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Mortuus Minmatar Demonic Corp G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:08:00 - [121] This change makes frigates and destroyers useful. Frigates are the fast ships now, and can tackle well with their low sig. Dessies pwn frigates. Both ships get a role again! Occassus Republica <3
z3roskill	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:08:00 - [122] o/ As an old WoW player ill tell you guys a story... Long time ago shamans(nano) were overpowered and made every class cry A naked shaman with no equipment but his double handed axe could 1hit mages/priests/locks and everyone was sad. Shamans were laughing as they could win 5vs1 with their windfury and frostshoooock(mwd and pont) and filled the internet with videos of their achievements and metal backround music(have you seen the "teamwork-crow" video? The nerf-bat saw all these and bited the shamans in the ass.. Now shamans are 1 of the less usefull classes in WoW z3roskill
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:15:00 - [123] Originally by: Nightelf Mowhawk this will kill eve as we know it , for pvp'ers anyway. ofc i and i hope alot of other ppl with test the sh*t out of it when it drops in sisi on monday did you know EVE before the nano age? It was fun. ...
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:18:00 - [124] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Nightelf Mowhawk this will kill eve as we know it , for pvp'ers anyway. ofc i and i hope alot of other ppl with test the sh*t out of it when it drops in sisi on monday did you know EVE before the nano age? It was fun. So true. ________________ God is my Wingman
LOPEZ Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:32:00 - [125] I think people are getting ahead of them selfs. Im sure testing will piont out the buggs of the nurf.. just like all major nurfs eve has gone through. I do agree speed needs to be nurfd somewhat. It needs to be done evenly.. just like ccp added more hit pionts to ships so that fights would last longer and added a stacking nurf of damage mods. I agree with lowering ALL ship speeds according to their size and role. That way ships that are ment to be fast are still faster then ships that arent. The issue with MWD. Short for Micro Warp Drive. Meaning the reason your ship move so fast is because you are warping at a very very slow speed. If you gona nurf something. Do it right or not at all. Scrams and Disruptors are ment to stop you from warping.. hence they should turn ur mwd off. However both should do that same thing. not just scrams.. disruptors too. However this should poss all sorts of issues. I think Webs need to be fixed. Why do both tech 1 and 2 have the same range? Theres a reason why people dont use webs as much as they should. I think Webs should be the ones turning mwds off. But they need a major range change. just like u have 2 piont close range scram and 1 piont disruptors . WE should have 90% 10k webs as well as 20k 75% webs. Webs should play their roll and affect all propulsion mods. They shouldnt just slow you down but also turn mwds off. I also think its a good idea to have abs not be affected like mwds. since they have much less boost and it take alot longer to get to speed. Meh just some thoughts Revelation Eclipse
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:33:00 - [126] I TRIED reading that block of text, followed by block of smileys, but gave up halfway through.
Mortuus Minmatar Demonic Corp G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:36:00 - [127] Yea, pre-nano EvE was much more interesting. Lots of people I know are reactivating with these kind of changes going through. Speed isn't dead, its just been redistributed to the ships that SHOULD be capable of outrunning anything short of another of their kind. HACs will still outrun anything bigger than them, just not ships smaller than them....just like every other ship in EvE. Occassus Republica <3
Kuzya Morozov Gallente L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:36:00 - [128] WAAAAH IM QUITTING EVE MY IWIN BUTTON IS GONE
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:43:00 - [129] Originally by: Mortuus Yea, pre-nano EvE was much more interesting. Lots of people I know are reactivating with these kind of changes going through. Speed isn't dead, its just been redistributed to the ships that SHOULD be capable of outrunning anything short of another of their kind. HACs will still outrun anything bigger than them, just not ships smaller than them....just like every other ship in EvE. I don't mind the changes overall. Just feels to me like it's yet another nerf in a successive line of nerfs to Matar ships, heh. We'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm hoping a Matar revamp patch is upcoming at some point in the future.
Trader Jjenna	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:50:00 - [130] small gangs are essentially dead. What will 5 pilots do versus 30 - they cannot outrun them or harass them. Viva le blobs!
Mortuus Minmatar Demonic Corp G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.07.26 01:50:00 - [131] Are you kidding me? All speeds got lower, Minmatar will now have a clear advantage in speed in all ship classes. We used to rely on falloff to win, now we can go into Hail and EMP range to do more damage without an overwhelming fear of webs vs some opponents, and stay in barrage range vs others. Hell, with this change I will take on a blasterthron with a Vaga. Run straight up, stick to 0m, web, scram, done. (No, they cannot hit you at 0m or so if you turn off your MWD, yes I have killed one at that range before, much lulz) Occassus Republica <3
Pax Empyrean	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:05:00 - [132] I think it's funny how people say "But now 5 people can't attack 30" like it's some kind of problem. If your setup let you pick fights when the odds are 6:1 against, your setup was broken. I'd like to see bombs get fixed and made a viable counter for blobbing, and we'll see all sorts of interesting play in smaller groups. This is a huge step in the right direction.
