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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.24 17:43:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: TheG2
I say nearly, because while the forums love to play up suicide ganking as if it were happening at every gate in Eve, it isn't profitable and the rules of Sec status prevent you from engaging in it permanently.
Really? then the players that lock my hauler every day must be all losers incapable of getting how the game work.
Or maybe you are very bad at it?
Seriously, the cost is almost 0 thank to the insurance, and with a minimum of intelligence you gan make a lot of isk.
You can call it boring and I would concur, waiting at a gate to get the right target, knowing perfectly how it would end (target ship dead, your ship dead, alt scooping the loot) should be one of the most boring things to do.
But calling it "not profitable" is a bald faced lie.
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Randibuggah
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Posted - 2008.07.24 17:47:00 -
[32]
Originally by: TheG2
Was just reading a post regarding ice mining and mining in general losing profitability (besides being incredibly boring) due to the fact the market is flooded with Macro miners.
What if NPC corps worked like Rookie chat, you could only stay in it so long before you were kicked out and forced into your own little corp (same rules, you can be war dec'd etc). This would allow people to war dec the macro pilots and would help put a damper on the Macro effort that is still going strong in Eve.
Sure some carebears might whine about losing their protection, but it makes little sense for people to be immune from wars anyways. And it'll be a boost to player corporation populations.
Interesting idea .. .... but it's never going to happen. Thep possibilities for widespread griefing is too great. Can you imagine the field day that highsec suicide squads would have if everyone had to be in some kind of player controlled corp without the immunity to WarDec's that NPC corps have?
Ye gods.. the carnage... and the resultant wave of cancellations would give the CEO of CCP a heart attack...
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.24 17:54:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Richard Angevian
Originally by: Loyal Servant
Never happen.
CCP don't really care about farmers despite the fact that because they do not care about them we have isk selling sites that steal peoples' info.
<snip>
The biggest problem that has come to pass is the massive GTC isk cleansing operations... it has grown the population of farmers and their ability to stay hidden and in game farming 23/7
CCP honestly doesn't care because they are making money of selling ISK themselves with the recent GTC increases. Now that GTC's are more expensive than regular subscriptions about all they are going to be bought for is to buy ISK with. Which is why I disagree with CCP's "stance" on RMT, which really isn't one, they are only against RMT that doesn't involve THEM collecting the money, effect on the game economy be dammed! RMT is either bad for EVE or it isn't. If it's bad (and I believe it is) then it's bad regardless of WHO is doing it, be it CCP or some ChiCom farmer outfit.
This is the usual, uninformed, argument. CCP is selling game time. They gain more selling it directly than selling GTC through retailers. So CCP has no interest in pushing GTC sales.
They have implemented the GTC to isk exchange between players only because it was already done and there were a lot of scam selling used or false codes.
The "righteous" people that rise in arms against GTC sales is simply risible. Removing the option of the safe trade of GTc will only increment scams and people getting ripped by people offering false codes.
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.24 18:03:00 -
[34]
Edited by: McDonALTs on 24/07/2008 18:03:53
OP has not got a clue about ice mining etc.
His idea does not stop macroers at all. High Sec Ice mining is worth crap because its low sec/0.0 ice that brings in more products that are in demand. And most alliances etc have their own deal with people living in their space to mine ice for them etc.
Next, NPC corps will not effect 0.0 wcs raven isk farmers, and they will not effect people selling motherships for $$$ etc (which is how they avoid a paper trail). These two are where almost all ebay/online isk and $$$ for eve stuff comes from.
Macro'ers would simple make 10 Player corps and corp hop betweem then (which is legal as long s the ceo does not corp hop). So this means that your maximum 3 wardec limit is useless vs 10 noob-alt ceo's, since its legal for the role-less members to instatly jump from corp to corp.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.07.24 18:13:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Molly Missile
Edited by: Molly Missile on 24/07/2008 14:06:30
There are many solutions to macro-mining that don't involve forced PvP. I sometimes wonder if people just hate immunity in general.
