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techzer0 Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.07.26 18:50:00 - [61] I agree with Duban. This is a waste of my time to argue on the forums over it, as was training the 30mil SP in over-priced not well tanked cruiser class ships that only survive if they are fast. This isn't about nerfing a game mechanic, it's about wasting paying customers time. ------------ CCP > Let's play the nerf a race game! Next up minmatar!
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.26 18:52:00 - [62] Edited by: DubanFP on 26/07/2008 18:55:56 Originally by: Arlenna Molatov So, what you are saying is...every pilot should skirt the combat/physics engine then? So what will EVE become if every player flys a nano ship? You mean a game where EVERY single pilot flys the same setups and the same ships? ... because it is SUCH A BIG GAME BREAKING ISSUE! lol. Your post assumes that Nanos are better then non nanos in every single way. Had you ever even tried a nanoship you would know that they they would anything but replace other ships if they were more accepted. Nanos are extremely expensive, you lose 1/10th as many but they cost you 10 times as much, deal significantly less damage then their normal equivilent in terms of SP and isk, and have several major vulnerabillities which when exploited render a nanoship completely helpless. Had you actually had 1st hand experience with a nanoship you would know this. I can fly several minmitar nanoships, but often I find myself flying a hurricane instead just because of the cost involved in losing them. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you'd die very quickly if you ever flown one because you'd think you are invincible which is very far from the truth. Oh and trust me. When it does die you'll be down A LOT of isk. Try and, and you'll find nanos are anything but invincible. I guarentee it. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:05:00 - [63] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 26/07/2008 18:55:56 Originally by: Arlenna Molatov So, what you are saying is...every pilot should skirt the combat/physics engine then? So what will EVE become if every player flys a nano ship? You mean a game where EVERY single pilot flys the same setups and the same ships? ... because it is SUCH A BIG GAME BREAKING ISSUE! lol. Your post assumes that Nanos are better then non nanos in every single way. Had you ever even tried a nanoship you would know that they they would anything but replace other ships if they were more accepted. Nanos are extremely expensive, you lose 1/10th as many but they cost you 10 times as much, deal significantly less damage then their normal equivilent in terms of SP and isk, and have several major vulnerabillities which when exploited render a nanoship completely helpless. Had you actually had 1st hand experience with a nanoship you would know this. I can fly several minmitar nanoships, but often I find myself flying a hurricane instead just because of the cost involved in losing them. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you'd die very quickly if you ever flown one because you'd think you are invincible which is very far from the truth. Oh and trust me. When it does die you'll be down A LOT of isk. Try and, and you'll find nanos are anything but invincible. I guarentee it. And why do they cost a lot of ISK? Because the ships / implants / modules are highly sort after inflating their price. And why are they highly sort after? - Because once put together these ships / implants / modules create something that is difficult (agreed not entirely impossible) to kill. So the argument essentially is should wealth = (close to) invulnerability? The proposed changes are essentially shifting the balance away from fast ships to larger slower ships. Slave sets will be more valuable than Snakes for example. We'll have to wait and see if the balance shift has been too extreme in favour of the static gate camp (it probably is but its impossible to tell until the changes occur on TQ), or if elements of the 'fast gang' are still viable. C. Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
El ConejoBlanco	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:15:00 - [64] Nanoships are far from being close to invulnerable. It's simply how they are put to use. A rapier webbing a Maller and staying out of it's dmg range is "invulnerable" at that moment, yes. But against a curse it sure isn't. Simply put, there are enough counters out there that nerfing it isn't going to solve the problem, only make some other issue that will be nerfed in the future. If CCP MUST nerf it, then the layouts in the devblog are too extreme. It doesn't take testing and a degree in mathematics to look at the numbers and know that a nerf of this nature will hurt ALL nanos, and not just the Vagabond, which is the only ship anyone has pointed a finger at as being "invulnerable". If the shoe fits, where it, and all nano ships certainly don't have this size of shoe.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:16:00 - [65] Edited by: Splagada on 26/07/2008 19:16:11 damp ships might be back. its really underrated atm. Try it out with full skills, when damped i was missing a target in web range in optimal, with full BS skills. one good thing is my craptor bpo lost his C finally ! \o/ ------ Tides of Silence