Rathion	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:24:00 - [133] Originally by: Trader Jjenna small gangs are essentially dead. What will 5 pilots do versus 30 - they cannot outrun them or harass them. Viva le blobs! Somebody call the WAAAMBULENCE, you can't fight 1v6 anymore.... you SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO.
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:27:00 - [134] Originally by: Rathion Originally by: Trader Jjenna small gangs are essentially dead. What will 5 pilots do versus 30 - they cannot outrun them or harass them. Viva le blobs! Somebody call the WAAAMBULENCE, you can't fight 1v6 anymore.... you SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO. Read the dev blog they said they want small engagements like these to continue.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:30:00 - [135] Originally by: Mortuus Are you kidding me? All speeds got lower, Minmatar will now have a clear advantage in speed in all ship classes. We used to rely on falloff to win, now we can go into Hail and EMP range to do more damage without an overwhelming fear of webs vs some opponents, and stay in barrage range vs others. Hell, with this change I will take on a blasterthron with a Vaga. Run straight up, stick to 0m, web, scram, done. (No, they cannot hit you at 0m or so if you turn off your MWD, yes I have killed one at that range before, much lulz) There is so much fail in this post I won't even try. Congratulations sir, you lose the internet.
Rathion	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:30:00 - [136] And small engagements SHOULD continue, but whineing because someone is at a disadvantage outnumbered SIX vs ONE, is just dumb.
6Bagheera9 Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:33:00 - [137] Nano set-ups do need some nerfing, but we need to remember that its the only the extreme set-ups that are truly game breaking. I think that the proposed changes are in the right direct, but I would modify them as such: -Give warp scramblers a -50% speed boost to MWD effect and -20% for warp disruptors. -Equalize T1 speed rigs at 75% of the value of their corresponding T2 low slot module. T2 rigs would give a bonus equal to that of the T2 modules. -Drop the reactivation delay for MWDs. -Drop the proposed double stacking nerf penalty.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:38:00 - [138] Originally by: Trader Jjenna small gangs are essentially dead. What will 5 pilots do versus 30 - they cannot outrun them or harass them. Viva le blobs! Logic? Oh wait, lack of!
Mortuus Minmatar Demonic Corp G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:41:00 - [139] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Mortuus Are you kidding me? All speeds got lower, Minmatar will now have a clear advantage in speed in all ship classes. We used to rely on falloff to win, now we can go into Hail and EMP range to do more damage without an overwhelming fear of webs vs some opponents, and stay in barrage range vs others. Hell, with this change I will take on a blasterthron with a Vaga. Run straight up, stick to 0m, web, scram, done. (No, they cannot hit you at 0m or so if you turn off your MWD, yes I have killed one at that range before, much lulz) There is so much fail in this post I won't even try. Congratulations sir, you lose the internet. Yea, because I have never done it before...oh wait, you can get under the guns, and with the webs being nerfed to hell you can stay with them without needing to worry about it. A 7.5km scrambled mega will not outrun a webbed Vaga with no speed mod going. At those ranges they cannot hit you either. Been there, done it. Not hard. Falloff = less damage. Now I can close to range of most ships with a smaller one and not have to worry so much about a single web. How is this bad? Base speeds aren't changed, just the MWD multiplier and stacking for polycarbons and nanos. All Minmatar ships will still have a speed advantage in their class, they can still fight in falloff, and now have the extremely viable option of closing with a larger ship. I can tell from your corp history and massive amount of kills that you must know more about this than I do. Learn to fly Minmatar, it wasn't always all about sitting at 17k and pulsing your MWD on your nanoship. Occassus Republica <3
Gargamell Smurf	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:48:00 - [140] OK, look its a simple fact that nano-HAC gangs are MUCH too popular. Will this new development change that? I don't see why it would. I must say, it will be very nice to have an alternate option to webbers for tackling fast ships. But technically the only difference is now a tackler will require 1 more module in order to slow their target to the same degree as before, BUT now with weaker overdrives and rigs, the targets will be SLIGHTLY slower anyways, so it basically balances out. The only pilots who really lose much are the ones who fly SUPER high end fits, (Polycarbons, snakes, etc). Now they will have to find a new way to be untouchable.