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Desert Viper
StoneFist Pilots
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Posted - 2008.07.29 04:13:00 -
[1]
we recently got war dec'd by a 1 man corporation, obviously an alt CEO, the main character would remain out of the warring corporation until the moment he had one of us cornered, then would immediately log on the ceo, accept the app, and the guy would instantly be at war with us, attack his intended target, then immediately dock, and leave the corporation once the fight was over, in doing so, completely evading the aspect of being at war, where both sides can engage each other freely.
i petitioned it, and recieved the answer that joining and leaving the corporation is not against policy, i fully understand this. i have no issues with people wanting to join in on the action, and joining the corporation, or getting fed up with war and leaving the corporation, one or the other, but joining and leaving the corporation specificaly as a tactic against the enemy, so that the warring targets were completely unable to engage you except when you wanted, i find this to be a exploit.
this is on the same lines as other tactics already named exploits, engaging a player with black ops and jumping out to avoid concord, killing someone and managing to survive concord, as well as ejecting from a ship while a non-combatant boards resulting in the engager to be concorded, all are already exploits. and im sure there are more on the same lines i dont know about. all these tactics named exploits use the same functions, using legitamate game mechanics to avoid other rules and consequences of the game. its not illegal to eject or board a ship, its not illegal to jump systems, its not illegal to dock or cloak, yet these same legitamate rules, when used in a different way, are exploits. its not illegal to join, or leave a corporation i understand that, but when joining, and leaving a corporation for the specific intentions of avoiding war targets until your own choosing, i find is an exploiting tactic, and i ask that it be officialy made a exploit, or rules implemented to help prevent or aleviate such tactics.
let me reiterate, i have no problems with combat, war, and the likes. i would fully support a full war with a person. but the tactic of joining and leaving a warring corporation specificaly as a tactic against the enemy corporation, i find discraceful, and on the lines of a exploit.
one simple way to help eleviate this would be to include a timer in joining a corporation. much like it is if you have roles within a corporation, once joined, roles or not, you would not be able to leave the corporation for 24 hours, the standard waiting period for many things. to add a further penalty to this, a rule could be implemented so that a player leaving a player corporation could not join another player corporation for 24 hours (note, moving straight from one player corp to another is not effected, except to not be able to leave for 24 hours). although one could simply log off and wait the 24 hours, it would remove the ability to instantly join a corp, engage the target, and instantly leave the corp thereby being no longer at war with the corporation, and avoiding the standard rules of being at war.
to sum things up, the current ability to hunt people as a neutral, join a warring corporation at your own will, engage the target, and instantly leave the warring corporation and be instantly non-hostile, i feel is a exploiting tactic, using common and legitamate rules to navigate around other rules and penalties of the game.
i ask that rules are implemented to prevent such tactics from being used, and / or this tactic be named a exploit.
thanks for the time.
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Alone i am only a man, but together, we are a force unstopable |
Captain Narmio
Baptism oF Fire
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.07.29 05:11:00 -
[2]
Yep, this is just dumb. 24h joining or leaving delay could be added to corporations/alliances that are at war? Call it "Concord paperwork holdups".
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Michal Kaczev
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Posted - 2008.07.29 05:26:00 -
[3]
Totally agree with Desert Viper. Warring corporations should have something that prevents the same players hoping back and fourth. It seems like it is a way of avoiding combat as well as killing and then avoiding combat. This should definatly be looked into and should be called an exploit. A timer for players join and leaving corps should be instituted. It would make a totally better gaming experiance and prevent players from doing such things.
Also another scenario is that the particular person who is leaving or getting kicked out of the warring corporation gets engaged by the enemy corp in high security space. Now this person decided to leave the corp that is at war at the exact time he is getting engaged. Suddenly the enemy corp members are engaging a neutral becuase perhaps he got kicked from the corp or accepted a ready application to another one. This means they get concorded... now you tell me if thats fair.
CCP needs to look into this.
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Desert Viper
StoneFist Pilots
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Posted - 2008.07.29 05:31:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Desert Viper on 29/07/2008 05:34:10
1) cant leave (or even be kicked) a corporation while in space (however a application can currently be accepted while player is in space, one of the key parts to this tactic)
2) once engaged, 15 minute agression timer against those that engaged him
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Alone i am only a man, but together, we are a force unstopable |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.07.29 06:29:00 -
[5]
I am for the petitionable/bannable offense as changing the corp joining/leaving rules can create problems.
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Raiden Volnar
StoneFist Pilots
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Posted - 2008.07.29 07:37:00 -
[6]
I totaly agree, this problem could be solved so easy, just by adding a 24h cooldown on joining/leaving a corp/alliance in war.
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RemusVI
Legion Federation
The Black Isle
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Posted - 2008.07.29 07:38:00 -
[7]
I agree with Desert Viper
LEGION FEDERATION
"We beleive in Vigilence ,Federalism and Freedom"
President Of The Council and Fleet Admiral:
Admiral RemusVI |
Soshaa
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Posted - 2008.07.29 08:02:00 -
[8]
I Agree with you Desert Viper, This is a total exploit
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Boma Airaken
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2008.07.29 08:36:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Boma Airaken on 29/07/2008 08:36:03
Not crap. I support.