Xol'tan dearg doom	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:17:00 - [66] So everyone will be in a RR BS blob soon and there will be cries to nerf remote repair mods, and the beat goes on.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:17:00 - [67] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Edited by: Zephyr Rengate on 26/07/2008 17:50:33 Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: El ConejoBlanco Good post. Was looking for a list of things that had been nerfed. Now it seems easier to get a list of things that haven't been nerfed. I just wish I had more of a heads up so I know not to waste my training time and ISK on something that isn't going to work in the future. A T2 fitted and rigged Vagabond that only does 4k(in a straight line) can be webbed by a 1600 plated rupture that can overheat. So what's the point of nano? Won't be any if you have to spend that kind of money on a pimp ship that loses to a T1 cruiser that costs a quarter less. Lo sec space will die, again, if this goes through. How do solo pvpers find targets now without getting caught by a FW blob? Seems like the so-called "sandbox" quality of the Eve playground is being replaced by a concrete one. a tech 2 fitted vaga will still go 4000m/s after the nerf. it won't go 12,000 m/s however. How would a t2 fitted vaga go 12000ms even now? (not includeding short burst of overload). eft for the win lets see. 3 nanofiber II's 2 overdrive II's 1 10MN MWD II 2 polycarbon rigs snake set 13,000m/s after nerf it will only go 8,000 m/s what will we do!!!!!!!!!
Rufus MacMaranth Gallente Shadow Front Tread Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:20:00 - [68] Originally by: El ConejoBlanco Edited by: El ConejoBlanco on 26/07/2008 18:04:22 If CCP was bringing us back to skirmish warfare, or leaving it a viable tactic, then they wouldn't be nerfing speed and shutting off propulsion mods. Can't disengage motoring off at ship speed. It's not a MINOR change. Bringing a billion isk investment down to the price of a T2 MWD is pretty sizable if you ask me. I wasn't saying that CCP should mirror real life physics at all. I was making a comparison between missile and damage types. All missiles shouldn't be able to hit all targets, and that's exactly what's going to happen if this nerf goes through as stated in the blog. Current game mechanics allow any nano to be countered. Period. You can catch and web or force a disengage. If you are out and get caught by that Vagabond then you deserve to die for not having the situational awareness to realize he was on scan. It takes pilot and trained skills to fly a nano properly, since it's a whole lot more than clicking orbit and going afk until your target is dead, and, it should take pilot and trained skills to catch one. If this nerf goes through the way the blog is laid out, nanos will be dead, because any pilot will be able to catch any nanocruiser in its orbit and pwnface, since with current mechanics any competent pilot that can overheat CAN catch any nanocruiser in its orbit and pwnface. Also there are a lot of posts about ships shouldn't be nanoed because they weren't designed for it, i.e. Ishtar. Please, then why give us fitting options with hundreds of mods?! Letting someone else dictate what I fit defeats the sandbox concept CCP so adamantly claims this game is. If I want to nano something, and train and pay for it, so be it, regardless of what it gets bonuses to. Edit: Cleaned up some language. I think the point you are missing here is that a cruiser should not be able to outrun the explosion velocity of light missiles, ever, no matter how much ISK you spend. ISK should make you better, but not invulnerable to everything. I can happily cope with a cruiser ( a very expensive one) outrunning heavy missiles and taking less damage, but not lights. Even T1 lights.
Raather	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:22:00 - [69] Quote: well lets see lets get my vaga 3 nanofiber II's 2 overdrive II's 1 10MN MWD II 2 polycarbon rigs snake set -don't have but I can use eft here 13,000m/s after nerf it will only go 8,000 m/s what will we do!!!!!!!!! didn't count overheating or boosters. comeon you really think that speed is ok? p.s. without ****ing the snake set the new speed for the vaga with the same mods will be able to do about 4,500m/s simple tech 2 rig fitted. why can't you deal with only going that fast? Full snake set and 5 speed mods, 'cause thats how everyone fits their Vagas.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:28:00 - [70] Edited by: DubanFP on 26/07/2008 19:30:48 Originally by: MotherMoon well lets see lets get my vaga 3 nanofiber II's 2 overdrive II's 1 10MN MWD II 2 polycarbon rigs snake set -don't have but I can use eft here 13,000m/s and 2 heavy nuets or a huginn will make your multi-billion isk ship it go 500 m/s without a tank. Remember tracking hurts the nanoship too you know. Name me a vagabond that can hit anything at that speed. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Father Weebles North Face Force	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:29:00 - [71] Originally by: kryptteacher forgive me as im still noob at only 2 mill skill points on my main but here is my 2 isk. just make it where only frigate class vessels can use speed This is a good way to completely nerf vagabonds. "You leave anything for us?" "Just bodies."
