| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mia Trask
   |
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:01:00 -
[1]
I thought i would bring this post on mmorpg.com to the communitys attention as I'm not sure i agree with some of it but would like to hear more opinions from eve vets.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2152162
|
Gieron
Middleton and Mercer LLP
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:09:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Mia Trask
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2152162
Linkified.
|
AmosTrask
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:11:00 -
[3]
ahh thanks
|
Malcanis
We are Legend
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:22:00 -
[4]
Excellent post. IMO There's a strong argument for seriously nerfing minerals from mission loot. In fact for basically removing T1 basic mission loot altogether. Mission runners could be compensated with higher LP rewards to make it an ISK-neutral non-inflationary change for them (I think hi-sec L4s give too much ISK/hr but this thread isn't the place for that discussion) - in fact as long as we're tweaking that, how about we remove mission ISK payments altogether: just pay in LP. Anyway, this would raise mineral prices, especially mid-end minerals, making mining in lo-sec and low-quality 0.0 much more viable. It might also make T1 production viable.
As a happy side effect, it might even raise T1 ship prices above their current "~free after insurance" level. Which would throw a bone to those concerned about suicide ganking, I expect.
In fact I can't think of a single downside to this change.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Guillight BLue
Gallente
Secret Society
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:25:00 -
[5]
Very well written post! And oh so true.
The most interesting part in his post and the most shocking is that you can get such a vast amount of ore by reprocessing garbage loot from level4 missions!
It's a real shame. But I guess it's because the VOCAL minority are PVP'ers and like always, devs listen to the VOCAL minority and so they always get priority. As the VOCAL minority will go nasty and give EVE a bad name if they don't get what they want.
So the problem is, that the Miners in EVE don't express themselves much, instead of getting VOCAL too for a change and start spamming the forums, like the PVP'ers do!
It's the only way to get it under attention of the DEV's and get actually something done about it.
So miners! Stand up for yourself and do something about it!
Cheers
___________
|
Lui Kai
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Guillight BLue
Very well written post! And oh so true.
The most interesting part in his post and the most shocking is that you can get such a vast amount of ore by reprocessing garbage loot from level4 missions!
It's a real shame. But I guess it's because the VOCAL minority are PVP'ers and like always, devs listen to the VOCAL minority and so they always get priority. As the VOCAL minority will go nasty and give EVE a bad name if they don't get what they want.
So the problem is, that the Miners in EVE don't express themselves much, instead of getting VOCAL too for a change and start spamming the forums, like the PVP'ers do!
It's the only way to get it under attention of the DEV's and get actually something done about it.
So miners! Stand up for yourself and do something about it!
Cheers
First off - I agree that mining needs to be fixed, so don't take these comments out of context.
Eve is a PVP sandbox game. The PVP focus isn't due to a "vocal minority" - it's due to that being what the devs want the game to be. The "sandbox" part definatly means there's things other than PVP to be done, and those things can be quite fun - but Eve's design is based around combat. Always has been.
----------------
|
Guillight BLue
Gallente
Secret Society
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:35:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lui Kai
Originally by: Guillight BLue
Very well written post! And oh so true.
The most interesting part in his post and the most shocking is that you can get such a vast amount of ore by reprocessing garbage loot from level4 missions!
It's a real shame. But I guess it's because the VOCAL minority are PVP'ers and like always, devs listen to the VOCAL minority and so they always get priority. As the VOCAL minority will go nasty and give EVE a bad name if they don't get what they want.
So the problem is, that the Miners in EVE don't express themselves much, instead of getting VOCAL too for a change and start spamming the forums, like the PVP'ers do!
It's the only way to get it under attention of the DEV's and get actually something done about it.
So miners! Stand up for yourself and do something about it!
Cheers
First off - I agree that mining needs to be fixed, so don't take these comments out of context.
Eve is a PVP sandbox game. The PVP focus isn't due to a "vocal minority" - it's due to that being what the devs want the game to be. The "sandbox" part definatly means there's things other than PVP to be done, and those things can be quite fun - but Eve's design is based around combat. Always has been.
Let me refraise then. The VOCAL Zero Zero PVP crowd. That settles it then.
Fact still remains that the majority of EVE resides in High Sec, either doing missions or just plain mining.
Cheers
___________
|
Malcanis
We are Legend
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:37:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Guillight BLue
Very well written post! And oh so true.
The most interesting part in his post and the most shocking is that you can get such a vast amount of ore by reprocessing garbage loot from level4 missions!
It's a real shame. But I guess it's because the VOCAL minority are PVP'ers and like always, devs listen to the VOCAL minority and so they always get priority. As the VOCAL minority will go nasty and give EVE a bad name if they don't get what they want.
