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Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.10 04:42:00 - [151] I'm just laughing at the dogpile of whiners who have no idea what they're talking about. Most, possibly all, of them have probably never flown or fit a real nano ship. The big loser is Eve Online, that these people can whine and get their way, and gameplay is made less interesting as a result.
Kransthow Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.10 06:37:00 - [152] Caldari FW players itt
TZeer Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.10 07:06:00 - [153] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Edited by: Zephyr Rengate on 25/07/2008 22:19:54 Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 25/07/2008 21:58:50 Fail. So a cruiser out running missiles is balanced.Hmmmmmm Missiles able to hit everything balanced? Heard about explotion velocity and explosion radius? Guns hit all the time to, same as missiles, but you get something like: "guns barely hit target, doing 1 damage" "cruise missile hit x target, doing 0.3 damage" same with heavy missiles, torps, HAMS etc
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.10.10 08:20:00 - [154] Originally by: Synapse Archae I'm just laughing at the dogpile of whiners who have no idea what they're talking about. Most, possibly all, of them have probably never flown or fit a real nano ship. The big loser is Eve Online, that these people can whine and get their way, and gameplay is made less interesting as a result. Yet the posts that stand out the most are ones like yours that just call others names, offer nothing constructive at all to the thread and amount to crying "DOOM". I'm sure you can do better than that. Scratch that. You probably can't. Originally by: Thargat A nanogang vs a regular gang, if the regular gang isn't complete morons (wich usually seems to be the case these days), is a fair and balanced fight. It all boils down to tactics and thinking a bit outside of the box. Some ppl know this, the rest just whine. So basically, you're saying that nanos can't beat a gang of players that are one notch above *****ed. And that's why so many people fly them. And spend "billions" to fit them out. You know I've heard this before. That nanos are so incredibly easy to counter* that people are crawling over eachother to get at these faction MWDs and implants to pimp out their new nano-HAC. I mea, god, who wouldn't want to throw away a few bil for no good reason? Or maybe you're not telling the whole story. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Doxs Roxs Free Collective Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.10.10 09:06:00 - [155] Originally by: KhaelaMensha Khaine Edited by: KhaelaMensha Khaine on 10/10/2008 02:35:59 (Continued from previous post) In summary, nanoships provided a counter to being 'blobbed to death' thereby restoring the ability to roam in small gangs and perform guerilla style 'hit and run' pvp Which brings us to the central issue concerning the proposed speed changes... ANY PROPOSED NERFS TO NANOSHIPS MUST NOT KILL OFF ROAMING. If this happens then an important, fun, part of EvE which keeps a lot of older, more experienced players interested in the game will be lost. Don't forget that eventually, every new player will become one of these older, richer, veterans so while you might not care about this right now, you will one day, if you stick with the game long enough. CCP NEEDS TO FIND THE RIGHT BALANCE BETWEEN FIXING THINGS IN THE GAME WHICH ARE CLEARLY BROKEN WITHOUT KILLING OFF THOSE THINGS WHICH MAKE THE GAME CHALLENGING AND FUN. Anyone who has participated in a 0.0 fleet fight in the last few years knows exactly what I mean when I say that the 0.0 space holding game has been "broken" for some time and is in bad need of a fix. God forbid that the same thing happens to roaming! Spot on! This is exactly what I feel! Regards /Doxs After 9 months of being a "!" face, I now discover that Im butt ugly instead...
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.10 10:16:00 - [156] Originally by: TZeer Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Edited by: Zephyr Rengate on 25/07/2008 22:19:54 Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 25/07/2008 21:58:50 Fail. So a cruiser out running missiles is balanced.Hmmmmmm Missiles able to hit everything balanced? Heard about explotion velocity and explosion radius? Guns hit all the time to, same as missiles, but you get something like: "guns barely hit target, doing 1 damage" "cruise missile hit x target, doing 0.3 damage" same with heavy missiles, torps, HAMS etc The difference is ofcourse that you need to fly at a very high speed before you see any reduction in damage from missiles. Its a very on/off type of damage. And thats the problem with missiles really. If you nerf speed like its proposed, missiles will be incredibly overpowered compared to turrets. And thats why missiles will be nerfed too.
