I wish there were more npc stations in 0.0. Would make things far more interesting than they are now. |
Admiral Pelleon
Caldari
White Shadow Imperium
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Posted - 2008.07.20 06:53:00 -
[27]
Agreeing with there not being enough space. TBH, there should be twice the number of systems, and systems with more resources as well. Reduce the number of pipes, put systems in their own little clusters off of pipes. etc.. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.07.20 06:55:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon
Agreeing with there not being enough space. TBH, there should be twice the number of systems, and systems with more resources as well. Reduce the number of pipes, put systems in their own little clusters off of pipes. etc..
Moar 0.0 plz CCP!  |
Taram Caldar
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.20 06:56:00 -
[29]
Originally by: bio spore
Most 00 systems are useless, you have to look at the true sec rating.
Most 00 systems are -0.1 to -0.4 these make up the vast majority of 00 systems and they are crap, there is nothing to mine in these systems and the rats are to low to bother with.
In fact yo need a minium of a -0.6 system in my experience to find ark or bistot in it, these systems are not very common and as such they are the 00 hubs.
^^^ This TBQFH is the biggest reason 0.0 is so damn messed up.
Combine that with Cynojammers & Jump Bridges and too few alliances control far TOO MUCH space. Back in the day a region would be populated by loads of smaller entities due to the logistics of getting fleets to various areas of a region. Now? Not so... just jump bridge from your main hubs to wherever the trouble/invader is and blob them out. The smaller groups are steadily being forced out of 0.0 because of this. Thus making 0.0 even emptier and causing more crowding in NPC areas and lowsec/highsec. |
Fabien Aldric
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.20 07:18:00 -
[30]
Originally by: justsometrader
Originally by: Chribba
HelloKitty Online looks promising...
no sorry Chribba but HKO is broken atm since the blue kitten can grow plants way too fast.....
kill yourself, now.
THE STATE PREVAILS! |
Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.07.20 07:22:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon
Agreeing with there not being enough space. TBH, there should be twice the number of systems, and systems with more resources as well. Reduce the number of pipes, put systems in their own little clusters off of pipes. etc..
Moar 0.0 plz CCP!
Not just more 0.0, but make it harder to get to. I'm talking about 100+ jumps to empire, make it so huge power blocks can't actually control that many systems and regions literally because fights are out of jump range from their capitals.
I'm hoping that the new 1337 server hardware and software thats in the works will make a doubling or even tripling of 0.0 space possible. I was ratting in both Providence and Branch at the ass end of the regions and had at least 1 new local pop up every few minutes. Thats a huge change from just a few months ago when I could rat, mine or plex for hours on end without a single person showing up in local. 0.0 is supposed to be the great unknown but atm its just another section of empire for all intents and purposes.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
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Posted - 2008.07.20 07:23:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon
Agreeing with there not being enough space. TBH, there should be twice the number of systems, and systems with more resources as well. Reduce the number of pipes, put systems in their own little clusters off of pipes. etc..
Moar 0.0 plz CCP!
But I just bought a copy of the Strategic maps.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.20 07:25:00 -
[33]
"Edit for npc regions.
This is a very very bad idea. As a npc station area is very very hard to force any one out of."
That's exactly why I want them. It's for this very reason that large alliances aren't interested in NPC space and consequently small alliances and corps can survive there. Being amongst lots of hostiles is exactly the boint. Some of us don't want space with nothing but blues for 20 jumps in every direction. And we certainly don't want to spend half our time drudging over POS logistics. As for Stain Empire "deserving" space, well I'll take your word for it that they don't, but nowadays "deserving space" seems to mean little more than "has a NAP list 3 pages long".
There are huge amounts of player sov 0.0, so just don't go to NPC sov if you don't like it. But increasing numbers of players would like an alternative to the 500 strong cap fleet slideshow comabt that characterises player sov 0.0
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
|
Posted - 2008.07.20 07:27:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Dibsi Dei
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon
Agreeing with there not being enough space. TBH, there should be twice the number of systems, and systems with more resources as well. Reduce the number of pipes, put systems in their own little clusters off of pipes. etc..
