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I still don't get it: nano ships...

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Denuo Secus	Posted - 2008.07.24 20:16:00 - [1] Call me a newb, but with no real PvP experience yet I have to ask this. Nano ships in my understanding: - extreme fast (> 3000 m/s) - small or no tank/buffer (speed tank) - not much DPS (no damage mods because of speed mods) Nano ships are difficult to catch. Even webbed they are able to dictate range. But - they have to slow down if they want to do some damage, don't they? And they cannot do damage like a gank fitted ship I guess. So my thought: If they want to do damage -> I've better chances to catch them. If they are to fast for catching -> they cannot deal damage. This consideration is about turret ships. A drone nano is like any drone ship: I can destroy the drones. It could be difficult for some fittings but I see no difference to non-nano drone ships. And there are missile nano ships. These are the only I think they can do damage _and_ speed tank. But damage from these ships is also not that much because of lacking damage mods. Lastly there is the blob thing. A group of nano ships isn't easy to catch and can deal much damage. But here it's the same like solo nanos: They have to slow down to deal damage. And if the nano fleet is bigger than the target fleet, it's the same like non-nano: advantage for the bigger blob. So please give me a clue ^^ I don't want to nano my ships and I don't want to believe they are such uber...
Trojanman190 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.24 20:17:00 - [2] Edited by: Trojanman190 on 24/07/2008 20:30:53 Its a really complicated subject dood... The speed is a boon and a curse. It allows a nano gang to cover many systems in a short amount of time, which means more kills. So it's FUN. That's important considering this is a game and all. When catching lone ratters they melt fast to the group of nanoships because they have enough dps to kill the ship without any of them getting killed. This means vagabonds aproaching to 2km for maximum damage. I think most of the complaints about nanoers is that a ratter does not stand a chance against a group of them and this view as invulerable has gotten a little out of control. If they were all in tanked battleships you would still die... The speed is a curse too because many of these nanoships have to operate relatively close to their targets. The vagabond is fairly worthless beyond 20km. The zealot about 30km - 35km. The ishtar relies greatly on its all to killable drones. So against a single target, its wtfpwn... but 10 on 1s are like that... But watch a nano gang take on a large blob of tanked ships, what happens? Stragglers get picked off... and slowly. The nanoships cannot come in close to the blob for fear of webs and the loss of 200mil isk ships. The blob cant really do anything to them because they wont come close enough for the above stated reason. So both sides get kills off of the mistakes of others. If to many mistakes are made for the nanoers they high tale it... if to many mistakes are made for the tanked ships the ones that didnt make a mistake, ie are in docking range or whatever, get out. So basically.. in that situation, if nobody ****ed up, nobody would get any kills and maybe nanoers wouldnt get this rep. Just because everytime a ratter gets ganked its a nanoship doing the ganking does not make them overpowered. And think of the alternative... if there were no nanoers then these high sp players would have to roll in large groups of well fit battleships to combat the blobs... so it would be blobs vs better fit blob and people would STILL complain. "RRs are overpowered, nerf buffers, add more aoe weapons!" blah blah blah. And even worse... having a titan would completely screw this style of gameplay. Why engage an enemy you know has a titan when your ships cant escape as well as a nanoship can. [yea i hate titans] Only those battleship gangs take FOREVER to move around and generally don't get many fights because of this fact. Couple that with the fact that the whole gang is easy to spot and thus out blob + the fact that a titan can smoke most of the gang or leave it in a state where a bunch of cruisers can roll in and finish it off... its not fun. No fights = not fun. So in short.. why do we nano? More pew pew = more fun.
Jim Raynor Caldari Shinra	Posted - 2008.07.24 20:21:00 - [3] Originally by: Denuo Secus Call me a newb, but with no real PvP experience yet I have to ask this. Nano ships in my understanding: - extreme fast (> 3000 m/s) - small or no tank/buffer (speed tank) - not much DPS (no damage mods because of speed mods) Nano ships are difficult to catch. Even webbed they are able to dictate range. But - they have to slow down if they want to do some damage, don't they? And they cannot do damage like a gank fitted ship I guess. So my thought: If they want to do damage -> I've better chances to catch them. If they are to fast for catching -> they cannot deal damage. This consideration is about turret ships. A drone nano is like any drone ship: I can destroy the drones. It could be difficult for some fittings but I see no difference to non-nano drone ships. And there are missile nano ships. These are the only I think they can do damage _and_ speed tank. But damage from these ships is also not that much because of lacking damage mods. Lastly there is the blob thing. A group of nano ships isn't easy to catch and can deal much damage. But here it's the same like solo nanos: They have to slow down to deal damage. And if the nano fleet is bigger than the target fleet, it's the same like non-nano: advantage for the bigger blob. So please give me a clue ^^ I don't want to nano my ships and I don't want to believe they are such uber... Sac can do 3.3km/s before gang/hardwirings, 485dps, and can sustain MWD forever with about 30,000hp buffer, ya that totally sux. ------ I'll make a sig later.