So the problem is, that the Miners in EVE don't express themselves much, instead of getting VOCAL too for a change and start spamming the forums, like the PVP'ers do!
It's the only way to get it under attention of the DEV's and get actually something done about it.
So miners! Stand up for yourself and do something about it!
Cheers
Er, you might note the vocal PvPer's post directly above yours. Just a thought: you'll get much more sympathy and support if you focus on the things you support and advocate rather than complaining about straw-man stereotypes. More than a few PvPers have mining alts, and many more would have them if mining were more profitable.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Guillight BLue
Gallente
Secret Society
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:40:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Guillight BLue on 22/07/2008 08:41:01
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Guillight BLue
Very well written post! And oh so true.
The most interesting part in his post and the most shocking is that you can get such a vast amount of ore by reprocessing garbage loot from level4 missions!
It's a real shame. But I guess it's because the VOCAL minority are PVP'ers and like always, devs listen to the VOCAL minority and so they always get priority. As the VOCAL minority will go nasty and give EVE a bad name if they don't get what they want.
So the problem is, that the Miners in EVE don't express themselves much, instead of getting VOCAL too for a change and start spamming the forums, like the PVP'ers do!
It's the only way to get it under attention of the DEV's and get actually something done about it.
So miners! Stand up for yourself and do something about it!
Cheers
Er, you might note the vocal PvPer's post directly above yours. Just a thought: you'll get much more sympathy and support if you focus on the things you support and advocate rather than complaining about straw-man stereotypes. More than a few PvPers have mining alts, and many more would have them if mining were more profitable.
I don't want to offend anyone. But it's pretty obvious the PVP'ers are and always have been VERY VOCAL.
And frankly. The PVP'ers are pretty much the MOST vocal ones in every MMO with PVP mechanics.
So I don't see any harm in my post as it's just reflecting the truth.
And basically. Being VOCAL seems to be the trend and the way to get anything done these days.
Cheers
___________
|
Squeaky Wheel
Minmatar
FlyinPenguin Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:45:00 -
[10]
I don't mine myself (okay - I will if I'm bored) but it's really nice to see a well thought out and reasonable post in this forum (yes, I realize that it wasn't technically in this forum, but hey...).
Anyway - I agree with the points you brought up, and hope that you keep bringing a bit of sanity to these forums.
|
Tharrn
Amarr
Epitoth Fleetyards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:46:00 -
[11]
The ore distribution was vastly different and less predictable in the beginning. There even used to be high-end ore in some low-sec systems. Somewhere down the line it was changed to this bland, totally predictable system that leaves vast stretches of 0.0 no better than low-sec space.
A more versatile ore distribution system that would have encouraged prospecting was unfortunately never introduced. It was on the grand feature list of some major upgrade (was it Kali?) and was never mentioned ever after.
Now they say systemwide belts might be introduced or mining might completely be shifted to exploration sites. Being on the industrial side for five years I have little hope that much will happen anytime soon though. I'd love to be proven wrong naturally :P
|
Banana Torres
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:50:00 -
[12]
I have another idea.
Get rid of the asteroids, all minerals come from loot.
The main advantage to this is that it would get rid of macro miners and whiney miners.
Ever since I have been playing Eve whiney miners have been whining that they are the forgotten profession.
But of course it is not true, mining barges, mining mind links, the mighty Hulk, etc, etc, etc. Miners are not the forgotten profession.
They are the whiney profession.
|
Malcanis
We are Legend
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 08:56:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Guillight BLue
Doing exactly what mal advised against
I'll just say this: you're talking as if "PvPers" are some homogenous mob. It ain't so.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:00:00 -
[14]
Hello, and welcome to "things a lot of people were saying a year ago".
_
THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
|
Lui Kai
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Guillight BLue
Let me refraise then. The VOCAL Zero Zero PVP crowd. That settles it then.
Ah. No.
See, saying something is so doesn't make it so.
CCP has repeatedly endorsed the view of Eve as a "Harsh, cruel world" - meaning pvp. Mining, trading, missioning - these things don't fall into the "Harsh" or "Cruel" category. They're fun. I do them sometimes, too. Mining defiantly needs some love.
The problem is, we're facing multiple facts:
1. Mining is currently a secondary game focus.
2. Most folks who complain about various mechanics complain about the PVP mechanics.
3. Eve is a PVP game.
2 is not the cause of 1. 3 is.
----------------
|
Karanth
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:05:00 -
[16]
Whiny profession? PvP can't be discussed without someone going into a whiny emorage over nanos or damps or ECM or how NosDomis are too strong or how lasers need a boost or how the Vaga needs a nerf or how the Nidhoggur is crap or how officer smartbombs are too good or how doomsdays need nerfing or how lag killed your fleet or how POS warfare should be more fun....