Moar 0.0 plz CCP!
But I just bought a copy of the Strategic maps.
Yeah. This alone bodes ill for any additions for the 0.0 regions. But we can still dream!
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Stormking
Carleton Partnership
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Posted - 2008.07.20 08:12:00 -
[35]
/signed
Eve needs more space. There's no sense of adventure anymore. Everywhere you go, there are tons of people, the plexes are being run, the belts are stripped... |
justsometrader
|
Posted - 2008.07.20 08:24:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Fabien Aldric
Originally by: justsometrader
Originally by: Chribba
HelloKitty Online looks promising...
no sorry Chribba but HKO is broken atm since the blue kitten can grow plants way too fast.....
kill yourself, now.
why it really DOES
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Admiral Pelleon
Caldari
White Shadow Imperium
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Posted - 2008.07.20 08:42:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon
Agreeing with there not being enough space. TBH, there should be twice the number of systems, and systems with more resources as well. Reduce the number of pipes, put systems in their own little clusters off of pipes. etc..
Moar 0.0 plz CCP!
Not just more 0.0, but make it harder to get to. I'm talking about 100+ jumps to empire, make it so huge power blocks can't actually control that many systems and regions literally because fights are out of jump range from their capitals.
I'm hoping that the new 1337 server hardware and software thats in the works will make a doubling or even tripling of 0.0 space possible. I was ratting in both Providence and Branch at the ass end of the regions and had at least 1 new local pop up every few minutes. Thats a huge change from just a few months ago when I could rat, mine or plex for hours on end without a single person showing up in local. 0.0 is supposed to be the great unknown but atm its just another section of empire for all intents and purposes.
Completely agreed. The decent systems are constantly occupied, and the traffic is 10x more than it was a year ago.
________
Originally by: Tarminic
I believe your mother should have re-rolled her birth control.
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.20 11:47:00 -
[38]
I'm on the fence with this one.
The 0.0 out there has remained almost constant over the last 5 years of the game's history, save for the addition of the drone regions - its easy to realize that with our continued growth, the average density of 0.0 systems will only continue to rise. This is bad for a number of reasons, from the continually increasing number of pilots and alliance can field (or is expected to), which in part contributes to the blob problem, as well as increased competition for resources.
However, the latter may be a reason to keep the current amount of 0.0 the way it is. Limited resources will be a source of conflict as population rises, as there are only so many belts to rat and roids to mine - if some alliance members are constantly being denied the ability to rat due to overpopulation, or being forced to share spawn ISK, internal pressure might cause civil wars. At the same time, it could put external pressure on an alliance, as its neighbor needs, forgive the reference, "more breathing space" - we could be looking at an increase in wars and fighting, even in the northern NAPfest. And at the end of the day, conflict is generally good for EVE, though granted this is blob and POS warfare we're talking about (which sucks major...)
So, in short, I don't know about expanding 0.0, especially as CCP suck as creating a real story of how it would come into existence, like what happened Black Rise. "Hey, we just found like 50 new systems, no big deal so get back to playing" - I'd rather see the space we have used more efficiently than simply add to it. The new sovereignty mechanics were supposed to do this, giving small alliances an ability to create a "castle in space" (what a bad idea), able to fortify it and slowdown the ability of large alliances to blitz them out of existence. Instead, we see the large alliances using it for their own benefit, creating empires that are extremely challenging to take on, and allowing their owners to be absent landlords.
We need to fix POS mechanics first before expanding the areas that effectively use them. Otherwise, its adding more problems to an already broken system.
Click me! You know you want to... |
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2008.07.20 12:08:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 20/07/2008 12:10:10
Personally I want more high sec across a large gap of 0.0, with it's own unique resources. This will stimulate trade and a diaspora of players.
In future any new systems added i'd like there to be secret stargates that must be probed to find and the new systems actually "discovered" by the players themselves.