Furb Killer Gallente USC Militia	Posted - 2008.07.24 20:22:00 - [4] They do less damage than when not nano'd, but i wouldnt say that a zealot or vagabond has low dps. And an ishtars drones can be destroyed, but it takes a while to destroy all its ogre II drones. And when it slows down to be able to hit you better, and you try to get closer, he will immediatly increase speed again.
Mirilene Thingol	Posted - 2008.07.24 20:25:00 - [5] While it is true that nano ships can usually not do as much damage as gank fitted ships, many nano ships can do enough damage to break all but the hardest tanks. Since they can dictate range, that is all that is required. Even if a tanked ship is only letting in a small amount of dps, the nano ship will win over time, since the victim often has no chance of shooting back effectively. Another consideration is that a lot of nano-ships fit medium range weaponry (15-25km). This allows them to slow down and do more damage, while still remaining outside the optimal of most target ships. They can pulse the mwd to maintain the range.
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2008.07.24 21:39:00 - [6] Ok, thanks a lot for your responses! Brought me much more understanding of this topic. Now I don't see nanos as a special problem. I like diversity, the sandbox and I like challenges. In fact I try to see nanos just as a special fitting variant or role. Why not. As I learned in this forum there are several other special fittings or roles that _can_ counter nanos directly: Minmatar HAC with it's web, Amarr HAC with neut, Caldari HAC with light precision missiles or a heavy tackler together with one or two snipers. And as you said already - it's not only about fitting. It's about tactics and also opportunity. So I hope a well thought-out fleet or gang should be able to counter nanos, even by just bringing in some own "fast ships" for this task :) Of couse it's a problem for solo PvPers. But that's not my game fortunately ^^ IMHO team play and role play (role in a fleet) is much more fun....
Zunat Baza	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:00:00 - [7] As a noob Im a little confused - shouldnt a webber be adequate to deal with the situation?
Foocurr	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Jim Raynor Sac can do 3.3km/s before gang/hardwirings, 485dps, and can sustain MWD forever with about 30,000hp buffer, ya that totally sux. Have you ever flown that setup? That requires 3 damage mods, 2 ODII, T2 HAMs, 2 polycarbs and LEVEL 5 skills. Meaning: 1. You're as agile as a piano. 2. Your damage only hits below 20km 3. Taking #2 into account, your orbit speed will not be sufficient to speed tank properly. Oh and where you got the 30k buffer is beyond me. No one will fly that setup without implants of some sort. TBH, hardwirings wouldn't make this setup effective for the price. LG-Snakes might, but thats another billion isk investment. However, you'll still want some agility, so you'll have to sacrifice some top speed for it. Spend some more to gain the lost speed back while your at it with a faction MWD. Now you're looking at spending 1.5 billion to have a ship that does about 5500m/s, 480 DPS, has no tank, and dies horribly to the first competent gang with a rapier pilot. Just shows how much these whiners don't know.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Zunat Baza As a noob Im a little confused - shouldnt a webber be adequate to deal with the situation? not at 11+ km, that is the main problem, a certain web fix whould solve some of these issues... Linkage to web fix Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Thenoran Caldari Border Rim Enterprises	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:13:00 - [10] Originally by: Zunat Baza As a noob Im a little confused - shouldnt a webber be adequate to deal with the situation? Webs have limited range and you need to be alive to use them ------------------------ Ship Yield Calc Improve Mining
Foocurr	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:16:00 - [11] Originally by: Dristra Originally by: Zunat Baza As a noob Im a little confused - shouldnt a webber be adequate to deal with the situation? not at 11+ km, that is the main problem, a certain web fix whould solve some of these issues... Linkage to web fix hmm all my webs overload to 13km. my faction webs overload to 16-18km. then you say, "So we are expected to buy faction equipment just to slow down these nano***s? OVERPOWERED! UNFAIR!" well, your target has likely bought all kinds of expensive goodies in order avoid being caught by you.