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:35:00 - [72] Originally by: Raather Quote: well lets see lets get my vaga 3 nanofiber II's 2 overdrive II's 1 10MN MWD II 2 polycarbon rigs snake set -don't have but I can use eft here 13,000m/s after nerf it will only go 8,000 m/s what will we do!!!!!!!!! didn't count overheating or boosters. comeon you really think that speed is ok? p.s. without **ing the snake set the new speed for the vaga with the same mods will be able to do about 4,500m/s simple tech 2 rig fitted. why can't you deal with only going that fast? Full snake set and 5 speed mods, 'cause thats how everyone fits their Vagas. ok I'll shoot without snakes it's only 8,000 m/s with leadership bonuses that becomes 11,000m/s and wait didn't you read my post or the blog the nerf is to super high speed while keeping normal tech 2 speed. Also to the nuet guy you'll never be locked, you can just fly out of locking range never mind nuet range in 10 seconds. by the way yes vagas do fit 5 speed mods, duh, that's what makes it an issue. ok I did some more stuff with the leadership bonus the old vaga with snakes goes 14,900 and then with a boost goes 17,000 and with overheating hits 19,000 and wait wtf you asked me how a vaga can go that fast I told you just like you asked, don't *** at me for giving you the answer to your question. last note before I ignore the forums for today. even if you neut that ship it will drift about 100 km at 10,000m/s because the mass of the ship is so low it won't stop for a good 45 seconds, that's how broken it is. the physics engine doesn't like it. so great it has no cap, oh wait now it's at 10% oh look it can MWD forever while gaining cap at 10% cap, so it just keeps going even if neuted 100%
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:36:00 - [73] Originally by: Father Weebles Originally by: kryptteacher forgive me as im still noob at only 2 mill skill points on my main but here is my 2 isk. just make it where only frigate class vessels can use speed This is a good way to completely nerf vagabonds. vaga after nerf with no snake set and simple tech 2 will still be to outrun drones and missles. they just won't break the engine. or is going 4,500 to slow for you? with snakes and everything they will still go about 11,000 after the nerf, in fact I'll bet 200million isk people whine about speed 4 months after this nerf goes through.
Jennifer Celeste	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:40:00 - [74] Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 25/07/2008 21:58:50 Fail. So a cruiser out running missiles is balanced.Hmmmmmm please dont feed the trolls...this guys a ****** through and through.
El ConejoBlanco	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:46:00 - [75] Originally by: DubanFP and 2 heavy nuets or a huginn will make your multi-billion isk ship it go 500 m/s without a tank. Remember tracking hurts the nanoship too you know. Name me a vagabond that can hit anything at that speed. Thank you! To further summarize, missile boats simply F1-F8 and hit the shield booster while nanos have to factor in speed, distance, radial, transversal, all to mitigate incoming damage while being able to keep enough damage on target to be effective. You can't hit anything doing 6k, and anything going that speed can't hit you either, meaning it's already balanced, and there is no need for a nerf.