What have miners asked for? To have months of training not be made useless by an alt in a Raven with a couple levels of battleship skill and a tractor beam. Is that too much to ask?
Calling miners whiny compared to everyone else is a joke, and anyone with eyes to read the forums would know that. People hwhined about Amarr needing a buff for YEARS solidly. We just want to have our skills and abilities be useful, instead of overshadowed by a profession that does something totally different.
Miners don't want solopwnmobiles, or unkillable barges, or a module that mines, refines and sells the ore within 10 AU for us. We just want to be the best at mineral acquisition, which is what miners should be.
|
Lui Kai
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Karanth
We just want to be the best at mineral acquisition, which is what miners should be.
/thread
----------------
|
Ioci
Gallente
Ioci Exploration
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:15:00 -
[18]
Mining is fine, if you can get an Ops together. Eve is Gank, most who try and mine try and solo and it won't work in most of Eve. Neither does anything else though. Try another MMO but any of them that have a PvP side will deal you the same problem. You will get ganked. Not sure what to say.. Make a Single player edition of Eve? |
|
CCP Chronotis
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:15:00 -
[19]
you might want to refer back to the original article at massively by Nyphur (giving credit where it is due).
It is an interesting article with some valid points and good insight. I can wholeheartedly say I agree on many of the issues and am following current discussions in a few threads here on some topics like loot.
|
|
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Banana Torres
I have another idea.
Get rid of the asteroids, all minerals come from loot.
The main advantage to this is that it would get rid of macro miners and whiney miners.
Ever since I have been playing Eve whiney miners have been whining that they are the forgotten profession.
But of course it is not true, mining barges, mining mind links, the mighty Hulk, etc, etc, etc. Miners are not the forgotten profession.
They are the whiney profession.
I don't agree, obviously, but man that made me laugh (in a good way).
Thank you.
I remember when 0.0 was populated by a group of bloodthirsty meatheads (ie, me) continually moaning that they spent all their time protecting useless carebears (ie, miners) whilst they gathered the minerals so desired but unavailable in Empire space.
What happened?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Karanth
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:19:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Banana Torres
I have another idea.
Get rid of the asteroids, all minerals come from loot.
The main advantage to this is that it would get rid of macro miners and whiney miners.
Ever since I have been playing Eve whiney miners have been whining that they are the forgotten profession.
But of course it is not true, mining barges, mining mind links, the mighty Hulk, etc, etc, etc. Miners are not the forgotten profession.
They are the whiney profession.
I don't agree, obviously, but man that made me laugh (in a good way).
Thank you.
I remember when 0.0 was populated by a group of bloodthirsty meatheads (ie, me) continually moaning that they spent all their time protecting useless carebears (ie, miners) whilst they gathered the minerals so desired but unavailable in Empire space.
What happened?
Space got smaller. Between Jump Bridges, Titans moving freighters, and the proliferation of pets, the need to actually mine in 0.0 was reduced.
|
Ioci
Gallente
Ioci Exploration
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:20:00 -
[22]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
you might want to refer back to the original article at massively by Nyphur (giving credit where it is due).
It is an interesting article with some valid points and good insight. I can wholeheartedly say I agree on many of the issues and am following current discussions in a few threads here on some topics like loot.
Thanks for that.
No more leaving loot for me  |
Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Karanth
Originally by: Avon
I don't agree, obviously, but man that made me laugh (in a good way).
Thank you.
I remember when 0.0 was populated by a group of bloodthirsty meatheads (ie, me) continually moaning that they spent all their time protecting useless carebears (ie, miners) whilst they gathered the minerals so desired but unavailable in Empire space.
What happened?
Space got smaller. Between Jump Bridges, Titans moving freighters, and the proliferation of pets, the need to actually mine in 0.0 was reduced.
Hauler spawns certainly play their part as well. While not as predictable as mining or simply reprocessing loot they're not exactly rare either and can bring in a substantial amount of minerals per hauler.
|
Bai ZongTong
The Revolutionary Guard
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:31:00 -
[24]
Extremely well written.
I was coming into the thread prepared for some whine, but.. good work on the arguments.
Not a miner myself but I enjoy blowing up hulks in lowsec =)
---
Want some YARRHHHS?
The Revolutionary Guard Pirate Corp Looking for Members
Uncensored KB |
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Karanth
Space got smaller. Between Jump Bridges, Titans moving freighters, and the proliferation of pets, the need to actually mine in 0.0 was reduced.
Nah, it all stopped way before Titans entered the game, or jump bridges.
I guess the "exclusiveness" of some minerals to 0.0 was eroded to the point where it wasn't rewarding enough for the risk involved.
Shame, the lack of economic migration has really spoiled some of the "danger" feeling of the game.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Karanth
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:44:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Karanth on 22/07/2008 09:44:59
Or maybe miners took it seriously and left? Despite how stupid most people are, get enough abuse telling you you are worthless, and you will leave.
