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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.07.22 18:56:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Molly Missile
Originally by: Phaige
That depends on how you define proffession Molly. I for one would define a prof miner as someone who:
1) Has top skills (ie Hulk, T2 lasers, etc)
2) Has top refining skills
3) Acutally watches the markets and tailors their output accordingly (be it by isk per hour or a particular mineral that is low in the area or selling for a stupid high price)
1 and 2 fall into the wait for evemon to tell you your skills are ready.
3 uses some common sense, but once again, what's the barrier to entry to the top tiers of mining besides waiting for evemon to tell you that you're ready?
Granted, you might argue that mission runners are just grinding, but at least they have to do that to get to L4. I can just skill up to the hulkitude you describe and max refining without ever mining. And my yield of minerals on my third day of mining, will equal my yield on my 1,000th day of mining.
So yes, maybe the only *player* skill needed is #3, getting more for that mineral than someone who is less attentive.
Miners get ganked and come to the forums and cry.
Mission Runners get ganked and come to the forums and cry.
Both learn that they need to learn some pvp skills to survive in EVE, or they leave.
Mission Runners put their skill plan in EVE mon and run missions till they can AFK solo lvl 4's.
Mission Runners are NPC miners. Their ore's are NPC bounties, salvage, and loot/minerals.
Miners have to split profits among others, Mission Runners do not.
Loot refine numbers need to be re-evaluated.
Slade
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self" |
Karok Vilneram
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:15:00 -
[92]
Please don't group all Mission runners into a catagory and also do the same with Miners.
Like I said, I mine, I explore, I mission run, I PvP, I do POS logistics, I have done everything in EVE since 2006 except cap ship warfare and 0.0 territory warfare. I have this 18 million SP character dedicated fully to PvP with Amarr ships.
Next time you see a miner in a belt just know he could be the alt of someone that plays all aspects of the game.
There are many like me. Some don't use as many alts but do it all on one character. But just remember, we are many.
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Thor Mcallen
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:15:00 -
[93]
As an industrialist (I belive Im poasting on an alt) This makes me severly depressed :(
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Cor Aidan
KNIGHT'S OF THE ROUND ROOM
ReZZerecteD AlckemisTs
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:24:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Cor Aidan
Incorrect. Insurance income is quite workable if the mineral prices move any lower. You cannot just look at ships lost to normal operation. Incurance collecting is the best way for miners/producers to get ISK independent of mission runners. Remember that insurance payout is based on original base prices.
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Cheap Dude
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:28:00 -
[95]
Another nice fact.. the rats drop better loot then industrialists can build 
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:32:00 -
[96]
I agree whole heartedly that mining is in dire need of revamping. It is perhaps the single most expensive profession in the game when all angles are taken into account that provides the least amount of reward.
I used to be a fanatical miner but quit a few days before the first jihadswarm campaign to begin my mission running life. During that time it took me 2 accounts and one year to achieve what should have been a lucrative life style and was sorely disappointed when I finally realized I had blown over 1.5 billion isk in ships, skills and equipment on the profession and was only netting about 400 million isk a month where as mission running I can net 2 to 2.5 billion a month.
A miner, either solo or a corp fundamentally needs several ship types and skills.
1. They need a miner, preferably a hulk with the pilot pimped out to use t2 equipment and crystals. I would say a serious mining corp would need at least 5 hulk pilots with maybe several lesser miner pilots in various types of ships.
2. They need an industrial hauler, preferably a iteron 5 pilot with cargohold II expanders. If you figure the time it takes to fill 8 GSCÆs then your looking at 1 iteron 5 pilot for every two or three hulk pilots, this number also increases based on how long it takes the iteron pilot to travel to the drop off point then get back into position for the hulk pilots.
3. They need a freighter with a pilot at skill 4 to transport the ore to the refining location and or to transport it to market.
4. They need a rep of 6.75 with a corp or their own POS (with the POS being obsurd to have in High sec considering the time differences in processing)
If they want to go the extra mile they need additional ships and skills.
