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Remove NPC corps and you end Macro immunity in High-sec

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TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.07.24 13:54:00 - [1] Was just reading a post regarding ice mining and mining in general losing profitability (besides being incredibly boring) due to the fact the market is flooded with Macro miners. What if NPC corps worked like Rookie chat, you could only stay in it so long before you were kicked out and forced into your own little corp (same rules, you can be war dec'd etc). This would allow people to war dec the macro pilots and would help put a damper on the Macro effort that is still going strong in Eve. Sure some carebears might whine about losing their protection, but it makes little sense for people to be immune from wars anyways. And it'll be a boost to player corporation populations.
Atariss	Posted - 2008.07.24 13:55:00 - [2] /signed also, 1st
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.24 13:58:00 - [3] Macroers would just create corps with names like skdjflskj1, skdjflskj2, skdjflskj3, skdjflskj4, etc and immediately move to them, invalidating the war declaration and making it impossible to fire a shot at them. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
MenanceWhite Amarr Red Light Navy	Posted - 2008.07.24 13:58:00 - [4] Sounds good. They should have some kind of system where you're in the starter newbie NPC corp, but then gets ejected into an "standard" NPC corp that is wardec-able after the character reaches a certain amount of SP. That newbie SP limit will be somewhere below whats needed to fly mining barges. This way newbies still have some kind of protection while you can get the macroers. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Saint Lazarus Spiorad ag fanaiocht	Posted - 2008.07.24 13:59:00 - [5] Macros would eventually just learn to corp hop. Join corp, it gets dec'd they all leave to NPC corp, make new corp when theys kicked out again. might mildly annoy them at best and cost them 1.6 mil (less than war dec) for every new corp :P -----------------
Molly Missile	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:04:00 - [6] There are many solutions to macro-mining that don't involve forced PvP. I sometimes wonder if people just hate immunity in general. A simple alternative would be to be able to target the player and click on a "report macro" option (just like we can "block" people in chat). Anyone targeted this way could get a pop-up that makes them type in one of those squiggly word codes we enter when we're creating accounts somewhere). Put a timer on it, and people who fail get some personal attention from CCP. Of course, nuisance spamming of the "report macro" function would also be punishable. There are probably simpler and better solutions than mine, but let's not let macro mining serve as an excuse to turn Eve into forced PvP (without even Concord consequences).
Meroze	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:06:00 - [7] This was asked for 4 years ago and caused a 100 page threadnought iirc. CCP never listened then, and they won't listen now. Upsetting the few legitimate players who prefer staying in an NPC corp is used as the excuse not implement it... even though it would effectively make it open season on 1000's and 1000's of macro farming parasites
Loyal Servant Caldari PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:14:00 - [8] Never happen. CCP don't really care about farmers despite the fact that because they do not care about them we have isk selling sites that steal peoples' info. Then, they whine that we say they don't care and say 'we do care' but in reality, in the business world they don't care because farmers are big time GTC customers, and that is how you convert dirty isk to clean isk. As already stated they will just corp hop. If I had $1 US for every farmer I see in a Caldari mission area I could pay off a good portion of my mortgage. The game mechanics are geared really well towards farmers and them staying. Reasons: 1. GTC isk washing..... they move their isk in 'secure' market transfers. CCP won't reverse someones wallet for buying ammo regardless of the cost. So, step 1 to cleaned isk They send that isk along in market transactions, not contracts anymore! Now, they buy GTCs for the 0.0 ratters... player sells card and gets 'blessed by CCP isk' and the farmer gets to play more 2. NPC corps... can't do anything with farmers in an NPC corp can you? 3. Cloaking 0.0 ravens 4. the ability to hop corps in rapid succession without penalty 5. the farmers are so awash in isk they are actually affecting the geopolitical movement in eve - they can afford to hire alliances and rent space from them with no penalty and even dictate policy and politics because isk talks. The biggest problem that has come to pass is the massive GTC isk cleansing operations... it has grown the population of farmers and their ability to stay hidden and in game farming 23/7
TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:15:00 - [9] Edited by: TheG2 on 24/07/2008 14:16:29 Removed.