EDIT: "Enough" varies of course from person to person.
|
Lui Kai
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:45:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Lui Kai on 22/07/2008 09:45:29
Originally by: Avon
I guess the "exclusiveness" of some minerals to 0.0 was eroded to the point where it wasn't rewarding enough for the risk involved.
This is what I believe caused it, primarily. The huge zyd/mega crash that the drone regions brought about made 0.0 mining only marginally more profitable than highsec mining.
----------------
|
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 09:52:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lui Kai
[
This is what I believe caused it, primarily. The huge zyd/mega crash that the drone regions brought about made 0.0 mining only marginally more profitable than highsec mining.
It was happening even before then.
I think what killed it on a risk vs reward basis was lvl4 missions.
They were, for the time, very profitable - and refining the loot provided all the minerals required for production, negating the need for minerals from 0.0
Morphite was an attempt to change all that ... but ... um, what happened there?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Cheap Dude
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 10:11:00 -
[29]
Well, I have made some topics and posts about the issue also. There is one thing he did not mention is the need for a second character when mining. Without that second char you are forced to fly up and down to clear the cargohold or face the risk that the ore gets stolen.
Other issue is the PVP options in a barge/exumer or better said the lack off. Where a ratter can defend itself against one or 2 enemies, a barge/exumer is dead on sight.
What me really ticks me off is the very crappy tanking ability of the best tanking exumer, the hulk. There is only 1 setup possible to tank the belts in drone area:
3x T2 strip miners
Pithi A shield booster
2x invul T2
Domi shield boost amp
1x processor
1x T2 shield upgrade
2x CCC rig
And you need max cap and shield skills to use it 
This will be the last post I will make about it because in the end the changes that sell to the masses will get done. I am following the 'if you don't like it, move on' principle. Mining isn't fun anymore and I will move on if mining (industrial) gets an overhaul within this year!
|
ShardowRhino
Caldari
Legion 0f The Damned
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 10:13:00 -
[30]
The basis of the post is off. There is clearly more isk to be made mining in 0.0 then in highsec. You repeatedly said for ccp to change it so that there was a reward for going to lower security areas. The first half of my time in Eve I mined and I made more in lowsec then in empire and i made more in 0.0 then lowsec. Where you get the idea that there isn't a scaling of reward vs risk is unknown to me.
Also you forget risk vs reward also applies to empire. Your not likely going to have to worry about anything in a hulk mining veldspar. You can go afk for whatever reasn and know your ship is going to still be there. You can't do that doing missions. Either your at the keyboard or your dead unless you leave the mission. THeres no afking a mission, I cant set up a BS and have it autokill things for 5minutes and come back and expect it to still be alive.
Going on about L4s, its far more profitable to just leave the loot behind. Instead of wasting up to 50% more time on a mission ,scooping loot and salvaging, you can simply move onto the next mission. Sure you might get a good mod here and there but if you average it out, the idea of leaving that stuff behind heavily outweighs spending time to scoop it.
So those that are stopping to scoop and refine are actually losing out on isk. Simply do another mission and buy what you need. Someone that is refining loot must have some industrial skills to minimize the loss or know someone. That requires skills to make less isk then running another mission. That to me is inefficient unless the person is like me and started out as a miner and then went to missions and pvp.
As for npc pricing, that wouldn't work. I wouldn't want stagnant prices if i were still mining. Supply and demand can really suck or be really great depending on where you are. Even after the mineral crash i was still making more isk mining zydrine and nocx then someone mining in empire. I took a hit to my profit per hour but still came out ahead, enough to justify staying out in lowsec.
I find it complete nonsense that you suggest that ccp buff minerals in empire and everywhere else. I've suggested doing so in low sec to lure people out there but now we have FW and lowsec is crawling with people. The extra profits are there to be made its jst a matter of if you have the balls to go for it. Also if ccp did seriously buff mining across the board, what makes you think these idiots that mine stuff and sell at 50% less then the average price wont somehow kill it? Remember the market crash for high ends wasn't due to low demand, it was there. The problem was the idiots that would sell them dirt cheap just so they can sell 2 seconds faster.
If you want greater profits you need to assume a greater risk. Right now empire mining is the least risky thing you can do in eve. with FW there has to be an increased demand in minerals or there will be once old stocks are sold off. The rate that ships are being destroyed on a daily basis is insane. SOmeone needs to build those ships. Not everyone is looking to stage out of a trade hub.
it sounds as though your real point is that you want to make 20mil afking in empire space. I doubt it has anything to do with lowsec or 0.0 at all because it sounded as though you contradicted yourself mentioning the average of a 0.0 miner yet complaining that miners cant make enough isk.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |