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DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 21:55:00 - [1] Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 22:02:46 Ok, i'm just going to list the nerfs I can think of in my last 2 years of playing. This is to illistrate a point. If you dont' have the patience scroll down to the last 2 paragraphs. Flavor of the Month: ECM. 1 or 2 modules would always increase the effectiveness of your ship. Whines begin Nerfed: ECM Power halved. Now requires specialized ship/modules, filling all the low slots too, to even get close to it's old power. --experienced players look for the new power in EVE-- Next FoM: Nanofibers. Speed becomes the new "it". A proper super-nano fitting costs hundreds of millions of isk at the cheapest, billions at the highest, and were increadibly powerful. Nano-battleships were extremely difficult to kill without specialized methods. Whines begin Nerfed: Nanofibers are split to make other modules more useful and tradeoffs between the modules are attained. Stacking penalties are also aplied. Now frigates still go fast, cruisers go fast but not super fast, and battleships are slow. --experienced players look for the new power in EVE-- FoM: Nosferatu. Nosferatu increase your cap, tank/guns/mods with it, while decreasing your opponents cap, tank/guns/mods with it. 1 or 2 on a ship will always be better. Exceedingly effective at killing Nanoship cap. Whines Begin. Nerfed: Nosferatu. They now only work when your cap is in a worse condition then your enemy. Basically now they're only usefull if you're $#@#ed anyways. A pain to the better player, but overall useless. --experienced players look for the new power in EVE-- FoM: Sensor Dampeners. If you're able to dictate range it's easy to keep your enemy from attacking at all. Extremely effective at it's best, but is difficult and very specialized. All or Nothing and excellent at killing weaker enemies "the ones who whine the most". Whines begin. Nerfed: Sensor Dampeners. Not only do you have to choose between lock range or scan resolution, but they've both been nerfed substantually. Now even the specialized SD ships are very very weak. --experienced players look for the new power in EVE-- FoM: Nano-ships. With all the alternatives removed/nerfed Nanos begin to take the limelight again. Especailly effective is the removal of nosferatu, the best counter to Nanos. Nanoships offer superior Survivabillity but require considerable investments and are offensively much weaker then the pure powerhouse equivilent in terms of isk. Whines abound --See recent events-- Future: --experienced players look for the new power in EVE-- Notice that everything CCP nerfed wound up with players just finding something else to replace it, until it was nerfed and replaced by something else. It's the good players that are always finding new things, and we always will find better things. It's kind of sad when people whine instead of adapting because good players will always find the best advantage while bad players will always lag behind. In truth Nanofibers are probebly one of the most balanced things on this list. Most whines come from people who encounter them in ships significantly cheaper because they thought they should be able to take them power wise, but can't finish them because of their trade of. Interestingly enough most whines revolve around transversal. Funny thing is most nano-pilots fly them for reasons entirely different then transversal just because what you can't hit they can't hit back. The whines here come from people who don't know what they're talking about. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
OVERCOPES 1 Amarr Amarr Secret Service	Posted - 2008.07.25 21:57:00 - [2] Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 25/07/2008 21:58:50 Fail. So a cruiser out running missiles is balanced.Hmmmmmm Technolisa>those yellow things work better than platinum insurance :P
justsometrader	Posted - 2008.07.25 21:58:00 - [3] much text much whine much fail
Napro Caldari Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.07.25 21:58:00 - [4] Quote: --exploitative players look for the new exploit in EVE-- Fixed Rest is all true
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:00:00 - [5] Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 22:03:21 Oh and I can almost guarentee the suggested changes will open up much larger loopholes then it will fix. My mouth drools at the possibillities of decreased web power. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
OVERCOPES 1 Amarr Amarr Secret Service	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:04:00 - [6] Originally by: DubanFP Oh and I can almost guarentee the suggested changes will open up more loopholes then it will fix. My mouth drools at the possibillities. No i think your lying,because if you were good at ship set ups you wouldnt of jumped on the Nano bandwagon and be here crying about the nerf. NEXT!!!!! Technolisa>those yellow things work better than platinum insurance :P
justsometrader	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:06:00 - [7] Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 Originally by: DubanFP Oh and I can almost guarentee the suggested changes will open up more loopholes then it will fix. My mouth drools at the possibillities. No i think your lying,because if you were good at ship set ups you wouldnt of jumped on the Nano bandwagon and be here crying about the nerf. NEXT!!!!! dude you face
Troezar Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:08:00 - [8] Tiny changes really when you consider how much Eve has changed since 2003. Anyone fancy a mining nerf back to the days it took weeks to mine for a BS in a cruiser?! How about BS weapons insta popping frigs in the days before transversal tracking probems? The old 7 heatsink Geddon maybe? In the context of Eve history not really significant...
