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Corps side steping FW in attemps to effect it's outcome.

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Rhatar Khurin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.16 16:26:00 - [211] Originally by: Barstander So, I need a clarification... If I were in a corp, and I war dec'd Jericho Fraction would all of Star Fraction be red to me then? As in, would the war be limited to Jericho or would it be transferred to all of Star Fraction? Yes you would only be able to wardec Star Fraction as a whole as the Jericho fraction is part of an alliance.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.16 16:27:00 - [212] Originally by: Barstander So, I need a clarification... If I were in a corp, and I war dec'd Jericho Fraction would all of Star Fraction be red to me then? As in, would the war be limited to Jericho or would it be transferred to all of Star Fraction? You are confused into thinking that the Militia is an Alliance - it isn't. This is why its technically feasible for corps to be in alliances AND in the militia and will hopefully be implemented that way via a fix in the near future. Of course we'd love to be at war with the entire militia roster (and npc militia) but the game just isn't coded that way. For example Barstander - It would be possible for Jericho Fraction to leave Star Fraction and join the Caldari Militia and wardec other Caldari Militia corps. Whereas we couldn't join an Alliance and wardec other Alliance corps. Thats because the Militia is not an Alliance. Nice and clear? Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Barstander State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.16 16:40:00 - [213] Figures. I stand by my assertion that fleets should get to shoot on anyone who aggresses their fleet members. I'd like to hear some real arguments against it. So far, we have 'ibis flips can, gets shot and warps in fleet'. This of course relies on the miner foolishly shooting a can flipper in his barge. Also, this situation is not any different that current can flipper mechanics via a heavily outfitted rifter against a miner. The miner dies either way. Second we have the 'jade alt gets shot then SF comes through the gate with OMGWTFBQQ lazors and the jedi feel a great disturbance in the force' Near as I can tell, this argument amounts to pvp is bad. Hence, I claim that it is in fact SF who wants consensual pvp in that they don't want to be shot at by FW but want to kill its member corps.
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente aurorae pacificas	Posted - 2008.08.16 16:52:00 - [214] Although correctly stated, the militia is NOT an alliance it still isnt simply a communal channel. There are combined ops going on and an extension of collaboration between the various player corps of said alliance. Basically we have created a novelty, an anomaly. As such its not that far a stretch to create some new/different mechanic regarding war decs. Believe me when I say that I adamantly oppose any "nerfing" of wardecs, or encouraging the militias to become a sanctuary to escape valid wardecs BUT- and it really deserves the caps- BUT on the same hand, the current situation where griefer corps can single out corps and pick off single players within fleets is at the same time unacceptable. Mind you, I dont really know whats going on with SF and the squidies but simular occurances are happening within the other militias as well. These militias are best thought of as "proto-alliances", where several mechanics are shared (intel channels, communal war dec of the hostile miltias, communal goals etc) while not being the full blown player generated alliances in regards to restriction of membership etc. As such, I dont think its that much of a stretch to allow certain benefits towards militias in regards to criminal flagging of war targets, perhaps just for gangs? I dont know. I wouldnt want to encourage entire alliances decending on blackrise to gank all the noobies who are trying to learn how to pvp. Unlike 0.0 alliances we are dealing with concord- or at the least sentries. Unlike low sec alliances the militias are struggling with sufficient intel sources. You cant dec a single corp in an alliance- you are flagged to the entire alliance. Surely it makes sense to be somehow "flagged" by some mechanic to a proto-alliance. My opinion is that it war-deccers should be flagged to militia members, regardless of war dec. Some corps are operating a NRSDS (Not Red Star- Dont Shoot) policy, others are operating NBSI, others simply targets of opportunity. Considering a corporation war deccing a militia corp effectively holds up/ disrupts the communal war effort, there should be some form of retaliation availiable to miltia members to support their comrades. I dont know if that might open up more cans of proverbial worms or not???
