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EVE Evolved: Mining, the forgotten profession

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Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.07.22 15:36:00 - [61] So… …change all NPC loot drops to named only, and tweak the material composition of that loot. It can't be produced anyway, so the composition can be completely nutty without being at odds (from a BP standpoint) with what the regular mods require.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.07.22 15:41:00 - [62] Edited by: Tippia on 22/07/2008 15:41:17 Originally by: Molly Missile If there isn't any barrier besides buying the right ship and mods, how can you call that a PROFESSION? By that logic, there are no professions in EVE.
MinSebsis Minmatar CyPhEr TeChNoLoGiEs EvE Consortium	Posted - 2008.07.22 15:51:00 - [63] Edited by: MinSebsis on 22/07/2008 15:51:53 Hello, I believe that the majority of minerals that EVE uses should come from the mining profession. I donÆt agree that loot/drones should produce more minerals then the mining profession as it is today. There are always people/corps/alliances willing to mine, and most who do it enjoy it as a profession. The can flippers and gankers keep us honest. I do think the mining profession needs to be the majority mineral producing function and it should have been from the beginning. Now CCP has to change it and its going to be very tricky and painful in the short term but will serve EVE in the long term. Take care MinSebsis
Molly Missile	Posted - 2008.07.22 15:56:00 - [64] I can't just skill up to L4 missions. And even if an agent would allow me to run one, I'm not going to be as good at it as you are, Tippia. Whereas, you know as much about mining on day 3 as you will on day 1,000. A miner is as professional as those old ladies who used to sweep the sidewalks of Moscow under Communist rule. Anyone can pick up a broom, and on your 1000th day of sweeping, you'll be no cleverer or more efficient than you were on your 3rd day of sweeping sidewalks. I think mission runners (generally) are far more clever and efficient at what they do on day 1,000 of mission running than on day 3. We need for mining to reward persevering at the activity of mining in a way that semi-AFK loafers can't equal.
Phaige Minmatar Reaver Construction Services	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:03:00 - [65] That depends on how you define proffession Molly. I for one would define a prof miner as someone who: 1) Has top skills (ie Hulk, T2 lasers, etc) 2) Has top refining skills 3) Acutally watches the markets and tailors their output accordingly (be it by isk per hour or a particular mineral that is low in the area or selling for a stupid high price) Basically meaning that you do get more efficient and more clever (if your good at it) as you go along. Any random tool who jumps in a cruiser with t1 lasers on it as a side thing isn't partaking of the Mining Profession imho; perhaps here the occupation designation you mentioned would suffice. ----------------------------------------------- You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper!
Mia Trask	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:13:00 - [66] Thanks to everyone for replying. I'm going to jump off the fence now and add that Iv not reached level 4 missions yet neither am I in a hulk, what I think eve is about is team work and I get the impression that the post iv referred to is about solo play, surely a corp of industry toons with pos's and roquals can out mine a corp of mission runners with salvage and looting. But that wasn't the ops point it was about how mining is a forgotten profession and needs improvement with an example making mining a void profession that is possibly based on conjecture as the op doesn't provide any proof to back up his statements making the whole article a bit trolley. I think if the mining profession was improved any further that the mineral prices would drop due to lack of demand thus reducing market prices to the point where RvR was reduced. A simple solution to everyone's problems would be to make the high end minerals more obtainable to empire miners,less in mission loots or as someone said above make recycling a mini profession thus making eve a happy friendly place again, personally as an industry player I would vote for the latter two as I like the mining profession the way it is and when I mine I do mine for fun as I'm socialising at the same time(or doing housework). I think that the reason mining hasn't been improved is because it was highly advanced (as it could be) in the first place. I would like to see some numbers from players confirming the opinions of the op but they would have to be from people with roughly the same overall skill level to make it accurate. Thanks Trask
Molly Missile	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:13:00 - [67] Originally by: Phaige That depends on how you define proffession Molly. I for one would define a prof miner as someone who: 1) Has top skills (ie Hulk, T2 lasers, etc) 2) Has top refining skills 3) Acutally watches the markets and tailors their output accordingly (be it by isk per hour or a particular mineral that is low in the area or selling for a stupid high price) 1 and 2 fall into the wait for evemon to tell you your skills are ready. 3 uses some common sense, but once again, what's the barrier to entry to the top tiers of mining besides waiting for evemon to tell you that you're ready? Granted, you might argue that mission runners are just grinding, but at least they have to do that to get to L4. I can just skill up to the hulkitude you describe and max refining without ever mining. And my yield of minerals on my third day of mining, will equal my yield on my 1,000th day of mining. So yes, maybe the only player skill needed is #3, getting more for that mineral than someone who is less attentive.
