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Heptameron
Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:00:00 -
[1]
Day after day we (for some sort of semi masochistic reason) we log into these forums and read bile ridden post upon post, sides taking virtual pot shots at each other in the forlorn hope that somehow somewhere what they say is important or listened to (cept our goony friends because they really don't give a rats rear :p).
One of the current major conflicts is most obviously operation 'Max' ie BoB and its allies versus the northern coalition. I see time after time prostrate bob wannabees praying to their pink hat wearing effigies, (sorry Molle, but that hat dude lol) while posting complete and ill informed tripe on these boards. Whereas we, the NC are still sitting predominantly watching large bubbles, telling bad jokes on TS, finding a solo female pilot amongst a bucket load of male ones on TS who need some sort of distraction (unfortunately for her) and of course, on COAD we quote kb stats, particular fights (where we of course emerged victorious :p) and a long litany of reasons why we do not take on the opposing fleet head on.
Ok, be a little patient with me, I do tend to wax lyrical on ocassion, particularly on hot evenings after a bottle of wine or 2....
The single most important and game defining factor that stops this being the top of the tree kind of gaming experience it deserves is performance. Sides claiming victory over opponents whether it be by force of numbers, out maneouvred by superior tactics or simple k/d ratios on anything larger than medium scale engagements are simply kidding themselves. Complaints about blob tactics are possibly valid, but aimed at the wrong people. Blobbing is not always about ensuring a greater superiority by numbers overall, but sometimes just trying to make sure you get more people on grid and loaded before your opponents and therefore give yourself a better chance of winning. All of the time spent on tactical discussions for the most part is lost as it just becomes a free for all slugfest. Why would the NC risk being unable to warp out of a DD drop and lose their entire fleet to lag? Why would Bob after the first few attempts try and jump in a massive fleet to be taken out by an inferior numbered force beacuse they couldn't move out of the bubbled zone?
Well you may still be wondering about the reason behind this post, not 100% sure to be honest but maybe it's just to point out that two massive coalitions are trying as best they can to play the game in the way it was designed but unfortunately serious flaws make that almost impossible. Maybe it's also to point out that we are both guilty of posturing and all of the bs that comes with it but to date neither side has actually been able to test each others fleet fighting skills and is unlikely to in the forseeable future.
Like i said, so far the only real victor has been the lag God and boy oh boy he's been in a bad mood for the last week or so....
Oh and PS - sorry Fred, was bored
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gordon cain
Minmatar x13 X13 Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:08:00 -
[2]
Wine + CAOD = bad
But descent post and completely agree.
Gordon Cain
Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience. |
n00b alt3
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:22:00 -
[3]
in before the trolls
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:27:00 -
[4]
Originally by: n00b alt3 in before the trolls
Bit of a pickle there, you're technically in at the same time as the troll(s)
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Red Moon
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:30:00 -
[5]
actually the single most interesting post ive seen in ages.
Everyone by now is used to "LAAAAAAG" but still makes u cry wen u get a couple minutes module lag in a system with only 100-200 man in it ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Moonlight Express
Amarr Moonlight Express Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:31:00 -
[6]
Someone must have gotten spanked. Any details as to whom the lag killed this time?
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Proud American
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:33:00 -
[7]
file petitions and if you're lucky the CCP database admin will reinforce the node who is handling your solar system hth
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Red Moon
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:40:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Proud American file petitions and if you're lucky the CCP database admin will reinforce the node who is handling your solar system hth
That's kinda moronic tbh... i would expect that after 5 years they would have some sort of automatic something that shifts the load as needed. Something not relaying on FC's sending the roaming route for ccp aproval.
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Heptameron
Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:40:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Moonlight Express Someone must have gotten spanked. Any details as to whom the lag killed this time?
Not at all, just frustrating to do 30 mins of fly by's trying to target stuff and failing, hearing continuous comments about loading 15 minutes after a fight has finished, and of course the infamous 'i warped out on 15% structure and blew up 10 minutes later at an SS once the grid finished doing it's stuff', ok ok, that bit was me but i die a lot so am used to it :p.
Also had a wee chat with an old friend of mine on the opposition front line earlier today, it's easy to lose perspective in a virtual universe and forget the other side are invariably suffering the same pooh as we are.
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teh punisher
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Proud American file petitions and if you're lucky the CCP database admin will reinforce the node who is handling your solar system hth
or just message someone from bob and get them to msn the devs. much faster that way.
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fugazii
Deep Space Productions
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:54:00 -
[11]
"man lag sucks" ...
... "btw can i get invite to the 500man fleet plz?"
and yes, bob are the only ones who have pro-bob, non-bob posters on the forums.
"There is nothing they can do to counter 5000 f*****g Goons logged in and ready to go." - darius JOHNSON |
Proud American
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:58:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Red Moon
Originally by: Proud American file petitions and if you're lucky the CCP database admin will reinforce the node who is handling your solar system hth
That's kinda moronic tbh... i would expect that after 5 years they would have some sort of automatic something that shifts the load as needed. Something not relaying on FC's sending the roaming route for ccp aproval.
It might be stupid but it's the only way I know of that improves lag. Don't tell us that it is stupid. Tell it to CCP.
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Fiyah Sun
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.20 21:19:00 -
[13]
We had a pretty good 250-300 ship skirmish in 2R- last night that wasn't a grid load tossup. Wish they were all like that.
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Gumpy Nighthawk
Amarr Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.20 21:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Fiyah Sun We had a pretty good 250-300 ship skirmish in 2R- last night that wasn't a grid load tossup. Wish they were all like that.
I already miss my small roam pvp ops.
Can't we ffs all just get along and get back to smallish roaming gangs killing eachother? :P
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Unfunny Alt
Anonymous Forumposters
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Posted - 2008.07.20 22:07:00 -
[15]
as much as lag sucks any measure to artificially reduce said lag is probably going to suck even more. not talking about server upgrades but 'ideas' like limiting the number of people in the system or equally silly things. the server adding artifical lag (the more people are on your side of a fight the more you get lagged) could make smaller gangs more attractive but would spell havoc for pos warfare too. still hoping ccp finds a decent way to remodel the sov system. come to think of it the idea to split objectives would probably encourage blobs not on one grid but on several. but its getting away from topic even more.
have you tried offerings to the lag god? smartboming in jita? 50 guys with velators suiciding someone on an empire lane? dding a few hundret noob ships? perhaps next time he will look more nicely in your direction while the big fleets try to load each other,
Fighter in the Trollwars |
Bryce Calladan
Caldari CAD Inc. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.20 22:15:00 -
[16]
Well said Heptameron, I really enjoyed reading a non-flame post on CAOD for once.