Originally by: Lance Fighter
This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.20 12:20:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 20/07/2008 12:20:53
More high sec is not nessisary, and low sec is underused enough. More 0.0 is pointless too unlesss people want to fund more macro-miners. . .as it is, 0.0 is very quiet 99% of the time with a few major fleet fights here and there for moons. The difference between empire and 0.0 is what is to be blamed imo - the difference is too great. And with more people crying about ganks in high sec - the rift will grow further. If people want the population to spread out, they need to accept that Empire needs to get dangerous enough to justify a marginal risk increace to move out to low sec - as it is - that incentive does not exist because people are huddled in empire demanding more protection.
In essence, its your own damn fault you feel eve is croweded.
----
GO BLUE!! |
Troezar
Personal Vendetta
Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 13:15:00 -
[41]
Totally agree with this. having started in '03 when EVE seemed huge and people were much more "local". Travelling to the other side of EVE was a major undertaking. With hindsight it was a good thing. I would:
1, Remove the superhighways
2, Limit range of jump clones
3, Add more systems, remove some cross region gates and bring back the feeling of deep space...
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2008.07.20 14:19:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 20/07/2008 12:20:53
More high sec is not nessisary, and low sec is underused enough. More 0.0 is pointless too unlesss people want to fund more macro-miners. . .as it is, 0.0 is very quiet 99% of the time with a few major fleet fights here and there for moons. The difference between empire and 0.0 is what is to be blamed imo - the difference is too great. And with more people crying about ganks in high sec - the rift will grow further. If people want the population to spread out, they need to accept that Empire needs to get dangerous enough to justify a marginal risk increace to move out to low sec - as it is - that incentive does not exist because people are huddled in empire demanding more protection.
In essence, its your own damn fault you feel eve is croweded.
you don't make much sense.
Originally by: Lance Fighter
This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
5pinDizzy
Amarr
Ministry of War
|
Posted - 2008.07.20 14:20:00 -
[43]
Agree with most of the posts.
What is the point of nullsec space for anyone who isn't in a megaalliance anyway? seems about as useless as the rocks in lowsec belts.
Ratting - Most places I've seen had rats about the same value and strength as the ones from lvl 4 missions.
Complexes - All farmed by the existing powers that be.
Mining - Good job, now to go 60 jumps to where you can drop it off, and if you dont somehow get wasted, build something there to sell at borderline 0 profit margin. :p
Exploration - Great, you've found a something that needs a decent ship to blow up all the guards to get the reward, oh wait, a big ship will get ****d before it gets anywhere near here, you need an ultra l33t nano ship.
-At the end of all the messing around, when you calculate the vast distanced of nullsec travelled, the giant whopping piece of the isk per hour you lose if you get killed even once etc... lvl 4 missions to boost isk when you're getting short seems will always be king.
For those who mentioned it, you don't need one system for every person in the game to rat in peace, we need a local that isnt an ultimate intel tool so everytime someone enters a system in ever increasing nullsec traffic, they don't get hunted down by the first person who passes by knowing there's usually no station in system to run away to. Yes there's cloak but cloaks are for going afk in nullsec, they are useless if you're ratting as if anyone comes in on you, you'll still need to warp out. But I would never do it myself anyway as it's totally not worth it when there's lvl 4 missions. ;p
Some nice vast expanse of further out nullsec would be nice yes, somewhere where the rewards are worth it and it isn't taken over by alliance goons.
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TalonClark
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Posted - 2008.07.20 14:45:00 -
[44]
Edited by: TalonClark on 20/07/2008 14:47:20
The problem here is the jumpdrive, it made EVE, especially 0.0, smaller then it was before. Today you can move massive amounts of stuff with 0 risk everywhere in 0.0 within 2h. Thats how alliances can control that much territory, and they realy only have to control the moons in a system, because its the moons that give the money.
EVE needs to get larger again so that even with jumpdrives you cant cross eve within 4-5h. But that would take a large amount of new space and i doubt they will add it.
For the guys saying 0.0 is empty and underused: you have no idea about 0.0 resources and how they are split anyway, go back doing your missions in highsec.