Damion Zyne Des Esseintes Social Club	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:04:00 - [215] Originally by: Barstander Figures. Hence, I claim that it is in fact SF who wants consensual pvp in that they don't want to be shot at by FW but want to kill its member corps. Well, for all I know this comment and some of the others in this thread is pure trolling but I will fall for it AGAIN. If youre so desperate about shooting SF, what about you join a war decced corp or war dec SF ? Also, people that constantly wrongly accuse other players of exploiting should get banned from the forums. Its like the 3d or 4th caldari whine thread and its actually getting boring.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:05:00 - [216] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik You cant dec a single corp in an alliance- you are flagged to the entire alliance. Surely it makes sense to be somehow "flagged" by some mechanic to a proto-alliance. The terminology is wrong - you aren't "flagged" to the entire alliance you are "at war with" the entire alliance. That means both sides get to shoot the other at any time they have the opportunity. Problem with what is being asked for by Barstander is that it would be effectively a war dec against the npc militia members. The next step would be why is it possible for to wardec the npc militia AND not get attacked by npc spawns? So you'd get a situation where militia membership becomes a wardec avoidance exploit because anybody wardecced can simply join a militia and be safe from their aggressors in the relevant hisec. The other point Barstander is simply not getting is that you cannot tie aggression flags to gang/fleet membership without opening a whole can of exploit worms with people who will join and leave gangs purely to take advantage of aggression. This will lead to over glitches getting people concorded and gms being inundated with petitions asking why people lost their ships. Its an overcomplicated mess and its the inevitable consequence of allowing people to join a fleet and get aggression, leave a fleet and lose aggression. Reality is that npc militia membership makes you safe from wardecs. But it prevents you from helping your mates. Thats the pro and the negative right there. If you want to be safe -> stay in the npc militia. If you want to help your mates? -> join their corps. Its really very very simple. Quote: My opinion is that it war-deccers should be flagged to militia members, regardless of war dec. Some corps are operating a NRSDS (Not Red Star- Dont Shoot) policy, others are operating NBSI, others simply targets of opportunity. So why wouldn't any corp anywhere in eve that gets wardecced simply join a militia to complicate things? Its a crazy broad brush mechanic solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to help your friends in militia corps then join their corp. Quote: [Considering a corporation war deccing a militia corp effectively holds up/ disrupts the communal war effort, there should be some form of retaliation availiable to miltia members to support their comrades. I dont know if that might open up more cans of proverbial worms or not??? Well they could give ISK, they could use remote repping. they could share intel, they could join the wardecced corps and help directly? There are many many ways they can support their comrades right now. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Akiama Gallente Shugotenshi Genkuro	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:08:00 - [217] Simple fix. If your corp wardecs a corp that is part of the militia, your corp is considered an enemy of the militia, unless both corps are part of the same militia. This would make the NPC's of that militia target your corp in hi-sec. _______________________________________________________________ "Nice work dumbass." "I've given some thought to moving off the edge. Not an ideal location...maybe a place in the middle."
Barstander State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:10:00 - [218] Originally by: Damion Zyne Originally by: Barstander Figures. Hence, I claim that it is in fact SF who wants consensual pvp in that they don't want to be shot at by FW but want to kill its member corps. Well, for all I know this comment and some of the others in this thread is pure trolling but I will fall for it AGAIN. If youre so desperate about shooting SF, what about you join a war decced corp or war dec SF ? Also, people that constantly wrongly accuse other players of exploiting should get banned from the forums. Its like the 3d or 4th caldari whine thread and its actually getting boring. Fair enough, as long as people who don't read the thread before poasting also get banned. Because I've said a number of times now that it isn't an exploit, just lame.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:11:00 - [219] Originally by: Akiama Simple fix. If your corp wardecs a corp that is part of the militia, your corp is considered an enemy of the militia, unless both corps are part of the same militia. This would make the NPC's of that militia target your corp in hi-sec. and thus, any alliance can now be part of the FW properly.