5. A covert opts ship and probes for locating gravimetric sites
6. A fleet command ship and reverent modules and skills.
So basically, to be a serious miner or mining corporation you need 5 different ship types and skill trees and a rep that you can only obtain from running missions (a rather interesting irony).
The real kicker is that all of this amounts to jack as you have to depend on the environment. Ore respawns Mondays and Fridays. That means from Monday to Friday you have 4 days until respawn and 3 days from Friday to Monday. Each day that a asteroid does not go mined a little bit of ore is added into it, however if it is popped no ore is added until the next respawn and unfortunately the common practice in high sec is to pop the rock. Further complicating things is that because of this practice, most asteroid belts that are regularly mined by either pimped out miners, corps or marcos, typically donÆt last more than a day. This means that quite often for several days the asteroid belt doesnÆt even exist.
Sure you can search for grav sites and maybe get lucky and find that special one with 0.1 sec ore in it, but the odds of hitting that site are slim and when you take into account the amount of time to find the site you could have used it to do other more profitable things.
Now the question you need to ask is why spend all that isk and skill trees when you can just train for a few months to fly a raven and go do L4 missions and make 50 million a night for 4 hours a night as opposed to maybe 20-30 mill for the same length of time? WhatÆs more you get the added bonus of rep and LP, so eventually you can plant a POS in high sec, get the rep for a jump clone and then turn around and sell that rep as a service and make passive cash by running missions, two things you never will get from mining.
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To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Petra Arkania
Minmatar
Ajo Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:35:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Guillight BLue
I don't want to offend anyone. But it's pretty obvious the PVP'ers are and always have been VERY VOCAL.
That's because the miners fell asleep about an hour ago watching television.
Quote:
And frankly. The PVP'ers are pretty much the MOST vocal ones in every MMO with PVP mechanics.
Because they're often the ones who invest the most risk and receive the least reward. Look at World of Warcraft - Blizzard finally listened and started implementing PvP-centric gameplay elements which gave rewards equivalent to PvE and the battlegrounds haven't been empty since. It's almost like what the playerbase is asking for is to be rewarded for their actions which are demonstrably more difficult then beating on poorly AI'd mobs.
Quote:
And more importantly. We can all agree on that the miners have been very silent along these years compaired to the PVP'ers.
Mining is a pointless gameplay mechanic that should be excised and replaced with NPC miners under the direction of PC corporations. Imagine how neat that would be! You form a corporation and the CEO gets a batch of NPC mining vessels and trading vessels that he/she can direct around the universe. Suddenly the corporation's job is the protection and maintenance of their logistical backbone from NPC's and other PC's while the NPC's do the boring job.
Oh man, that sounds like it would be fun, rather than sitting and staring at a rock while you thumb through War and Peace a third time.
Quote:
And that shows in how things have been priorised and adressed along the way by CCP.
Appealing to the "Mining Crowd" does not seem to increase EVE's playerbase. Appealing to the "PvP Crowd" seems to have done them well.
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Haclya
Caldari
The Red Ring
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:36:00 -
[98]
This Tread Gets my support.
We need do some thing about mining.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:38:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Ore respawns Mondays and Fridays. That means from Monday to Friday you have 4 days until respawn and 3 days from Friday to Monday. Each day that a asteroid does not go mined a little bit of ore is added into it, however if it is popped no ore is added until the next respawn and unfortunately the common practice in high sec is to pop the rock.
The reason this is common practice in high sec is because most asteroids respawn every day, not twice a week…
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:44:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Jacob Mei on 22/07/2008 19:45:35
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Ore respawns Mondays and Fridays. That means from Monday to Friday you have 4 days until respawn and 3 days from Friday to Monday. Each day that a asteroid does not go mined a little bit of ore is added into it, however if it is popped no ore is added until the next respawn and unfortunately the common practice in high sec is to pop the rock.