Edit: key point is, as mentioned here in the thread before, that new space has to be further away from empire, because empire can always be used as starting point. So, an alliance in the south doesnt have to cross lots of 0.0 to reach the north, they just have to start from northern empire space. Thats what makes EVE so small nowadays, in combination with jumpdrives even more.
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SiJira
|
Posted - 2008.07.21 17:23:00 -
[45]
yes
there are too many targets
in other news hello kitty online looks interesting
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Slanty McGarglefist
|
Posted - 2008.07.21 17:27:00 -
[46]
EVE: Online must be the only game where its community wants less players.
__________________________________________________
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
No
Doh! |
justsometrader
|
Posted - 2008.07.21 18:19:00 -
[47]
Originally by: SiJira
yes
there are too many targets
in other news hello kitty online looks interesting
as said before....until they nerf the blue kitten and the insane plant growing speed HKO is broken
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Qduhaf
|
Posted - 2008.07.21 18:33:00 -
[48]
Couple ideas:
- get rid of local in 0.0
- introduce new 0.0 regions that restrict pos and cynos. Jump freighters, jump bridges, titan jumping, and carrier logistics have cut the traffic going through systems. and moon mining is the reason that alliances blob to control space. Bring back the old syndicate days
- change moon mining to a ship based system, require ships to expose themselves to danger in return for reward.
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.21 18:53:00 -
[49]
Edited by: McDonALTs on 21/07/2008 18:53:53
More people = More compitition = more wars or forced displacements/relocations. Just like real life 
More people = more demand = mors isk for a fixed amount of mineral mined = Miners get richer.
More space = more resources = Less compitition and demand
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Trojanman190
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 19:24:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Soporo
Edited by: Soporo on 19/07/2008 21:49:28
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Nanos are a symptom of the blob - when most of our targets run around in 40-50 man groups, and we can only field say 15 pilots on our best day, either we avoid those blobs or we go nano and get some kills.
Pretty simple, really.
And blobs are a symptom of the nano.
And if I and my pals (or any other group of t1 guys) are around they say wtf look at all the nanophags lets blob up seeing as how few if any of us can nano.
Pretty simple, really.
But it's funny that you do that because none of you actually stand a chance in your blob to do anything, they will just run away and nobody will get any kind of a fight.
The blob problem has nothing to do with nanos. The blob problem has to do with there being far more people in eve. The nano issue (because its a solution to a problem) has to do with the blob. Your statement implies that if a lone battleship came by looking for pew pew you guys would say "oh look, hes not a nano***, ok only 2 people go out to fight him, everyone else stay docked" You guys would absolutely blob the shit out of him and in this case, since he isn't nanoed, he absolutely wouldn't stand a chance.
There are guys in chat and on ts talking about the good old days all the time. They used to roam solo around in tanked command ships and tanked hacs and tanked battleships, alone, unscouted getting fun pvp. 1 on 1s, 1 on 2s... actual fights.
Blobs are occuring because, as the op suggests, eve is getting crowded. There are LOADS of people now. If you have 40 people online who wana roam you aren't going to tell any of them to stay home, so you all go out together and get called a blob, whereas the alternative is that 10 of you go out and 30 people are ****ed off and form their own 10 man gangs, all of which get steamrolled by other groups of ever's who realize that it's all about safety in numbers or safety in nanos.
This situation is made worse in 0.0 because very very little of 0.0 is worth anything. So you have hordes of players bundled into a few stations systems near the good parts of 0.0. There is PLENTY of 0.0. But 90% of it is junk where you would be better off running missions in empire as apposed to ratting in the -.1 space with 4 or 5 belts.
And lastly, another poster hit the nail on the head but I don't have room to quote him, but jump drives freaking RUINED 0.0. There is no reason to escort transports through 0.0, no reason to escort freighters through 0.0, no reason to even move battleships in gangs because you can have everything just jumped up on a jump freighter or carrier or jumped up using a jump bridge.... no risk at all + far fewer targets in 0.0.