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.10 13:29:00 - [157] Edited by: DubanFP on 10/10/2008 13:29:26 Originally by: KhaelaMensha Khaine In summary, nanoships provided a counter to being 'blobbed to death' thereby restoring the ability to roam in small gangs and perform guerilla style 'hit and run' pvp Agreed
Crackzilla The Shadow Order	Posted - 2008.10.10 18:16:00 - [158] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 10/10/2008 13:29:26 Originally by: KhaelaMensha Khaine In summary, nanoships provided a counter to being 'blobbed to death' thereby restoring the ability to roam in small gangs and perform guerilla style 'hit and run' pvp Agreed The problem is that the best counter to nanos are more nanos. So now you're 'blobbed to death' with nano fleets. Now what do you do? Guerilla warfare works by hit and run. If you're dealing with a blob then it isn't guerilla warfare or you've over stayed your welcome. Further, we know something is wrong when ships designed for guerilla style warfare are ignored and laughed at. No one takes black ops, stealth bombers etc seriously as speed is that much better. Recons have a few neat tricks which makes them useful not for scouting as much as for support. They may as well be classified as cloaking logistics. Nanos provided no counter to blobs. Nanos increased blobs. Their imbalance allowed a situation to be exploited. This exploit is resolved by either changing the game balance or with everyone flying nanos.
Feilamya Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.10 18:24:00 - [159] Originally by: justsometrader much text much whine much fail what he said, except most of the whine and fail here comes not from the op but by a crowd of spineless alt posters.
Reaver One Perkone	Posted - 2008.10.11 04:28:00 - [160] My wife thinks that manchowder has some amazing medicinal quality. This is good because she lets me shoot in her hair. This is bad, because she leaves it in overnight and the whole room smells...spunky. What's the moral of this story, you ask? It may stink for a while, but it'll be healthy in the long run.
Cybele Lanier Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.11 10:37:00 - [161] With nanoships apparently doing no damage and being so easy to counter, it makes you wonder exactly why they're so popular and why people are prepared to spend so much on them. --------------- ""Minimum collateral damage" and "Entire star system" do not belong in the same sentence."
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.11 12:53:00 - [162] Originally by: Cybele Lanier With nanoships apparently doing no damage and being so easy to counter, it makes you wonder exactly why they're so popular and why people are prepared to spend so much on them. Because nobody seems to know how to counter them and instead whine about it. Even if people did it's still a lot safer then risking a few hundred mil on a much more powerful death trap. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Xeronn Amarr Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.11 14:25:00 - [163] Originally by: KhaelaMensha Khaine Edited by: KhaelaMensha Khaine on 10/10/2008 02:35:59 (Continued from previous post) In summary, nanoships provided a counter to being 'blobbed to death' thereby restoring the ability to roam in small gangs and perform guerilla style 'hit and run' pvp Which brings us to the central issue concerning the proposed speed changes... ANY PROPOSED NERFS TO NANOSHIPS MUST NOT KILL OFF ROAMING. If this happens then an important, fun, part of EvE which keeps a lot of older, more experienced players interested in the game will be lost. Don't forget that eventually, every new player will become one of these older, richer, veterans so while you might not care about this right now, you will one day, if you stick with the game long enough. CCP NEEDS TO FIND THE RIGHT BALANCE BETWEEN FIXING THINGS IN THE GAME WHICH ARE CLEARLY BROKEN WITHOUT KILLING OFF THOSE THINGS WHICH MAKE THE GAME CHALLENGING AND FUN. Anyone who has participated in a 0.0 fleet fight in the last few years knows exactly what I mean when I say that the 0.0 space holding game has been "broken" for some time and is in bad need of a fix. God forbid that the same thing happens to roaming! /agreed with the basic ideeas of your post, still, if you bring ships with enough firepower to cause damage and DO jump into a blob, there should be at least a 50-50 chanche you don`t make it out of it. In my experience, nanos will ussualy escape any non-nano blob if they chose to run instead of engage IMHO the issue isnt about missilez, transversals,drones, the big picture is about the mechanics behind forcing engagements and/or disengaging . I don`t claim to know what a "good" balance would be , but imho , when a certain type of fit/style can allways decide the engagement and/or disengagement things need adjusted just my .02 isk
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.10.11 14:35:00 - [164] Remove pvp! It is to blame for all of these nerfs!