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ZebraZone
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Posted - 2008.07.29 09:31:00 -
[10]
 Originally by: Soshaa
I Agree with you Desert Viper, This is a total exploit...
...that is only for bastards lol
a 24h time out would be great. and i like the name "concord paperwork holdup" lol
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Kazuma Saruwatari
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Posted - 2008.07.29 11:10:00 -
[11]
exploit. I mean seriously, you wait till the last second to get into the wardeccin' corp and pop whoever you found on the alt then leave?
Where's the risk/reward there?
I support a 24 leave-only penalty.
-
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Karentaki
Maximum Yarrage
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:14:00 -
[12]
ROFL - I find it funny how carebears first opened this tactic up by corp hopping to avoid wars, and are now having it used against them for easy ganks (albeit not the same people). If you do remove this, please also remove corp hopping to avoid wars. Thankyou.
However, now you are just reading my signature...
Or are you...
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Sporks FTW |
Iatnuolas
Defenders of Faith
The Black Isle
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Posted - 2008.07.29 12:50:00 -
[13]
i support this
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected]) |
Banemuth
4th Cavalry Space Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.29 13:19:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Banemuth on 29/07/2008 13:19:09
I have come across this similar behavior as well. I believe this tactic definitely rides the fine line of an exploit as Desert Viper states.
Here is the hypothetical situation:
[Players]:
Corporation A (1 person Corp; HQ based in High Sec space)
Corporation B (HQ based in High Sec space)
Member A
Member B
[Tactic]:
1) Corporation A declares war on Corporation B. Now after the initial 24 hour cool-off period, both corporations can attack each other without Concord intervention
2) Corporation B, Member B is off mining in a belt in high sec space
3) Corporation A CEO logs on and accepts membership from a player, so now the new player to Corporation A is Member A
4) Member A proceeds to destroy Member B
5) Corporation B sends a squad to hunt down Member A
6) Member A "leaves" Corporation A, so Member A is no longer a wardeccd target
7) Corporation B has no method to retaliate against Corporation A
8) Member A rejoins Corporation A and repeats step 4-8 when convenient
[Issue]:
From http://www.eve-online.com/faq/faq_12.asp, the broad definition is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö CCP also defines exploit as "[u]sing the game mechanics in any way to achieve an unintended game behavior is exploiting"
Exploit cannot be definitively defined because it would based upon the specific facts of a particular circumstance.
So the question is whether items 6-8 would be considered exploits within the game. If one player attacks another in high sec space without war declaration or aggression timers, then Concord will attack and destroy the aggressor. CCP has stated that if the aggressor escapes from Concord in high sec space, that this is an exploit. From the player perspective, when two corporations are at war, they can and will battle at any time without Concord intervention so the only intervention would be the opposing corporation in the war declaration. If a player continues to join and leave a war declared corporation just to attack a target appears to be an unfair advantage since there is no retaliation because said player is no longer in a war declared corporation. This tactic could be viewed similar to how an aggressor would escape from Concord intervention in high sec space and therefore appears to be using in game mechanics to gain an unfair advantage.
[Solution]:
During times of war declaration between corporations, there should be a cool down period (maybe 24 hours) before the player joining the war declared corporation can leave or join another corporation. This would be reasonable solution that would minimize this tactic of joining/leaving a war declared corporation on a whim.
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Gim Memore
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Posted - 2008.07.29 15:15:00 -
[15]
I hadn't thought of that before, but that is actually rediculous. Clearly an exploit!
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.29 15:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Captain Narmio
Yep, this is just dumb. 24h joining or leaving delay could be added to corporations/alliances that are at war? Call it "Concord paperwork holdups".
24 hrs is too long, it prevents the quick recruiting of pilots in a legitimate war; what if Ushra-Khan (Minmatar rp alliance) needed to quickly move lots of pilots to their alt corp in factional warfare? The problem is not the application process it is the entire war declaration system. No support.
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.29 15:57:00 -
[17]
Can't you not join or leave corporations unless you're docked? If this has changed then it's definitely a problem.
HOWEVER, leaving a corporation at war is a different story entirely. I don't think it's a tactic that's good for the game, but recipients of a war declaration need a better way to defend themselves, as obvious by the fact that they use this tactic to begin with. I think that two mechanics would help this problem:
1. Allow CONCORD to be bribed by the recipient of the war dec (only one time) to delay the beginning of the war for up to a week at a significant financial cost. 24 hours is generally not enough time to prepare a corporation for war unless it's expecting one
2. Create a mechanic that allows a third party to buy in on a war-dec, allowing mercenaries to participate in a war without paying the declaration fee if they have the blessing of the defending corporation
A little carebeary, I admit, but the fairest solution to the problem I can think of that will effectively discourage corp-hopping to avoid wars.