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The Jawbreaker
Minmatar
Toys R Us
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Posted - 2008.07.21 21:19:00 -
[51]
to crowded ey? ok i¦ll quit who wants my stuff?
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Schalac
Caldari
Brotherhood of Wolves
|
Posted - 2008.07.21 21:32:00 -
[52]
I think they should open the Jovian gates. Honestly though I don't see how you consider 0.0 crowded? I Passed though about 130+ nul sec systems yesterday checking markets and seeing who has what stations locked down and at most ran into 50-60 people. Most populated system was about 40 people under goonswarm control. The rest of 0.0 was a barren wasteland where I would spend time warping from belt to belt killing 850-mil+ rats unbothered. And that was a trip starting in the great wildlands heading down to paragon soul and eventually ending up in delve space. Only places that seem to be a problem are if you are heading into a 2 stargate system, it's more than likely that you are going to get sucked off the gate into a bubble if you don't bounce from a planet or belt before going to the stargate.
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Nito Musashi
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Posted - 2008.07.21 21:36:00 -
[53]
would be nice if ccp got off their arses and and added some more decent level 4 agents to hi sec funneling all level 4 runners into 3 systems that can drag down a whole area with lag spikes and desynchs adding one or two more good agents to high sec would lest help out the lag in dod and jita and the surrounding jumps.
good 0.0 should be spaced out more or new areas with new complexes and resources far off the beaten path would be nice also. tho it is a good point that keeping resources and areas limited keeps competition going for those areas. but when you got the 1000 lb gorillas controlling the lions share of those areas it sure does make it hard for aspiring corps to make their own niche so either they joining the gorillas or they pay them off.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.21 21:45:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Qduhaf on 21/07/2008 21:45:53
More of 0.0 won't solve any of the issues that prevent putting more fun into the "game"
removing jump drives, POS (moon mining and hiding), entry chokepoints, npc station campers, cloaker everythings, short agression timers/log offskis are the problems that would and could be easily addressed if CCP wanted to add 0.0 space to get the game to be more like the "good old days". A new region with no moons, cyno jammers in every system, concord at all stations, continous 15 minute aggression timer, large number of empire gates and lots of high value ores/rats would see a lot of activity, and be a place for people that wanted 0.0 without all the big alliance downsides.
Some artificial means for controlling ever increasing blobs would be very benficial in the long run for the game, its a natural and spiralling response. A blob used to be 10 ships, now you really can't do much without at least that number and not unusaul to see 50.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.21 21:47:00 -
[55]
Quote:
But it's funny that you do that because none of you actually stand a chance in your blob to do anything, they will just run away and nobody will get any kind of a fight.
But I probably won't get killed now that I got more pals this time will I?
As for the rest of your argument, it's all smoke and mirrors (besides the fact the overcrowding causes blobs too).
If I am in a small gang and intel shows a similar gang of conventional stuff, hell yeah we want an engagement. And we'll likely go in with grinning throbbers of pounding doom. Win lose or draw, and we'll be happy.
Conversely, a nanogang takes a hugely disproportionate (in either ships or sp) amount of crap OR other Nanos to actually GOD FORBID force an engagement.
But all this has been hammered out a thousand times before, in a thousand other threads.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.21 22:02:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Qduhaf on 21/07/2008 22:02:52
Its a circular argument, nanos are in responce to blobs and blobs are in response to nanos.
If CCP introduced a fight finder, or introduced PVP missions (as part of FW?) then you would be able to get PVP that wasn't a gank or flee situation. This isn't in the spirit of the vaunted "sanbox" environment but it might put some fun into the game for those that aren't committed solely to the 0.0 mega alliance game play. Sandbox doesn't have to mean anything goes, it can mean there are many ways to play the same game.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
|
Posted - 2008.07.21 22:10:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Nito Musashi
would be nice if ccp got off their arses and and added some more decent level 4 agents to hi sec funneling all level 4 runners into 3 systems that can drag down a whole area with lag spikes and desynchs adding one or two more good agents to high sec would lest help out the lag in dod and jita and the surrounding jumps.
good 0.0 should be spaced out more or new areas with new complexes and resources far off the beaten path would be nice also. tho it is a good point that keeping resources and areas limited keeps competition going for those areas. but when you got the 1000 lb gorillas controlling the lions share of those areas it sure does make it hard for aspiring corps to make their own niche so either they joining the gorillas or they pay them off.