A simple alternative would be to be able to target the player and click on a "report macro" option (just like we can "block" people in chat). Anyone targeted this way could get a pop-up that makes them type in one of those squiggly word codes we enter when we're creating accounts somewhere). Put a timer on it, and people who fail get some personal attention from CCP. Of course, nuisance spamming of the "report macro" function would also be punishable.
There are probably simpler and better solutions than mine, but let's not let macro mining serve as an excuse to turn Eve into forced PvP (without even Concord consequences).
btw, ending immunity overall may have its good points, but would change the game radically for many players. I just don't think macro-mining is a reason for it.
easy fix to the abuse, make it so trial accounts can not report.
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Dramaan
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Posted - 2008.07.24 18:22:00 -
[36]
If any one stay to long in npc corp they shod after 6 weeks get transfer to fw corp for that faction 
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Pwett
Minmatar
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.07.24 18:25:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tarminic
Macroers would just create corps with names like skdjflskj1, skdjflskj2, skdjflskj3, skdjflskj4, etc and immediately move to them, invalidating the war declaration and making it impossible to fire a shot at them.
Yes, but not only is this an exploit, there's also a good damn chance it will show up on the logs 
_______________
Pwett
CEO, Founder, & Executor
<Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.24 18:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Pwett
Originally by: Tarminic
Macroers would just create corps with names like skdjflskj1, skdjflskj2, skdjflskj3, skdjflskj4, etc and immediately move to them, invalidating the war declaration and making it impossible to fire a shot at them.
Yes, but not only is this an exploit, there's also a good damn chance it will show up on the logs
Only if they disband the old corporation.
There is no exploit in forming a new one and moving all but one person out of it.
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Lemptie
Gallente
Glass House
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Posted - 2008.07.24 18:35:00 -
[39]
Maybe it`s a start that when you are in a NPC you only can open your own cans.You only can salvage your own wrecks and zo on.Why? ,because when your in a NPC your alone,when you wanna work together join a corp.Not even in gang the can do shit.
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Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.24 18:39:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 24/07/2008 18:39:45
Originally by: McDonALTs
words
Yanno they can fix corp hopping while they are at it.
Also arn't you a valid wartarget after leaving a corp that got wardec'd for 24 hours?
Personally I think the wardec system is trash, and needs to be reworked. It functions more as a grief mechanic for empire corps.
NPC corps however offer too much protection in eve. So much so that many people with players in player corps prefer to have an alt or two in an NPC corp to do empire operations. It can be really hard to shut down a 0.0 alliances empire logistics if they run their logistics through the NPC corps. This makes them immune to all but suicide ganking attacks.
If you an an actual new player in eve you should be given extra protections to get on your feet yes. (By the way a Hulk pilot is not a noob, thats past the noob stage). The NPC corps are fine for that.
I dont really have a good solution here, but one way would be to punish those who stay in NPC corps with additional taxes based on the total time your player has been active in the game. Like your tax rate would increase by 0.01% on everything every 40 hours of gametime. Leaving the NPC corp and rejoining this will not reset that tax rate, but while you are in a player corp you pay the player corps taxes (as current). Cap this tax rate at 10% and have it apply to every possible transaction (for item trading, tax max 10% of the raw mineral value of the item being traded).
This puts players in the NPC corp at a market disadvantage. But in an RP sense makes sense due to the extra protections they get over player corps. If you want to mission level 4's in a NPC corp player fine. But pay 10% on your bounties, and 10% on your market orders. Its only fair due to the risk factor of you doing vs someone in a corp who could be wardec'd. risk=reward right?
(BY NPC corp I mean non FW NPC corp those have risks inherent to those corps)
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.24 18:52:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Draygo Korvan
Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 24/07/2008 18:39:45
Originally by: McDonALTs
words
Yanno they can fix corp hopping while they are at it.
Also arn't you a valid wartarget after leaving a corp that got wardec'd for 24 hours?