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Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
leutenent xxx
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Posted - 2008.07.29 15:59:00 -
[18]
Edited by: leutenent xxx on 29/07/2008 15:59:22
I Am behind Desert viper 100000000% =]
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Kethry Avenger
Krell-Korp
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:25:00 -
[19]
Yup sounds good
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Manique
Caldari
StoneFist Pilots
The Black Isle
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:50:00 -
[20]
Something really needs to be done about hopping from and within a warring corporation
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Desert Viper
StoneFist Pilots
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:58:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Desert Viper on 29/07/2008 17:05:24
actualy Kazuma Saruwatari its worse than that, the actual guy that was doing the killing would fly around, find his targets, and could easily be sitting right next to them non-hostile one minute, the alt CEO logs on, and instantly that dude thats been sitting next to you for a couple minutes is now a war target, shooting you. now keep in mind this could very easily happen with any number of players. so theoreticaly any dude next to you could instantly become a war target with the blink of an eye. using alt scouts in empire to aide in war has always been used, but thats not the issue at hand.
and about the joining / leaving a corporation, you can have your application accepted while in space, the main factor in this particular tactic is having the application to the warring corporation accepted right when your about to pounce on someone.
so joining a corporation can happen wether docked, or undocked. but leaving the corporation currently can only happen while docked. even the CEO can not kick a player from a corporation while the player is in space, unless hes logged off in space.
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Alone i am only a man, but together, we are a force unstopable |
Fahtim Meidires
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Desert Viper
actualy Kazuma Saruwatari its worse than that, the actual guy that was doing the killing would fly around, find his targets, and could easily be sitting right next to them non-hostile one minute, the alt CEO logs on, and instantly that dude thats been sitting next to you for a couple minutes is now a war target, shooting you. now keep in mind this could very easily happen with any number of players. so theoreticaly any dude next to you could instantly become a war target with the blink of an eye.
and about the joining / leaving a corporation, you can have your application accepted while in space, the main factor in this particular tactic is having the application to the warring corporation accepted right when your about to pounce on someone.
so joining a corporation can happen wether docked, or undocked. but leaving the corporation currently can only happen while docked. even the CEO can not kick a player from a corporation while the player is in space, unless hes logged off in space.
Got it. Add a step to the application process that forces pilots to be docked up to join a corporation:
1) pilots applies
2) CEO or director accepts application and sends offer
3) Pilot docks in a station and accepts offer, immediately joining corporation
I always wondered why this wasn't the process. It also allows pilots to send out multiple applications, wait a week, then pick the corporation they like best.
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Desert Viper
StoneFist Pilots
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:08:00 -
[23]
Fahtim Meidires that used to be the case not too long ago, it used to be a 3 step proces to get into a corporation, exactly as you said. apply, accept, accept offer. they streamlined it not too long ago, bringing it down to only two steps, apply, accepted.
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Alone i am only a man, but together, we are a force unstopable |
Fahtim Meidires
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Desert Viper
Fahtim Meidires that used to be the case not too long ago, it used to be a 3 step proces to get into a corporation, exactly as you said. apply, accept, accept offer. they streamlined it not too long ago, bringing it down to only two steps, apply, accepted.
What was their rationale other than one less step? Any reason why it should be reimplemented?
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Desert Viper
StoneFist Pilots
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:17:00 -
[25]
that i dont know, i personaly am glad they streamlined it, makes things easier, although reducing steps in one area is bound to open up loopholes in another, so its a balancing act, one way or another.
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Alone i am only a man, but together, we are a force unstopable |
Deathifier
Carebears Must Die Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:21:00 -
[26]
Crack down on this exploit asap.
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Regulottus
E.M.P. Industries
Malum Exuro
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:27:00 -
[27]
I agree with above :)
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Turiel Demon
SHRIKE.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:46:00 -
[28]
Yar, I disliked corp-hopping already, and we in TNT recently experienced a similar incident where a wartarget quit corp on jumping through into our gatecamp, hoping to get us concorded by attacking him.
----
nothing to see here, move along nicely now, is that a pink dread out there. aaww you just missed it -eris
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Solanthus LightBringer
Defenders of Faith
The Black Isle
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Posted - 2008.07.29 18:31:00 -
[29]
This is using game mechanics in a way that is not intended.
This is an exploit.
Solanthus Lightbringer
Don't Get Mad.
Get Even.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.07.29 20:13:00 -
[30]
Easy fix, make war declaration a per-player flag.
A: Your corp gets war-decced by another corp. Immediately all members of your corp and theirs are flagged, individually, as being at war.
B: One of your corpies jumps to escape the war... no such luck, he still has the war flag for the duration of this war cycle (1 week), no matter where he goes or what corp he joins (this flag does not transfer to the new corp).
C: An unknown joins the corp that's at war with you is flagged as thus, and this flag remains with that individual even if they jump corp (as stated with B) for the remaining duration of the current war cycle.
This fixes many warfare loopholes.
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