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SuiJuris	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:02:00 - [31] Edited by: SuiJuris on 25/07/2008 15:03:30 Originally by: Bielsibub Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 13:28:03 http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=574 I haven't seen much on this yet, so here we go. Here's the major points and posibilities for those who don't want to read through the whole thing. Originally by: CCP Nozh - Warp scramblers (the close range ones), are due for a complete makeover. Our current idea is to have MWD's deactivate as soon as they get hit by their effect, and continue to be disabled until the effect is lifted. - A brief reactivation delay added to the microwarpdrives might ensure a speedy target actually slowed down, and of course with the MWD disabled, a webifier would have an even greater effect. - Our current idea is to have MWD's only differ in capacitor capacity penalty as well as reactivation delay, instead of the speed progression between meta levels. - Currently when you're webbed it's pretty much game over unless you're doing more DPS or have a better tank. The 90% speed reduction makes combat too static and predictable when webifiers have been applied. To address this, webifiers in our proposed changes have been reduced in effectiveness down to between -50% and -60%. - Nanofibers and polycarbon engine housings changed to affect maximum velocity and agility (which is basically what they did before, through mass reduction) would ensure balance, morphing them into a mixture of overdrives and inertia stabilizers and thus stacking penalized against those modules. Our current implementation makes 3 nanofibers approximately as effective as 2 overdrives and 2 inertia stabilizers. This means, if one would want to fit for maximum speed, go for overdrives; maximum agility, fit inertia stabilizers; a bit of both, use nanofibers. - Polycarbon engine housings are overpowered, both in general and with regard to corresponding modules; this is because the tech1 version is currently more effective than a tech2 nanofiber. Following our changes we're looking at them being 30% less effective than their module counterparts, which is more similar to the difference between modules and rigs in other categories. - Our intent is to have overdrives range from approximately 7% to 12.5%; the high-grade snake set 24.7%; the low-grade snake set 16% and the gang bonuses down to 25.8% but with an added agility bonus. - Slot placement of other speed implants may shift Nerfbat 5 hit combo
Akyla Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:05:00 - [32] Originally by: Zraken Hawkwing Speed nerf = vaga less expensive? Actually, going faster than others will become more important because increasing speed is (much) more difficult. And the vaga is still king, with 5% per lvl bonus to speed. On top of that, webbing it will have less effect so it's less risky too strafe at low speeds(the vaga's only way to deliver its dps). So it might even become more expensive. ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
Bielsibub Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:07:00 - [33] Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 15:13:38 Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 15:11:43 Originally by: Akyla Originally by: Zraken Hawkwing Speed nerf = vaga less expensive? Actually, going faster than others will become more important because increasing speed is (much) more difficult. And the vaga is still king, with 5% per lvl bonus to speed. On top of that, webbing it will have less effect so it's less risky too strafe at low speeds(the vaga's only way to deliver its dps). So it might even become more expensive. Have you ever tried to solo gank a ratting BS in a current vaga? Originally by: Malcanis Today is a good day to be Caldari spec: range has just become vastly more important. Exactly. Fit a havy nuet, and a point on your Raven, and you will be invincible to solo gank attacks, as is pretty much the case now anyway. Talk about something that has no counter, this is it.
onetoke overtheline	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:07:00 - [34] might as well change the name of this patch to f-you matar
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:09:00 - [35] Originally by: onetoke overtheline might as well change the name of this patch to f-you matar The Minnie speed advantage just got more powerful.