Personally I think the wardec system is trash, and needs to be reworked. It functions more as a grief mechanic for empire corps.
NPC corps however offer too much protection in eve. So much so that many people with players in player corps prefer to have an alt or two in an NPC corp to do empire operations. It can be really hard to shut down a 0.0 alliances empire logistics if they run their logistics through the NPC corps. This makes them immune to all but suicide ganking attacks.
If you an an actual new player in eve you should be given extra protections to get on your feet yes. (By the way a Hulk pilot is not a noob, thats past the noob stage). The NPC corps are fine for that.
I dont really have a good solution here, but one way would be to punish those who stay in NPC corps with additional taxes based on the total time your player has been active in the game. Like your tax rate would increase by 0.01% on everything every 40 hours of gametime. Leaving the NPC corp and rejoining this will not reset that tax rate, but while you are in a player corp you pay the player corps taxes (as current). Cap this tax rate at 10% and have it apply to every possible transaction (for item trading, tax max 10% of the raw mineral value of the item being traded).
This puts players in the NPC corp at a market disadvantage. But in an RP sense makes sense due to the extra protections they get over player corps. If you want to mission level 4's in a NPC corp player fine. But pay 10% on your bounties, and 10% on your market orders. Its only fair due to the risk factor of you doing vs someone in a corp who could be wardec'd. risk=reward right?
(BY NPC corp I mean non FW NPC corp those have risks inherent to those corps)
Actually if you go look with the search... CCP decided that corp hopping was a legit thing... so nothing to fix.
As for logistics, you can wardec X corps but it still leaves Y corporations that will jump in to fill those buy orders or contracts.
To be brutally honest: Remove the npc corporations and there will be screams about all the small corporations out there that are immune to wardecs because the return on wardecing a tiny group of corporations working together is not worth it. (A macro/isk farmer can set up every single character in a separate corporation...so the cost to wardec them all is insanely high. Plus they can rotate out those that are deced with alts on the same account... kinda like many do now when their mains are wardeced.)
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Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.24 19:41:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ashen Angel
Originally by: Draygo Korvan
NPC corps however offer too much protection in eve. So much so that many people with players in player corps prefer to have an alt or two in an NPC corp to do empire operations. It can be really hard to shut down a 0.0 alliances empire logistics if they run their logistics through the NPC corps. This makes them immune to all but suicide ganking attacks.
Actually if you go look with the search... CCP decided that corp hopping was a legit thing... so nothing to fix.
As for logistics, you can wardec X corps but it still leaves Y corporations that will jump in to fill those buy orders or contracts.
I don't get what you are saying here... Most 0.0 alliances have logistics alts in NPC corps, which cannot be wardec'd at all.
Quote:
To be brutally honest: Remove the npc corporations and there will be screams about all the small corporations out there that are immune to wardecs because the return on wardecing a tiny group of corporations working together is not worth it. (A macro/isk farmer can set up every single character in a separate corporation...so the cost to wardec them all is insanely high. Plus they can rotate out those that are deced with alts on the same account... kinda like many do now when their mains are wardeced.)
I dont see a problem with the second part, I rather see that as a bonus. Wardec mechanics need to be reworked anyway.
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.24 20:00:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Draygo Korvan
Originally by: Ashen Angel
Originally by: Draygo Korvan
NPC corps however offer too much protection in eve. So much so that many people with players in player corps prefer to have an alt or two in an NPC corp to do empire operations. It can be really hard to shut down a 0.0 alliances empire logistics if they run their logistics through the NPC corps. This makes them immune to all but suicide ganking attacks.
Actually if you go look with the search... CCP decided that corp hopping was a legit thing... so nothing to fix.
As for logistics, you can wardec X corps but it still leaves Y corporations that will jump in to fill those buy orders or contracts.
I don't get what you are saying here... Most 0.0 alliances have logistics alts in NPC corps, which cannot be wardec'd at all.