Phaige Minmatar Reaver Construction Services	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:19:00 - [68] Edited by: Phaige on 22/07/2008 16:19:57 Originally by: Molly Missile Granted, you might argue that mission runners are just grinding, but at least they have to do that to get to L4. I can just skill up to the hulkitude you describe and max refining without ever mining. And my yield of minerals on my third day of mining, will equal my yield on my 1,000th day of mining. So yes, maybe the only player skill needed is #3, getting more for that mineral than someone who is less attentive. Hasn't one of the FW tactics for getting the standing been to stick one person running missions with a group docked collecting partial standings? I know I've seen this at least half a dozen times since FW came out in my realativly small sphere of influence. Would this not fall under 'skilling up to the Raven-atud and max dmg without ever running a mission?' ----------------------------------------------- You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper!
Molly Missile	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:23:00 - [69] Never heard of it, but most of what goes on escapes me. Does CCP consider that an exploit?
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:23:00 - [70] Edited by: Tippia on 22/07/2008 16:24:34 Originally by: Molly Missile I can't just skill up to L4 missions. And even if an agent would allow me to run one, I'm not going to be as good at it as you are, Tippia. L4 is just a progression – missioning (the "profession" you're talking about) has the same barrier of entry as mining. There is no "being good" at missions – just having the right equipment and the skills to maximise its effectiveness, just as mining. Missions are entirely scripted and all that is needed is to follow that script. Quote: A miner is as professional as those old ladies who used to sweep the sidewalks of Moscow under Communist rule. Anyone can pick up a broom, and on your 1000th day of sweeping, you'll be no cleverer or more efficient than you were on your 3rd day of sweeping sidewalks. Interesting simile: in both instances, you (incorrectly) assume that experience doesn't matter; that there is no way of being more or less efficient. Quote: I think mission runners (generally) are far more clever and efficient at what they do on day 1,000 of mission running than on day 3. As are miners. On their 1000th day, they'll have the most efficient mining spots bookmarked for each and every ore in the belt; they'll have well-placed cans with supplies; they'll know how to cut down on travel to maximise profits, and how to play the market. On a mission-runner's 1000th day, he'll know the misson's eve-survival URL by heart… Jokes aside, suffice to say that, just as there are good and bad ways of doing missions, there are good and bad ways to mine.
Phaige Minmatar Reaver Construction Services	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:33:00 - [71] Originally by: Molly Missile Never heard of it, but most of what goes on escapes me. Does CCP consider that an exploit? Not that I know of. Its basically just sharing the rewards without sharing the work, so I doubt it. I have no idea the speed at which this works though, Connections Skills and the like dependant, as the person sitting wouldn't be the one getting the unsplit-able story lines. ----------------------------------------------- You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper!
Molly Missile	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:33:00 - [72] Edited by: Molly Missile on 22/07/2008 16:36:27 Edited by: Molly Missile on 22/07/2008 16:34:44 OK, y'all have convinced me. Especially since I failed to consider mission walkthroughs.
Thenoran Caldari Border Rim Enterprises	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:35:00 - [73] Mining does indeed need a boost, although I still mine to produce my own ships for the heck of it, I make more doing missions in my Drake & Rokh, whereas the majority of my SP is in Industry and Science, not warfare skills. Many topics exist about improving mining, but few if any ever got a blue post...come on CCP...after all these PvP changes give Mining some attention, its screaming for it! ------------------------ Ore Depletion Calculator It's life Jim, but not as we know it
Ishkur Policy Research Group	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:43:00 - [74] Just seems to me that the playerbase of EVE is very susceptible to fads. Missions are fads. They get beefed up, and everyone wants to do them. I just came back from a long absence. When I left, in 2004, this game was all about mining. Missions were for losers. I never heard the term "ratting." Killing NPCs was a side bonus to the core focus, which was strip-mining belts for ores. I am not sure that was "fun." That said, I think the complaints might be slightly overblown (sorry). Seems like a case of "you doth protest too much." People still mine, quite a bit. I fly into asteroid belts in Empire and there are teensy little veldspars there, so I don't think the profession has been abandoned. I see plenty of mining ships in Empire space. People apparently are in 0.0 space doing god-knows-what, so they seem to be keeping occupied. And I think it would be hard to build Titans with just mission loot, but maybe I'm wrong. Seems to me that if people are still mining, then it's not as dire as it's been made out to be.