leboe The Aftermath.	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:14:00 - [220] corewin I loved you in d3ath but I hate to see you being such a hypocrite. I asked you for any FW corps you wanted hit from the sidelines (or fat in your own militia you'd like trimmed) And you dropped names in a heartbeat (gallente milita: dont worry caldari your FC isnt a jerk ) Militia corps, as I understand it, are corporations fighting FOR and empire. Not as a part of it
Barstander State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:18:00 - [221] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik You cant dec a single corp in an alliance- you are flagged to the entire alliance. Surely it makes sense to be somehow "flagged" by some mechanic to a proto-alliance. The terminology is wrong - you aren't "flagged" to the entire alliance you are "at war with" the entire alliance. That means both sides get to shoot the other at any time they have the opportunity. Problem with what is being asked for by Barstander is that it would be effectively a war dec against the npc militia members. The next step would be why is it possible for to wardec the npc militia AND not get attacked by npc spawns? So you'd get a situation where militia membership becomes a wardec avoidance exploit because anybody wardecced can simply join a militia and be safe from their aggressors in the relevant hisec. The other point Barstander is simply not getting is that you cannot tie aggression flags to gang/fleet membership without opening a whole can of exploit worms with people who will join and leave gangs purely to take advantage of aggression. This will lead to over glitches getting people concorded and gms being inundated with petitions asking why people lost their ships. Its an overcomplicated mess and its the inevitable consequence of allowing people to join a fleet and get aggression, leave a fleet and lose aggression. Reality is that npc militia membership makes you safe from wardecs. But it prevents you from helping your mates. Thats the pro and the negative right there. If you want to be safe -> stay in the npc militia. If you want to help your mates? -> join their corps. Its really very very simple. Quote: My opinion is that it war-deccers should be flagged to militia members, regardless of war dec. Some corps are operating a NRSDS (Not Red Star- Dont Shoot) policy, others are operating NBSI, others simply targets of opportunity. So why wouldn't any corp anywhere in eve that gets wardecced simply join a militia to complicate things? Its a crazy broad brush mechanic solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to help your friends in militia corps then join their corp. Quote: [Considering a corporation war deccing a militia corp effectively holds up/ disrupts the communal war effort, there should be some form of retaliation availiable to miltia members to support their comrades. I dont know if that might open up more cans of proverbial worms or not??? Well they could give ISK, they could use remote repping. they could share intel, they could join the wardecced corps and help directly? There are many many ways they can support their comrades right now. Lets solve this problem then. I have a fleet. Member of fleet gets shot by SF. Everybody who is currently in the fleet gets to shoot at you for the next 15 min. Give me a situation where there would be some 'exploit' with this. I understand why we can't transfer war decs to the whole militia because you are right, it would just become a haven for war dec'd corps to hide (provided they had proper standing from all the members to actually join the militia). Hence, the short timer aggression. Further the game makes it pretty simple with the over view. If it blinks red, you can kill it. If it doesn't blink red, you probably shouldn't be shooting it in hi sec.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:19:00 - [222] Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Originally by: Akiama Simple fix. If your corp wardecs a corp that is part of the militia, your corp is considered an enemy of the militia, unless both corps are part of the same militia. This would make the NPC's of that militia target your corp in hi-sec. and thus, any alliance can now be part of the FW properly. Yep if it gets us a full wardec against the entire militia (npc corp+aligned corps) thats a fair enough trade. Thats the "declare against" option we were asking CCP to provide from the earliest discussions of FW. It should probably be a cheap/free wardec as well since the declare/against corp is getting no benefit apart from the fighting whereas the militia are of course getting their loyalty points and standings and whatnot. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Damion Zyne Des Esseintes Social Club	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:22:00 - [223] Originally by: Barstander Originally by: Damion Zyne Originally by: Barstander Figures. Hence, I claim that it is in fact SF who wants consensual pvp in that they don't want to be shot at by FW but want to kill its member corps. Well, for all I know this comment and some of the others in this thread is pure trolling but I will fall for it AGAIN. If youre so desperate about shooting SF, what about you join a war decced corp or war dec SF ? Also, people that constantly wrongly accuse other players of exploiting should get banned from the forums. Its like the 3d or 4th caldari whine thread and its actually getting boring. Fair enough, as long as people who don't read the thread before poasting also get banned. Because I've said a number of times now that it isn't an exploit, just lame. Sorry, missed that your name is actually people and that you might get confused when I type "people" and mean people instead of you Mr. People.