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:51:00 - [141] Originally by: Mortuus Yea, because I have never done it before...oh wait, you can get under the guns, and with the webs being nerfed to hell you can stay with them without needing to worry about it. Okay, so you get to fit this magic 7.5km disruptor and the mega doesn't? Doesn't sound very reasonable. If both ships have this magic disruptor, the mega will certainly have a web too. Have fun getting to 0. Quote: A 7.5km scrambled mega will not outrun a webbed Vaga with no speed mod going. At those ranges they cannot hit you either. Uh, duh. Again assuming you have this magic disruptor that shuts off MWDs. Quote: Been there, done it. Not hard. That's a negative. Any pilot worth their salt would have a vaga webbed, and then blown out of the sky. You're just being silly Quote: Falloff = less damage. Now I can close to range of most ships with a smaller one and not have to worry so much about a single web. How is this bad? Because unless you're playing theorycraft like you are now, you'll get blown out of the sky by superior damage, tracking, and tank. D'oh. Quote: Base speeds aren't changed, just the MWD multiplier and stacking for polycarbons and nanos. All Minmatar ships will still have a speed advantage in their class, they can still fight in falloff, and now have the extremely viable option of closing with a larger ship. Your 0km argument is great. Really, lets here more. It sounds like the future of eve. PS, a decently kitted vaga will scratch 3k/s now... seriously. Quote: I can tell from your corp history and massive amount of kills that you must know more about this than I do. Always top it off with an overused or pathetic personal insult. Congratulations. Quote: Learn to fly Minmatar, it wasn't always all about sitting at 17k and pulsing your MWD on your nanoship. Learn to fly. Haha. Mark another up on the overused category. Maybe I wouldn't have to sit at 17k with my nanoship if the rest of our race was half decent. Oops.
dust queen Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.07.26 03:57:00 - [142] every peen-swinger talking about "devs giving into the whiners" either didn't RTFB or missed this crucial part... Originally by: the frickin' dev blog If one then takes a look at the max velocity on missiles and drones, it is readily apparent that our combat system was never designed for such speeds. Even when we did some basic tests on our internal servers, with special high-speed missiles, we quickly noticed Destiny (our physics engine) behaving very strangely. the devs tested the nano setups and saw how broken it was for themselves (why they didn't test/announce their test long ago is beyond me, though) as many (including the devs) have said, this day was a long time in coming. nanos are (were) the single best choice for winning (or at least not losing) small and medium engagements. they are not and never were completely invincible, but you put yourself at far less risk than any other pvp setup, especially considering how effective they are (were) at killing. whine all you want, but it's hard to complain about nano setups being put into balance with non-nano setups, and it'll make for much more varied combat once an mwd is no longer mandatory.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.26 04:02:00 - [143] Dust, I can only speak for myself, but I don't so much mind the nano ships being nerfed. What I do dislike is the apparently slapshot way they're going about addressing the nano issue. They spent all of 5 hours in a meeting, came up with a list of changes that they plan to implement all at once (rather than a few at a time and balance from there), and they justified all this with a complete joke of a benchmark. Go check out the Vaga with "ordinary" gear that was used, heh, which includes t2 gear (okay) and a full set of high-grade snake implants (lulz). We'll have to see how it goes, but speaking for myself, this feels like they just took a sledgehammer to the problem, when all they needed was a chisel. And to a lesser extent, it feels like a nerf almost across the board for Matar ships, at least the cruisers. Since their cruisers were their one saving grace, meh, maybe Matar will get a buff in the future, haha.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer	Posted - 2008.07.26 04:34:00 - [144] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Nightelf Mowhawk this will kill eve as we know it , for pvp'ers anyway. ofc i and i hope alot of other ppl with test the sht out of it when it drops in sisi on monday did you know EVE before the nano age? It was fun. People actually pvp'ing SOLO! A variety of ships in roaming ops, from Frigate all the way to BS, all with differen roles! People relied on finesse and scouting to get kills and avoid defenders. I really cant see how ANY arguments by nano'ers has any relevence. ----------------- Friends Forever*
Amarr Dandy	Posted - 2008.07.26 04:53:00 - [145] This nurf will kill whole alliances? I see alot of angry PL whining here
Jim Raynor Caldari Shinra	Posted - 2008.07.26 05:22:00 - [146] Edited by: Jim Raynor on 26/07/2008 05:23:10 EVE wasnt broken before polycarb rigs -- it's fairly broken in my opinion at the moment -- the game should be more fun once 'ludicrous speed' is nerfed. I'd like to see more variety again. I like the changed to warp scramblers, since the WCS nerf they've been useless anyways. Would certainly love to see afterburners become useful again.. not all ships are MWD friendly.. Anyways, thumbs up for speed nerf.. ------ I'll make a sig later.
Styix	Posted - 2008.07.26 06:12:00 - [147] i would just like to voice my opinion , i feel that there are already nano ship counters in the game and feel that if these changes are made, i would have waisted a good deal of time and isk that could have been better distributed. i am against the nerf.
