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DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 21:55:00 - [1] Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 22:02:46 Ok, i'm just going to list the nerfs I can think of in my last 2 years of playing. This is to illistrate a point. If you dont' have the patience scroll down to the last 2 paragraphs. Flavor of the Month: ECM. 1 or 2 modules would always increase the effectiveness of your ship. Whines begin Nerfed: ECM Power halved. Now requires specialized ship/modules, filling all the low slots too, to even get close to it's old power. --experienced players look for the new power in EVE-- Next FoM: Nanofibers. Speed becomes the new "it". A proper super-nano fitting costs hundreds of millions of isk at the cheapest, billions at the highest, and were increadibly powerful. Nano-battleships were extremely difficult to kill without specialized methods. Whines begin Nerfed: Nanofibers are split to make other modules more useful and tradeoffs between the modules are attained. Stacking penalties are also aplied. Now frigates still go fast, cruisers go fast but not super fast, and battleships are slow. --experienced players look for the new power in EVE-- FoM: Nosferatu. Nosferatu increase your cap, tank/guns/mods with it, while decreasing your opponents cap, tank/guns/mods with it. 1 or 2 on a ship will always be better. Exceedingly effective at killing Nanoship cap. Whines Begin. Nerfed: Nosferatu. They now only work when your cap is in a worse condition then your enemy. Basically now they're only usefull if you're $#@#ed anyways. A pain to the better player, but overall useless. --experienced players look for the new power in EVE-- FoM: Sensor Dampeners. If you're able to dictate range it's easy to keep your enemy from attacking at all. Extremely effective at it's best, but is difficult and very specialized. All or Nothing and excellent at killing weaker enemies "the ones who whine the most". Whines begin. Nerfed: Sensor Dampeners. Not only do you have to choose between lock range or scan resolution, but they've both been nerfed substantually. Now even the specialized SD ships are very very weak. --experienced players look for the new power in EVE-- FoM: Nano-ships. With all the alternatives removed/nerfed Nanos begin to take the limelight again. Especailly effective is the removal of nosferatu, the best counter to Nanos. Nanoships offer superior Survivabillity but require considerable investments and are offensively much weaker then the pure powerhouse equivilent in terms of isk. Whines abound --See recent events-- Future: --experienced players look for the new power in EVE-- Notice that everything CCP nerfed wound up with players just finding something else to replace it, until it was nerfed and replaced by something else. It's the good players that are always finding new things, and we always will find better things. It's kind of sad when people whine instead of adapting because good players will always find the best advantage while bad players will always lag behind. In truth Nanofibers are probebly one of the most balanced things on this list. Most whines come from people who encounter them in ships significantly cheaper because they thought they should be able to take them power wise, but can't finish them because of their trade of. Interestingly enough most whines revolve around transversal. Funny thing is most nano-pilots fly them for reasons entirely different then transversal just because what you can't hit they can't hit back. The whines here come from people who don't know what they're talking about. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:00:00 - [2] Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 22:03:21 Oh and I can almost guarentee the suggested changes will open up much larger loopholes then it will fix. My mouth drools at the possibillities of decreased web power. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:16:00 - [3] Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 No i think your lying,because if you were good at ship set ups you wouldnt of jumped on the Nano bandwagon and be here crying about the nerf. Isn't how good you are at a game based on your abillity to use the games rules for maximum effect? It's no different. I can guarentee IF the changes go live I'll be one of the first players looking for loopholes in the new system until that gets whined out. However it doesn't mean I want to see the changes go through. Some people have good reasons, but how many of you whiners have been in a nanoship and not just facing against them? Most, especially the ones with arguements like yours, dont' know what they're talking about. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:18:00 - [4] Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 22:18:33 Originally by: Cailais Good post - EVE always has been 'adapt, or die'. Good players who actually understand the wider scope of EVE warfare will stay on top. Poor players, who cant will wither and die (quite a lot). C. I'd say Great players: Adapt quickly and find the holes. Ok players: Watch the great players and follow suit in greater numbers. Bad players: Whine about changes instead of doing either of the above. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:49:00 - [5] Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 22:51:38 I've come up with 2 ways to exploit the new system. Assuming the changes come in exactly as the devs said them. 1) This one has been mentioned before and is not uber-poweful. Afterburning Assault frigates at close range. With the web changes it's as difficult to fight as modern interceptors, but much much more powerful. The only way to kill it is to overpower it with another frigate or gank it. This promotes the blob in addition to removing the solo-capible nanoships, which is bad. The only frigate that can overpower an AF is another AF. 2) This one I won't give away the exact details of. I'm keeping it for myself. It requies a bit of an investment, but it is possible to abuse the new system to amazing effect. If I am correct it will have all the advantages of a modern nanoship while being completely immune to everything nanos fear. With the decrease in modern nanoships it will have even less rivals to deal with. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:06:00 - [6] Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 23:13:20 Originally by: Zurrar the speeds it reaches isnt meant to be. nano really wasnt that much of a problem till rigs... i hate rigs... i wish it was like the good old days. You've never seen a Nano Battleships of old have you lol. Anyways rigs add to nanoship speed, but they don't really push nanoships very much farther then they already were without them. Only thing it really changes is the dynamics between 2 nanoships which doesn't really matter in this sense anyways. Nanos may have some issues, but drastic changes like this will probebly open more holes then it fixes. Notice that the 2 people argueing have entirely different reasons for believing nanoships have issues. Lots of people say nanos need to be nerfed but few can agree on why, lol. You can ask 20 different people and get 20 different answers. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:28:00 - [7] Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 23:30:33 Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 yes vagbonds should be the fastest cruiser but not that fast that they out run missiles. if cant get that into your thick skull well at least you got your vagabond for a month or 2 more. They're called "supporting arguments" and help your side greatly. "Because" is not considered one of them unless it is followed by something. "It's not supposed to be this way". Aside from your word why isn't it supposed to be this way? Also name me a HAC fit that can outrun an interceptor of equal cost. Then you have an arguement. Sorry, but you don't actually know what it's like to fly a nanoship. You can't make a fair judgement because you don't know. All I ask is that you try ice cream so you actually know how it tastes before you start ranting on how bad it is. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:12:00 - [8] Edited by: DubanFP on 26/07/2008 00:15:05 Originally by: Viqtoria it's called balancing the game, i'm sorry that you don't get how to manage an mmo, but it's really not my problem nor my intention to educate you tbh. Simply put, anything that begets itself simply is bad for the game, any game. Thank you for missing the enite point of my post entirely. Note that every nerf was followed by something as bad or worse as the nerfs before it. The current nerf is actually more balanced then everything that came before it. I can name at least 5 things that it'll open up that are far worse then anything EVE has ever seen. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:05:00 - [9] Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: Ozmodan When a cruiser outruns my interceptor, something is darn wrong. Yes, it means the ceptor pilot can't fit his ship right and needs to rethink what he's doing Originally by: Ozmodan When you abuse any portion of a game, especially one that is available only to the select group What game are you playing, Nano ships were available to everybody...nvm, your an idiot This _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.26 15:14:00 - [10] Sorry, but i'm not done with this thread yet. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.26 18:52:00 - [11] Edited by: DubanFP on 26/07/2008 18:55:56 Originally by: Arlenna Molatov So, what you are saying is...every pilot should skirt the combat/physics engine then? So what will EVE become if every player flys a nano ship? You mean a game where EVERY single pilot flys the same setups and the same ships? ... because it is SUCH A BIG GAME BREAKING ISSUE! lol. Your post assumes that Nanos are better then non nanos in every single way. Had you ever even tried a nanoship you would know that they they would anything but replace other ships if they were more accepted. Nanos are extremely expensive, you lose 1/10th as many but they cost you 10 times as much, deal significantly less damage then their normal equivilent in terms of SP and isk, and have several major vulnerabillities which when exploited render a nanoship completely helpless. Had you actually had 1st hand experience with a nanoship you would know this. I can fly several minmitar nanoships, but often I find myself flying a hurricane instead just because of the cost involved in losing them. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you'd die very quickly if you ever flown one because you'd think you are invincible which is very far from the truth. Oh and trust me. When it does die you'll be down A LOT of isk. Try and, and you'll find nanos are anything but invincible. I guarentee it. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:28:00 - [12] Edited by: DubanFP on 26/07/2008 19:30:48 Originally by: MotherMoon well lets see lets get my vaga 3 nanofiber II's 2 overdrive II's 1 10MN MWD II 2 polycarbon rigs snake set -don't have but I can use eft here 13,000m/s and 2 heavy nuets or a huginn will make your multi-billion isk ship it go 500 m/s without a tank. Remember tracking hurts the nanoship too you know. Name me a vagabond that can hit anything at that speed. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.27 00:37:00 - [13] Edited by: DubanFP on 27/07/2008 00:46:27 Originally by: MotherMoon well I may be a moron by that's why CCP is doing it becuase you can break it thus it must be fixed. if you don't think hitting 20,000m/s is bad for this game then keep on playing pretending it's not an issue. The only people who think nanos are completely broken are the ones who don't know what it's like to fly one. Just because YOU don't know how to kill one doesn't make it invincible. I can't seem to find a single person who says nanos are invincible that's actually flown one before. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.27 04:41:00 - [14] Edited by: DubanFP on 27/07/2008 04:45:35 Originally by: MotherMoon moonie is officially **ED uugghhh I'm not talking about nanos in combat never mind I suck at writing my point is only that going 20,000 m/s is bad. game balance? who gives a hit the game engine doesn't like it. yes you can kill if you lucky and most ship aren't going to go that fast. The sad part is you have no clue how things actually work. Vagabonds don't go 20km/s. 4-6km/s is more normal and even they can't hit anything at full speed. Other nanoships are closer to 2-4km/s. I've said it before and i'll say it again. Saying "Because it shouldn't be this way" is NOT a valid arguement. Go to any serious meeting and tell them "Because" without anything on how it helps/damages a plan/game/cashflow/etc and see what you get in response. Supporting arguements, USE THEM! Originally by:** MotherMoon jezz maybe I'm just having a bad night, or maybe working as a bug tester at nintendo. And I'm the queen of england. P.S. Army of alts posting in rapid sucession FTL. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.27 04:51:00 - [15] Edited by: DubanFP on 27/07/2008 04:56:16 The 2 people to support moon in rapid sucession are Khorvek: 2 month old character in a 1 man corp. Herateis: 1 month old character in the starting NPC corp. ... To support my case for alt abuse. See, supporting arguements for my "alt abuse" comment! _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.30 03:38:00 - [16] Edited by: DubanFP on 30/07/2008 03:45:46 Originally by: Beltantis Torrence How many people who play this game have over 20M SP dedicated towards HACs/etc and can burn hundreds of mil on a ship? This is just a 'if you haven't played X number of years your opinion doesn't count' argument. It doesn't take 3 years of experience to know that 'immune vs missiles' probably needs to be adjusted. Well apparrently it takes years of experience to know when "immune vs missiles" is a complete lie. Stuff like that is not common and guns have tracking just the same. All numbers that suggest that result from ignorance and poor usage of EFT. You don't seem to get that the entire "immune vs missiles" is a complete falacy. Had you actually flown nanoships before you whined you would know this. Blasters can't reach the range nanos fight at, drones can't catch them, and long range weapons simply don't stand a chance of tracking. After that anything a nanoship can track/hit he can be tracked/hit by a stronger ship equally. Honestly missiles are usually the one thing that drive nanoships off most efficiently because they require speeds beyond what nanos realistically reach. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.10 00:13:00 - [17] Yes this is a necro, but it is EXTREMELY relevent to recent events. I believe it is importaint to reopen. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.10 13:29:00 - [18] Edited by: DubanFP on 10/10/2008 13:29:26 Originally by: KhaelaMensha Khaine In summary, nanoships provided a counter to being 'blobbed to death' thereby restoring the ability to roam in small gangs and perform guerilla style 'hit and run' pvp Agreed
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.11 12:53:00 - [19] Originally by: Cybele Lanier With nanoships apparently doing no damage and being so easy to counter, it makes you wonder exactly why they're so popular and why people are prepared to spend so much on them. Because nobody seems to know how to counter them and instead whine about it. Even if people did it's still a lot safer then risking a few hundred mil on a much more powerful death trap. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.11 18:36:00 - [20] Originally by: Xeronn IMHO the issue isnt about missilez, transversals,drones, the big picture is about the mechanics behind forcing engagements and/or disengaging . I don`t claim to know what a "good" balance would be , but imho , when a certain type of fit/style can allways decide the engagement and/or disengagement things need adjusted just my .02 isk This is a very good post although it's difficult to figure out your opinion on the sugested nano nerfs. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.

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