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Nice guys get backstabbed, then finish last.

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Jones Bones Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:20:00 - [31] 3 DPS heavy cruisers take out a speed tank cruiser and they say PWND? Le sigh.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:25:00 - [32] I think I figured out the problem. I posted in the wrong section. This really should have been under Features and Idea's. I should have just left the entire top portion out. I have an idea, not a whine. I get it now. The initial portion was the story on how I got to my idea. But everyone mistaken that for a whine. Ha, so silly. I simply thought I found a 'glitch'. I thought common sense would say, hey don't allow people in a team/fleet to hit each other because that absolutely makes no sense what so ever and would prevent accidental aggro. I hate comparisons but to make a short one, why tackle your own men in a football game? I considered what happened a possible 'glitch'. If I was booted from fleet then blown to smitherins I never would have mentioned a word. I just thought I found a possible 'glitch'. Need a dev to move this to Features and Idea's.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:26:00 - [33] Originally by: Jones Bones 3 DPS heavy cruisers take out a speed tank cruiser and they say PWND? Le sigh. That and the fact I made some iskies is what made it funny
Kirra Liu H O R I Z O N	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:31:00 - [34] When in a fleet you have to be able to use things like repairers, cap transporters, remote sensor boosters etc on other fleet members, thus you have to be able to lock said other member and use your modules on them. So if CCP was to stop people from shooting other gang members they would have to do even more coding to allow them to still use "non combat" modules on eachother. This would firstly lead to more bugs probably as the coding was ironed out and secondly eve is not a gam where youre supposed to be safe from hostility. Why fix something that isnt even broken. Dont fly with people that you dont know unless you understand that they could be easily plotting your impending doom. P.S. I flew recently with two pirates and didnt know them, knew it could be a trap especially considering one of them had advised me on my ships fittings and rigs so he knew what I was flying, I knew the risk and took it, we had a good time and the only kills were when fighting other people.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:32:00 - [35] Edited by: DubanFP on 29/07/2008 23:33:50 Originally by: Highwind Cid I think I figured out the problem. I posted in the wrong section. This really should have been under Features and Idea's. I should have just left the entire top portion out. I have an idea, not a whine. I get it now. The initial portion was the story on how I got to my idea. But everyone mistaken that for a whine. Ha, so silly. I simply thought I found a 'glitch'. I thought common sense would say, hey don't allow people in a team/fleet to hit each other because that absolutely makes no sense what so ever and would prevent accidental aggro. I hate comparisons but to make a short one, why tackle your own men in a football game? I considered what happened a possible 'glitch'. If I was booted from fleet then blown to smitherins I never would have mentioned a word. I just thought I found a possible 'glitch'. Need a dev to move this to Features and Idea's. I tried, but it's just obvious now. You don't "get" EVE. It's the fact that EVE doesn't force you to do anything that makes it so great. You can kill people in highsec. There are penalties like losing your ship, but nothing says you can't kill someone right in front of concord. This idea will NEVER EVER be implimented because it goes against a basic rule that makes EVE. Freedom to do anything for better or worse. P.S. Losing a stabber desn't "make" you isk when you would have "made" more isk just by selling it. In the end you're still down the cost of a stabber. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:43:00 - [36] Originally by: Kirra Liu secondly eve is not a gam where youre supposed to be safe from hostility. Let me fix that. ...secondly eve is not a game where you're supposed to be safe from stupidity. Firing on your own members in a fleet is stupid. Is tackling your own members in a football game not stupid? Answer the question. Don't beat around the bush. Answer the question. Yes and no are the only valid answers. Anything else will be disregarded.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:46:00 - [37] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 29/07/2008 23:37:40 Originally by: Highwind Cid I think I figured out the problem. I posted in the wrong section. This really should have been under Features and Idea's. I should have just left the entire top portion out. I have an idea, not a whine. I get it now. The initial portion was the story on how I got to my idea. But everyone mistaken that for a whine. Ha, so silly. I simply thought I found a 'glitch'. I thought common sense would say, hey don't allow people in a team/fleet to hit each other because that absolutely makes no sense what so ever and would prevent accidental aggro. I hate comparisons but to make a short one, why tackle your own men in a football game? I considered what happened a possible 'glitch'. If I was booted from fleet then blown to smitherins I never would have mentioned a word. I just thought I found a possible 'glitch'. Need a dev to move this to Features and Idea's. I tried, but it's just obvious now. You either don't "get" EVE or you're a troll. Oh well. In the case you're not a troll I wish you luck in finding a game you will like. What' you're asking is against the entire concept of EVE. Freedom to do anything anywhere for better or worse. Riddle my this. Why can't I fly a titan to Jita and let the DD have a ball? That isn't freedom my friend. What is it?