It truly is a shame that we have to operate in this way to have "fun" (which it really isn't), and hopefully soon CCP can upgrade their systems to handle 0.0 Fleet Engagements the way they are now. The only problem is this: Once we're all able to play well in 500+ man fleets, it'll turn into even larger problems in the name of massive cap jump-ins, titans, and the whole shebang.
I, myself, have only been in two of these blob-fleets, and I've died before loading grid both times. It really isn't fun, I'd much rather be able to load grind and pew pew with our bitter enemies. =P
Again, Hep, well posted. o7 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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Groox
noli turbare circulos meos
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Posted - 2008.07.20 22:29:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Groox on 20/07/2008 22:30:39 Funny part of this all "lag-lag-lag" sentiment is that after all those times (or should we say years by now) there is still 30k+ ppl who are constantly online. And not only - they even pay hardly earned $$$ for this experience (mostly).
So i guess CCP is doing something right after all.
Hm...
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Gumpy Nighthawk
Amarr Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.20 22:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Groox Edited by: Groox on 20/07/2008 22:30:39 Funny part of this all "lag-lag-lag" sentiment is that after all those times (or should we say years by now) there is still 30k+ ppl who are constantly online. And not only - they even pay hardly earned $$$ for this experience (mostly).
So i guess CCP is doing something right after all.
Hm...
The only thing they are doing right atm is praying not some other company comes up with a similar game but with a lot less lag experience ;)
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Karma4u
Amarr Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.07.20 22:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Groox Edited by: Groox on 20/07/2008 22:30:39 Funny part of this all "lag-lag-lag" sentiment is that after all those times (or should we say years by now) there is still 30k+ ppl who are constantly online. And not only - they even pay hardly earned $$$ for this experience (mostly).
So i guess CCP is doing something right after all.
Hm...
yea of course your doing something right, but you gotta admit, it'd be nice if you could now make it work eh
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2008.07.20 22:53:00 -
[20]
I have to agree with the OP. It can't be said often enough that the single biggest factor in deciding the outcome of a typical fleet battle these days is lag. Believe it or not (under the assumption that noone fights so heavily outnumbered that numbers play a bigger role these days unless he is suicidal).
Note how few serious battle reports with posturing there actually are these days about the large battles (only a few by noobish alts that don't know better).
Also, FW has made things worse rather than better. Nowdays you can have 100 people in fleet and 70-80 will emergency warp and/or get traffic control at every other jump, that's ridiculous.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Oregon sinful
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 06:22:00 -
[21]
Best, most informed and so far constructive CAOD post this year. Never thought it possible.
Hept. your exactly right. I hate trying to squeeze 500 ppl into a system at once. Last fight i disconnected and had to wait to DT to log back on and get out, most wern't as lucky as me.
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.21 06:30:00 -
[22]
Whatever you do, keep your pilots in 0.0 and the lagmunster with them. Don't join Factional Warfare, it sucks. The POS's and Carrier jumps and DDD's are much more fun.
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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King Balthazar
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.21 09:11:00 -
[23]
Well now the FW ppl are starting to complain about lag too, in other words, 2/3 of eve is now affected by lag. If this continues even the carebears are gone start complaining about lagà
I wrote ôan open letterö to ccp the other day about this issue.. The objective wasnÆt to complain about lag but to try an find out why there is no improvement. The answer a got was a 15 page thread with ppl arguing in a weird IT language but my questions as to why there is no real plan of action to reduce lag was left unanswered.
Atm the moment there is no date or real plan to solve lag àAnd has mentioned above in this thread there are 30 k players connected on average and therefore no real (economical) motivation for CCP to get their priorities right.
I am afraid that at this point unless there is some action taken by the players nothing will change; maybe we should all start considering not renewing our subscription for one month in order to put some serious economical pressure on CCP.
Not sure how many different accounts, but if we take a 300.000 as a variable at 15 Ç a month that would be a 4.5 million euro deficit for them and maybe force them to give us some date/information on the lag issueà
Anyway sorry for the boring post, King
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.21 09:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: King Balthazar
If this continues even the carebears are gone start complaining about lag…
*cough*
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128th ABC123
Eve Liberation Force Liberty.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 09:45:00 -
[25]
wasnt it TT that wore the pink hat? or i just mixing them up...
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Kai Jyokoroi
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.21 09:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: King Balthazar The answer a got was a 15 page thread with ppl arguing in a weird IT language
ITT - people who don't understand how massively distributed and time-dependent complex databases and large scale cluster computing works.
THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Just because you can't understand what's going on doesn't mean they aren't paying attention to the issue.
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Heptameron
Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 10:16:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi
Originally by: King Balthazar The answer a got was a 15 page thread with ppl arguing in a weird IT language
ITT - people who don't understand how massively distributed and time-dependent complex databases and large scale cluster computing works.
THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Just because you can't understand what's going on doesn't mean they aren't paying attention to the issue.
Well as you're obviously someone in the know explain in laymans terms how a complex and time dependant game that people are paying hard cash for, is going to improve and lag reduced to allow players to experience what it was designed for.
oh and PS... I've been in IT for 10 years from network engineer to currently IT director so hey... just for giggles and the rest of the crew who might not understand please give us the inside scoop... either that or retreive you're snozzle from CCP's rear, wipe the brown stuff off the end and admit the game is fubared AND real money subscribers have the right to voice their opinions.
but for the record I hope they get it right... it's too good to die like others that have suffered a similar fate.
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Kai Jyokoroi
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.21 10:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Heptameron
Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi
Originally by: King Balthazar The answer a got was a 15 page thread with ppl arguing in a weird IT language
ITT - people who don't understand how massively distributed and time-dependent complex databases and large scale cluster computing works.
THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Just because you can't understand what's going on doesn't mean they aren't paying attention to the issue.
stuff
Well, I could... or as an "IT Director" I would have assumed you could have guessed that when you're dealing with an absolutely unique IT environment like Eve - i.e., the largest simultaneous one-instanced game server in the world - that things take time to change and that every major technological challenge they face is generally something that has never been encountered before by an MMO. I would also have guessed that you have no specific knowledge of the issues they are encountering, otherwise again, you wouldn't be saying that. Reducing lag when 400 simultaneous clients are using huge amounts of your power on the same grid is an example of this. They are working on fixing it. It will be done when it's done. All your moaning and whining won't change that.
tl;dr - things take TIME. If you wanna quit, can I have your stuff?
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and do something less painful than replying to you again, like sticking my wiener in a roaring fire.
(And if you're an IT Director, spouting misinformed toss like that, then I'm the Queen of Sheba.)
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hired goon
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.07.21 11:25:00 -
[29]
Well, although we all scream at poor CCP to 'fix the lag' meaning 'make bandwidth speed instant and eliminate all bottlenecks', the more realistic prospect is to 'change' fleet warfare away from power-ball blob tactics. Now, I know some of you are adverse to that, but think for a moment. Do you really enjoy sitting in a 300-man camp for 30 hours waiting for a battle that then breaks the server? How much fun did you have? Wasn't the highlight when a shuttle jumped in? Did you even get a lock?
Now compare this to the last few small-scale engagements that you had. Perhaps your roaming gang jumped into the bubble of another similarly sized, and you both duked it out and had a great time?
Wouldn't it be nice if large scale fleet warfare was moved more in that direction? 'Broken up'?
What I'm saying is, it would be a better idea to contribute ideas to help improve gameplay aspects than to whine about lag. Although of course I understand and love to whine myself, the truth is that CCP is - contrary to popular belief - not sitting at HQ with booze and women staring at a big red button labelled 'PRESS TO FIX LAG' and laughing about not pressing it. They're working on a solution. And they've already asked for our help on ideas for gameplay enhancements - so to be honest, get your arses to the features and ideas discussion and let's break the blob! -omg-
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King Balthazar
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.21 11:41:00 -
[30]
Edited by: King Balthazar on 21/07/2008 11:42:27
Originally by: hired goon Well, although we all scream at poor CCP to 'fix the lag' meaning 'make bandwidth speed instant and eliminate all bottlenecks', the more realistic prospect is to 'change' fleet warfare away from power-ball blob tactics. Now, I know some of you are adverse to that, but think for a moment. Do you really enjoy sitting in a 300-man camp for 30 hours waiting for a battle that then breaks the server? How much fun did you have? Wasn't the highlight when a shuttle jumped in? Did you even get a lock?
Now compare this to the last few small-scale engagements that you had. Perhaps your roaming gang jumped into the bubble of another similarly sized, and you both duked it out and had a great time?
Wouldn't it be nice if large scale fleet warfare was moved more in that direction? 'Broken up'?
What I'm saying is, it would be a better idea to contribute ideas to help improve gameplay aspects than to whine about lag. Although of course I understand and love to whine myself, the truth is that CCP is - contrary to popular belief - not sitting at HQ with booze and women staring at a big red button labelled 'PRESS TO FIX LAG' and laughing about not pressing it. They're working on a solution. And they've already asked for our help on ideas for gameplay enhancements - so to be honest, get your arses to the features and ideas discussion and let's break the blob!
Roaming gangs are fun but have you ever dreamed about a 150vs150 man fleet fight without lag???? Well I certainly have.
Regarding the IT geek above who is defending ccp, you might be an IT expert but you also an idiot who needs to learn a bit more learn English and stop seeing everything as 1000011001000 binary.
You have to understand that some of us have a very limited knowledge when it comes IT, however we still pay our subscription just like you do and therefore have the same right to be informed on advances regarding lag issues in ways we can understandà
If you see my post all I am asking is ôwhatÆs the planö
But I sum it up for you:
Is there a realistic way to solve the lag?
If there is, what stage of implementation are we at? are we at the brainstorming stage?
What is the time frame of the plan?
I am not whining or saying ccp is not doing anything, I just would like to have some objective information so I can have a clear picture of what my future gaming experience is gone be like.
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Heptameron
Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 11:46:00 -
[31]
Well unfortunately as human beings we seem to be a little flawed. We have this most annoying concept of quality of service and whining if said QoS is not as advertised and less than expected, especially if we throw our cash at it.
But to put the record straight the initial post was not a whine in any way shape or form, it was a statement of fact acknowleding that both sides are seriously affected by lag and in fact was more about the chest beating done by both sides about who won/lost etc when in fact neither sides skills ahve really been tested... just their patience.
@Kai - well i'm not here to debate my current employment so feel free to think whatever you so wish dude... But you have obviously never been in a customer service environment worth it's salt. I have worked for good and bad, the most successful one being that which had a customer service 2nd to none and LISTENED to those that paid for the service.
Have absolutely no doubt that every single 100k+ paying customer of Eve has the right to comment on the quality of service of a product they pay for particularly if that QoS is degraded to the point where it's unplayable.
*desperately trying not to smack.....* aaah dammit can't resist.. weiner in roaring fire? bit of overkill? just try a match dude would be done in one go and not risk singing your nuts
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hired goon
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.07.21 12:14:00 -
[32]
Originally by: King Balthazar
Roaming gangs are fun but have you ever dreamed about a 150vs150 man fleet fight without lag???? Well I certainly have.
Well yeah, and I've also dreamed of games so realistic that the NPC's aren't voice acted, they actually speak to you. Maybe in a few years eh? But today that kind of thing doesn't exist, due to what we call 'technical limitations'. A bit like the limitation that prevents you from letting go of an apple and watching it drop up onto the ceiling instead of down onto the floor. The impossibility of having a lagless engagement with that many people swapping that much information through a single server is the limitation, and you have to understand that it's being worked on - not ignored!
I do understand you're only asking for a status update in laymans terms - to be honest I'd like the same. This does exist somewhere, I was reading it recently, something about this 'infiniband' that's being put in. I'm not sure exactly what it's all about (some pretty technical language used in that thread) but I'm pretty sure it won't 'cure' fleet lag the way many people are unfortunately expecting.