Foocurr	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:18:00 - [12] Edited by: Foocurr on 24/07/2008 22:18:25 Originally by: Thenoran Originally by: Zunat Baza As a noob Im a little confused - shouldnt a webber be adequate to deal with the situation? Webs have limited range and you need to be alive to use them I hope you realize, a max skilled rapier pilot can overload his web(s) to 52km
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:18:00 - [13] Originally by: Zunat Baza As a noob Im a little confused - shouldnt a webber be adequate to deal with the situation? No. A 3000m/s ship would still do 300m/s when webbed with 90%. And - more important - not every nano ship comes close enough. You'll just don't catch it with 10km webs. But if you bring in some special stuff and more than one ship I think the situation changes. for instance a tackler with two webs? Or two tackler? Or teh Minmatar HAC with 40km web. And so on... specialisation is the key IMHO.
Foocurr	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Denuo Secus No. A 3000m/s ship would still do 300m/s when webbed with 90%. And - more important - not every nano ship comes close enough. You'll just don't catch it with 10km webs. But if you bring in some special stuff and more than one ship I think the situation changes. for instance a tackler with two webs? Or two tackler? Or teh Minmatar HAC with 40km web. And so on... specialisation is the key IMHO. More experienced players siding for the anti-nano. WTB "teh Minmatar HAC with 40km web" ******s
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Foocurr Originally by: Denuo Secus No. A 3000m/s ship would still do 300m/s when webbed with 90%. And - more important - not every nano ship comes close enough. You'll just don't catch it with 10km webs. But if you bring in some special stuff and more than one ship I think the situation changes. for instance a tackler with two webs? Or two tackler? Or teh Minmatar recon with 40km web. And so on... specialisation is the key IMHO. More experienced players siding for the anti-nano. WTB "teh Minmatar HAC with 40km web" ******s Fixed it :P
Foocurr	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:31:00 - [16] BTW, I see what you are doing here.
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Foocurr BTW, I see what you are doing here. Shiny :) Yep, good to have this forum - I learn so much here ^^
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:45:00 - [18] There are several types of nanos you'll run into and most all of them have fairly stiff buffers, the zealot is probably the most notable exception as it tends to be somewhat squishy. There's the exceptionally fast vaga which does poor dps and can only do a couple highs worth of missile dps without slowing down but it is unrivaled in speed. This is probably the ship people think of most when someone says nano, it's really just a big interceptor, IMO. Then there are dps nanos--the ishtar, zealot, sac for example. These hit hard and can generally do their damage on the move but their weapon systems come with downsides: drones are destroyable, missiles can be outrun, and the zealot's lasers suck cap. These are the really dangerous ones, IMO, because they have both the speed to dictate the engagement and they have the muscle to straight up overpower ships that can fend off a vaga. The ewar ones have a tendency to really increase what a nano gang can take on. An arazu allows the gang to keep more range, a curse shuts down other nanos and heavy neuts, and a rapier/huggin shuts down other fast stuff. Falcons often come along but they don't really fit the "nano" description.
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.25 03:44:00 - [19] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Denuo Secus Call me a newb, but with no real PvP experience yet I have to ask this. Nano ships in my understanding: - extreme fast (> 3000 m/s) - small or no tank/buffer (speed tank) - not much DPS (no damage mods because of speed mods) Nano ships are difficult to catch. Even webbed they are able to dictate range. But - they have to slow down if they want to do some damage, don't they? And they cannot do damage like a gank fitted ship I guess. So my thought: If they want to do damage -> I've better chances to catch them. If they are to fast for catching -> they cannot deal damage. This consideration is about turret ships. A drone nano is like any drone ship: I can destroy the drones. It could be difficult for some fittings but I see no difference to non-nano drone ships. And there are missile nano ships. These are the only I think they can do damage _and_ speed tank. But damage from these ships is also not that much because of lacking damage mods. Lastly there is the blob thing. A group of nano ships isn't easy to catch and can deal much damage. But here it's the same like solo nanos: They have to slow down to deal damage. And if the nano fleet is bigger than the target fleet, it's the same like non-nano: advantage for the bigger blob. So please give me a clue ^^ I don't want to nano my ships and I don't want to believe they are such uber... Sac can do 3.3km/s before gang/hardwirings, 485dps, and can sustain MWD forever with about 30,000hp buffer, ya that totally sux. hardcore EFT whiner detected here. Fail pvper too. way to shine buddy you are the best
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.07.25 04:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Denuo Secus Edited by: Denuo Secus on 24/07/2008 22:29:52 Originally by: Zunat Baza As a noob Im a little confused - shouldnt a webber be adequate to deal with the situation? No. A 3000m/s ship would still do 300m/s when webbed with 90%. Are you implying that 300 m/s is anything more than near stand still?