Barstander State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:27:00 - [224] Originally by: Damion Zyne Originally by: Barstander Originally by: Damion Zyne Originally by: Barstander Figures. Hence, I claim that it is in fact SF who wants consensual pvp in that they don't want to be shot at by FW but want to kill its member corps. Well, for all I know this comment and some of the others in this thread is pure trolling but I will fall for it AGAIN. If youre so desperate about shooting SF, what about you join a war decced corp or war dec SF ? Also, people that constantly wrongly accuse other players of exploiting should get banned from the forums. Its like the 3d or 4th caldari whine thread and its actually getting boring. Fair enough, as long as people who don't read the thread before poasting also get banned. Because I've said a number of times now that it isn't an exploit, just lame. Sorry, missed that your name is actually people and that you might get confused when I type "people" and mean people instead of you Mr. People. It is confusing when you poast directly after quoting me. Maybe you should try to be more precise.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:27:00 - [225] Originally by: Barstander Lets solve this problem then. I have a fleet. Member of fleet gets shot by SF. Everybody who is currently in the fleet gets to shoot at you for the next 15 min. Give me a situation where there would be some 'exploit' with this. Given that up to hundreds of players could suddenly have the right to attack without warning against the aggressor its like the ultimate login trap for pvp really. You see 1-2 war targets in a system (that just happen to be in a fleet including several hundred militia members) you attack the 1-2 war targets and suddenly 100 enemies with kill rights against you can fire in hisec? Thats not even remotely balanced. And its particularly bad because this is how it works in return. SF have 1-2 pilots in Nouv + (150 members of random corp idling around in system who just happen to be in our fleet) We present one of our ships to a lone war enemy on the tama gate and our guy gets shot - suddenly the other 150 people in our gang can fire back on the aggressor!) Thats beyond crazy and it gets worse. What if we just can flip at the gate and get a flag letting some random militia guy fire and get ganked by EVERYONE in our gang SF or non SF? You are chasing for a solution to a non existent problem and your "solution" is something that would cause a crazy impact to conflict all over eve. But the real solution is the thing you aren't addressing: Quote: Well they could give ISK, they could use remote repping. they could share intel, they could join the wardecced corps and help directly? There are many many ways they can support their comrades right now. Tell me whats wrong with what I'm telling you in the quote above. Why don't YOU want to do these things to support your militia mates? Please tell me so I can understand where you are coming from. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Damion Zyne Des Esseintes Social Club	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:49:00 - [226] In regards to flagging a war deccing corp/alliance to the entiry militia. It worth remembering that till the last expansion, that was FW, joining a gang with someone at war got actually you flagged. This was changed because CCP realised that this would hinder fleet creation in FW. Now asking that war deccing corps /alliances get flagged to the gang/fleet would be a 180 degree change to the original design and intention by CCP. As others allready pointed out, making the militia acting like an alliance, thus allowing war decs on the whole militia is really not in the best interest of the people asking for it
Barstander State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.16 17:57:00 - [227] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Barstander Lets solve this problem then. I have a fleet. Member of fleet gets shot by SF. Everybody who is currently in the fleet gets to shoot at you for the next 15 min. Give me a situation where there would be some 'exploit' with this. Given that up to hundreds of players could suddenly have the right to attack without warning against the aggressor its like the ultimate login trap for pvp really. You see 1-2 war targets in a system (that just happen to be in a fleet including several hundred militia members) you attack the 1-2 war targets and suddenly 100 enemies with kill rights