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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.24 22:53:00 -
[61]
Sad thing is none of these changes would actually change anything for the good.
Rather than join a wardecable NPC corporation (where there will be plenty of targets for some that would accpet the penalties) many would simply form small or one man corps.
Macrominers/isk farmers would make the same adjustments
The only impact would be on players that don't want to deal with the corporate politics and drama (and not just the wardecs)
In effect you wind up with a similar situation in regards to competition and hindering the logistics to 0.0
Instead of thousands in the npc corps, you got hundred if not thousands of smaller targets to worry about.
A group working together in a npc corp is not wardecable, but the isk cost of wardecing them operating as 20 separate 1-man corps... well might as well be in the npc corps after all.
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EnslaverOfMinmatar
Yarsk Hunters
DeaDSpace Coalition
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Posted - 2008.07.24 23:10:00 -
[62]
Add a time delay to leaving the corp. For example:
you're in a corp, you decide to leave and it happens immediately. The timer starts (lets say 48h). Then you corp hop, get wardecced and can't leave for 48 hours. That gives those who decced u 24h to kill.
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.24 23:25:00 -
[63]
 Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar
Add a time delay to leaving the corp. For example:
you're in a corp, you decide to leave and it happens immediately. The timer starts (lets say 48h). Then you corp hop, get wardecced and can't leave for 48 hours. That gives those who decced u 24h to kill.
which can be abused by simply having alt corps wardec the target, giving the ability to keep them locked down and in the corporation.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.07.24 23:30:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Ashen Angel
Sad thing is none of these changes would actually change anything for the good.
Rather than join a wardecable NPC corporation (where there will be plenty of targets for some that would accpet the penalties) many would simply form small or one man corps.
Macrominers/isk farmers would make the same adjustments
The only impact would be on players that don't want to deal with the corporate politics and drama (and not just the wardecs)
In effect you wind up with a similar situation in regards to competition and hindering the logistics to 0.0
Instead of thousands in the npc corps, you got hundred if not thousands of smaller targets to worry about.
A group working together in a npc corp is not wardecable, but the isk cost of wardecing them operating as 20 separate 1-man corps... well might as well be in the npc corps after all.
Make it harder and more costly to form a corporation then, the fewer the starting members the costlier and skill intensive it'll be. There will be a point break where the macros deem the risk/reward sufficient and I'm sure there will be people willing to declare on them still.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.24 23:39:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Ashen Angel
Sad thing is none of these changes would actually change anything for the good.
Rather than join a wardecable NPC corporation (where there will be plenty of targets for some that would accpet the penalties) many would simply form small or one man corps.
Macrominers/isk farmers would make the same adjustments
The only impact would be on players that don't want to deal with the corporate politics and drama (and not just the wardecs)
In effect you wind up with a similar situation in regards to competition and hindering the logistics to 0.0
Instead of thousands in the npc corps, you got hundred if not thousands of smaller targets to worry about.
A group working together in a npc corp is not wardecable, but the isk cost of wardecing them operating as 20 separate 1-man corps... well might as well be in the npc corps after all.
Make it harder and more costly to form a corporation then, the fewer the starting members the costlier and skill intensive it'll be. There will be a point break where the macros deem the risk/reward sufficient and I'm sure there will be people willing to declare on them still.
All corporations start out with 1 person. There is no maintenance cost for a corporation unless it has an office or is part of an alliance (iirc).
You still have the issues, and still seek to punish those that choose a different playstyle that doesn't involve corporate warfare.
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Loyal Servant
Caldari
PURE Legion
Pure.
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Posted - 2008.07.24 23:51:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Tippia
First of all, is there anything to prove that macro miners, by and large, are actually in NPC corps? Without that, this whole topic is dead before it even starts.
Depends on what your definition of a 'macro miner' is.
I really don't see macro miners much anymore.
They have since moved on to farming missions/0.0 belts with cloaks and wcs.
As far as proving that isk farmers are in NPC corps?
I can tell you that it's a 80/20 split, with 80% being in NPC corps and 20% being in player corps.
I can't 'prove' that large numbers are in NPC corps unless I started posting huge lists of names.
Basically, it's a guesstimate.