Raather	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:47:00 - [76] Edited by: Raather on 26/07/2008 19:51:19 Edited by: Raather on 26/07/2008 19:50:48 Edited by: Raather on 26/07/2008 19:49:19 Quote: ok I'll shoot without snakes it's only 8,000 m/s with leadership bonuses that becomes 11,000m/s and wait didn't you read my post or the blog the nerf is to super high speed while keeping normal tech 2 speed. Also to the nuet guy you'll never be locked, you can just fly out of locking range never mind nuet range in 10 seconds. by the way yes vagas do fit 5 speed mods, duh, that's what makes it an issue. ok I did some more stuff with the leadership bonus the old vaga with snakes goes 14,900 and then with a boost goes 17,000 and with overheating hits 19,000 yes, the vaga can't hit anything, that's not the point the point is people can go that fast ** people off and make the game engine go into pain. just think of all the lag it causes. last note before I ignore the forums for today. even if you neut that ship it will drift about 100 km at 10,000m/s because the mass of the ship is so low it won't stop for a good 45 seconds, that's how broken it is. the physics engine doesn't like it. so great it has no cap, oh wait now it's at 10% oh look it can MWD forever while gaining cap at 10% cap, so it just keeps going even if neuted 100% Firstly its not 8km/s it's 6754m/s with max skills. Secondly, the standard Vaga fit has 2 or 3 gyro stabilizers. Good luck killing anything with your 5 speed mod fit. Thirdly: "yes, the vaga can't hit anything, that's not the point the point is people can go that fast ** people off and make the game engine go into pain. just think of all the lag it causes." You are a moron. Edit: woops I actually improved your fit, the one you propose everyone flies only goes 6137m/s.
techzer0 Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.07.26 19:53:00 - [77] [ Originally by: MotherMoon well lets see lets get my vaga 3 nanofiber II's 2 overdrive II's 1 10MN MWD II 2 polycarbon rigs snake set -don't have but I can use eft here 13,000m/s You will never kill anything solo with that setup MM. I fit this: 2 or 3 Overdrive II's 2 or 3 Gyrostab II's 10mn MWD II 2 Polycarbons (or poly/aux thrusters if i'm broke) A few rogue hardwiring implants. 5500 - 6100m/s Optimal of 2km so fighting at 15-20k my damage is halved due to falloff. And I could never perma-run the MWD or hit anything while MWD'ing full speed. (btw, you should realize my fit is about average for a vaga pilot.) ------------ CCP > Let's play the nerf a race game! Next up minmatar!
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.07.26 20:28:00 - [78] I fully agree with the op.
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.07.26 20:29:00 - [79] Originally by: techzer0 [ Originally by: MotherMoon well lets see lets get my vaga 3 nanofiber II's 2 overdrive II's 1 10MN MWD II 2 polycarbon rigs snake set -don't have but I can use eft here 13,000m/s You will never kill anything solo with that setup MM. I fit this: 2 or 3 Overdrive II's 2 or 3 Gyrostab II's 10mn MWD II 2 Polycarbons (or poly/aux thrusters if i'm broke) A few rogue hardwiring implants. 5500 - 6100m/s Optimal of 2km so fighting at 15-20k my damage is halved due to falloff. And I could never perma-run the MWD or hit anything while MWD'ing full speed. (btw, you should realize my fit is about average for a vaga pilot.) ----------------------------------------------------------- double post Most definantely is average for a Vagabond indeed.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.07.26 20:43:00 - [80] well I may be a moron by that's why CCP is doing it becuase you can break it thus it must be fixed. if you don't think hitting 20,000m/s is bad for this game then keep on playing pretending it's not an issue.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.07.26 20:46:00 - [81] Originally by: techzer0 [ Originally by: MotherMoon well lets see lets get my vaga 3 nanofiber II's 2 overdrive II's 1 10MN MWD II 2 polycarbon rigs snake set -don't have but I can use eft here 13,000m/s You will never kill anything solo with that setup MM. I fit this: 2 or 3 Overdrive II's 2 or 3 Gyrostab II's 10mn MWD II 2 Polycarbons (or poly/aux thrusters if i'm broke) A few rogue hardwiring implants. 5500 - 6100m/s Optimal of 2km so fighting at 15-20k my damage is halved due to falloff. And I could never perma-run the MWD or hit anything while MWD'ing full speed. (btw, you should realize my fit is about average for a vaga pilot.) oh yes I know you won't kill anything but I don't think the changes are really killing the vagas speed set up, it's just killing the max speed which people do fit for fun or FW. You see part what is going on is due to the changes coming to allaince warfare in which it will be timer based like FW is but based on stargates. read up on it in the GameDisscussion forum. If they allow for ships to go 20,000 then it will be broken as all you'll need is a super nano that is orbiting each station. Now once again I think your overestimating the speed hit you'll take in your vaga. you'll still be super fast and in fact harder to kill if webbed. ignore the MWD change but you shouldn't get hat close anyways. I don't know I just think people are over reacting without testing it 1st.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.27 00:37:00 - [82] Edited by: DubanFP on 27/07/2008 00:46:27 Originally by: MotherMoon well I may be a moron by that's why CCP is doing it becuase you can break it thus it must be fixed. if you don't think hitting 20,000m/s is bad for this game then keep on playing pretending it's not an issue. The only people who think nanos are completely broken are the ones who don't know what it's like to fly one. Just because YOU don't know how to kill one doesn't make it invincible. I can't seem to find a single person who says nanos are invincible that's actually flown one before. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Nexus Kinnon SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.27 00:49:00 - [83] Mothermoon, you have no ****ing clue how to fit or fight nano ships, stop commenting on them.