Ishkur Policy Research Group	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:44:00 - [75] Also, there's no "winning" in MMOGs. It's really okay if your neighbor makes more money than you in less time. Do what you enjoy in the game, and don't worry so much about the Joneses. Some advice from a old timer. :)
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:45:00 - [76] missioning is a profession you need to not only have the skills to survive level 4s but work your butt off raising your rep to open up higher level agents, whoever said you can make more isk and mins almost right out of your trial account doing level 4s, have you ever ran missions in your life? takes what a few months of training mining skills and you can go pretty anywhere park your butt and mine. takes what for missioning 6 8 months of grinding your reputation up, leveling your skills up, and collecting the gear and the ships to do level 4s and even longer to do them well. and then when you get good at them and have the best agents unlocked then if you live in empire your stuck in laggy mission hubs where everyone goes for the good quality empire agents. mining you got tons of options, worried about the "rampant" ganking? move a few jumps, move out of the crowded areas and quit whining. And knowing a miner i can tell you he makes a ton more trit and iso and garbage then i get refining junk tho i get more zyd and mega than he does but then i have never sunk sp into reprocessing or refining skills :P.
Thenoran Caldari Border Rim Enterprises	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:46:00 - [77] CCP boosted everything except mining (barges excepted) and as a result, it is lagging behind. Sometimes I wonder if CCP even thinks or cares about Mining, I can't understand why it is still such a 'low-priority' subject after all this time, surely such an iconic and base profession of EVE can merit enough attention... If it remains low-priority for much longer it might as well not exist anymore ------------------------ Ship Yield Calc Improve Mining
Molly Missile	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:48:00 - [78] Originally by: Ishkur Also, there's no "winning" in MMOGs. It's really okay if your neighbor makes more money than you in less time. Do what you enjoy in the game, and don't worry so much about the Joneses. Some advice from a old timer. :) Yes, but when those with more money come by and squash you (repeatedly) with their Titans you discover that there is such a thing as losing.
Ishkur Policy Research Group	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:53:00 - [79] Originally by: Nito Musashi And knowing a miner i can tell you he makes a ton more trit and iso and garbage then i get refining junk tho i get more zyd and mega than he does but then i have never sunk sp into reprocessing or refining skills :P. That's a valid concern in Empire. Can you really get more Mega/Zyd doing missions than mining for it in 0.0? That seems like a bit of a stretch, to be honest. But for me, in 0.9 space doing level 3 missions (tee hee) I'm getting a lot more Mega/Zyd then I'd get mining in those same systems. So I can see that would be a (somewhat) legitimate gripe. But don't NPCs spawn in asteroid belts anymore? Aren't miners getting loot too?
Ishkur Policy Research Group	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:55:00 - [80] Originally by: Molly Missile Originally by: Ishkur Also, there's no "winning" in MMOGs. It's really okay if your neighbor makes more money than you in less time. Do what you enjoy in the game, and don't worry so much about the Joneses. Some advice from a old timer. :) Yes, but when those with more money come by and squash you (repeatedly) with their Titans you discover that there is such a thing as losing. Well, I asked that before. Are people really building Titans with all the ores they refine from mission loot? Some part of me doubts that, but if you say so, I'll take your word for it.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:59:00 - [81] Edited by: Tippia on 22/07/2008 17:02:26 Originally by: Nito Musashi takes what for missioning 6 8 months of grinding your reputation up, leveling your skills up, and collecting the gear and the ships to do level 4s and even longer to do them well The reputation grind takes a couple of days. The skills to survive and out-DPS them takes about as long as getting into a Hulk and getting the refinery skills up to snuff. Beyond that, you're just improving on your margin by taking more skills to lvl V, and that goes for both groups. Quote: and then when you get good at them and have the best agents unlocked then if you live in empire your stuck in laggy mission hubs where everyone goes for the good quality empire agents Funnily enough, the "best" agents only take a day's worth of standings grind more, and quite a few of them are not in laggy mission hubs… Admittedly, you need to know where to look beforehand, so most ineperienced mission runners will be stuck with the obvious (and rather poor) choice of working for the various navies. I guess it could be argued that this is where the experience Molly talks about comes in, but it is no different than a miner knowing which systems contain the best belts in close proximity to good trade routes and/or good refining stations. Quote: mining you got tons of options, worried about the "rampant" ganking? move a few jumps, move out of the crowded areas and quit whining. Mission runners also have a ton of options. Worried about lag? Move out of the crowded areas.