The reason this is common practice in high sec is because most asteroids respawn every day, not twice a weekà
Where do you mine then. Because during my time as a miner I mined in several regions in atleast 3 empires (gallente, amarr and khaind) and towards the end practiced nomadic mining (as soon as a system feel below a certain yeld I moved one) and I can tell you I never -once- saw a belt respawn save on those two days. Because of where I live and at the time I would mine shortly after the servers came back up so it would be impossible for those belts to be mined out litterally minutes after the server came on.
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To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:01:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Where do you mine then. Because during my time as a miner I mined in several regions in atleast 3 empires (gallente, amarr and khaind) and towards the end practiced nomadic mining (as soon as a system feel below a certain yeld I moved one) and I can tell you I never -once- saw a belt respawn save on those two days. Because of where I live and at the time I would mine shortly after the servers came back up so it would be impossible for those belts to be mined out litterally minutes after the server came on.
Caldari space.
Also, since you use the passive tense, how long ago was it you last did any mining?
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:09:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Where do you mine then. Because during my time as a miner I mined in several regions in atleast 3 empires (gallente, amarr and khaind) and towards the end practiced nomadic mining (as soon as a system feel below a certain yeld I moved one) and I can tell you I never -once- saw a belt respawn save on those two days. Because of where I live and at the time I would mine shortly after the servers came back up so it would be impossible for those belts to be mined out litterally minutes after the server came on.
Caldari space.
Also, since you use the passive tense, how long ago was it you last did any mining?
Its been 3 months sence I used my hulk, however during the summer I have practiced afk mining into an iteron while working near the computer, so about a week ago and I still have seen the same situation as I have stated above.
I also find it hard to believe that caldari space would be exempt from this rule where as the rest of the galaxy is not.
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To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:20:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
I also find it hard to believe that caldari space would be exempt from this rule where as the rest of the galaxy is not.
If Caldari belts respawn every day then CCP has some splainin' to do, cause every belt I've ever mined (including the one I'm sitting in right now) has only respawned on monday and friday. For instance, I sucked all the scordite out of this one yesterday and I sure don't see any here today.
Anyway, mining doesn't need a buff as such, because if you enable miners to pull in bigger yields it'll only drive mineral prices down and then we're back to square one. And honestly, I'm cool with the middling income I get from mining because it keeps me interested in progressing up the industrial career chain; I'd hate to think I'd already gotten as far as I need to go.
Rather than buffing mining, nerf L4s and the rest will sort itself. 
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Stormwind Bloodfeather
Minmatar
Sogdian Traders Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:25:00 -
[104]
I have 4 accounts, with characters on each account holding different functions. This character is the Mission Runner, I have an alt that is in a Retriever and currently skilling for a freighter, then she will move on the exhumers. Another alt is used for reprocessing and manufacturing and the last alt is a dedicated hualer flying an Iteron V, a blockade runner and is skilling for jump freighters.
I make more isk running lvl 2-3 missions, than my mining alt, in the same amount of time. I get a wider spread of minerals from the reprocess and have been building a small but steady supply of ships, using only reprocessed minerals, and the tritanium and pyerite my mining alt mines.
I have not once considered mining to be a "fast" money maker. What it is though is a nice, slow, steady income. I mine when i'm not up to running missions (hangovers ftw), and while I don't ever expect to get rich doing it, it does what it should do. Provides minerals, and a slow steady income.
I'd like to see it revamped a little yes, but in my personal opinion, mining was never designed to "make you rich" it was designed to be a corporate support profession.
Storm
In EVE, your only friend is your ship and it's weapons. All others are the enemy! |
Karok Vilneram
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:32:00 -
[105]
I just started doing exploration and I am really having fun with it.
My main (this is my PvP alt) is a top notch miner. I also have another character for hauling and another miner as well. This character is the foreman in a Command Ship running links.
It would be really cool if MORE belts were found in Grav sites in high sec. Don't make them special ore, just massive amounts of Dense Veldspar.
When I mission run I have no limit to what i can do in a day in my home system. My agent never runs out of missions.
When I mine I am foreced to stop when the system is mined out or if someone else mined out the system before I got there.