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.25 05:47:00 - [21] Nano ships have a LOT of misconceptions about them. For the most part it's a RARE nano ship that can actually break that mytical invulnerabilty barrier (range dependent though I like to consider 6500m/s the effective barrier in most cases) - instead they simply get SOME damage mitigation. Most nano ships also sacrifice quite a bit of gank potential - afterall if a vagabond is flying too fast to be shot, he's flying too fast to shoot back. In short the vaga relies on drones almost entirely for damage if it wants to maintain it's speed "tank" The speed issue more or less is about control of the battlespace. If you're faster than your opponent then YOU dictate the range the battle happens at. If the battle is going poorly you're speed means you can escape where other ships would be forced to stand and fight while hoping for the best. Nano's, as a general rule, are not dangerous by themselves. Because of the issues the ships have about damage and tank it generall takes a group of them to engage most ships. The Ishtar and Sacriledge are notable exceptions because they are flexible enough to actually be able to kill a great many ships out there by themselves and their own weapon sytems are immune to the speed at which they travel. In short - it's not the nano ship that's overpowered or even the nano gang - it's simply the fact that speed is so critical at determining success or failure in modern Eve combat that a speed fit gang, even with the sacrifices that have to be made to allow it, are difficult to best for most fleet configuations. People will throw about facts and figures to support their sides of the argument but it simply boils down to a simple fact - if you DON'T have the modules to fight a nano you're going to die. (MWD, Energy Neutralizers, Web, turrets, precision light missiles, light drones (especially warrior II's and so on).
Solid Trust Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 06:22:00 - [22] What you have is this internal battle between the blobs and small roaming gangs. The blob wants to catch these small gangs and feel it is unfair that a smaller gang can get away. The problem lies in that if you made it so blobs can catch these small gangs then we would not have small gangs anymore except for frig gangs that do crap dps. The game will turn into an even bigger blob fest as that will become the only way to survive. A vote for (most) speed nerfs is a vote for big blobs.
RayBanJockey	Posted - 2008.07.25 06:29:00 - [23] Originally by: Foocurr BTW, I see what you are doing here. Haha, this. Blatant pro-nano post by the OP
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.07.25 06:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Solid Trust What you have is this internal battle between the blobs and small roaming gangs. The blob wants to catch these small gangs and feel it is unfair that a smaller gang can get away. The problem lies in that if you made it so blobs can catch these small gangs then we would not have small gangs anymore except for frig gangs that do crap dps. The game will turn into an even bigger blob fest as that will become the only way to survive. A vote for (most) speed nerfs is a vote for big blobs. this btw if you wanna have battle and capships online cry more. and it is not that hard to catch/kill a nano ship, just use some braincells.
Kano Sekor Amarr The Movement	Posted - 2008.07.25 06:37:00 - [25] The thing is with speed that naturally the fastest ship available for combat (Vagabond?) will always be able to dictate range and any tactic involved in catching it will be hard since it can generally get out of warp disruption range fast and warp out should you now have a tactic to dish out some damage to him. The answer lies in the webifiers, as it works right now when you web someone you lower their top speed and agility. Sounds good right? but wait for it.. when you web someone doing 4000 m/s to having a top speed of 400 m/s instead you lower their agility, so the time for slowing down the ship from 4000 m/s to 400m/s now takes longer due to the lowered agility. This lowered agility allows the ship to fly out of web range while it has its quite high velocity to regain its high agility and top speed. I believe this is sometimes referred to as 'kiting'. So how whould we want a webber to work? Well i whould guess that when you web someone you want em to slow down faster than they normally do not slower. Otherwise i think nanoships are fine ofc. the fastest ship in an engagement should have a lot of strategic advantages i mean its the fastest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Desu Sigs
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.25 08:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Kano Sekor The answer lies in the webifiers, as it works right now when you web someone you lower their top speed and agility. Sounds good right? but wait for it.. when you web someone doing 4000 m/s to having a top speed of 400 m/s instead you lower their agility, so the time for slowing down the ship from 4000 m/s to 400m/s now takes longer due to the lowered agility. This lowered agility allows the ship to fly out of web range while it has its quite high velocity to regain its high agility and top speed. I believe this is sometimes referred to as 'kiting'. Webs don't affect agility. What makes the nano-ship (particularly not a very agile one) take a while to deaccelerate is its inertia; the same thing which makes turning at high speed slower/etc. It gives it a chance to escape (but it doesn't always work, particularly if the nanoship cannot web the target as the target will have a MWD of its own). Of course, you need to lower the target's speed (read: have him webbed) for long enough for it to deaccelerate while you're accelerating (also: overload MWD, duh), else you won't lower his speed enough. Getting webbed and coasting out of range is not called kiting. It's called provoking death. I killed a guy like that who actually got out of webrange, only to be webbed the next moment because I was accelerating at his (future, he's not going to change course when webbed) direction on overheated MWD and the brief moment he was out of webrange didn't enable him to accelerate enough to clear it pernamently. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

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