Detritus Thermopyle Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:25:00 - [10] Another in a long line of what I continue to call 'NCDS' (Newbie Corp Derangement Syndrome) THREADS. No matter what the 'perceived' problem(s) the original thread poster outlines, be it: can-flippers, macro-miners, isk-farmers, hi-sec ganking, macro-missioners, scarcity of gankable targets in low sec, Jita lag , ... the cause is always attributed to the current functionality of the New Player Corps. Then the proposed 'solution(s)' always entail the recommendation of massive changes to that functionality in order to 'balance' , 'fix', or 'prevent' whatever that 'perceived' flaw in the current game mechanics, as outlined by the OP, is. Keep em coming! A lie can travel halfway around the universe while the truth is un-docking. ~ Mark Twain (paraphrased)
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Meroze Upsetting the few legitimate players who prefer staying in an NPC corp is used as the excuse not to implement it... even though it would effectively make it open season on 1000's and 1000's of macro farming parasites The few? ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Detritus Thermopyle Another in a long line of what I continue to call 'NCDS' (Newbie Corp Derangement Syndrome) THREADS. No matter what the 'perceived' problem(s) the original thread poster outlines, be it: can-flippers, macro-miners, isk-farmers, hi-sec ganking, macro-missioners, scarcity of gankable targets in low sec, Jita lag , ... the cause is always attributed to the current functionality of the New Player Corps. Then the proposed 'solution(s)' always entail the recommendation of massive changes to that functionality in order to 'balance' , 'fix', or 'prevent' whatever that 'perceived' flaw in the current game mechanics, as outlined by the OP, is. Keep em coming! So your a fan of nearly immune high sec macros? Besides ganking (which can still be a loss) there is no non-loss way to get rid of Macros. Less Macros = Less Lag, less inflation of Isk, and more profitability for new players starting out in mining.
Odre Echee Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:34:00 - [13] Wait, you were immune to losing a ship in Eve at any given time? Why was I never informed of this? P.S. - if you really care that much, then suicide those bastards. Boom boom. Problem solved. I don't like macros either, but the people accusing me (or suiciding me) of being one when I'm simply afkmining or dual-clienting ticks me off even more.
TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:36:00 - [14] Originally by: Odre Echee Wait, you were immune to losing a ship in Eve at any given time? Why was I never informed of this? P.S. - if you really care that much, then suicide those bastards. Boom boom. Problem solved. I don't like macros either, but the people accusing me (or suiciding me) of being one when I'm simply afkmining or dual-clienting ticks me off even more. I say nearly, because while the forums love to play up suicide ganking as if it were happening at every gate in Eve, it isn't profitable and the rules of Sec status prevent you from engaging in it permanently.
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:37:00 - [15] Originally by: TheG2 So your a fan of nearly immune high sec macros? Holy Straw Man Argument, Batman! ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: TheG2 So your a fan of nearly immune high sec macros? Holy Straw Man Argument, Batman! If he wants to generalize my post, I'll generalize his :P
Bfoster Minmatar Rising Federation	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:39:00 - [17] Ok, imma noob... But is sounds like you want a say.. ummm.. 3mil sp miner to stop mining in high sec for a his/her NPC corp and go to low sec so you can How lowsec works
Odre Echee Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:43:00 - [18] Originally by: TheG2 Originally by: Odre Echee Wait, you were immune to losing a ship in Eve at any given time? Why was I never informed of this? P.S. - if you really care that much, then suicide those bastards. Boom boom. Problem solved. I don't like macros either, but the people accusing me (or suiciding me) of being one when I'm simply afkmining or dual-clienting ticks me off even more. I say nearly, because while the forums love to play up suicide ganking as if it were happening at every gate in Eve, it isn't profitable and the rules of Sec status prevent you from engaging in it permanently. Civilised response? You just made me feel bad. Now I gotta give you a good response. I see the main problem with a lot of 'solutions' lying in 'innocent' people getting caught in this. Afkmining and/or dual-clients are a minority, sure, and there are people whom, say, could be off to make some food, fall asleep at keyboards or whatnot. Granted, Eve brags its 'nothing is safe!' policy, but many solutions do have rather a possibility of harming player groups that the 'solution' was not intended for, especially for something that proposes almost no-loss gank. I think griefers would have a field day with newbies and such instead, rather than macrominers. That is what I have a problem with more often than not.