Quote:
To be brutally honest: Remove the npc corporations and there will be screams about all the small corporations out there that are immune to wardecs because the return on wardecing a tiny group of corporations working together is not worth it. (A macro/isk farmer can set up every single character in a separate corporation...so the cost to wardec them all is insanely high. Plus they can rotate out those that are deced with alts on the same account... kinda like many do now when their mains are wardeced.)
I dont see a problem with the second part, I rather see that as a bonus. Wardec mechanics need to be reworked anyway.
You wardec alliance A
They put out buy orders, corps 1-infinity can then move in to fill those orders.
There is a point when you can't wardec the corporations supplying the warmachine of alliance A.
Even if they rework the mechanics, you still have people that will realize they can operate as 20 1 man corporations just as easily as they do in a 20-man corporation.
Instead of pick a corp, it becomes whack-a-mole. But each swing costs more and more isk for no reward in the end.
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Gealbhan
Caldari
Infernal Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.24 20:08:00 -
[44]
No need for all that hassle with new player corps. you can kill the macro miners right now if you don't mind the sec hit.
There's no such thing as 100% safe in eve-o and I like it that way.
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Mankirks Wife
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Posted - 2008.07.24 20:19:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Mankirks Wife on 24/07/2008 20:20:23
Originally by: TheG2
Was just reading a post regarding ice mining and mining in general losing profitability (besides being incredibly boring) due to the fact the market is flooded with Macro miners.
What if NPC corps worked like Rookie chat, you could only stay in it so long before you were kicked out and forced into your own little corp (same rules, you can be war dec'd etc). This would allow people to war dec the macro pilots and would help put a damper on the Macro effort that is still going strong in Eve.
Sure some carebears might whine about losing their protection, but it makes little sense for people to be immune from wars anyways. And it'll be a boost to player corporation populations.
This wouldn't do anything - macro'ers would create and change corps every day after downtime and go about their business.
Hardcore carebears would go into one-man corps and switch them up every time they were wardec'd. Same with NPC-corp farmer and logistics alts.
The only people it would affect are people whom the NPC corps are designed to harbor - those who prefer to play solo for whatever reason.
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Artemis Rose
Eleckrostatik
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Posted - 2008.07.24 20:25:00 -
[46]
Who really cares about the NPC corp war dec immunity? Do you really honestly believe for a second that if somebody did not want to fight you, they would not go to great lengths to avoid you. The game needs NPC corps, to bring new players in, and give the people who want to be in an NPC corp a way to play their game.
Yes, EVE stands for Everybody vs Everybody, but if you have absolutely no way to avoid conflict, you'll hurt the game as whole. If you really want to kill your ice miners, go get some t1 gank setups and rip them apart. You'll lose fraction on a t1 BC compared to a t2 barge user would lose.
If you can't be bothered to do that, spare us the whine. This isn't the game to turn into endless ganking for zero risk to yourself.
__________________________________________________
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat. |
Lithalnas
Amarr
Headcrabs
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Posted - 2008.07.24 20:39:00 -
[47]
what i would like to see is a draft, if you are in an NPC corp for 3 months you get drafted into factional warfare, that way macros cant hide.
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fixed for greater eve content |
soldieroffortune 258
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Posted - 2008.07.24 20:48:00 -
[48]
someone mentioned a way a while back about ending macro mining, or that could severly cut back on it
the person stated that if you do nothing for long periods of time, like say 15 minutes, absolutely nothing, no real action, that the game dc's you
this would cut back on the mining thing, and it could be changed as well, like if you dont CHANGE anything that you were doing it dc's you as well
that would be to prevent them from picking a rock and orbiting it, which would qualify as moving, so if you set your orbit and then do nothing for 15 minutes, it will dc you as well, however, it shouldnt dc you for sitting in station for 15 minutes, because by sitting in station for 15 minutes you cant really make much money, so if someone has to go afk, better dock up, or if there is no station in system, then you better find a SS and then leave, it would be safer doing that anyway
and what someone already stated as well, there could be a "report macro" ooption on the game and you would have to type the squiglly line thing in within 30 seconds or a minute (i prefer 30 seconds)
but yes, if you force someone into pvp by making them join a war decable corp, it wouldnt work really, because there are reasons people stay in NPC corps, its because they obviously couldnt handle to pvp yet, and people/griefers would strongly abuse this as well, oh, i dont like that person and their not in npc corp now, lets war dec them
or chances are all the noobs would join one corp, kinda to stay together w/ people their own age, and even i konw a few ****head CEO's that would war dec noobs who had not a snowball's chance in hell defending themselves, and im sure there are many more than just who i konw
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.24 20:49:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Lithalnas
what i would like to see is a draft, if you are in an NPC corp for 3 months you get drafted into factional warfare, that way macros cant hide.