against you can fire in hisec? Thats not even remotely balanced. And its particularly bad because this is how it works in return. SF have 1-2 pilots in Nouv + (150 members of random corp idling around in system who just happen to be in our fleet) We present one of our ships to a lone war enemy on the tama gate and our guy gets shot - suddenly the other 150 people in our gang can fire back on the aggressor!) Thats beyond crazy and it gets worse. What if we just can flip at the gate and get a flag letting some random militia guy fire and get ganked by EVERYONE in our gang SF or non SF? You are chasing for a solution to a non existent problem and your "solution" is something that would cause a crazy impact to conflict all over eve. But the real solution is the thing you aren't addressing: Quote: Well they could give ISK, they could use remote repping. they could share intel, they could join the wardecced corps and help directly? There are many many ways they can support their comrades right now. Tell me whats wrong with what I'm telling you in the quote above. Why don't YOU want to do these things to support your militia mates? Please tell me so I can understand where you are coming from. First Part. So yes, your objection is you want to kill militia people but not suffer the consequences from their gang. ok I get it. I still fail to see anything wrong with the situation you described. How is it unbalanced? Because people can have friends they gang with? Second. I fight in the militia. I'm not going to follow around one of our corps who has been war dec'd with a remote repper ship just on the off chance that they run into you. In fact, I'm pretty sure I can't actually use a remote repper. I contribute to our economy, I sell goods near cost to militia members, I fight the gal militia. You say we should focus all our attention and kill you, ignoring our duty to the state to fight against the gal militia. I didn't sign up to fight SF though, you are unaligned so normally I could care less about you. However, you purposely gank our member corps and FC. All the while, I have to sit 10km off and not be able to do anything about it. To put a finer point on it. Militia fleet jumps into low sec. Jade and his friends are there. They have a war dec against our fleet commander. They target and shoot the fleet commander. My unit is under attack, my commander in the militia is dying. Yet I have to take a security hit to defend him? If it were hi sec I couldn't even do that. Thats crap and you know it. The status quo is nonsensical and you know it. I'm seeking solutions that involve pvp to a very real problem.
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.16 18:06:00 - [228] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Dirk Magnum You do realize that preventing third parties from having any meaningful way of affecting Faction War is just another slide down the slippery slope to consensual PvP and arena-style combat. This does not belong in Eve, no matter how many people complain about it This. The OP wants consensual combat - he wants to be safe in his faction high-sec and pew-pew at ease when prepared for it by coming to low-sec. Cry me a river. The entirety of EvE has a wardec on me (I'm -10) and I get by OK. If you want to live in a corp, then you shouldn't have 100% protection in high-sec. At least you know when someone's coming for you, a privilege I don't have. This couldn't be so much farther from the truth. The reality is when you are building up a fleet and someone attacks your FC who no one else in the militia can attack without having an expensive war dec going, you wind up having to wait around for an hour and a half while the FC dodges these people. They basically camp their systems for hours waiting for them to undock and stalk them around hi sec so that they can't lead a fleet. I think all anyone wants is that when someone attacks the FC of your militia, you can attack them back. Because if that were the case, the militia would just pop SF's gank-crews. Militia is an alliance replacement, it should act like one. I can't go and wardec a single corp out of BoB without having all of BoB be able to attack me. People don't want immunity from PvP, they're in FW exactly because they want to PvP. However wardec'ing FC's and attacking them without the fleet being able to fight them without getting concord'd is an obvious exploit.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.16 18:17:00 - [229] sigh this is just going round in circles now.