Molly Missile	Posted - 2008.07.22 17:04:00 - [82] Originally by: Ishkur Originally by: Molly Missile Originally by: Ishkur Also, there's no "winning" in MMOGs. It's really okay if your neighbor makes more money than you in less time. Do what you enjoy in the game, and don't worry so much about the Joneses. Some advice from a old timer. :) Yes, but when those with more money come by and squash you (repeatedly) with their Titans you discover that there is such a thing as losing. Well, I asked that before. Are people really building Titans with all the ores they refine from mission loot? Some part of me doubts that, but if you say so, I'll take your word for it. I really don't know, to be honest. I was just teasing you. There may not be "winning", but in PvP-with-consequences (like Eve) I imagine that people probably are getting punished for failing to min-max, when all activities aren't equal.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2008.07.22 17:05:00 - [83] yes many mission runners work for navies because of the LP rewards ships blah blah and there is only one mid level agent in empire for each navy that is going to max your lp and payout for time invested. ya mission runner could farm for the sisters of eve or something but whats the point of that :P. most mission runners want to work for navy or some "official" office that has useful faction ships, ammo, and implants.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.07.22 17:07:00 - [84] The large amounts of unnamed t1 loot that missions drop is a real problem for all industrial aspects of this game. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.07.22 17:10:00 - [85] Originally by: Nito Musashi yes many mission runners work for navies because of the LP rewards ships blah blah and there is only one mid level agent in empire for each navy that is going to max your lp and payout for time invested. True enough, but that also speaks against the supposed cleverness of those mission runners. Other corps in the same faction will offer you the exact same LP stores, and the exact same LP rewards – or even better, at times, since they sit in better systems (be it because the sec rating is lower or because there's less lag, i.e. faster mission turn-around).
Ishkur Policy Research Group	Posted - 2008.07.22 17:47:00 - [86] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Nito Musashi yes many mission runners work for navies because of the LP rewards ships blah blah and there is only one mid level agent in empire for each navy that is going to max your lp and payout for time invested. True enough, but that also speaks against the supposed cleverness of those mission runners. Other corps in the same faction will offer you the exact same LP stores, and the exact same LP rewards û or even better, at times, since they sit in better systems (be it because the sec rating is lower or because there's less lag, i.e. faster mission turn-around). This also works as evidence to my claim that the EVE community has been, as long as I've known it, very into fads. Once a critical mass of people start doing something, everybody does it, and then people say it's a problem. It's the min-maxing issue. If something is 0.00004% better than something else, everybody does it, and calls people "noobs" if they don't join the lemming party. And then others look at that and say, "Well, that thing should get nerfed! Now the thing I am doing, which used to be 0.0000004% better than everything else, is not the 'top dog' and I'm feeling unappreciated." I guess this happens in all MMOGs, but with EVE's very number-heavy gameplay, I think it's more pronounced here than elsewhere.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2008.07.22 17:55:00 - [87] honestly every mmo in the history of time has been about fads, human culture in general also. fotm archers, mages, paladins, rogues, mining, missioning, nos, nano, blob, gank, whine, cheese, coke, pepsi, cake.