CCP would much rather see you wardec some mission running corps to secure the scarce resource of agents for yourselves than add more ways to risklessly accumulate SoloIskÖ. Likewise empire mining.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Admiral Pelleon
Caldari
White Shadow Imperium
Burning Horizons
|
Posted - 2008.07.21 22:12:00 -
[58]
Originally by: McDonALTs
Edited by: McDonALTs on 21/07/2008 18:53:53
More people = More compitition = more wars or forced displacements/relocations. Just like real life
More people = more demand = mors isk for a fixed amount of mineral mined = Miners get richer.
More space = more resources = Less compitition and demand
No. More people = more nap fests. Do we have more wars now or 1000 years ago? Back then everything was local, and fights to control territory were small scale. These days the only time anyone fights it involves 200,000 troops and more heavy equipment than ever.
________
Originally by: Tarminic
I believe your mother should have re-rolled her birth control.
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Molly Missile
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Posted - 2008.07.21 22:21:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Molly Missile on 21/07/2008 22:23:42
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon
These days the only time anyone fights it involves 200,000 troops and more heavy equipment than ever.
Tell it to the criminal youth gangs in my town.
The population just ignores the small stuff, because seven dead on a weekend isn't national frontpage news like it was in the days of the OK Corral.
Violence is all over, in RL and Eve.
It's just what makes the headlines that has changed.
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Artemis Rose
Eleckrostatik
|
Posted - 2008.07.21 22:35:00 -
[60]
People tend to crowd too much in the same areas.
Small alliances/new alliances tend to fail, because if they aren't specifically hand picked PvPers, they will just rat rat rat rat the day away.
As for PvP, blobbing is no where near because of overcrowding. We only have ourselves to blame for requiring the numerical advantage and the superior firepower in the majority of our engagements. A few fight against many is not the mantra of EVE.
__________________________________________________
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat. |
Xtreem
Gallente
Knockaround Guys Inc.
Exxxotic
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 00:04:00 -
[61]
its been said here already, but its jump drives that have ruined the feeling of vast 0.0 space, as all ships are jumped up by carrier, or mothership, or titan, or jump freighters.
When i first joined a 0.0 allaince, back in my good ole 3FA days, when our corp joiined they sent an escort to mhc for us as we had not been in much of it, so we went in convoy a few of our bs/cruisers and a few escorts sent from 3FA to escort about 5 haulers of junk up to the y4y constel, was much more tence any time DNA could have seen us, or ASS, now you just load up the cap ship and jump it into 0.0, somtimes in just one jump, or u had a midway station/pos, no risk and no traffic.
open up alot more entry points into 0.0 add a few more 0.0 regions, remove jump drives other than on titans perhaps and make dreads and carriers use gates like the rest, making them alot harder to move around and making 0.0 alot bigger again!
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Nito Musashi
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Posted - 2008.07.22 00:05:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Malcanis
Quote:
CCP would much rather see you wardec some mission running corps to secure the scarce resource of agents for yourselves than add more ways to risklessly accumulate SoloIskÖ. Likewise empire mining.
and what difference exactly would it make if there were 2 systems in each factions area where there would be good level 4 agents. as oppised to now where you get 300 in dod and 400 to 600 in jita on peak days. its nice to have more than one option especially when one of these "war decs" has 30 people sitting outside the station just taking up space hoping someone will be brave or stupid enough to undock and get blown up.
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Bodhisattvas
Wife BEATERS
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Posted - 2008.07.22 00:08:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Artemis Rose
People tend to crowd too much in the same areas.