I don't like how there is a limit to mining besides the amount of time a miner wants to put into it.
Buff high sec belt exploration! We want massive Veld rocks floating through empty space!
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:35:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Stormwind Bloodfeather
I'd like to see it revamped a little yes, but in my personal opinion, mining was never designed to "make you rich" it was designed to be a corporate support profession.
Storm
IT losses even that when you take into account the fact that you can have your mission runners give you the useless minerals to be recycled into their base minerals at 100% with certain skills.
Mission runners get instant isk, LP and rep for a 200 million or so isk investment that can be earned back in 3-4 days where as a hulk takes a week to two weeks and even longer if you factor in the entire cost of a full blown corporate mining operation.
Why tell your corp mates to mine when you can tell them to hand over all the useless modules to you for refinement and in exchange they get so much more for their time as well learn basic combat skills?
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To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Karanth
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:39:00 -
[107]
Just saying: Making more ISK/hour is not being better at getting minerals than mission runners. ISK never enters the equation. It's about being made obsolete before you are even finished training.
The mining missions go a good way, though. I've done some for the last couple days, and I'm impressed.
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:44:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Why tell your corp mates to mine when you can tell them to hand over all the useless modules to you for refinement and in exchange they get so much more for their time as well learn basic combat skills?
I knew that was getting crazy when I found myself recommending L4 "mining ops" to my CEO: one tank BS, one DPS BS, one remote repping drone boat, two salvagers. Payout gets split, shooters get the bounties, salvagers get the salvage, corp gets the loot.
He hasn't gone for it yet but I'm thinking we could at least cut our high end purchases by 50%.
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:44:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Karanth
Just saying: Making more ISK/hour is not being better at getting minerals than mission runners. ISK never enters the equation. It's about being made obsolete before you are even finished training.
The mining missions go a good way, though. I've done some for the last couple days, and I'm impressed.
I think the isk/hour ratio has everything to do with this. EvE is at its core PVP. PVP costs money. The faster you can make money the faster you can pvp or support pvp or whatever it is you are aiming for. If after a year of devoting training time to a profession you only yeld 10 million or so an hour after an investment that can well exceed over a billion than something is certainly wrong.
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To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Stormwind Bloodfeather
Minmatar
Sogdian Traders Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:44:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Karanth
The mining missions go a good way, though. I've done some for the last couple days, and I'm impressed.
Unless I just haven't noticed it, mining missions don't increase your sec. status though.
In EVE, your only friend is your ship and it's weapons. All others are the enemy! |
Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:48:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Why tell your corp mates to mine when you can tell them to hand over all the useless modules to you for refinement and in exchange they get so much more for their time as well learn basic combat skills?
I knew that was getting crazy when I found myself recommending L4 "mining ops" to my CEO: one tank BS, one DPS BS, one remote repping drone boat, two salvagers. Payout gets split, shooters get the bounties, salvagers get the salvage, corp gets the loot.
He hasn't gone for it yet but I'm thinking we could at least cut our high end purchases by 50%.
Not only that but your corp members get Rep and LP. The more rep they get the higher it gets which translates to a high rep for the corporation as a whole. This in turn means that at some point the corporation gets enough rep to put a POS in high sec for research and whatever to make even more isk.
The LP your members get can be spent on anything the LP store provides, implants, faction ammo, ships and what not and all it really costs is the ammo spent to kill the rat plus the initial ship investment, and even THAT can be lowered if one uses T1 laser crystals!
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To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:48:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
If Caldari belts respawn every day then CCP has some splainin' to do, cause every belt I've ever mined (including the one I'm sitting in right now) has only respawned on monday and friday. For instance, I sucked all the scordite out of this one yesterday and I sure don't see any here today.
Well, I guess I just have to go out and suck up a belt and report back tomorrow 
All I know is that my bookmarks showing how many high-yield asteroids are close to that spot have never had any less than the "correct" number of roids close to them right after downtime…
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.07.22 20:55:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Tippia
Well, I guess I just have to go out and suck up a belt and report back tomorrow
... and in the spirit of scientific inquiry I may have to do the unspeakable and (gasp!) go mine in Caldari space.