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2008.08.16 18:28:00 - [230] Originally by: Damion Zyne In regards to flagging a war deccing corp/alliance to the entiry militia. It worth remembering that till the last expansion, that was FW, joining a gang with someone at war got actually you flagged. This was changed because CCP realised that this would hinder fleet creation in FW. Now asking that war deccing corps /alliances get flagged to the gang/fleet would be a 180 degree change to the original design and intention by CCP. As others allready pointed out, making the militia acting like an alliance, thus allowing war decs on the whole militia is really not in the best interest of the people asking for it Actually, it is precisely what we want. However, it would mean that SF would no longer be able to play the little agro games they are now. Look, agro rules don't have to be complicated to work correctly. You shoot at my gang, I get to shoot back for 15 minutes. You stop shooting, you lose agro (except to the war decd player of course). I've seen this in 0.0 before, but we don't have concord, so the entire fleet will jump in to save a single member, even if it's not "their fight" to begin with. All we want, is the same ability in FW. So far the only two even remotely valid points the star faction people have made is this 1) Miner could die when you hot drop a fleet on him. Yes, just like if you rolled an AF, HAC, BS, BC, or a strong frig on him. What changed exactly? Nothing. You can still kill any miner stupid enough to engage in combat. zero sum. 2) alt mechanics and A**holes that think they should be allowed to do what you (jade) so cleverly thought up. (alt-war-fw-hot fleet dropping action) I say, bring your fleet dropping action on. I can organize a bit of my own and we can meet in the middle and pew pew a bunch, it'll be GREAT! So yeah, SF is telling all of us how to play "Join their corp, join NPC corp, use gang support, etc etc... just so long as we don't figure out how to shoot at you guys, right? ______________________________________________ Goon FC(08/12/06):"its a trap" "that thing is fully operational"
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente aurorae pacificas	Posted - 2008.08.16 18:36:00 - [231] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well they could give ISK, they could use remote repping. they could share intel, they could join the wardecced corps and help directly? There are many many ways they can support their comrades right now. Tell me whats wrong with what I'm telling you in the quote above. Why don't YOU want to do these things to support your militia mates? Please tell me so I can understand where you are coming from. I have hi-lighted my main beef with the current mechanics. Just as you have pointed out above, a fleet's scout could view a system (even a hi-sec one) as 'free' of hostiles because he is not part of the corp you have war decced, yet any number of his fleet could be. Perhaps 1, perhaps 30. Tell me how is the militia fleets supposed to deal with this enormous void in intel. Btw- this doesnt just go for your corp. We have corps war deccing corps in the Gal militia. They are free to selectively engage portions of supposed 'united' fleets. Is this a good/fair/ balanced mechanic? Again I state- I am not seeking the militias to devolve into safe havens from war decs but I simply do not see a balanced situation currently. If war targets inherited some sort of flagging to combined militia fleets it would at the very least mean that fleets could protect members of their fleet rather than having to sit by and watch their fleet members suddenly popping. The element of suprise that the war deccers have cannot be over stated. Remember on the overviews of the rest of the fleet identifying the actual hostiles is hard enough. Its simply not even logical (from your roleplay POV- Im personally not a Rper) that you could engage sections of Caldari militia fleets in caldari sov space and not only does the navy not respond, but the other members of the fleet cannot engage either! Does that sound balanced, logical or dare I say it 'in the spirit of Eve'? Why would anyone even bother currently to join the militia and face the restrictions of hostile npc navies, the retaliation of the npc miltia corp and concord when they can conduct multiple wardecs and operate with impunity right under the militia's nose?
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.16 18:52:00 - [232] Originally by: Rhatar Khurin sigh this is just going round in circles now. Always does in this kind of thread. Ultimately the only logical response is to ignore it - I mean I've wasted 4-5 pages now trying to point out why what these militia guys are asking for will break the aggression mechanic for Eve and none of them care about anything beyond their own petty interests. These people don't want to listen to reason they just want things their own way. Got to say, it does kind illustrate why the Eve devs are so wary about posting on these forums at them moment. Its a hard thing to realize that some of the player base are frankly impossible to talk too. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.16 18:58:00 - [233] The only real solution i can think of disallowing corps to even join factional warfare to start with tbh. All the other suggestions are dubious at best. At least there wont be any knock-on effects with this.