This is because I've seen promises of fleetlag-reducing upgrades for years now, and none have made a noticable difference.
Call me a cynic, but I don't expect fleet lag to ever realistically be eliminated with the numbers we bring - and neither should you. I put my faith in gameplay changes only. -omg-
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hired goon
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.07.21 12:17:00 -
[33]
Besides 150 v 150 would still be boring even with no lag, I'm so sick of the whole 'get a tactical advantage for three hours' followed by 'primary target blah, secondary target blah' then 'warp out their/our titan is here'.
'use fleet fit or you won't be reimbursed' 'shoot who we say' 'log out now come back at 4am'
Sniff my balls, I'd rather be in a desperate small gang fight all stuck in a bubble with no chance of reinforcements! -omg-
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TroNaaR
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 12:24:00 -
[34]
No ones coming to save you....
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Tassi
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2008.07.21 12:27:00 -
[35]
hired goon is the man tbfh.
You blob****ers made the bed you are sleeping in now, enjoy it or rather not
stop napping the shit out of eve, might bring you fun
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rValdez5987
Amarr Series of Tubes
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Posted - 2008.07.21 12:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: hired goon Besides 150 v 150 would still be boring even with no lag, I'm so sick of the whole 'get a tactical advantage for three hours' followed by 'primary target blah, secondary target blah' then 'warp out their/our titan is here'.
'use fleet fit or you won't be reimbursed' 'shoot who we say' 'log out now come back at 4am'
Sniff my balls, I'd rather be in a desperate small gang fight all stuck in a bubble with no chance of reinforcements!
AMEN DUDE.
Those are the best fights. The ones that you cant really win, but you can still kill a whole assload of shit. To the point of which the other guys are like omfg dude we hold the field but they ****d us.
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Merrick Tolkien
Shadow Company Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:20:00 -
[37]
Simply put, "its not like the old days"
But heres hoping they add 5 new regions 500 new systems and some more stations and spread us all about a bit. Give us something more to fight over, a reason to send roaming scouting parties.
That, i hope, would bring 10-15 man roaming gangs back into play. In the mean time, EVE's too small and blob-online works. Shadow Company
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bloody johnroberts
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:24:00 -
[38]
Great post we all know that lag is the enemy of every player of this game most or all exploit it in one way or another ie (release drones)or get your forces in before them or hot drop cap fleets into system remember the bookmarkers.
But all alliances still play with a 100 to 200 ship fleets and this wont change i miss the small band of roaming ships although they do still exist they are few and far between or the nano kind.
ccp will never stop lag we in our hearts know this its a feature of the game now god help us when ambulation hits as we will have 150 alts running around the station for no reason other than creating lag
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Tar om
Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:41:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tassi hired goon is the man tbfh.
You blob****ers made the bed you are sleeping in now, enjoy it or rather not
stop napping the shit out of eve, might bring you fun
We didn't make the bed - CCP did. We're playing the endgame they created, its just that they never got as far as testing the endgame so we're having to put up with the consequences of some really bad design decisions. Yes, bad decisions - made by CCP. They've had 5 years to fix them, they've even looked into building a true supercomputer to fix it, but it has all gone quiet. -- DEVS get multiple CPUs/Cores per system and all will be forgiven.
Parallel Python |
Deidranna
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:49:00 -
[40]
the BLOB will always be the BLOB. everyone will throw everything possible at any attacker or defender. the days, people fought for fun are long gone in 0,0. :) its all about the pwn and the killmail - with lots of expensive stuff lost so we can blame him for fail on coad - baby. space is to valuable for having fun with it ... :)
and more space will only result in more space for some few selected powerhouses, the same we have today, they will have more pets ofc ...
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GM Eldini > Hi, behaving are we? GM Eldini > This chat is so intelligent it hurts..
*retirement in progress* paused*
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Tearavygh Quillam
Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:50:00 -
[41]
What's the percentage of Eve players that "pay 100% of their subscription to fight in fleet battles"?
I don't think it's high enough so that we can expect a major change anytime soon.
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Tar om
Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:56:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam What's the percentage of Eve players that "pay 100% of their subscription to fight in fleet battles"?
I don't think it's high enough so that we can expect a major change anytime soon.
That's the sad truth. It also makes those shiny Eve trailers with big fleet battles a little bit of a lie.... -- DEVS get multiple CPUs/Cores per system and all will be forgiven.
Parallel Python |
Heptameron
Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 14:13:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tar om
Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam What's the percentage of Eve players that "pay 100% of their subscription to fight in fleet battles"?
I don't think it's high enough so that we can expect a major change anytime soon.
That's the sad truth. It also makes those shiny Eve trailers with big fleet battles a little bit of a lie....
Amen me old matey... As i said on TS last night i still remember the old JQA VV-VCR fleet fights, the first i think of the large scale ones (around 250-300) and they were virtually lag free for the most part. Yes the player base was less than half of what it is today but then that was pre 9467 patches, pre blade server installs, pre all the tweaking and tuning etc etc.
For those those advocates of only small scale combat, well what can i say 'cept yay you! Thats just quake in space. The game is designed to include large scale fleet fights which as i said in a previous post, are reduced to slugfests because of performance. True tactical skills would come into play and be better tested if it were semi lagless. Even moving around within 5k of your jump/warp in takes 5-10 minutes in a big fight these days.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 14:20:00 -
[44]
Adapt or quit. I heard that phrase before and guess its spot on for this topic.
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Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 14:32:00 -
[45]
No matter the increase in power, us fleetmongers will always keep adding peeps until things lag. What is needed is NOT the ability to handle 250 vs 250 fights, its something for the 250 peeps to do other than try to engage another 250 peeps.
CCP, give us other objectives and Soverignty mechanics so that we have multiple points of battle in multiple systems. Stop forcing everything through bottlenecks like gates. Create multiple small-scale objectives that actually mean something.
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King Balthazar
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.21 14:35:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Adapt or quit. I heard that phrase before and guess its spot on for this topic.