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.11 18:36:00 - [165] Originally by: Xeronn IMHO the issue isnt about missilez, transversals,drones, the big picture is about the mechanics behind forcing engagements and/or disengaging . I don`t claim to know what a "good" balance would be , but imho , when a certain type of fit/style can allways decide the engagement and/or disengagement things need adjusted just my .02 isk This is a very good post although it's difficult to figure out your opinion on the sugested nano nerfs. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order	Posted - 2008.10.11 19:07:00 - [166] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Xeronn IMHO the issue isnt about missilez, transversals,drones, the big picture is about the mechanics behind forcing engagements and/or disengaging . I don`t claim to know what a "good" balance would be , but imho , when a certain type of fit/style can allways decide the engagement and/or disengagement things need adjusted just my .02 isk This is a very good post although it's difficult to figure out your opinion on the sugested nano nerfs. No need to be for or against the nano nerf. It is an acute observation that the root cause for nanos is the differing requirements for engagement. A nano only needs to maintain tackle and can do so at 24km. A non nano usually needs a web to be effective against a nano and that is only effective at 10km. That 14km distance drives the need for nanos. Rather then change nanos much one concept has been to change the need for distance in engagements. Use scripts on warp disrupters that vary distance with effectiveness. So a 24km disrupter might be effective 75% of the time with a 15 sec cycle (range script). So a tackler will be usually effective. Otherwise if a short range disrupter script is used then it would be 90% at 7.5km or something. This would merge the concept of scrams with disrupters. It would give a chance for slow ships to escape a tackle. Currently I can't think of anything more guaranteed than a point. You usually only need 1x of them, they're effective at long range, and they always work. If distance/effectiveness needs to be weighed then it makes sense possibly to use 2x points to increase chances. The flip side would be scripts for webs. 20km web at 35%. Use a script for 10km at 50%. This would probably allow nanos to remain mostly as they are (excepting a nerf on the high end stuff). It might encourage pvp as folks have a better chance of shooting something and getting away.
Van Steiza Eternal Perseverance	Posted - 2008.10.12 00:29:00 - [167] I can Kill ANY Nanoship In my Hurricane with t2 autocanons or rupture with t2 autocanons. Its just as easy for someone in a harbinger. To be honest people just dont know how to fly there ships properly if an interceptor cant go faster then a t2 hac /cruiser its probably because that ceptor is not fully speed fit or that that cruiser is simply pimped to hell and back.. Gosh.. ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.12 01:09:00 - [168] i dont get why your guys are arguing, it going on like nano have been here forever, it sound like the only way to PVP is with nano's what did people do before they discovered they could make there cruiser go a bergillion KM a second i am neither for or against nano but people need to stop talking like it is the end of PVP because they are getting nerfed. there was pvp before this happened you know My new blog here
Lexx Phoebus Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.12 01:45:00 - [169] I couldn't care less what CCP do, i just do not want to see 0.0 roaming broken beyond repair and blob warefare encouraged; i have no problem putting my faith in the devs so long as in a years time from now i can still be having the same modi****of fun in 0.0 on a gurilla type roam - becuase at the end of the day, that's one of the funnest things in eve to do.
Lexx Phoebus Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.12 01:48:00 - [170] Originally by: Armoured C i dont get why your guys are arguing, it going on like nano have been here forever, it sound like the only way to PVP is with nano's what did people do before they discovered they could make there cruiser go a bergillion KM a second i am neither for or against nano but people need to stop talking like it is the end of PVP because they are getting nerfed. there was pvp before this happened you know Your right there was pvp before nanos, but nanos evolved as a neccesity rather than a preference becuase of the previlence of blob warefare; thus you now NEED the mobility of nanos to roam effectively outnumbered.