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:47:00 - [19] Edited by: Tarminic on 24/07/2008 14:47:16 Originally by: TheG2 Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: TheG2 So your a fan of nearly immune high sec macros? Holy Straw Man Argument, Batman! If he wants to generalize my post, I'll generalize his :P In all honesty, I think he's right to call your motivation into question. Macros, obviously, know the game mechanics fairly well. The solution you propose will have no effect on them because they'll simply hop corporations whenever anyone declares war on them, and you did not suggest a way to keep them from doing that in your original post. So if your solution very obviously won't work against macrominers, who else would it benefit except for PvPers who want a more target-rich environment in high-security space? ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Ashen Angel Minmatar AA Mining	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:51:00 - [20] All this would do is give you moving targets to complain about. They can corp hop. They can set up an alt in a different corporation with a mining barge in about a week or two (and into exhumers for pure ore gathering in about a month) So if they lock you down to prevent dropping out of corps they just dump the isk and contract the ships to the alts and poof. You got macro miners in corporations already... Gives them a centralized hangar to dump the ore into and can use the corporate alt to refine it at max efficiency and then sell from the corporation. It's not the macros so much as the fact you can get minerals in just about as effective amounts vs a solo miner from missions or running through the drone regions. Plus the market is such that when something is profitable, everyone jumps for it and brings down the profit by flooding it with an abundance of supply vs demand. Ice is going to be low, due to the fact most corporations with a POS is going to mine their own ice. Empire ice is going to be worth less anyway compared to low/null sec ice. Ore is going to vary on demand and supply. Right now veldspar is high up there because everything needs trit, but the supply is reaching the point it's not quite as profitable as it was. The market is reaching an equilibrium of sorts. What folks forget is the isk farmers look at best payout, so they are not in the ice belts... the market got flooded. A market look at the ice available shows that, demand is offset by corps deciding it was more efficient to run their own ops and stockpile what they needed.
War Fairy	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:52:00 - [21] This also punishes newbs. Making them subject to the worst possible harassment. If you beat up on newbs the game dies. This is one of the few MMPOG laws. What happens if they don't have the corp skill trained? What about the proliferation of bad/unused names and tickers?
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Loyal Servant Never happen. CCP don't really care about farmers despite the fact that because they do not care about them we have isk selling sites that steal peoples' info. <snip> The biggest problem that has come to pass is the massive GTC isk cleansing operations... it has grown the population of farmers and their ability to stay hidden and in game farming 23/7 CCP honestly doesn't care because they are making money of selling ISK themselves with the recent GTC increases. Now that GTC's are more expensive than regular subscriptions about all they are going to be bought for is to buy ISK with. Which is why I disagree with CCP's "stance" on RMT, which really isn't one, they are only against RMT that doesn't involve THEM collecting the money, effect on the game economy be dammed! RMT is either bad for EVE or it isn't. If it's bad (and I believe it is) then it's bad regardless of WHO is doing it, be it CCP or some ChiCom farmer outfit. As for the price of minerals... If they went up a lot, it'd be a temporary bubble for the miners at best. Mineral prices HAVE to be relatively low because moving the price of one of them even by 1 ISK will have huge repercussions on the whole EVE economy, as everything is made with them and immediately gets more expensive. Keep in mind miners have to buy manufactured stuff too, which means that their increased ISK from costlier minerals would just get eaten up.
TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:54:00 - [23] Originally by: Tarminic Edited by: Tarminic on 24/07/2008 14:47:16 Originally by: TheG2 Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: TheG2 So your a fan of nearly immune high sec macros? Holy Straw Man Argument, Batman! If he wants to generalize my post, I'll generalize his :P In all honesty, I think he's right to call your motivation into question. Macros, obviously, know the game mechanics fairly well. The solution you propose will have no effect on them because they'll simply hop corporations whenever anyone declares war on them, and you did not suggest a way to keep them from doing that in your original post. So if your solution very obviously won't work against macrominers, who else would it benefit except for PvPers who want a more target-rich environment in high-security space? Fair enough. My idea is this: After 30 days of being in an NPC corp, you are pushed into your own corp. The default name is "Character's Corp" but they can change it. They are charged nothing for doing this, only if they choose to recruit other players are they then charged the Corp fees. 1 man corps cost more than a standard corp to war dec in order to deter abuse. 'Real' (not Macros) players will typically join a player run corp rather than fly solo. I realize there is a minority of players who choose to fly without corp mates, so they can remain in their 1 man corp, no downside there. To combat corp hopping, the Macro would have to create a new corp (costing money and skill training), and as they would be CEO, wouldn't be able to jump very easily. Theres nothing in my idea that forces people to leave highsec, it just gives Macro hunters a bit more leverage to engage the Macros in a system that doesn't destroy security status.