As for PvP, blobbing is no where near because of overcrowding. We only have ourselves to blame for requiring the numerical advantage and the superior firepower in the majority of our engagements. A few fight against many is not the mantra of EVE.
(F)ag (W)arfare is a prime candidate for this mentality.
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Voculus
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 01:06:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Chribba
HelloKitty Online looks promising...
Does Hello Kitty Online have any PvP?
_________________________________________________________
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 01:55:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Celeste Coeval
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 20/07/2008 12:20:53
More high sec is not nessisary, and low sec is underused enough. More 0.0 is pointless too unlesss people want to fund more macro-miners. . .as it is, 0.0 is very quiet 99% of the time with a few major fleet fights here and there for moons. The difference between empire and 0.0 is what is to be blamed imo - the difference is too great. And with more people crying about ganks in high sec - the rift will grow further. If people want the population to spread out, they need to accept that Empire needs to get dangerous enough to justify a marginal risk increace to move out to low sec - as it is - that incentive does not exist because people are huddled in empire demanding more protection.
In essence, its your own damn fault you feel eve is croweded.
you don't make much sense.
In simple terms:
low-sec/0.0 is empty and high sec is crowded because high sec is too rich and too safe. Contrary to what most people seem to want, if high-sec were more dangerous and less rich, then it would force people to spread out.
simple enough?
----
GO BLUE!! |
TalonClark
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 05:01:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
Originally by: Celeste Coeval
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 20/07/2008 12:20:53
More high sec is not nessisary, and low sec is underused enough. More 0.0 is pointless too unlesss people want to fund more macro-miners. . .as it is, 0.0 is very quiet 99% of the time with a few major fleet fights here and there for moons. The difference between empire and 0.0 is what is to be blamed imo - the difference is too great. And with more people crying about ganks in high sec - the rift will grow further. If people want the population to spread out, they need to accept that Empire needs to get dangerous enough to justify a marginal risk increace to move out to low sec - as it is - that incentive does not exist because people are huddled in empire demanding more protection.
In essence, its your own damn fault you feel eve is croweded.
you don't make much sense.
In simple terms:
low-sec/0.0 is empty and high sec is crowded because high sec is too rich and too safe. Contrary to what most people seem to want, if high-sec were more dangerous and less rich, then it would force people to spread out.
simple enough?
Where the heck do you get the idea that 0.0 is empty? Any idea at all how 0.0 is made up? The systems that are empty are not worth anything, maybe a moon or 2, but ppl dont have to be in there. Only systems with at least -0.5 and 10+ moons are worth ratting in, and this systems are crowded nowadays (you make less then doing lvl4 missions). Mining? Only worth for crokite/ark/... thats, if i'm not mistaken, only -0.8 or lower systems (i dont mine much).
So no, 0.0 is not empty, most of 0.0 is just not worth anything besides moons.
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Darkwolf
Caldari
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 06:02:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
In simple terms:
low-sec/0.0 is empty and high sec is crowded because high sec is too rich and too safe. Contrary to what most people seem to want, if high-sec were more dangerous and less rich, then it would force people to spread out.
You're also making the incorrect assumption that people remain in high-sec because of the reward. They don't. They remain in high-sec because of the lack of risk.
Many people are sufficiently risk-averse that attempting to force them out of high-sec will just result in them leaving the game entirely.
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Gealbhan
Caldari
Infernal Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 06:21:00 -
[68]
if anything, eve-o is under populated. We need more targe..uh people, yeah that's it, people.
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Kahega Amielden
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 06:23:00 -
[69]
Quote:
Many people are sufficiently risk-averse that attempting to force them out of high-sec will just result in them leaving the game entirely.
You can't force them out of hisec, nor should we. That's not the point. The risk averse will always be so. The point is to encourage the people who AREN'T hellishly risk averse to lowsec and nullsec. If you think everyone in hisec is deathly afraid of risk, you're wrong
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 07:10:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 22/07/2008 07:10:07
The problem with empire is not the risk. In some aspects empire is even riskier than 0.0, suicide gankers, can stealers, laggy mission hubs.