El Mauru Amarr Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.26 07:16:00 - [148] Edited by: El Mauru on 26/07/2008 07:17:22 Originally by: Akyla I really like the way they fixed this. Truly. Nanoships are currently too fast to force them into combat, yet if the nanoships themselves choose to attack they run the risk of getting webbed and dying without a fighting chance. So they only prey on really easy targets, which means no proper PvP combat. The current fix both makes them go slower so they can actually be engaged, while the change to webs means they can actually engage combat without risking instant-death. So, more interesting combat, with fast ships still a good choice for guerilla work. This pretty much hits the nail on the head imho. Tohugh there was always nano vs nano combat which was interesting in it's own way :-) -
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.26 07:35:00 - [149] Originally by: El Mauru Edited by: El Mauru on 26/07/2008 07:17:22 Originally by: Akyla I really like the way they fixed this. Truly. Nanoships are currently too fast to force them into combat, yet if the nanoships themselves choose to attack they run the risk of getting webbed and dying without a fighting chance. So they only prey on really easy targets, which means no proper PvP combat. The current fix both makes them go slower so they can actually be engaged, while the change to webs means they can actually engage combat without risking instant-death. So, more interesting combat, with fast ships still a good choice for guerilla work. This pretty much hits the nail on the head imho. Tohugh there was always nano vs nano combat which was interesting in it's own way :-) Most importantly, given just how exceedingly COMMON nano ships are and given just how. . . well invulnerable they are to medium missiles I too was forced down particular fitting paths. The ONLY weapon I've had for awhile to actually have a fighting chance to KILL a nano is the Assault Missile Launcher with precision lights, and even with two explosion velocity rigs there are the occasional cruiser that just ignores the missiles falling further and further behind (Specifically the more pimped vagabonds). People can cry about portions of nerfs and boosts - all this is part of the patch process of any MMO - some of you may have valid points even. But the fact of the matter was if you can go fast enough in a cruiser sized ship to evade cruiser sized weapon damage entirely something is fantastically wrong. Sure HML missiles could be boosted but that would simply mean the status quo would be maintained - fast ship would still be the be all end all for PVP. I have seen a lot of posts stating something along the lines of "This breaks Eve PVP" and such posts are at BEST grossly misinformed. There was a time when speed fits were fantastically rare - right about the time I joined the game. Tank/Gank/Ewar were the order of the day - speed was simply there for managing range (I.E. burning in close with a blaster boat, desperatly running for range as a caldari anything and so on). It wasn't until rigs came out that a the nano ship really came into vogue. People will talk all day about what is balance and what is not but lets face the music here - EVERY ship in PVP with limited exception fits a MWD. The vast majority of HAC hulls are going to immedeately be fitted for speed as a first (and sometimes only) consideration. Rather than bring "variation" to Eve combat as many propments of nanos say it's homogonized it. When I see a vagabond on my overview I KNOW it's in all likelyhood got the bog standard fit with the bog standard skills and will do the exact same thing as any other Vaga I've ever seen. Guriella combat is important in Eve for a LOT of reasons - firstly because it allows a weaker force to actually fight a more powerful opponent. More importantly it is rarely accompained by that TERRIBLE side effect of ship combat called lag. The nano ship has for quite awhile now been THE guirella combat vessel. Sure black ops ships are fairly terrible but the simple fact that a nano ship gang can blow through most gate camps with minimal casualties while having more combat potential that the Black Ops gang means there is really no reason whatsoever to use them. In short, Modern Eve combat is comprised of three flavors: Lowsec where PVP is generally a blend of the blob, the tank/spank/ewar and the nano, the 0.0 fleet battles and the nano fight. Is it too much to ask to shake up this status quo? Is it really too much to ask to force players to discard the crutch that is the nano fitting and come up with innovative new ideas? I have faith that the eve player base will quickly find a new set of tactics for most of the ships heavily affected by this - they always seem to figure something out. Me? I could never go fast anyway.
beor oranes Caldari Black Water.	Posted - 2008.07.26 07:40:00 - [150] Just read the dev blog and over all I like the sound of it. YAY SPEED NURF!!! :-) The 2 things that I didn't like the sound of was the changes to boosters and snake implants. I think boosters should stay as they are, a reduction in sig radius will mean that not many people would use them (I know I wouldn't). Snake implants should be inline with other implants, like crystal or slave. You pay through the nose for them anyway, why should you get less of a bonus?! (If both these points have already been said in the thread then sorry for repeating but I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thing) ------------------------------------------------ Either pick a dry year when fighting wars or civilize the moronic races and have no wars at all!

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