Akyla Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:10:00 - [36] Originally by: Gypsio III The Minnie speed advantage just got more powerful. Exactly ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:11:00 - [37] I figure this will sock the fun out of two of the three ships I like to fly. So I'll probably just go play Age of Conan or Diablo III instead. I don't have a lot of free time as it is, so I doubt I'll have time to test anything out on Singularity before the nerfhammer hits. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
EveTerrorist Amarr	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:13:00 - [38] Originally by: Bielsibub CCP claims speed is "invincible" in this blog. I have some major issues with this. Originally by: CCP Nozh Currently weÆve got a number of different systems that affect speed that arenÆt stacking nerfed towards each other, resulting in phenomenal speed that in turn results in near invulnerability. Don't make things out worse than they are. Adapt, overcome or go play WoW. Eve
Bielsibub Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:18:00 - [39] Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 15:21:20 Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 15:20:37 Originally by: EveTerrorist Originally by: Bielsibub CCP claims speed is "invincible" in this blog. I have some major issues with this. Originally by: CCP Nozh Currently weÆve got a number of different systems that affect speed that arenÆt stacking nerfed towards each other, resulting in phenomenal speed that in turn results in near invulnerability. Don't make things out worse than they are. Adapt, overcome or go play WoW. Eve So they said near instead. It's not really significant. There are many things in this game that are "NEAR invulnerable" but they still have counters, just like nano-ships, they may be "few" counters, but they are still there. In solo pvp, many ships only have few "specific" counters, dosen't mean they should all be nerfed. The purposed changes include offering more counters AND decreasing the initial ability being countered, thus essentially nerfing it into oblivion. HAC pilots might as well just train into Ravens, because they will pretty much own 1v1 pvp now.
Kuzya Morozov Gallente L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:22:00 - [40] Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf...
Akyla Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:27:00 - [41] Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf... And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps. ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
Wardeneo	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:30:00 - [42] Originally by: Akyla Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf... And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps. exactly i think that the nano nerf shud effect all races bar minmitar, cos minmitar have rubbish tanks, rubbish dps to other races (in most cases) and now they want to nerf the only thing minmitar excells at --> spped, imo minmitar will be the worst race in the game after this nerf, just like ammar used to be --. thinks about training ammar ^^ wardeneo
Bielsibub Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:31:00 - [43] Originally by: Wardeneo Originally by: Akyla Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf... And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps. exactly i think that the nano nerf shud effect all races bar minmitar, cos minmitar have rubbish tanks, rubbish dps to other races (in most cases) and now they want to nerf the only thing minmitar excells at --> spped, imo minmitar will be the worst race in the game after this nerf, just like ammar used to be --. thinks about training ammar ^^ wardeneo EXACTLY!!
EveTerrorist Amarr	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:33:00 - [44] Originally by: Wardeneo Originally by: Akyla Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf... And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps. exactly i think that the nano nerf shud effect all races bar minmitar, cos minmitar have rubbish tanks, rubbish dps to other races (in most cases) and now they want to nerf the only thing minmitar excells at --> spped, imo minmitar will be the worst race in the game after this nerf, just like ammar used to be --. thinks about training ammar ^^ wardeneo Welcome to the land of the Amarr Recon. ;) Eve
Elhina Novae Amarr Destruction Reborn CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:34:00 - [45] As far as i see it, ships that were intended to be velocity monsters will still own in that area. Interceptors? Vagabond is design for speed thus will it still be able too speedtank. ------------ Somebody set up us the bomb
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:39:00 - [46] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/07/2008 15:40:02 It's a lovely buff to smaller ship classes. It's going to hurt larger ship classes somewhat, however. I approve of that though. Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf... -snakes nerfed -X-instinct doesn't provide speed buff -polycarbons nerfed What gives? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Trigos Trilobi X-Fire	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:55:00 - [47] Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 25/07/2008 15:57:22 Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 25/07/2008 15:56:26 Originally by: Dzajic Forgetting that since people cried about not being able to keep nanoHACs in web range, HOW THE HELL are you going to keep them at 7.5km. Am I the only one that thinks the scram mwd disable effect isn't meant for catching fast ships, but instead actually meant for tackling AB ships to disable mwd's on bigger ship class so that even webbed you maintain a speed advantage over the enemy and hence can speedtank a bit of turret fire? Also, nice buff for gallente recons aswell, we'll see multi-scram lachesises again :) All in all, it looks better than I thought, altho I'd still vote for a bit of a boost on AB effect and bit more detailed webbing changes, and maybe change the target painter bonus on minny recons for web effect bonus.