which would force a playstyle onto players, one thing CCP is very much against.
Besides they would just form corporations and do the shuffle as needed for the same protection (and little to no impact on their bottom lines)
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soldieroffortune 258
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Posted - 2008.07.24 20:54:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Dramaan
If any one stay to long in npc corp they shod after 6 weeks get transfer to fw corp for that faction
wouldnt make much of a difference tbh, that militia is still an npc corp and STILL un war deccable by players, and if they are macro mining in high sec, then they are safe anyway, because i dont think that the caldari militia would go through gallente high sec just to kill our macro miners
sorry about double post, i dont konw how to quote more than one person in the same post
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wired2kill
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.24 21:02:00 -
[51]
Originally by: MenanceWhite
Sounds good.
They should have some kind of system where you're in the starter newbie NPC corp, but then gets ejected into an "standard" NPC corp that is wardec-able after the character reaches a certain amount of SP.
That newbie SP limit will be somewhere below whats needed to fly mining barges.
This way newbies still have some kind of protection while you can get the macroers.
or gettin booted out of the newbie NPC corp and dumped straight into the FW milita corps
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.24 21:18:00 -
[52]
The solution is somewhere in the middle ground, as usual.
NPC starter corps should be as they are now, but also with skill training restrictions similar, but less invasive as trial accounts.
When a player is ready to progress, they can either apply to a player corp, or a new style NPC corp.
The new NPC corps would provide players bonuses based on the actual corp they join, and lift any training restrictions.
Whilst it would be possible to declare war on these corps, it would be expensive (akin to dec'ing an allinace, or more).
Also, attacking a player in one of these corps would result in corp and factional penalties, even if a Concord sanctioned war is in place (although Concord would not get involved in that case).
The penalties would esculate as the faction hits grow - docking rights at that corps stations removed, and their sentries firing to protect their employees; spreading to allied corps, and eventually involvement from the factional Navy.
This integrates the system with factional warfare, helps enrich NPC corps (through the corp specific bonuses), whilst discouraging open warfare for a prolonged period. As the penalties are applied to characters, not corps, corp hopping would not allow people to avoid the esculating penalties.
I really must right up the full proposal sometime.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Faife
Minmatar
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.07.24 21:29:00 -
[53]
let's screw over noobs so that people can pay 50m per week to war dec corps named "kasdjfkasj" for the few minutes it takes the macroer to make a new corp
well thought through. no unintended consequences there whatsoever AND completely achieves it's stated goal
/endorse
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TheG2
Gallente
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.24 21:54:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Faife
let's screw over noobs so that people can pay 50m per week to war dec corps named "kasdjfkasj" for the few minutes it takes the macroer to make a new corp
well thought through. no unintended consequences there whatsoever AND completely achieves it's stated goal
/endorse
Glad to have you on board with the idea.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.07.24 21:55:00 -
[55]
No need to remove NPC corporations, make them an integral part of faction warfare. Being legit targets of the militias their own militia will be commanded to defend their NPC corporations and prominent pilots within them.