God caod full of idiots today, for once there is an objective thread... i mean have you seen any goonies on this OP? no, that means its serious.
this is not about adapting, we just thinking and wishing eve could be a better game all around...
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 14:52:00 -
[47]
Originally by: King Balthazar
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Adapt or quit. I heard that phrase before and guess its spot on for this topic.
God caod full of idiots today, for once there is an objective thread... i mean have you seen any goonies on this OP? no, that means its serious.
this is not about adapting, we just thinking and wishing eve could be a better game all around...
So keep dreaming on idiot. I for other hand prefer to play with stuff i already have.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.21 14:55:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Tar om
Originally by: Tassi hired goon is the man tbfh.
You blob****ers made the bed you are sleeping in now, enjoy it or rather not
stop napping the shit out of eve, might bring you fun
We didn't make the bed - CCP did. We're playing the endgame they created, its just that they never got as far as testing the endgame so we're having to put up with the consequences of some really bad design decisions. Yes, bad decisions - made by CCP. They've had 5 years to fix them, they've even looked into building a true supercomputer to fix it, but it has all gone quiet.
Hmmm alliance fleetfights are "the endgame"? My feeling is that there's a whole phase of the game that comes after you feel the need to fleet up with a huge multi-alliance fleet. The value of player skill, experience and fitting reduces with the size of the fleet. More experienced high-SP players who want to fly nice ships with shiney modules may avoid fleet fights for just this reason: 5 max-skilled players in T2-fit fleet BS = 7 noobs who can barely undock theirs.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Kai Jyokoroi
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.21 15:08:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Kai Jyokoroi on 21/07/2008 15:09:26
Originally by: King Balthazar
Regarding the IT geek above who is defending ccp, you might be an IT expert but you also an idiot who needs to learn a bit more learn English.
OK, normally picking on someone's spelling or grammar is the lowest form of wit. But that, there, is just delicious.
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Kai Jyokoroi
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.21 15:13:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Heptameron
@Kai - well i'm not here to debate my current employment so feel free to think whatever you so wish dude... But you have obviously never been in a customer service environment worth it's salt.
On the contrary. I work for a market-leading digital agency as an technical manager. I am on the phone to our clients all day as their primary contact. I work in the design and implementation of extremely complex e-commerce websites up to and including distributed large scale databases. Admittedly, that's not game design, but it's of a similar scale sometimes.
My clients know that fixing complex things takes time and resource. As an 'IT Director', so should you.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.07.21 15:53:00 -
[51]
The lag problem will never go away, think about it like this. People are just going to keep pushing the limits of how many people they can stuff into a system. Example, a few years ago the biggest fights were about 80-100 on a side, and they were laggy back then. Now we get 200-400 people and its laggy. So once the next technology upgrade comes, people are just gonna slam 600+ in the system and ***** about how laggy it is. Its a never ending vicious cycle.
The only remedy will have to be gameplay changes that discourge blobing. An interesting idea a friend of mine came up with, is to basically make it so that way in order to have a cyno jammer online, u need a special pos mod in every adjacent system, and these systems cannot be cyno jammed, due to some sort of fictional interferance between the mods. Drop those mods, and the cyno jammer offlines.
That would break up the current alamo style of gameplay that we see, where an attacking force has no other option but to try to zerg a cyno jammed system. Now the attackers have multipule angles of assault, and the defenders can't just sit around with their thumbs up their ass camping the shit outta the cyno jammer.
and yes i know that the F&I forums is that way
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Pesadel0
Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.21 16:10:00 -
[52]
Lag wont ever go away, because we all blob,and it is a exponential problem.I still remember when 50VS50 was lagy ,when 100vs100 was lag,when 150vs150(nowadays).
So yes they are trying to fix the stuff ,i imagine it must be an herculean task because when they get the 200VS200 to work ,then we will climb a notch and go 300vs300 and the whine about lag rewinds and makes a full circle again.
If anything they have to find some kind of solutions to the way 0.0 warfare works,that aint easy neither ,so i guess we are trapped in this gigantic world that sometimes works and sometimes doesn¦t.Adapt or quit.
To people saying that there will be games that will let you play agains 100VS100 without lag ,sorry that is bullshit and you know it,hell even AOC that is instanced has alot of problems dealing with 50vs50 and it is a recent game,wow craps itself with 100 people on the same location... ------------------------------------------------------------------
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Lowa
Gallente North Star Networks Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 16:43:00 -
[53]
One note on "it will never go away we'll just bring more people"; How many more can we actually get?
The biggest fight ever to take place in EVE has involved about 2000 people. About 1000 of the in the same system (Molles 2nd titan scrambled?) and the rest stuck on the way.
Now...that was prime time, mega-nap-train collitions and alliances, north, south, east, west, problably some people Devhaxed in from Jove space (and their mothers) and then some!
Even if the growth of EVE it self is high (Not sure where we are atm) the number of people in 0.0 alliance warfare is not growing very much hence ~2000 people is about as big as it gets right now. And it also require these mega-alliances to be created and hopefully that wont happen again for awhile.
I think what I'm saying here is, what is a reasonable number to aim for? Trying to solve the many many 100-200 people fights or the very rare 2000?
Hmm..I think I forgot my finishing touch but wtf, I'm going fishing instead.
Cheers, Lowa
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Jallem Sims
Minmatar Quantum Warriors
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Posted - 2008.07.21 16:48:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Straight Chillen The lag problem will never go away, think about it like this. People are just going to keep pushing the limits of how many people they can stuff into a system. Example, a few years ago the biggest fights were about 80-100 on a side, and they were laggy back then. Now we get 200-400 people and its laggy. So once the next technology upgrade comes, people are just gonna slam 600+ in the system and ***** about how laggy it is. Its a never ending vicious cycle.
The only remedy will have to be gameplay changes that discourge blobing. An interesting idea a friend of mine came up with, is to basically make it so that way in order to have a cyno jammer online, u need a special pos mod in every adjacent system, and these systems cannot be cyno jammed, due to some sort of fictional interferance between the mods. Drop those mods, and the cyno jammer offlines.