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Empyre
Domestic Reform
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Posted - 2008.07.22 21:02:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Empyre on 22/07/2008 21:02:17
Originally by: Malcanis
IMO There's a strong argument for seriously nerfing minerals from mission loot. In fact for basically removing T1 basic mission loot altogether. Mission runners could be compensated with higher LP rewards to make it an ISK-neutral non-inflationary change for them (I think hi-sec L4s give too much ISK/hr but this thread isn't the place for that discussion) - in fact as long as we're tweaking that, how about we remove mission ISK payments altogether: just pay in LP. Anyway, this would raise mineral prices, especially mid-end minerals, making mining in lo-sec and low-quality 0.0 much more viable. It might also make T1 production viable.
As a happy side effect, it might even raise T1 ship prices above their current "~free after insurance" level. Which would throw a bone to those concerned about suicide ganking, I expect.
In fact I can't think of a single downside to this change.
other than it doesn't fix the problem by balancing the two? you want to completely change one benefit at the expense of another. maybe to you, no money and all LPs is a good idea, but you're thinking incredibly one-track.
what about people who use mission loot to supply their corp/alliance disposable fleets and new characters? what about the people that run them for isk? nerfing the hell out of missions is going to do nothing but cause a mass exodus of one profession for the other.
balance, not nerfing. good article, although it makes it sound like you can easily run missions and supply your production profession 100% with minerals required. it will take you in upwards of 10 or so L4 missions, depending on faction you are fighting, to get the mins required for a BS build. and yes, i have PE5 and refining skills. thats a lot of mission running for the casual to moderate player with a job or a family.
You're doing it wrong. |
Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.07.22 21:15:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Empyre
it will take you in upwards of 10 or so L4 missions, depending on faction you are fighting, to get the mins required for a BS build.
You say that like it's a lot, but if you're building a BS out of nothing but mins you mine in high sec (plus zyd and mega from either market or missions) you're looking at close to three hours on pyroxeres alone, then closer to four hours on plag and scordite... then you've got isogen to take care of and you may have to top off your trit a little.
And if that still manages to take less time than your 10 missions remember that the high sec miner gets to pay for his high ends and doesn't get paid mission rewards and bounties on top of all that.
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.22 21:24:00 -
[116]
In 10 L4 missions, assuming about 6000 LP a mission, you can earn enough LP to grab 2 faction spec frigates which can in then be sold for 40 million a piece. Taking costs into account you would earn a little under 60 million isk which would be more than enough to buy whatever minerals you still need for the BS. Alternatively, 60 million would be enough to buy a domi bs in certain regions.
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To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.07.22 21:41:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
So, in 10 missions, assuming 4-5 missions a night at about 4 hours a night, would take you 2-3 days to earn enough resources, both isk and minerals, to get likely 3 battleships without fittings.
... and that's assuming you're paying retail rather than buying mins and building the things yourself.
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.22 21:51:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
Originally by: Jacob Mei
So, in 10 missions, assuming 4-5 missions a night at about 4 hours a night, would take you 2-3 days to earn enough resources, both isk and minerals, to get likely 3 battleships without fittings.
... and that's assuming you're paying retail rather than buying mins and building the things yourself.
Which you could then turn around and sell for more profit.
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To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.22 21:54:00 -
[119]
…also, if I you want to turn LP into ISK, faction frigs isn't exactly the best way to go. Their conversion rate is apallingly low, and if you look around (and have a bit of patience), you can quite easily get ten times the cash.
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.22 22:12:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Tippia
àalso, if I you want to turn LP into ISK, faction frigs isn't exactly the best way to go. Their conversion rate is apallingly low, and if you look around (and have a bit of patience), you can quite easily get ten times the cash.
Yeah you can likely make more selling skill books and faction ammo in certain locations though I was making a point.
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To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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