With militias getting new letters of marque each week the rotation of targetted enemy NPC corporation shifts, to give some breathing room for the assailed, or not, should they become the mark two or three weeks running. Of course then all the NPC corporations would have to be opened up for membership and being a member of any actually mean something.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
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CCP Taera
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Posted - 2008.07.24 22:02:00 -
[56]
Moving this topic to Features and Ideas Discussion 
Taera
Associate Community Manager
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Email |
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.24 22:05:00 -
[57]
First of all, is there anything to prove that macro miners, by and large, are actually in NPC corps? Without that, this whole topic is dead before it even starts.
Originally by: TheG2
'Real' (not Macros) players will typically join a player run corp rather than fly solo.
What you're saying here is that PC corps should lose all control over who joins their corp; that players should be able to join any corp they like by just clicking the "join" button. If not, then your little plan won't work – new players will typically not join a player corp because you know ****-all about what kind of idiots may be in any given corp at any given time.
Each player has full control over his or her characters and their actions, and the only way to force them into player corps the way you think is to give them – not the corps – this power. It is a very undesireable prospect.
Put another way: as a paying subscriber, I get to choose my path. If I lose that choice, then the corps must lose their ability to be choosy. Tit for tat.
Originally by: Cat Gilligan
Is there really a legit reason for players to stay in a NPC corp after they reach a certain skill level?
Is there any reason for players to be in PC corp? It seems so many seem to assume that joining a PC corp is "the right thing", but I have yet to see any corp recruitment posts that actually give me as a player a good reason to join them. What's in it for me?
The reason to stay in an NPC corp are simple: you have probably a number of established friends there; you have people who can give you advice and who can fight along side you. Why should I leave that for your corp, which I know nothing about (and why should I even be interested in researching it)?
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Nikita Alterana
Gallente
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.07.24 22:08:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Molly Missile
Edited by: Molly Missile on 24/07/2008 14:06:30
There are many solutions to macro-mining that don't involve forced PvP. I sometimes wonder if people just hate immunity in general.
A simple alternative would be to be able to target the player and click on a "report macro" option (just like we can "block" people in chat). Anyone targeted this way could get a pop-up that makes them type in one of those squiggly word codes we enter when we're creating accounts somewhere). Put a timer on it, and people who fail get some personal attention from CCP. Of course, nuisance spamming of the "report macro" function would also be punishable.
There are probably simpler and better solutions than mine, but let's not let macro mining serve as an excuse to turn Eve into forced PvP (without even Concord consequences).
btw, ending immunity overall may have its good points, but would change the game radically for many players. I just don't think macro-mining is a reason for it.
that's actually a very simple, elegant, and doable solution. Just don't make it TOO hard to read, I have trouble with those sometimes, especially when I can't tell apart 1 I and l, O from o from 0, and uppercase from lowercase.
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TheG2
Gallente
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.24 22:09:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: TheG2
'Real' (not Macros) players will typically join a player run corp rather than fly solo.
What you're saying here is that PC corps should lose all control over who joins their corp; that players should be able to join any corp they like by just clicking the "join" button. If not, then your little plan won't work û new players will typically not join a player corp because you know ****-all about what kind of idiots may be in any given corp at any given time.
Each player has full control over his or her characters and their actions, and the only way to force them into player corps the way you think is to give them û not the corps û this power. It is a very undesireable prospect.
Put another way: as a paying subscriber, I get to choose my path. If I lose that choice, then the corps must lose their ability to be choosy. Tit for tat.
No where did I say that. They are moved into their own corp, and from there are free to apply at other Player run corps, rejected or accepted, that system doesn't change.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.24 22:17:00 -
[60]
Originally by: TheG2
No where did I say that. They are moved into their own corp, and from there are free to apply at other Player run corps, rejected or accepted, that system doesn't change.
You didn't say it outright, not, but it is what needs to happen to make your idea at all workable. With no access to the NPC corp, the player has severely limited means of creating a network of contacts and of trust. Without that network, finding a useful and worth-while corp are just as limited, so a mechanic that allows players to "try" a corp out becomes a must.
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