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Vigilant
Gallente
Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2008.07.25 00:10:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Loyal Servant
Originally by: Tippia
First of all, is there anything to prove that macro miners, by and large, are actually in NPC corps? Without that, this whole topic is dead before it even starts.
Depends on what your definition of a 'macro miner' is.
I really don't see macro miners much anymore.
They have since moved on to farming missions/0.0 belts with cloaks and wcs.
As far as proving that isk farmers are in NPC corps?
I can tell you that it's a 80/20 split, with 80% being in NPC corps and 20% being in player corps.
I can't 'prove' that large numbers are in NPC corps unless I started posting huge lists of names.
Basically, it's a guesstimate.
Fly to most ice belts and you will MANY in High Sec. Goons are still popping some, but its not stopping the mast majority.
The thread has some value, but it has many loop holes as pointed out, by many players. War Dec / Corp Hopping is WAY too easy.
Roots of EVILS in EVE:
Corp Hopping to avoid War Dec's
ALTS in general
Macro / Farmers
Insurance needs some major tweaks
Concord paying people to Gank
and many more 
But, we can go on forever.
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.25 00:21:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Vigilant
Originally by: Loyal Servant
Originally by: Tippia
First of all, is there anything to prove that macro miners, by and large, are actually in NPC corps? Without that, this whole topic is dead before it even starts.
Depends on what your definition of a 'macro miner' is.
I really don't see macro miners much anymore.
They have since moved on to farming missions/0.0 belts with cloaks and wcs.
As far as proving that isk farmers are in NPC corps?
I can tell you that it's a 80/20 split, with 80% being in NPC corps and 20% being in player corps.
I can't 'prove' that large numbers are in NPC corps unless I started posting huge lists of names.
Basically, it's a guesstimate.
Fly to most ice belts and you will MANY in High Sec. Goons are still popping some, but its not stopping the mast majority.
The thread has some value, but it has many loop holes as pointed out, by many players. War Dec / Corp Hopping is WAY too easy.
Roots of EVILS in EVE:
Corp Hopping to avoid War Dec's
ALTS in general
Macro / Farmers
Insurance needs some major tweaks
Concord paying people to Gank
and many more
But, we can go on forever.
thing is a real player will get discouraged after the goon attacks... the isk farmers don't care. They just raise prices to account for the loss production
Corp hopping is meant to be there, since CCP has stated they want people to be able to leave a corp if they don't want to be involved in a war.
Alts happen, always will (even if they are separate accounts)
Macro/farmers are needing to be reported, CCP can work on that a bit more as well
Insurance/suicides are being looked into
as are many other problems.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.07.25 02:30:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Ashen Angel
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Ashen Angel
Sad thing is none of these changes would actually change anything for the good.
Rather than join a wardecable NPC corporation (where there will be plenty of targets for some that would accpet the penalties) many would simply form small or one man corps.
Macrominers/isk farmers would make the same adjustments
The only impact would be on players that don't want to deal with the corporate politics and drama (and not just the wardecs)
In effect you wind up with a similar situation in regards to competition and hindering the logistics to 0.0
Instead of thousands in the npc corps, you got hundred if not thousands of smaller targets to worry about.
A group working together in a npc corp is not wardecable, but the isk cost of wardecing them operating as 20 separate 1-man corps... well might as well be in the npc corps after all.
Make it harder and more costly to form a corporation then, the fewer the starting members the costlier and skill intensive it'll be. There will be a point break where the macros deem the risk/reward sufficient and I'm sure there will be people willing to declare on them still.
All corporations start out with 1 person. There is no maintenance cost for a corporation unless it has an office or is part of an alliance (iirc).
You still have the issues, and still seek to punish those that choose a different playstyle that doesn't involve corporate warfare.
Yes technically but if not soon joined by a group make it costlier for the lone enterpriser to keep shop open. There is no such cost now no but we're not talking about the status quo.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
|
Posted - 2008.07.25 03:08:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Ashen Angel
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Ashen Angel
Sad thing is none of these changes would actually change anything for the good.
Rather than join a wardecable NPC corporation (where there will be plenty of targets for some that would accpet the penalties) many would simply form small or one man corps.
Macrominers/isk farmers would make the same adjustments
The only impact would be on players that don't want to deal with the corporate politics and drama (and not just the wardecs)
In effect you wind up with a similar situation in regards to competition and hindering the logistics to 0.0
Instead of thousands in the npc corps, you got hundred if not thousands of smaller targets to worry about.