Saracena Minmatar Infinatech	Posted - 2008.10.12 04:59:00 - [171] I honestly believe the op has a point. One of the things I detest about MMO's is the difficulty with balance and the endless *****/nerf cycle. It's especially depressing with eve where you have to invest time and isk into something that probably will not have the same performance for more than six months. Even nano's, which I don't fly, don't really deserve the nerf that they're getting. It's purely shortsighted of development not to see that they will add more problems than they will 'fix' by radical game mechanics changes. Small, well thought out tweaks to existing design are the way to go if you truly want to achieve balance. And buffing things that are purely underpowered sure wouldn't hurt either. Don't like Minmatar space? Put yourself on the contact list for hisec hidden asteroid belt bookmarks [currently operating in: Kador, Derelik, Domain] 2.5 per small 4.5 per medium 6.5 per large
Eternum Praetorian Tupperware Party	Posted - 2008.10.12 05:07:00 - [172] When I listened to the dev blog one thing stuck out in my mind MORE then any other. Simply that CCP was animate about how every fit, every situation, needed speed and MWD. They don't seem to like (deep breath) LACK OF DIVERSITY IN THEIR GAME. Now they don't always get it right, and they may screw things up in the process. But in the end if players become monochromatic, CCP will nerf it in order to make a game that has many facets and depths. There is supposed to be no sure win button in EVE. When we find one, they will "fix it" and force us to adapt to there view of what Eve should be like.
Anna Devika	Posted - 2008.10.12 05:17:00 - [173] Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: El ConejoBlanco Speedtanking missiles is currently the only way to tank missiles. Take away speed, missiles become invincible. Just because a frig with a reduced sig takes reduced damage from a heavy missile, doesn't mean that it's just brushing off the damage. Never seen anything outrun a precision. If it did, buff the precision, don't nerfbat everyone else. And there you have it. Did you even read the dev blog about this issue? Here, I will quote a bit of it for you... Originally by: Dev Blog If one then takes a look at the max velocity on missiles and drones, it is readily apparent that our combat system was never designed for such speeds. Even when we did some basic tests on our internal servers, with special high-speed missiles, we quickly noticed Destiny (our physics engine) behaving very strangely. Good call. Nerf something to fix something because your nerfed something. You're Caldari? You wanted to PvP? ** off; go back to ISK farming. And this character doesn't even USE missiles - yet I am not ****ed; instead I am open minded and can see the big picture.
Xeronn Amarr Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.12 11:09:00 - [174] IMHO the issue is much deeper then nano or nos or missiles or drones Or maybe all the factors above, + jumpbridges, warp to 0, logon traps, cynos, chockepoints and moar It`s the way combat goes , and more specificaly how engagements and disengagements are forced, and how reinforcements are able to enter the fight . Blobs some say, i hate the blob vs leets arguments just as much as i hate the missile vs nano ones. If you HAVE the manpower you WILL field it, to say otherwise it`s a lie . remember? no honor fights or arenas in eve So where does that leave the game? I can agree there MUST be ways to efectively decide the terms of engagement if you are in the offensive in the smaller blob, but when one style of play allows for 100% ability to decide those terms something is broken, and it only brings more blobing as a response (or the same playstyle for everyone...bring moar nanos) So does that leave eve with numbers advantage vs the ability to bugger off if those numbers actually get to you? If this is the case, nano nerfs wont fix this . Thing is EVERYONE wants fights on there own terms, and imho the ability to decide those terms is THE thing in eve. So someone asked mewhere i stand : personaly i dont like nanos but I don`t like "nerfes" slaped around without taking a look at the big picture either .