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:57:00 - [48] Originally by: Zraken Hawkwing I wonder if the proposed changes will affect the short term pricing of vagas? Speed nerf = vaga less expensive? Hmm, I think its the other way round, vaga being the only HAC thats still viable in a speedfit. Situation now is that it may be the fastest of the HACs, still it relies largely on range dictation rather than pure sustained speed, so it doesnt effectively speedtank but rangetank. Its rather sprint->shoot->sprint than shoot-while-orbiting. Looking at devblog, this will be just fine under the assumption that the little green line which marks topspeed for HACs is the vaga. Imho, since other similar sized ships fitting for sustained speed have more trouble reaching critical speed in the first place, and are getting a big fat slap in the face with reactivation delay, I expect the odds shifting towards vagabonds for hit-n-run style combat. A real problem I see for interceptors really, for the tackling types reactivation delay can mean dying randomly when a volley of missiles hits at the wrong moment, wont necessarily help with popularity. Some combat inties will benefit, like the notoriously useless claw with its 2 mids when fit with a shortrange point. All in all, I'm rather sceptical about this, its really a lot of things fundamentally changing at the same time, expect side effects. Cant wait to give it a spin on sisi tho, you better make sure the mirror is up to date guys
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:06:00 - [49] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: onetoke overtheline might as well change the name of this patch to f-you matar The Minnie speed advantage just got more powerful. Indeed, minmatar may get hurt most, but a general slowdown will just accentuate the advantage they have, even more since some of the competitors on the field will we just be a tad bit too slow to compete anymore. What is left to find out tho is if speed will be worth anything at all, if the answer is yes minnie wins
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:09:00 - [50] Originally by: Bielsibub Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 13:27:36 CCP claims speed is "invincible" in this blog. I have some major issues with this. Anyone who actually pilots nano-speed ships like nano-hacs could tell you, that no matter what ridiculous speeds you can reach, your ship is far from invincible. The slightest error will land you bouncing off a gate or approaching too fast, or orbiting too close and you will find yourself in a horrible situation. People like to act as if speed is some magical force where you just it one button and you win. It is far from that. In general you are required to slow down to very slow speeds in order to actually deal damage to enemies, as mentioned it becomes very difficult and takes skill to actually control a ship at high speeds, not to mention the insane price it costs to make these setups. The nano-speed pilot takes a massive gamble every time he undocks, as one wrong move could end up in the loss of billions of isk. I would go as far as to say fairly sufficient balance already exists to counter pure speed setups. There are a myriad of counters that exist for hunting down speed fit ships. There are ships specifically resigned with web bonuses for tackling these sorts of setups. I will agree on one point, that a few more options, such as the modified warp scrambler, could not hurt. The current suggestions are almost as if CCP just want to remove one form of balance and replace it with another. "Let's slow everything down, but decrease the amount that statis webifiers decrease speed"? How is this different than keeping it the ways it is? I only see this nerf as completely destroying the small gang, hit and run, fast paced, lag free, part of the game that so many pvper currently enjoy. As I previously stated, I agree that more options to counter the speed, such as the ônewö Warp Scrambler is a decent idea. Currently, your counter to a speed gang pretty much requires an apposing gang with multiple Rapiers in it, no speed pilot in his right mind would go near it. The new Warp Scrambler would also breathe new life into the Arazu and make for some other very interesting combinations. However, drastically decreasing speed AND providing more options to counter the speed, is like a double whammy nerf, of a very fun part of this game. Are you silly? You dont need to go 10km a second to be in a successful small gang you dip. Ya know, some gangs actualyl sit at gates for 5min to wait for stuff. And if you're being chased, it doesnt matter how fast you're giong, cause you're still warping at the same speed. If anything, nano'ing was a bandaid for thsoe without good tactics or scouts. A normal gang of BC's and tacklers could get more kills by utilizing a good scanner than any amount of tards zipping around in their HACs just bombarding a system with tardery. ----------------- Friends Forever
Akyla Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:09:00 - [51] Originally by: Lilith Velkor What is left to find out tho is if speed will be worth anything at all, if the answer is yes minnie wins And realize that Minmatar ships also have the lowest signature. In combo with the best speed and an AB (with less effective webs), this might be very difficult to hit. ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
Pliskkenn Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:16:00 - [52] Originally by: Akyla Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf... And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps. Thast a bit of an exageration, if you want to just sit in an orbit and fire away you could slow down to 1300m/s and still be within the acceptable range. ---
SuiJuris	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:19:00 - [53] Overall I like the idea, we will have to see how drastic the effects really are. It might screw the balance between HAC's and BC's a little though because previously HAC's were generally good at going fast and the BC's had better tanks / ganks.