A group working together in a npc corp is not wardecable, but the isk cost of wardecing them operating as 20 separate 1-man corps... well might as well be in the npc corps after all.
Make it harder and more costly to form a corporation then, the fewer the starting members the costlier and skill intensive it'll be. There will be a point break where the macros deem the risk/reward sufficient and I'm sure there will be people willing to declare on them still.
All corporations start out with 1 person. There is no maintenance cost for a corporation unless it has an office or is part of an alliance (iirc).
You still have the issues, and still seek to punish those that choose a different playstyle that doesn't involve corporate warfare.
Yes technically but if not soon joined by a group make it costlier for the lone enterpriser to keep shop open. There is no such cost now no but we're not talking about the status quo.
Yes , but then you hurt the smaller corporations made up of a small group of friends. Or those that want to be solo for any reason. (since they would be forced out of the NPC corporations they are in and enjoy being in)
But many may simply roll through a bunch of trial accounts or alts and make characters to add to the corporation to push it up past the limits.
The majority of complaints consist of wanting to engage those that don't want to do combat with other players. And then trying to find ways to force that play style on them...
And well CCP has been rather stubborn when it comes to violating their policy of not forcing any play style on folks.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.25 09:23:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Make it harder and more costly to form a corporation then, the fewer the starting members the costlier and skill intensive it'll be. There will be a point break where the macros deem the risk/reward sufficient and I'm sure there will be people willing to declare on them still.
Fantastic, now with the excuse of stopping macros (as it will work, macro will create some 10 man corp and then shuffle people around to avoid wardec, never recreating the same rooster) you want to force people to start a new corporation with a large number of people to keep the cost down.
You guys never think that the first person to be influenced by your smart thinking would be new players that haven't the contact, knowledge and skills to for a large corp from the start?
And haven't the knowledge to select a good corporation?
Your idea would create a proliferation of bad corps, with incompetent and dictatorial CEOs milking the new players that join for all they can while giving nothing in return. The result will be a lot of disgruntled players leaving the game and the other forming 1 man corp to havoid bad CEOs.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:01:00 -
[72]
Oh god yet another thread on this. Please, go back to complaining about AFK cloaking or nano-ships, it was much more entertaining.
Normally I'm much more pleasant on the forums; I try and point out in the nicest way when someone posts a stupid idea. In this case however I'm going to ignore that usual rule because this idea has come up again and again year after year, and a simple EVE search would have found all the discussions about it.
What continues to amaze me is how brain-dead some players are in making this bizarre series of assumptions. They usually follow this pattern:
- Somehow real PvP isn't enough for some people; they have to seek it from defenseless new players, but don't want to admit that so they hide behind the excuse of dealing with macro users.
- Macro users are everywhere. In fact, the continued increase in EVE's subscription is solely down to macro-runners. It's all a giant BoB & CCP plot.
- NPC corps are havens of people who are totally invulnerable, never undock, and in fact are the entire cause of any economic troubles, the lag in Jita, the US economy, and the abduction of your cat by aliens.
- Carebears somehow are these lesser individuals, as they get this derogatory term free of charge from these mindless jarheads, that contribute in no useful way to EVE at all, and should be man enough to do PvP in a mining barge against a faction battleship fleet, because after all, it's a cold harsh world out there.
So, Mr-I'm-Too-Scared-To-Do-Real-PvP, where should these new players go if not in NPC corps? A personal corp each? What if they don't have the skills, or do we give everyone the ability to be a CEO straight off?
NPC corps are there for a reason. You or I or even CCP have no right or ability to judge when a person is ready for the rest of EVE. You certaintly don't. End of story. EVE is a social game, a multi-player game, and nowhere in the EULA does it say that we all have to line up and get shot by you for your personal entertainment.
Have you perhaps missed that the industrial and trade and mining side has quite considerable skill requirements of its own, and is a necessary, nay vital, part of EVE, equal to PvP itself? How can anyone judge when a person is 'ready' when you can train any set of skills you like? Where the hell do you think your ships and modules come from?
How can you have been dumb enough to have not thought about the actual impact this would have on macro users, which is none at all? Macro users are already in player corps! They just corp-hop when someone war decs them!