Demitria Fernir Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.12 11:20:00 - [175] -----5 months later----- Next FoM: Titans. Everybody seems to have one and 20 to 50 DDD are launched every day. Whine incomes. Nerfed: Jump portals now consumes more fuel, DDD Now makes Titan vulnerable to EW for the first half of the DDD delay time, DDD delay time +50%. --experienced players look for the new power in EVE-- _______________________________________________ 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.10.12 12:05:00 - [176] It seems like a logical falacy to me to say change X will lead to more blobbing when blobbing has independent factors contributing to it. Primarily that of player population or density within an area. Put a large amount of players in a certain area and the likelyhood of large blobs forming increases in nearly a linear fashion. This doesn't depend on nanos or ecm or any of the current debated topics. It relies only on the fact that higher numbers = higher chance of win. And even without that, the more players in an area the more likely to get a larger response to "x up" and therefore a blob whether your intention were such or not. So it seems more logical to assume that blobs are going to exist regardless, and as player population increase will only get more common. So that leaves only one question to be answered, "Should higher numbers always guarantee success?" I believe that everyone involved including CCP would answer, "of course not". Numbers always determining success is not a design for fun. And this being a game, fun should be of primary concern and the main point driving design choices. And if any proof is needed, there are numerous examples of smaller forces winning against larger with current game mechanics. So given that you can not argue that nano soley has lead to more blobbing but you can make a logical case for it being a method for maintaining a level of fun regardless of blob factor, it seems rather odd that CCP would chose a direction that nerfs fun regardless of the obvious scaleability issues with player populations. The primary proof of this was their response in the live dev blog when asked about MWD'ing back to a gate when in a bubble. Their response seemed to indicate that the ability to do such was something they considered broke. They also associated black ops with guerilla warfare. So I can only conclude the following: - CCP has to be aware of the blob factor - Of course they are wishing to maintain a fun game - What they envision for the future is a step or two from what we have now thereby making it difficult for us to imagine - They are failing to communicate that vision to us sufficiently so that we can get on board with it and give meaningful input - They are staying on track with their design direction regardless of the mega-threads that have formed due to it CCP once again falling down in the communication department Us arguing over points that don't line up with their end vision and therefore wasting our time Conclusion: All our debates about the meta-game are pointless until CCP starts communicating better. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Dr Paithos Minmatar Republic Deep Space Institute	Posted - 2008.10.12 12:18:00 - [177] lol minmatard whining in this thread so many salty tears now u won't b able to escape our missiles u go crying ccp now see what its like to be on other side
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.12 12:31:00 - [178] Originally by: Lexx Phoebus Originally by: Armoured C i dont get why your guys are arguing, it going on like nano have been here forever, it sound like the only way to PVP is with nano's what did people do before they discovered they could make there cruiser go a bergillion KM a second i am neither for or against nano but people need to stop talking like it is the end of PVP because they are getting nerfed. there was pvp before this happened you know Your right there was pvp before nanos, but nanos evolved as a neccesity rather than a preference becuase of the previlence of blob warefare; thus you now NEED the mobility of nanos to roam effectively outnumbered. i forgot about the blob My new blog here
Lexx Phoebus Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.12 15:04:00 - [179] Originally by: Armoured C Originally by: Lexx Phoebus Originally by: Armoured C i dont get why your guys are arguing, it going on like nano have been here forever, it sound like the only way to PVP is with nano's what did people do before they discovered they could make there cruiser go a bergillion KM a second i am neither for or against nano but people need to stop talking like it is the end of PVP because they are getting nerfed. there was pvp before this happened you know Your right there was pvp before nanos, but nanos evolved as a neccesity rather than a preference becuase of the previlence of blob warefare; thus you now NEED the mobility of nanos to roam effectively outnumbered. i forgot about the blob Now i am damn glad we can agree on something, this should set a precident guys CCP take note and don't go through with this.
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.10.12 17:03:00 - [180] Originally by: OVERCOPES 1 Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 25/07/2008 21:58:50 Fail. So a cruiser out running missiles is balanced.Hmmmmmm ????? Which cruiser are you talking about????? Triple poly carbed stabbers? Ships DESIGNED to avoid fire by nano'ing??? There aren't many t1 cruisers that can out run every missile. (SEE: stabber) OP is 100% correct.

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