Bielsibub Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:19:00 - [54] Edited by: Bielsibub on 25/07/2008 16:20:58 Originally by: Pliskkenn Originally by: Akyla Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Next up - Vagabonds with faction afterburners, snakes, x-instict, and polycarbs going 6km/s after the nerf... And still needing to drop below 500 m/s to deliver any dps. Thast a bit of an exageration, if you want to just sit in an orbit and fire away you could slow down to 1300m/s and still be within the acceptable range. AC's have this thing called tracking, and with barrage (which is what gives you range), is horrible. HE's not just talking about range. You will have horrible DPS orbiting at 1300 m/s no matter what the range.
verde bandit Amarr Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:20:00 - [55] Edited by: verde bandit on 25/07/2008 16:22:14 Originally by: Kronos Hopeslayer 25% increase on Artillary alpha strike damage. 50% increase for autocannon rate of fire. 5-10% increase on resists for T1 ships. 15-20% increase on resists for T2 ships. The Muninn to receive an extra turret, 1 high slot to the mid slot, and a 10% increase in PG How about no ? You guys are really... idiots I can't find another word sorry... You already cry an ocean for an incoming nerf that you CAN'T test anything about it yet... Human stupidity amazes me everyday :o Reminder : 1 - Read a nerfbat devblog. 2 - Think about it. 3 - Test it on Sisi. 4 - Cry on forums. 5 - Profit.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:21:00 - [56] Originally by: Trigos Trilobi Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 25/07/2008 15:57:22 Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 25/07/2008 15:56:26 Originally by: Dzajic Forgetting that since people cried about not being able to keep nanoHACs in web range, HOW THE HELL are you going to keep them at 7.5km. Am I the only one that thinks the scram mwd disable effect isn't meant for catching fast ships, but instead actually meant for tackling AB ships to disable mwd's on bigger ship class so that even webbed you maintain a speed advantage over the enemy and hence can speedtank a bit of turret fire? Also, nice buff for gallente recons aswell, we'll see multi-scram lachesises again :) All in all, it looks better than I thought, altho I'd still vote for a bit of a boost on AB effect and bit more detailed webbing changes, and maybe change the target painter bonus on minny recons for web effect bonus. Correct. I'd like a AB slight buff too to make it easier to reapproach gates, but with the fix it's not going to be that mandatory, and yes, it's now a big boost to smaller stuff attacking bigger stuff. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Raymond Sterns Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:34:00 - [57] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Trigos Trilobi Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 25/07/2008 15:57:22 Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 25/07/2008 15:56:26 Originally by: Dzajic Forgetting that since people cried about not being able to keep nanoHACs in web range, HOW THE HELL are you going to keep them at 7.5km. Am I the only one that thinks the scram mwd disable effect isn't meant for catching fast ships, but instead actually meant for tackling AB ships to disable mwd's on bigger ship class so that even webbed you maintain a speed advantage over the enemy and hence can speedtank a bit of turret fire? Also, nice buff for gallente recons aswell, we'll see multi-scram lachesises again :) All in all, it looks better than I thought, altho I'd still vote for a bit of a boost on AB effect and bit more detailed webbing changes, and maybe change the target painter bonus on minny recons for web effect bonus. Correct. I'd like a AB slight buff too to make it easier to reapproach gates, but with the fix it's not going to be that mandatory, and yes, it's now a big boost to smaller stuff attacking bigger stuff. I'd rather AB gave an Agility bonus so it'd be easier to orbit something. Kind of fits into the Caldari way of thinking. _
Pax Empyrean	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:38:00 - [58] I like the change. With Web+Scram it's about as effective as a web was alone before, but afterburners are more effective than before. Oh yeah, and cry all you want, nano-jockeys.
Gneeznow Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:45:00 - [59] I like the changes, only reservation I have is that webs should not have their power reduced, it changes the goalposts in pvp and whole new tactics and strategies will have to be made, however it is now apparent that pvp ships are gonna have to carry more midslot items like scrams, double webs etc, putting in a high slot scram or web would be pretty cool for mid slot limited amarr, or caldari who need their mids for tank, or shield tanking minmatar.
xHalcyonx Amarr Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:54:00 - [60] I like the ideas of it all EXCEPT the MWD reactivation delay. Looks like we're going back to the old tank and gank days because idiots on a forum can't adapt. I mean why should they when whining is so much more effective? ------------------- ნỊs uʍop əpỊsdn This is my WAR FACE!

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