How can you have not for a second considered that new players, who have every right to choose any path they like in EVE, are complete cannon fodder to the experienced, rich, and highly skilled griefers of which you probably are one?
MMO Lesson 1: You don't get happy customers by forcing people into a given form of gameplay. You get happy customers by offering them good reasons to go into social groupings.
Your post just shows you have zero knowledge of the game, no interest in the entire game as a whole or the game's health, or just how unbalanced the current war system is in EVE. Try learning something about the game, and then post.
Besides, I call bullshit on 'mining losing profitability due to macroers' - total rubbish, plenty of people mine and indeed prices have never been better since the drone regions crash.
Originally by: Detritus Thermopyle
Another in a long line of what I continue to call 'NCDS' (Newbie Corp Derangement Syndrome) THREADS.
I just had to write this one down. Love it.
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My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:20:00 -
[73]
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar
Add a time delay to leaving the corp. For example:
you're in a corp, you decide to leave and it happens immediately. The timer starts (lets say 48h). Then you corp hop, get wardecced and can't leave for 48 hours. That gives those who decced u 24h to kill.
Pointless. All this does is force the player, who doesn't want to fight your silly war remember, to stay logged off for a day. EVE is a game. It has to be fun for people to play it; both sides. Wars are not there for you to go shoot someone who doesn't want to be shot - that's what low-sec is for. Wars are there for you engage in corp-corp warfare over important things.
Everyone who proposes this sort of idea only ever sees it from their perspective. If you want to propose balance changes, you have to see both sides of the argument.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.25 20:53:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Ashen Angel
Rather than join a wardecable NPC corporation (where there will be plenty of targets for some that would accpet the penalties) many would simply form small or one man corps.
Then they miss out on the bonuses given to members of those NPC corps.
Up to them really.
They can then be war dec'd on a personal level nice and cheaply, and with no penalty, and no-one to help them (PC or NPC).
Are you sure they would pick that?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Blue Screen
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:12:00 -
[75]
Solution: don't mine ice.
Also, I like cheap ore and ice.
I'm with Astria all the way.
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LeGlt
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:47:00 -
[76]
Edited by: LeGlt on 25/07/2008 21:47:36
Reducing corp hopping by macroers can be done by automatically giving all corporation members of any and every corp a grantable role, which for all intents and purposes does absolutely nothing but mean they can't leave for 24 hours for the roles to be removed? Considering it takes 24 hours for the declaration of war, they would have to be pretty quick to remove their roles to corp hop, which is not always going to be possible when they are offline at the time of the declaration ;)
__________________________
Nice forum - I'll take it! |
Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.25 21:53:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Ashen Angel
Rather than join a wardecable NPC corporation (where there will be plenty of targets for some that would accpet the penalties) many would simply form small or one man corps.
Then they miss out on the bonuses given to members of those NPC corps.
Up to them really.
They can then be war dec'd on a personal level nice and cheaply, and with no penalty, and no-one to help them (PC or NPC).
Are you sure they would pick that?
Once again there is the difficulty of making it financially viable to wardec a group of one man corporations, that can hop still (nothing says they can't close down the corporations)
Besides there are going to be folks wardecing the npc corporations much like they do now with the faction militias.
But it all is moot anyway: CCP isn't going to change the NPC corporations. They've made that clear several times. They use them as a place for those that don't want to deal with the playstyle that involves player corporations.
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.26 02:35:00 -
[78]
Originally by: LeGlt
Edited by: LeGlt on 25/07/2008 21:47:36
Reducing corp hopping by macroers can be done by automatically giving all corporation members of any and every corp a grantable role, which for all intents and purposes does absolutely nothing but mean they can't leave for 24 hours for the roles to be removed? Considering it takes 24 hours for the declaration of war, they would have to be pretty quick to remove their roles to corp hop, which is not always going to be possible when they are offline at the time of the declaration ;)
Again, can be misused to lock legit players into a corporation. Staggered wardecs to keep them locked in and griefed. (Which means it's not going to happen as they are already reworking the wardec system due to it being pay to grief to quote CCP)
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.26 08:09:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 26/07/2008 08:15:08
Originally by: Blue Screen
Solution: don't mine ice.
Also, I like cheap ore and ice.
I'm with Astria all the way.