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.24 14:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Saint Lazarus Macros would eventually just learn to corp hop. this Not to mention the benefits outweigh the liabilities in having NPC corps when you are talking about Joe Average (who make up the majority of CCP's subscriber base) who only wants to run missions and have fun in his mission deadspace, learning more about the game before he tries the scary PvP stuff. -
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.24 15:00:00 - [25] Originally by: TheG2 To combat corp hopping, the Macro would have to create a new corp (costing money and skill training), and as they would be CEO, wouldn't be able to jump very easily. 1. Create character to train 2. Create CEO Alt (you can do this with starting skills) 3. Join CEO Alt's corporation with training character 4. When war-decced, create second CEO Alt 5. Join Second CEO Alt's corporation with training character 6. Biomass CEO Alt 7. Repeat from Step 2 You can biomass a character in 10 hours, so macroers would have 3 characters on their account - one main and two CEO alts, allowing them to perpetually create and liquidate corporations and avoid war decs. You really aren't thinking this through. Quote: Theres nothing in my idea that forces people to leave highsec, it just gives Macro hunters a bit more leverage to engage the Macros in a system that doesn't destroy security status. And we need to find a way of doing this without shafting new players and people who legitimately stay in NPC corporations. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.07.24 15:01:00 - [26] Edited by: TheG2 on 24/07/2008 15:02:00 Well, looks like you've all convinced me that everything is fine and nothing's wrong with the current system. Nothing to see here folks.
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.24 15:05:00 - [27] Originally by: TheG2 Well, looks like you've all convinced me that everything is fine and nothing's wrong with the current system. Nothing to see here folks. Crushing a fundamentally flawed and ineffective plan that either has no thought put into it or is just a front for wanting to gank more noobs does not mean that there is nothing wrong with the current system. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.07.24 15:11:00 - [28] Originally by: Cat Gilligan Is there really a legit reason for players to stay in a NPC corp after they reach a certain skill level? Honestly, I think not. First off, it's not intended that you can remain "safe" in EVE, there is dangerous and there is safe-R, but no such thing as safe. Being in an NPC corp gives griefers, scammers, and, yes, macroers the ability to do what they do without other players being able to retaliate via wardec, thus giving them an unfair advantage. Perhaps the solution would be to add a mechanic to the game whereby you can do a "personal" wardec against a specific individual in a NPC corp, if that person has more than 4M skillpoints. That would encourage people to leave and join player run corps, as wardecs there at least are spread amongst the whole corp, not leaving you ALONE against one. I agree, when I first thought of the idea (knowing I was not the first), I hadn't considered that fact, but NPC corps I don't think ever were intended by CCP to be lived in for months and years at a time. There are thousands of player corps in Eve and thats where the game truly starts to shine. NPC corps are usually the blind leading the blind.
Ashen Angel Minmatar AA Mining	Posted - 2008.07.24 17:10:00 - [29] Originally by: TheG2 Originally by: Cat Gilligan Is there really a legit reason for players to stay in a NPC corp after they reach a certain skill level? Honestly, I think not. First off, it's not intended that you can remain "safe" in EVE, there is dangerous and there is safe-R, but no such thing as safe. Being in an NPC corp gives griefers, scammers, and, yes, macroers the ability to do what they do without other players being able to retaliate via wardec, thus giving them an unfair advantage. Perhaps the solution would be to add a mechanic to the game whereby you can do a "personal" wardec against a specific individual in a NPC corp, if that person has more than 4M skillpoints. That would encourage people to leave and join player run corps, as wardecs there at least are spread amongst the whole corp, not leaving you ALONE against one. I agree, when I first thought of the idea (knowing I was not the first), I hadn't considered that fact, but NPC corps I don't think ever were intended by CCP to be lived in for months and years at a time. There are thousands of player corps in Eve and thats where the game truly starts to shine. NPC corps are usually the blind leading the blind. so are many player corporations. Not everyone has the time to devote to being part of a player corporation. Not everyone wants to have to worry about wardecs (and CCP accepts that, they've been honest about not wanting to force that on folks... check the developer posts) Besides even forced out, the macros/isk farmers can use 1 man corporations and simply group up to operate together. Nothing really would change other than legit players with a different play style being affected , but the macro/iskers can make minor changes and keep going just as strong.
Aarin Wrath	Posted - 2008.07.24 17:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Cat Gilligan Is there really a legit reason for players to stay in a NPC corp after they reach a certain skill level? Yes there is. They don't want: 1. to deal with corp politics 2. to deal with alliance politics ... I can think of more reasons but that just came off the top of my head. EVE is a sandbox game. That means, by extension, they don't have to be in a player corp if they don't want to.

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