MenanceWhite Amarr Red Light Navy	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:10:00 - [9] Quote: Q: Why don't most games have some sort of feature that allows for stat distribution? Example being games such as Ragnarok Online and Maple Story, generally most Korean games have this. By stat distribution, I'm talking about something where whenever you level up, you gain points to spend on leveling up different stats, rather than having a set amount depending on the class you choose, and having to rely on armor. It just seems lame how in games such as WoW every class can be the same if they use the same armor, whereas something such as Ragnarok you can have such a dynamic, unique character. Is it simply too complicated to implement, or is it something better tuned for a grinding based game? I know all MMO's are meant to be different, unique experiences, but wouldn't most companies rather break the mold and go for something that allows for extreme customization? A: Newer games don't allow for stat pumping (or even choosing them at all) because people will make the (possibly) wrong decisions and gimp their character. Then they get ANGRY about it. So, newer games took out that temptation. I mean, if as a mage you should always pump INT, why not just have the game pump INT for you? Remove the temptation of your deciding you're going to be that one unique and special snowflake that is a muscleman wizard. But man, I remember when cruises instapopped frigs - good stuff man. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Leyvan	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:15:00 - [10] Quote: A: Newer patches don't allow for module fitting (or even choosing them at all) because people will make the (possibly) wrong decisions and gimp their ship. Then they get ANGRY and forum whine about it. So, newer games took out that temptation. I mean, if you fly ship X you should always have that cookie-cutter fitting, why not just have the game fit the ship for you? Remove the temptation of your deciding you're going to be that one unique and special snowflake that is a passive shieldtanked geddeon. EVE EDITION MAN
GallenteCitizen20080615 Gallente Federation War News	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:15:00 - [11] Originally by: justsometrader much text much whine much fail votes for new galactic overlord
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:16:00 - [12] Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 No i think your lying,because if you were good at ship set ups you wouldnt of jumped on the Nano bandwagon and be here crying about the nerf. Isn't how good you are at a game based on your abillity to use the games rules for maximum effect? It's no different. I can guarentee IF the changes go live I'll be one of the first players looking for loopholes in the new system until that gets whined out. However it doesn't mean I want to see the changes go through. Some people have good reasons, but how many of you whiners have been in a nanoship and not just facing against them? Most, especially the ones with arguements like yours, dont' know what they're talking about. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:16:00 - [13] Good post - EVE always has been 'adapt, or die'. Good players who actually understand the wider scope of EVE warfare will stay on top. Poor players, who cant will wither and die (quite a lot). C. Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:18:00 - [14] Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 22:18:33 Originally by: Cailais Good post - EVE always has been 'adapt, or die'. Good players who actually understand the wider scope of EVE warfare will stay on top. Poor players, who cant will wither and die (quite a lot). C. I'd say Great players: Adapt quickly and find the holes. Ok players: Watch the great players and follow suit in greater numbers. Bad players: Whine about changes instead of doing either of the above. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:20:00 - [15] Edited by: Zephyr Rengate on 25/07/2008 22:19:54 Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 25/07/2008 21:58:50 Fail. So a cruiser out running missiles is balanced.Hmmmmmm Missiles able to hit everything balanced?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:22:00 - [16] Originally by: DubanFP I'd say Great FoTM players: Adapt quickly and find the holes. Ok FoTM players: Watch the great players and follow suit in greater numbers. Bad FoTM players: Whine about changes instead of doing either of the above. Most players: Stick with whatever they like to fly. - DesuSigs
GallenteCitizen20080615 Gallente Federation War News	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:26:00 - [17] i like EOS can i whine now p.s i not going to whine now as i like my new set up
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:27:00 - [18] As a playerbase, your going to either be the type of player who sticks with what he likes to do despite all proof to the superiority of something else, or your the type who takes every advantage possible to win and succeed. The game is built around the latter. It won't change. I think nano's were being overused, myself, but I don't think they needed to be destroyed. And, if the changes from the dev blog go through, I don't think the honestly will be. They won't be as increadably effective as they are now, but there will still be plenty of fast pilots flying fast ships and avoiding guns. They even have less worry about with webs now. What I would like to see is giving players the ability to tank. Armor plates that require huge fits, but prevent your BS from taking any damage from small turrets and missiles. Some type of mitigation so that simply having more DPS in a fleet doesn't guarantee victory. There's more than one way to balance a coin. Stand it on it's end, or lay it on it's side. Genesis Project
Halkin Locus Solus	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:31:00 - [19] not everyone plays flavour of the month, it will be my turn again someday Originally by: Elise Randolph Everybody wins when trolls get trolled.
Napro Caldari Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:31:00 - [20] Edited by: Napro on 25/07/2008 22:31:42 Edited by: Napro on 25/07/2008 22:31:16 Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Edited by: Zephyr Rengate on 25/07/2008 22:19:54 Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 25/07/2008 21:58:50 Fail. So a cruiser out running missiles is balanced.Hmmmmmm Missiles able to hit everything balanced? Don't like it? Fit Defender Missiles. Can I outrun rails or lasers or drones? No.