Thank you, but to be fair I was arguing that actually mineral prices aren't that cheap (I've not looked at ice in a while so I'm not going to comment) - there was a spike when shuttles were changed, but it quickly stablised as people switched to trit, and then it goes up and down for a while as people switch back and forth between profitable ores to mine. The overall downward turn longer term has been mainly attributed by those that keep a closer watch than I to the drone regions.
Real players do mine. Not every barge is a macro-miner. Not every barge in an NPC corp is a macro-miner. My barge, for starters, when I was in my starter corp. Mining being a profitable activity is important, because without it, fewer ships or modules get built.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.26 16:13:00 -
[80]
I always find it funny when players whine about someone being in an NPC Corp and consequently playing "solo" in a MMO. They always claim it isn't fair to play "solo" and use the "Its a MULTI-PLAYER game" arguement to try to force them to "interact" (ie-get blown up) with other players.
And their method of forcing people to interact? Put them in single-person corps, taking away the 100s of players they talk to daily.....
So not signed. Your solution will not hurt macros in the slightest but will effect a large percentage of the player base and in general make Eve a less interesting game for those players.
-------------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
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Irn Bruce
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 16:39:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Molly Missile
A simple alternative would be to be able to target the player and click on a "report macro" option (just like we can "block" people in chat). Anyone targeted this way could get a pop-up that makes them type in one of those squiggly word codes we enter when we're creating accounts somewhere). Put a timer on it, and people who fail get some personal attention from CCP. Of course, nuisance spamming of the "report macro" function would also be punishable.
Sort of resurrecting an old post here, but I love this idea.
Then next time I'm at war with someone and I find my WTs mining in a belt using my alt scout, I can keep reporting them as macros so they can't warp out while my main gets in there to kill them. Bring it on!
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
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Posted - 2008.07.26 21:34:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
I always find it funny when players whine about someone being in an NPC Corp and consequently playing "solo" in a MMO. They always claim it isn't fair to play "solo" and use the "Its a MULTI-PLAYER game" arguement to try to force them to "interact" (ie-get blown up) with other players.
And their method of forcing people to interact? Put them in single-person corps, taking away the 100s of players they talk to daily.....
So not signed. Your solution will not hurt macros in the slightest but will effect a large percentage of the player base and in general make Eve a less interesting game for those players.
Well the npc corporations make an easy target for whinges about how unfair it is they can't engage them.
Never mind the isk farmers will adapt and find a way to be profitable (maybe even raise the prices of their isk)..
But none mention the fact if there wasn't buyers there would be no isk farmers...
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Morgan Brykein
Gallente
New Eden Worker's Union
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:27:00 -
[83]
I'm more of the storyline type of guy, and really, some people might like to be in an NCP corp such as CAS or The Scope or something.
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Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.26 22:57:00 -
[84]
please please please read up on the thousands (yes, thousands) of posts on this in the last 2 years... (yes, I get tired of posting in them too...)
remember, Farmers/marcos do this for a LIVING, their NEXT MEAL is on the line... real/legit players play for fun... they are more likely to leave before farmers does...
and no, farmers ADAPT better than players.... their next meal is on the line...
if you force too much SWEEPING restrictions that nukes a whole segment of the player base...
you will end up driving away causal/people who are pvp mehish away.. remember, these people pay subs too...
CCP accounting wont like that...
and yes, CCP stated REPEATEDLY that they arent nerfing npc corps or FORCING (remember, choice.. player have choices in this game... is one of Eve's selling point) people to do anything....
people will come out when they are good and ready, this is decided by people themselves.
and no, no nerfing npc corps, since player corps are better. player corps have more benefits, POS, and other fun stuff...
(try waiting 30 days for a public lab....and you would WANT to be in a player corp....)
CCP uses the pre-nerfed CARROT approach...
any method that lock down people and takes away their freedom will hurt CCP's wallet...
and yeah, IF YOU SEE A SUSPECTED MACRO... PETITION!!!! PETITION PETITION PETITION!!!!
Originally by: CCP Atropos
I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:09:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Mika Meroko
Stuff
This says it all really, though I feel obliged to apologise for my earlier rather harsh post. I know that the OP does post some sensible stuff, and I over-reacted because I have unfortunately dealt with this quite a bit of late.
Nonetheless I still don't think it's a good idea.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
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