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente aurorae pacificas	Posted - 2008.08.16 19:10:00 - [234] Edited by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik on 16/08/2008 19:21:43 Edited by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik on 16/08/2008 19:17:15 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rhatar Khurin sigh this is just going round in circles now. Always does in this kind of thread. Ultimately the only logical response is to ignore it - I mean I've wasted 4-5 pages now trying to point out why what these militia guys are asking for will break the aggression mechanic for Eve and none of them care about anything beyond their own petty interests. These people don't want to listen to reason they just want things their own way. Got to say, it does kind illustrate why the Eve devs are so wary about posting on these forums at them moment. Its a hard thing to realize that some of the player base are frankly impossible to talk too. How is this wnker a CSM delegate? You havn't even attempted to explain how the scenarios that I have mentioned above are balanced or even beneficial to FW, and even Eve in general. Dont try to brush it off by taking some non-existent psuedo intellectual highground, you just come off as a self involved git. Truth be told the problem probably doesnt have a solution that is going to make everyone happy or that is non edit- exploitable is the wrong word... unbalanced perhaps* but several things have become apparent. 1. The current mechanics are NOT fine. There is serious issues about the feasibility of intra-corp militia fleets when a portion of said fleet has been war-decced. 2. War deccers are able to theoretically and essentially by-pass checks and balances put in place to help protect noobies in militias from attack in high sec (what other purpose is there for the npc navies if not this?) 3. Reverting to old flagging methods can and probably will be used by wardec corps to continue to by-pass the checks and balances. Alternatively too strong a response could lead to the militias becoming safe havens from wardecs ( a possibility seemingly distained from ALL sides of this debate) 4. Jade has serious self delusions of grandeur and will hopefully be slapped into line by the rest of the CSM. Eve shouldnt revolve around your pss-ant alliance. If you want to go that far into RP merge your alliance into the militia and set up your own intel channels from within the milita. All else fails pull out of the militia and restart it. But dont excuse by-passing mechanics as "RP" cos no-one is buying that. Either wardec for whatever reason other than FW and all is well, or join a militia. You cant wave an RP excuse in front of clearly selectivity of targets and think you are coming out as the poor wittle RP who has to build his own sandcastle cos ccp wont let you play in the side of the sandpit reserved for beginners and players who want to avoid alliance bullshit. EDIT: Why is Pss censored and shit isnt??? That makes less sense than Jade does.
Barstander State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.16 19:17:00 - [235] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/08/2008 19:11:37 Originally by: Rhatar Khurin sigh this is just going round in circles now. Always does in this kind of thread. Ultimately the only logical response is to ignore it - I mean I've wasted 4-5 pages now trying to point out why what these militia guys are asking for will break the aggression mechanic for Eve and none of them care about anything beyond their own petty interests. These people don't want to listen to reason they just want things their own way. Got to say, it does kind illustrate why the Eve devs are so wary about posting on these forums at the moment. Its a hard thing to realize that some of the player base are frankly impossible to talk too. Prove to me how it breaks mechanics then! You've given two examples and I've countered them both. All you have said in response is 'oh noes!, we might actually have to pvp!' Seriously.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.16 19:26:00 - [236] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik How is this wnker a CSM delegate? You havn't even attempted to explain how the scenarios that I have mentioned above are balanced or even beneficial to FW, and even Eve in general. I've responded to you and you've ignored everything I said. Let me tell you something - the customer isn't always right and eve players can be colossal idiots too. This "problem" is manufactured by people who want everything their own way and are too lazy to use the tools provided to "fight back". Quote:* Dont try to brush it off by taking some non-existent psuedo intellectual highground, you just come off as a self involved git. Truth be told the problem probably doesnt have a solution that is going to make everyone happy or that is non exploitable but several things have become apparent. Nothing of sort has become apparent - and as long as you keep describing factual rebuttal as "non-existent psuedo intellectual highground" you will never see that. Quote: 1. The current mechanics are NOT fine. There is serious issues about the feasibility of intra-corp militia fleets