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:36:00 - [21] Originally by: Napro Edited by: Napro on 25/07/2008 22:31:42 Edited by: Napro on 25/07/2008 22:31:16 Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Edited by: Zephyr Rengate on 25/07/2008 22:19:54 Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 25/07/2008 21:58:50 Fail. So a cruiser out running missiles is balanced.Hmmmmmm Missiles able to hit everything balanced? Don't like it? Fit Defender Missiles. Can I outrun rails or lasers or drones? No. Your unable to outrun drones? hahaha Unable to outrun the tracking of rails and lasers? L2p. Defenders are proven to not counter missiles well. Overall get a clue.
Napro Caldari Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:44:00 - [22] I stand corrected Cruisers are invincible
CHAOS100 Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:46:00 - [23] Good post IMO. You missed WCS though. Players such as above whine when their ship that they've flown forever can't kill the newest flavour while doing missions perma-passive shield tanking. A double nano-nerf is interesting. Since CCP said they want guerrilla warfare to be viable, what exactly are they planning to do that? The game will never be 'balanced'; the game is based on 4 non-identical races which each have their perks and downsides, but after the previous nerfs one race becomes superior due to their capabilities. It is basically a never-ending cycle of nerfs until CCP decides to simply reduce all ships to 1 identical class for every race. Example: 2006 area best (pvp) races: 1. Gallente 2. Minmatar 3. Caldari 4. Amarr Today: 1. Minmatar 2. Amarr 3. Caldari 4. Gallente Gallente still have decent BS though, not as good as they used to be though. --------------
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:49:00 - [24] Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 22:51:38 I've come up with 2 ways to exploit the new system. Assuming the changes come in exactly as the devs said them. 1) This one has been mentioned before and is not uber-poweful. Afterburning Assault frigates at close range. With the web changes it's as difficult to fight as modern interceptors, but much much more powerful. The only way to kill it is to overpower it with another frigate or gank it. This promotes the blob in addition to removing the solo-capible nanoships, which is bad. The only frigate that can overpower an AF is another AF. 2) This one I won't give away the exact details of. I'm keeping it for myself. It requies a bit of an investment, but it is possible to abuse the new system to amazing effect. If I am correct it will have all the advantages of a modern nanoship while being completely immune to everything nanos fear. With the decrease in modern nanoships it will have even less rivals to deal with. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
rValdez5987 Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:53:00 - [25] the OP is just mad that his vagabond cant run around like he just picked up the gold star in mario brothers.
Ozmodan Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:54:00 - [26] Not one of your so called nerfs have been bad for the game. Not one. When a cruiser outruns my interceptor, something is darn wrong. I am glad CCP realizes the problem and is addressing it appropriately. It was obvious to anyone that this was a serious issue that needed addressed. When you abuse any portion of a game, especially one that is available only to the select group, you can count on it,t hat things will get changed. Change does not always favor you, but whether it does or not you can always expect you will have to adapt. So I suggest you adapt intead of complaining. Learners permit still current
OVERCOPES 1 Amarr Amarr Secret Service	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:56:00 - [27] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 22:51:38 I've come up with 2 ways to exploit the new system. Assuming the changes come in exactly as the devs said them. 1) This one has been mentioned before and is not uber-poweful. Afterburning Assault frigates at close range. With the web changes it's as difficult to fight as modern interceptors, but much much more powerful. The only way to kill it is to overpower it with another frigate or gank it. This promotes the blob in addition to removing the solo-capible nanoships, which is bad. The only frigate that can overpower an AF is another AF. Well god dam,why didnt i think of that. I mean what next,using inteceptors to intercept other ships. Those guys at CCP sure are crazy fools Technolisa>those yellow things work better than platinum insurance :P
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:04:00 - [28] Of course, it's paper-scissor-rock. If you nerf paper, then play rock. You forgot omnitank btw. Fetchez la vache !
Zurrar Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:05:00 - [29] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 23:03:39 Originally by: Napro the difference is nano is a broken game mechanic never intended by the devs Jet can mining along with many others was never an intended mechanic either. You're not whining about that are you? These are just things that can be used to get the results a person is looking for. Also look at the "vagabond" and tell me with a strait face that it was never meant to nano. the speeds it reaches isnt meant to be. nano really wasnt that much of a problem till rigs... i hate rigs... i wish it was like the good old days. Originally by: Malcanis CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:06:00 - [30] Edited by: DubanFP on 25/07/2008 23:13:20 Originally by: Zurrar the speeds it reaches isnt meant to be. nano really wasnt that much of a problem till rigs... i hate rigs... i wish it was like the good old days. You've never seen a Nano Battleships of old have you lol. Anyways rigs add to nanoship speed, but they don't really push nanoships very much farther then they already were without them. Only thing it really changes is the dynamics between 2 nanoships which doesn't really matter in this sense anyways. Nanos may have some issues, but drastic changes like this will probebly open more holes then it fixes. Notice that the 2 people argueing have entirely different reasons for believing nanoships have issues. Lots of people say nanos need to be nerfed but few can agree on why, lol. You can ask 20 different people and get 20 different answers. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.

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