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.07.27 00:50:00 - [84] Yer I used to respect Mothermoon a bit now ive lost all respect for her due to the crap she has posted here.
Marlorn Aeon Caldari Lone Starr Corporation	Posted - 2008.07.27 01:32:00 - [85] i guess it's easier for ppl to call nerf rather than adapt. NANO SHIPS ARE FAR FROM IMMORTAL!!! One slightest mistake and you'll pay dearly for it... They arent cheap you know. Buttloads of time and isk is required to even fly one, and even then, it's more dangerous than flying around in a battleship 1/3 the cost.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.07.27 01:39:00 - [86] Since this is part of the "nano" thing: Here... this should suss all the screaming and yelling: Vote, according to your opinion: ALL AGAINST THE "NANO" NERF ALL FOR THE "NANO" NERF
Andrea Skye Caldari The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:13:00 - [87] Edited by: Andrea Skye on 27/07/2008 02:13:46 I'm not usauly one to whine, but nanos were overpowered. They WAS op (well atm they still are.. but anyways..), fact, and good players will admit that. Watching cruisers outrun my inty was more than annoying, i once saw a sliepner doing 9000m/s, how is that not overpowered? My missiles going slower than a battlecruiser? I do however think that the recent changes arent the right way to fix it. I think nanofibres should remove a Set amount of mass from a ship, so they would be just as effective for frigates, but worse on bigger ships. Whatever happens tho, ill still play eve, its a great game, and im having alot of fun playing it atm.
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:21:00 - [88] Ive seen high speed missiles go slower than a battleship, if the ship doing this had missile launchers and extremly long locking ranges wed get calvary ships again. New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister
Lt Angus Caldari Lt Angus Corp	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:56:00 - [89] vaga can still go 9000 after nerf so the whiners wont stop now add the 50% webs to that and the pimped vagas are safer then ever Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.27 03:23:00 - [90] First off, I never had issues with nanoships. Claiming they mitigate all damage at 6-7km/s is a total lie: they mitigate (virtually) all drone/missile damage. They don't mitigate all turret damage at that speed (from medium turrets; BS are not supposed to hit cruisers well and only do so thanks to horribly hax 90% webs which are fortunately going to get thrashed now). And when webbed, they die and die horribly. Outrunning missiles/drones is due to the binary way missiles/drones work; they've got a set speed and you're either slower and getting pounded or faster and completely safe (unlike turrets). Secondly, everyone who claims nanoships outrun their interceptors fails at interceptor fitting. Yes, they did outrun plain T2 fit unrigged interceptors when you used a polycarbon-fit snaked Vagabond, but when you invest the same sort of ISK, interceptors are way faster. Thirdly, I don't mind the changes (and I love the addition of 9km scramblers shutting off MWD and the web nerf, good riddance to the single most overpowered module in EvE). They provide a host of new options, and webrange doesn't mean automatic death vs something larger then you. This is a big buff to smaller ships attacking bigger ships. However, I do see the issues with 0.0 roaming after this (low-sec roaming is going to be fine, no bubbles and now smaller ships work better, total win). And yeah, good players will adapt, bad players will keep dying. That's how it always was. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

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