when a portion of said fleet has been war-decced. That might be your opinion. It is not fact. In other people's opinion the current situation is absolutely fine and you are simply being lazy and refusing to respond effectively to the challenge of a wardec. Quote: 2. War deccers are able to theoretically and essentially by-pass checks and balances put in place to help protect noobies in militias from attack in high sec (what other purpose is there for the npc navies if not this?) Negative. It is impossible to war the npc militias and attack them in this way. It is possible to wardec corporations but corporations are by definition not for "noobies". There is nothing stopping you joining up with corps to protect and strengthen them from wardecs. There is nothing stopping you giving them ISK and ships, there is nothing stopping you repping their ships/hiring mercs/doing any one of dozens of actions to help them out. Instead you prefer to fill the forums with accusations of problems where none exist. Quote: 3. Reverting to old flagging methods can and probably will be used by wardec corps to continue to by-pass the checks and balances. Alternatively too strong a response could lead to the militias becoming safe havens from wardecs ( a possibility seemingly distained from ALL sides of this debate) What is this rubbish about "checks and balances". You cannot wardec an npc militia entity. You can wardec an corporation affilitated with the militia. A militia is not an alliance. We all know the mechanics, ccp know the mechanics, the system was designed this way for a reason - it allows genuine new players to join the npc militia and have their zoned pvp introduction while corps wishing to be involved have the additional risk of wardecs from the outside while benefiting from free wardecs against the enemy militia. It is utterly unreasonable to suggest that membership of an npc militia that cannot be attacked in hisec could allow you to attack other players from this absolute protection againsts incoming wardec. Quote: 4. Jade has serious self delusions of grandeur and will hopefully be slapped into line by the rest of the CSM. Eve shouldnt revolve around your ****-ant alliance. If you want to go that far into RP merge your alliance into the militia and set up your own intel channels from within the milita. All else fails pull out of the militia and restart it. Don't bet on it. And as for suggesting our RP don't hold your breath. When you take the time to discover who and what Star Fraction is and what we stand for it might be worth talking to your about such things but since you are currently speaking from near complete ignorance its a waste of both our time. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
d'hofren Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.16 19:27:00 - [237] Originally by: Locke DieDrake So yeah, SF is telling all of us how to play "Join their corp, join NPC corp, use gang support, etc etc... just so long as we don't figure out how to shoot at you guys, right? Or you could just war dec us..... It's simple; to avoid being decced, join the NPC corp and carry on with FW. If you want to fight back either Dec us from your militia affiliated corp or join one of the corps we dec. Please, please shoot at us. We would love a way to have a pop at all the factions but there is no transhumanist, anti inclosurist NPC Militia we can affiliate with. But lets get this straight you are complaining about being decced by an alliance that is only 150 pilots strong, be it's nature SF holds many slightly older less active pilots and so the average gang op burbles around the 10 - 20 man mark. It's not like a behemoth is wailing on you every day. Bunches like Earned In Blood have fought back and Blood in particular has fought back well. They are slightly under the cosh but holding their own and are hugely respected by me and many other SF pilots for that...
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.16 19:28:00 - [238] Originally by: Barstander Prove to me how it breaks mechanics then! You've given two examples and I've countered them both. All you have said in response is 'oh noes!, we might actually have to pvp!' Read the last 2 pages I guess. If that doesn't help then nothing much more I can say to you. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Ecky Ptang Achmed Fleet	Posted - 2008.08.16 19:31:00 - [239] recap: -militia corps cannot join an alliance for protection -militia corps are basicly confined to 1 faction spatial zone +militia corps get to shoot other faction militias -alliances decing militia corps get all space access -they repeatadly target vulnerable militia corps whom want to enjoy a feature of the latest expansion, with an rp argument that is flawed, forcing them to leave fw. -they openly influence and partake in the fw without any of the drawbacks, circumventing game mechanics. this is not just corp on corp warfare.
Namdor Amarr Section 3	Posted - 2008.08.16 19:32:00 - [240] Whiners: "Omg, there's nothing we can do!" Everyone else: Well, you can do this, this, this, this, or this. Whiners: "....but other than that, there's NOTHING WE CAN DO! IT'S UNFAIR!"

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