Karok Vilneram State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.22 18:09:00 - [88] Mining needs a boost. I have 4 accounts. My main (this character isn't it) is my oldest character with over 23 million SP and has awesome skills (not maxed however) in a Hulk and has been mining since her first day. She is also my exploration character and makes better ISK doing that. She also flys a CNR with max missile skills and a faction tank and faction launchers. She can fly a Golem but my CNR does good enough. My other alt is my Hauler in a Bustard (not that hard to max out the hauling of one of these ships once you can get in one) and she also has 22 million SP and flys Caldari and Gallente BSes (both at lvl 5) and Jump Freighters. She also has Tech 2 Large Hybrids and Tech 2 Heavy drones. I use her as my combat ship in an unrigged Ferox to clear exploration plexes and she run lvl 4 missions with the Main character with a max skilled Rokh. This character is my third character and is a full PvP alt that has awesome leadership skills and sits in a Damnation with Mining bonuses and mining links to give bonuses while mining. This character also flys an Abbadon in lvl 4 missions he has awesome gunnery skills. He is about 18 million SP and fully Amarr specced. My fourth and newest character is only a few months old and JUST got into a Hulk. Mining is ALL he can do. He was created from the start to mine. I made him so the bonuses from the Damnation would matter more and I could REALLY strip out belts. I make the most ISK running 3 accounts mission running. I make nearly as good ISK doing exploration sites and I can do it semi-AFK as I run scans. (every 180 seconds) I make the least ISK in high sec stripping belts bare with a Hauler and two hulks and a Foreman in a Damnation giving bonuses. Mining needs to be fixed. When I need minerals... I just run missions instead.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.07.22 18:27:00 - [89] Originally by: Cor Aidan An interesting read, but I think there are some flawed assumptions. First of all, it will never be possible (on average, individual cases may always be an exception) for miners to make more isk than mission runners. Why? All isk comes from missions, bounties, and insurance. Pure miners lose ships far too infrequently for insurance to be a source of income. Mission runners and PVPers need isk to buy minerals and other things. Since the isk supply available to isk-generators must be split between minerals and other things, pure mining will never (theoretically) yield the same income as the other professions. Second, minerals are a commodity, and improvements in technology (exhumers, T2 mining crystals, etc.) have increased productivity of miners. The linked article even states that (paraphrase) "when the NPC mineral buy orders changed, the market immediately went to prices based on supply and demand." And, lo and behold, those prices were different than people expected. This means that there will always be downward pressure on minerals as people value other activities higher than prices for minerals. I have seen many threads on opinions regarding mineral availability, but I don't think there are any true solutions. Suggestions such as removal of T1 loot drops will probably have Unintended Consequences (probably of the Major variety). For instance, given that people that make isk have to split their isk between minerals, ships, skillbooks, insurance, clones, station rental, whatever, increasing the prices of minerals will likely reduce the demand: people may start being more cautious with their ships and so lose fewer, people may not afford ships as quickly so have to run L3 missions instead of L4 and so reduce isk flow into the economy as a whole...those are just two possible outcomes, neither of which in the long term benefit the EVE economy as a whole. In the very short term, in fact, the immediate result will be massive inflation (until the traders take a bunch of isk out of circulation) because "more isk chasing fewer goods" will cause a shock to the market, resulting in a new equilibrium between supply and demand at some likely higher price level. This level will then probably start to reduce as people start mining for themselves, which will both reduce isk flow into the system and increase supply of minerals. Removing T1 loot will also probably decrease the "standard of living" in EVE, making it more difficult to get into larger ships. Simply stated: There is no way, in the long term, to increase the relative isk available to miners in aggregate to the same or higher level than is available to mission running and ratting professions (in aggregate) since the spoils of mission running/ratting/PvP must be split between minerals and other goods and services. Incorrect. Insurance income is quite workable if the mineral prices move any lower. You cannot just look at ships lost to normal operation. Incurance collecting is the best way for miners/producers to get ISK independent of mission runners. Remember that insurance payout is based on original base prices. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.07.22 18:46:00 - [90] Originally by: CCP Chronotis you might want to refer back to the original article at massively by Nyphur (giving credit where it is due). Thanks Chronitis. I can't believe people are plagioarising my work but I guess that means it's worth plagiarising ^^; It's not the first time I've seen my work posted uncredited on other websites, unfortunately. One site went as far as to run all of my articles through a thesaurus until they were almost unreadable. Pillowsoft - Join the Pillowsoft Gallente Militia, get free ships and support.

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