That would break up the current alamo style of gameplay that we see, where an attacking force has no other option but to try to zerg a cyno jammed system. Now the attackers have multipule angles of assault, and the defenders can't just sit around with their thumbs up their ass camping the shit outta the cyno jammer.
and yes i know that the F&I forums is that way
personally, i think this has legs.... having a system web around the system you want cyno jammed.
the web been fully functional when all mods are active, and starts to break down the more mods offline. This allowing fluctuations of the cyno jammer, at times when caps can jump in and when they can't. (thus also stopping caps jumping out aswell while cyno jammer is operational, making it a risk to jump in without the web fully down)
or the more networked mods downed the less ehp the cyno jammer has. Could be that a cyno jammer takes up so much cpu that you can't fit so many defence mods on. Thus, the more moons in none cyno jammed systems with the networked cyno web mods inplace has to be removed before making an atempt on the actual cyno jammer itself.
this could spread people out, trying to take the cyno offline and trying to keep the network cyno web up and running in multiple systems.
well... got carried away, but i like this thought... i wonder if its possible tbh.
(this is the opinion of myself and not represents my corp or affiliated alliance in anyway) <-- see what i did there :P |
Dalifron
E.S.M.C.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 16:55:00 -
[55]
Originally by: King Balthazar If you see my post all I am asking is ôwhatÆs the planö
From what I can gather, CCP wants to attack it from two angles. The first is from a gameplay point of view, encouraging large engagements to be broken up into multiple smaller engagements. The second is from the back-end processing point of view, using the Infiniband technology that is discussed in the thread pointed out to you in your Open Letter.
The current state of both of these initiatives is unknown. CCP has asked for proposals to go through the CSM to address the gameplay aspect, and there is little indication on how advanced the Infiniband project is. I think it can safely be assumed that the current status quo will be in place for the next year, however. |
th1rdeye
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.21 17:52:00 -
[56]
Edited by: th1rdeye on 21/07/2008 17:52:12
Originally by: Dalifron The second is from the back-end processing point of view, using the Infiniband technology...
I understand CCP is working on the bandwidth issue, and you can't expect a quick-fix overnight. What leaves me dissatisfied is their constant spouting of "largest single server online game" and the technical miracles needed to make it work, while at the same time trying to jam ever more people in it.
Flashy commercials on Sci-Fi, the "buddy" program, free trials for deactivated accounts, etc. If you can't get lag cured to a playable level in fleet battles, Jita, and Lvl 4 mission systems, why invite more people in?
If you went to a restaurant where the service was interminably slow, you would be disappointed but you might wait. Now what if the same restaurant kept filing ever more feet through the door while you were waiting?
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Commander Solo
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.07.21 18:13:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Commander Solo on 21/07/2008 18:14:33 1) Change the territorial mechanics to consist of simultaneous objectives, distributed over an area of space. 2) All main power bloc's reset standings and agree not to reform nap trains, coalitions and communities. (Guilty as charged) 3) Stop asking for upgrades that are not financially viable.
4) Cure world hunger 5) Profit
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Dalifron
E.S.M.C.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 18:18:00 -
[58]
Originally by: th1rdeye Flashy commercials on Sci-Fi, the "buddy" program, free trials for deactivated accounts, etc. If you can't get lag cured to a playable level in fleet battles, Jita, and Lvl 4 mission systems, why invite more people in?
I won't attempt to guess the reasons behind CCPs marketing and growth strategies, beyond assuming that they wish to make sure that there are sufficient new players (and returning older players) to at least cover the natural customer churn all MMOs exhibit, so they can continue generating the revenue to cover the costs of developing both EVE and the World of Darkness game.
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Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2008.07.21 19:08:00 -
[59]
OK, here's the lag problem as I see it.
Suppose you have two players on a grid fighting each other. Each player is represented by ten variables. Speed, direction, resists, what-have-you, each variable represented by a byte of information (just assuming).
For the fight, each player needs to be aware of the other players variables, so it needs to have access the 20 variables. It needs that access every, say, millisecond or so. so that's 10 bytes per millisecond for each player, or 10 kilobytes per second. In total 2*10=20 Kb/s per player. As network loads go, that's doable, for a 1-on-1.
With more players these (ficticious) numbers are multiplied. So from the player's perspective, on a 20-on-20 fight that means 40*10 = 400 kb/s of network bandwidth. See, it's getting worse. Larger numbers of players means more bandwidth needed.
But that's only considering the client view, for the server needs to push out a lot more data, because it needs to push that out for every player involved, so that's 20*20*10 kb/s, and that's exponential with the number of players!
But that's only considering bandwidth as the bottleneck, consider the server's calculations as well, as each of those variables can be affected by each of the other variables, so for every variable, it has to check all other variables and see if they affect it. Not an easy task!
Now, I pulled those numbers out of my rear-end, as we all know full well that there are many more variables in EVE to consider in a fight, but all are not as relevant. And luckily we also know that an update every millisecond for each of those variables is not needed. Also, since EVE works with a distributed system, a lot of those calculations can be done in parallel using the RAMSAN for fast access to those variables. So, that's a mixed bag (which makes it more difficult to calculate).
I do hope, however, that this (simplistic) example shows that lag, as such, can never be solved completely, however much we like it to be. There will always be a number of players, or a number of variables that will outstrip the bandwidth available. For a similar more classic example of such a closed system, check out the pages on the n-body problem
What is possible is to reduce the factors. That means lesser players on the grid (which we don't want) or less relevant variables. CCP has be trying to do the latter, for example with the new gang system. In some instances it has failed, for example by making it less profitable to have a blob and therefore reduce the number of players on the grid (the small gang objective anyone?).
I think CCP is aware of this problem and is working on it. One idea I like is to make repping (shield/armour/hull) dependent on number of players in gang or on grid. That means introducing a law of diminished return on bringing more players to a fight. I fully admit to have no clue on how this should work, but maybe it can work.
DISCLAIMER: I probably made a mistake calculating this, but you'll get the picture. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.07.21 20:54:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Hesh Ballantine Not two little rag tag bands of 10 or 15 guys having a slap fight and then leaving with their e-honor intact.[/quote
i dont think anyone wants to cut down the numbers to something that small, but i think a few 75-100vs75-100 battles spread across a few systems would be a lot less laggy and much more fun then trying to cram 600+ people into a system till the node pops, Or were u not there for the delve campaign?
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Hesh Ballantine
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.21 21:10:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Hesh Ballantine on 21/07/2008 21:11:57
Originally by: Straight Chillen
Originally by: Hesh Ballantine Not two little rag tag bands of 10 or 15 guys having a slap fight and then leaving with their e-honor intact.[/quote
i dont think anyone wants to cut down the numbers to something that small, but i think a few 75-100vs75-100 battles spread across a few systems would be a lot less laggy and much more fun then trying to cram 600+ people into a system till the node pops, Or were u not there for the delve campaign?
Oh sure, but why compromise the vision of the game to accommodate physical/technical limitations? All things being equal I think we all want to see massive armadas duke it out. Hell, look at the promo banner for Empyrean Age. Tell me that fight wouldn't slow the game to a crawl. As for Delve, lag was only part of it. The real reason Delve sucked is because both sides were trying to make the game as un-fun as possible for their opponent and both sides are VERY good at that type of warfare.
edit: is it just me or did we break font size on this page?
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.21 21:16:00 -
[62]
I think most will agree that the goal of "fixing lag" can not be achieved by just throwing hardware or spiffy software solutions at it.
What we need, and what 0.0 warfare needs, is a mechanic to actually make smaller fleets worthwhile. The current system promotes large fleets, larger than the server can handle. We need a radically new one, or people will just quit.
Every alliance experiences old players, often fcs leaving due to that. When you move a fleet of 100 and it takes you 10 minutes to pass just one system, then that's some strange anomaly. But it hurts, and it hurts badly. We need changes, we need radical changes..but if you'd ask me, i wouldn't know a good answer how it could be done. Splitting fleets is also a logistical problem, it is a whole can of worms for all alliances. But we need something that smaller fleets can do, and we also need mechanics that force large alliances to split, and not send a large fleet nuking every resistance.
We need a change in game mechanics, because no amount of hardware will solve the problem. But, honestly, i have no idea how that could look like. Absolutely no friggin clue. Maybe we really need something that makes holding space exceptionally hard. Where you can't realistically hold more than a few constellations, a region at max, without being terribly vulnerable to guerilla tactics destroying your stuff. Maybe that would be the way to change our problems, but you can tell it would result in a massive whining from all major alliances in the game, and a massive crash of the larger ones. Maybe this is what eve needs, the good ol' days back. I'm "only" a '06 player, but even i have nostalgic memories of "the old days".
We need a radical change, we are not going anywhere in 0.0 with todays sov mechanics. Space has become smaller with jumpbridges, and while nifty, it allows to defend extreme amounts of space even easier.
We need change. And we need it fast, before only the most hardcore players spend weekends on gridloads..or go somewhere else.
(why is this in caod by the way? we have better forums for that..)
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Gumpy Nighthawk
Amarr Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 21:19:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Gumpy Nighthawk on 21/07/2008 21:21:47
Quote: The current state of both of these initiatives is unknown. CCP has asked for proposals to go through the CSM to address the gameplay aspect, and there is little indication on how advanced the Infiniband project is. I think it can safely be assumed that the current status quo will be in place for the next year, however.
Seriously i think this whole CSM is a big fluke, it's nice that a couple of people think they have the power to actually change things ingame, but the fact that they have meetings that almost take as long as a regular working day i really doubt these guys will ever achieve something.
Just think of this, since CCP isn't known for it's fast changes in game, it usually takes half a year if not longer for a decent content update to happen, then by the time 0.0 warfare has changed, another game will probably have risen on the horizon. Actually i do believe ambulation will hit the servers before we will see changes to our type of warfare.
On a side note i don't even understand why i'm somehow unable to cancel my subscriptions, it's not like i have any fun waiting for 15 mins for modules to be turned on, i guess i'm just enjoying the sweet graphics of the chat client called eve.
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Dirtball
PinK TacO Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 21:50:00 -
[64]
Perhaps the problem is for some its more fun winning than having fun while playing the game.
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Selk Cantor
Minmatar Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.21 22:01:00 -
[65]
Lag certainly is the biggest reason you don't have fun pvping in Eve. I don't blame CCP most of the time, because I have yet to play a game that doesn't lag with alot of people in the same zone. Look at how bad WoW used to lag before battlegrounds, when people world pvped. CCP certainly doesn't have the hundreds of millions in cash to blow on hardware Blizzard does, yet they manage almost as well. Sometimes I have to scratch my head though, like emergency warping a few times in Aridia yesterday when I was the only person in the system or there were two others.
It seems mostly just a limit in our current technology. I'm glad they at least kept the DirectX10 graphics optional. Great graphics are cool for a few days, but then you get tired of the load and don't really care if you're character is a cartoon orc. Its especially hard on the smaller corps and players in corps who don't sell them cheap gear, to motivate themselves to go out into a laggy environment and lose a bs they just spent 8 hours ratting to buy. The loss penalty in Eve is harsh and lag makes it even less appealing when you can't even control your ship enough to have a fighting chance.
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Alpha Prime
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.21 22:25:00 -
[66]
Hilmar & Oveur got some explaining to do on fanfest 08.
There is no price on true lojalty
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Junkie Beverage
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.21 22:28:00 -
[67]
lag is my favorite tackler
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King Balthazar
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.21 22:32:00 -
[68]
well i enjoy wachting those eve trailers and tbh i wish fleets battles could be like that in other words i would love to be involve in a 100 vs 100 fleet fight lag free, where the winner is the best group and not the one that knows how to handle lag better. King
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Mei Han
Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.22 06:33:00 -
[69]
I tend to belive that CCP's marketing dep has a lot more funding than the development one. I would like to see new servers after 2 years AND a rewriten game code from scratch. Because the client is responsible for quite a few of the problems that make eve "not as epic as it could be".
But I guess the $5,25M/month (calculated as worse case scenario - that everyone pays with dollar currency) are better spended in fancy patches and adds all over the net.
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Victor Vision
Amarr Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2008.07.23 10:36:00 -
[70]
What is all that fuzz about?
I am the real Victor.
The thread may now be closed.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki |
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Ayeson
Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.07.23 10:37:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Victor Vision Stuff
this!