But 0.0 is in even worse condition. A few examples: Nano***s; Capital-Hotdrops; Endless Hours of POS Wars; Superblobs; People keeping others from ratting an mining, by parking cloaked recons in the systems. Sure there are ways to avoid the problems and still have fun, but tbh. but they make 0.0 feel more like a second job, then anything else.
There a lot of other problems. What will happen if a small alliance tries to make their first steps into 0.0? As soon as they have something worth taking, a super alliance will come, trample them over and take everything they had. Happened in the past, will happen in the future.
I would gladly return into a 0.0 of empty space. Where a fortune can be made if you play smart or you can obtain a fearsome PvP reputation for yourself. But this kind of 0.0 where I would want to go, died somewhere in 2007.
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Ralle030583
Gallente
The Wild Hunt
Pure.
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 07:27:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Chribba
HelloKitty Online looks promising...
k... cause thats now the 38463 posts of chribba i see about HelloKitty online i will test it next days :-)
---------------------------------------
You need a free Killboard?
check: http:\\www.eve-kill.net
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait
i have untr |
Malcanis
We are Legend
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 07:40:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Malcanis on 22/07/2008 07:40:12
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 22/07/2008 07:10:07
The problem with empire is not the risk. In some aspects empire is even riskier than 0.0, suicide gankers, can stealers, laggy mission hubs.
But 0.0 is in even worse condition. A few examples: Nano***s; Capital-Hotdrops; Endless Hours of POS Wars; Superblobs; People keeping others from ratting an mining, by parking cloaked recons in the systems. Sure there are ways to avoid the problems and still have fun, but tbh. but they make 0.0 feel more like a second job, then anything else.
There a lot of other problems. What will happen if a small alliance tries to make their first steps into 0.0? As soon as they have something worth taking, a super alliance will come, trample them over and take everything they had. Happened in the past, will happen in the future.
I would gladly return into a 0.0 of empty space. Where a fortune can be made if you play smart or you can obtain a fearsome PvP reputation for yourself. But this kind of 0.0 where I would want to go, died somewhere in 2007.
The problems you describe with 0.0 are exactly why I advocate more NPC 0.0: because large alliances just aren't interested in it. No cyno jammers, no jump bridges, not much high-end ore. And with NPC stations in place, there is the infrastructure available for small corps/alliances that can't build outposts, and couldn't defend them against megablobs if they did. Since you don't need to worry about Sov there's no POS spam.
Sure the large alliances will do roams, but hey, all part of the fun. You can always just dock up in an unconquerable NPC station if they bring a blob and return the favour in their ratting systems later.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Dzajic
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 07:51:00 -
[73]
Just to say, talks about huge riskless rewards of high sec... are mostly bogus. If your race isn't Caldari that is.
Other factions have much, much lower quality mission agents in empire, and no sweet spots like Salia and Motsu. Still, people will rather chose Q-19 agent in empire than a Q20 in 0.0 or 0.1
The fact that Caldari ships + CN agents + current mission concept = Broken Gameplay and lazy cash farming doesn't make that true for everyone else.
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Qduhaf
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 18:12:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Xtreem
its been said here already, but its jump drives that have ruined the feeling of vast 0.0 space, as all ships are jumped up by carrier, or mothership, or titan, or jump freighters.
When i first joined a 0.0 allaince, back in my good ole 3FA days, when our corp joiined they sent an escort to mhc for us as we had not been in much of it, so we went in convoy a few of our bs/cruisers and a few escorts sent from 3FA to escort about 5 haulers of junk up to the y4y constel, was much more tence any time DNA could have seen us, or ASS, now you just load up the cap ship and jump it into 0.0, somtimes in just one jump, or u had a midway station/pos, no risk and no traffic.
open up alot more entry points into 0.0 add a few more 0.0 regions, remove jump drives other than on titans perhaps and make dreads and carriers use gates like the rest, making them alot harder to move around and making 0.0 alot bigger again!
exactly
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