Bears is Recruiting? |
BobbySteelz
Dirty Deedz
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Posted - 2008.07.23 10:40:00 -
[72]
haven't they been working on a supercomputer or something of the sorts for a bit of time now?
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128th ABC123
Eve Liberation Force Liberty.
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Posted - 2008.07.23 10:50:00 -
[73]
Originally by: MirrorGod Whatever you do, keep your pilots in 0.0 and the lagmunster with them. Don't join Factional Warfare, it sucks. The POS's and Carrier jumps and DDD's are much more fun.
If you stay in C&P...
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New ones
Caldari Koln united
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Posted - 2008.07.23 11:06:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Junkie Beverage lag is my favorite tackler
quoting for the truth!
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Prof Patpending
Warp badgers with guns
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Posted - 2008.07.23 11:38:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Batolemaeus Edited by: Batolemaeus on 21/07/2008 21:16:59 I think most will agree that the goal of "fixing lag" can not be achieved by just throwing hardware or spiffy software solutions at it.
Here come the words people.
OK so lets say a large fleet battle is 250 a side. This would cause the system to lag out horrifically.
Now lets abstract this situation out.
You have 500 Player entities in the system. Also you need to keep states on all towers and tower mods, asteroids, any plexs waiting to be discovered, outposts, rats, Moons, Planets etc...
So just for arguments sake we say there are 5000 objects in one system and each of these objects needs a session to keep track of its status. Thats alot of nuts.
There are current mechanics in game to try and help lag. These being grids and what is know as 'reinforcing' the node. Grid is rather self explanatory as it means the current area of a system where players currently are. 'Reinforcing' is a bit more of a black art. I would expect this means moving a system onto its own physical server to try and give it more resources to run the system and reduce the lag. This helps but is not perfect.
If even on its own hardware a system is lagging due to all the players and asteroids and rats etc... etc... then this leaves three routes.
1. Reduce the size of fleets. Surely this is a no go as it is the huge scale pvp that people look for. There is only so much fun that can be had in a roaming gang compared to a massive battle.
What you could do is rather than reduce the size of the fleets involved is try and spread them about in a system. Example:- Have all active towers in a system require all other active towers to enter reinforced mode within day an hour of each other. A shot tower will regen shields and be immune from hostile or friendly action until it hits 50% shields. This takes 60 minutes. If all active towers in a system are in this regen state at the same time then it goes into old fashioned reinforced. This does have a problem in that systems with lots of moons will be impossible to take. So lets say rather than all towers the minimum in an hour is 4 and any others after the initial 4 where the total number of towers in a system is greater than 4. If it is 4 or less then you need to hit them all.
What does this mean? Well it means that fleets need to be split up to hit multiple targets and defences can concentrate on one to keep the enemy out. This has the side effect of allowing alliances that are under attack by an alliance that is on the otherside of the world a chance to defend their space and not be subject to timezone ping pong.
2. Upgrade the hardware. Yeah that would work until you get more subscribers or the fleets again reach a point where the servers struggle again.
3. Software trickery. As discussed above about how I would see the objects in a system being abstracted you could add if it does not already exist an extension to how the grid system works. Anything not on a player grid that doesn't move? Stick it into the swap/page and leave the RAM free for dynamic elements. System that currently is being contested? No rat spawns. Are you going to stick about and get involved in a fight thats not yours?
In the end the Devs are not gods and I am sure the community when and I include myself in this pull their heads out of their arses and work together to help solve the issues in the game. Either through mechanics changes, code changes or hardware changes and more likely a mixture of all three will the demon of lag be slain. Until then stop whining about it, the players know there is a problem, CCP would be blind to not know there is a problem if you have an idea then give some details on it, how would it work, how would it effect other elements of game play? Hell one of these ideas might get read!
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Lrrp
Minmatar Drahathinar Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.23 15:23:00 -
[76]
How about looking at a Fleet as akin to a drone bay. In short a Fleet could be set up where it can only accept a certain "bandwidth" of players, ships and loadouts. So a BS with 8 turrets would obviously need more bandwidth than a frig with 2 turrets. A carrier capable of assigning X number of fighters would have more bandwidth than a cruiser that can have only 1 drone. I think you get my drift.
So now the FC has to decide how to tailor his fleet for a up coming engagement. Fleets would have enough bandwidth that a ad hoc pickup gang of 15-20 ships would have no problem but a planned fleet of a 100 ships would take some thought.
While I understand multiple fleets would then be formed to increase numbers, still it would force FC's to look at different management schemes to deploy against a target instead of blobbing up a 300 ship fleet and yelling charge. Just some food for thought.
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Avernus
Gallente Imperium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.23 15:37:00 -
[77]
500 man fleet fights would be epic with low lag...
...but I think I'll be sticking to small engagements until CCP comes out with that supercomputer they've been looking into.
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Darc Kaahar
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.23 15:43:00 -
[78]
I did not read this thread. I am just here to say hello.
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bloomich
Caldari In Siders
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Posted - 2008.07.23 16:02:00 -
[79]
Edited by: bloomich on 23/07/2008 16:03:36 Its getting pretty daft all these people arguing the difficulties. Dont argue the difficulties, as the difficulties will argue themselves.
Nobody is intrested in hearing about how "product x" will make your lag whites even whiter. The issue might be the technological one, but the question we need to ask is a management one, which could be something like......
1. How far are we though to implementing something that might be a solution to reducing or eliminating lag?
If the answer is that we are still at the brainstorming stage and that its probebly a couple of years away as a estimated timetable, then thats all we need to know. Because thats what I can gather we really are at currently. Nobody expects a 100% perfect answer to the question, just a guideline.
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Kaaii
Caldari PixelJuice Design Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.23 16:44:00 -
[80]
Maybe CCP just wants us to, say, roll a hundred sided die, for every 100 ships. What you roll is what you kill. Server automatically kills off that many ships of the opposing side. They could do it on point system, 1 pt for frigs, 2 for cruiser etc. Modify that with T1/T2faction/officer mods to the die roll, to mitigate or enhance losses or damages..
Then the fcs just dock up in station, roll the results and the battle is decided.
Wouldn't that be more fun...........
According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
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