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Highwind Cid Let me fix that. ...secondly eve is not a game where you're supposed to be safe from stupidity. Firing on your own members in a fleet is stupid. Is tackling your own members in a football game not stupid? Answer the question. Don't beat around the bush. Answer the question. Yes and no are the only valid answers. Anything else will be disregarded. In a football game what's good for one player is good for the rest. This is irrelevant to EVE. EVE is more like a giant tank filled with many different sharks and a few seals for good measure. The sharks may not attack each other for a bit since they want the easy kills first, but in the end it's every shark for themselves. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.29 23:54:00 - [39] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Highwind Cid Let me fix that. ...secondly eve is not a game where you're supposed to be safe from stupidity. Firing on your own members in a fleet is stupid. Is tackling your own members in a football game not stupid? Answer the question. Don't beat around the bush. Answer the question. Yes and no are the only valid answers. Anything else will be disregarded. In a football game what's good for one player is good for the rest. This is irrelevant to EVE. EVE is more like a giant tank filled with many different sharks and a few seals for good measure. The sharks may not attack each other for a bit since they want the easy kills first, but in the end it's every shark for themselves. So regarding your first bit your saying whats good for one member in a fleet is not good for the rest in a fleet. Are fleets not designed for gathering people to accomplish a goal? They are not designed to make teams and then blow each other up. Where starting to go back and forth between game mechanics and functionality of the 'tools' I consider the fleet a tool, a team.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.30 00:13:00 - [40] Edited by: DubanFP on 30/07/2008 00:20:03 Edited by: DubanFP on 30/07/2008 00:17:55 Originally by: Highwind Cid So regarding your first bit your saying whats good for one member in a fleet is not good for the rest in a fleet. Are fleets not designed for gathering people to accomplish a goal? They are not designed to make teams and then blow each other up. Where starting to go back and forth between game mechanics and functionality of the 'tools' isn't the fleet a tool, a team? Fleets are made to organize a group of people who accept the organization. No more no less. What they wish to do after that is their buisiness and not CCPs. Originally by: Highwind Cid whats good for one member in a fleet is not NESSISSARILY good for the rest in a fleet. Changed it to be more accurate, but yes. Teamplay has a lot of tools, like fleets/corps/alliances/etc, that can get be used to get great things. You can be part of a team and get the benifits, but a basic rule of EVE is that it gives the freedom to the individual players to choose how to use those tools. Just don't trust anybody who hasn't earned it and you'll be fine. It's the same as if you gave director roles to people in your corporation. They can do whatever those roles let them, including stealing the corp's wallet and assets. Chances are you wouldn't give them the abillity to do this unless they've earned it. It's made to be for the group, but it's up to the individuals to enforce it. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Ess Erbe Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.30 00:21:00 - [41] Originally by: Highwind Cid Originally by: Ess Erbe Originally by: Highwind Cid The question at hand was should pilots in the same fleet be able to open fire upon each other. Why shouldn't they be able to fire upon each other? Why should they? Because EVE is the closest thing there is to a sandbox game where player interactions with each other are free of limitations. You can attack anyone, at any time, anywhere, if you are prepared to deal with the consequences. That is why fleet members should be able to fire upon each other. That is why they are able to fire upon each other - because there is no reason at all for them not to be able to fire upon each other.
Kirra Liu Echelon Holdings	Posted - 2008.07.30 00:51:00 - [42] OMG, if youre scared of joining a fleet with people that you dont know and dont want to risk being killed by them do the following: Join a carebear corp Boss the other guys around and make them only fly procurers during mining ops Do your mining in a fully combat fit battleship You wont get much mining done but atleast the procurers in your squad didnt gang up and pwn your ass.
William DeMeo Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.07.30 01:04:00 - [43] Originally by: Highwind Cid hmm, still not answers to my question. Can anyone think of a good reason fleet members should be able to fire upon each other? So people don't have to leave gang to gank carebears they've lured into a trap. Yarr
Grarr Dexx Amarr Naval Protection Corp Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.07.30 02:59:00 - [44] Originally by: Highwind Cid Originally by: Jennifer Celeste Originally by: Highwind Cid hmm, still not answers to my question. Can anyone think of a good reason fleet members should be able to fire upon each other? even if he wasnt in your fleet...he can shoot you in low sec. what the hell are you missing about this one, you dumb shit. You my friend, are missing the point. The question at hand was should pilots in the same fleet be able to open fire upon each other. AKA fit a mechanic where you have to first disband the member from the fleet and then attack. What did this have to do with any sec? I didn't even mention sec status in my question. It dealt strictly with Fleet members opening fire upon each other. Next. Your own stupid fault, you were in lowsec, in highsec you need to be CORPIES to attack someone.
tripodbilly	Posted - 2008.07.30 11:27:00 - [45] Another nub Pwn'd in lo sec. His nxt post will be, why oh why did you pod me. And CCP plz fix this Podding thing i didnt have an up to date clone.. Bore off
Terra Mikael NightCrew	Posted - 2008.07.30 11:36:00 - [46] Originally by: Highwind Cid I was pwned yes very. it made me laugh. _________________________________________________ Ninja Looter, Ninja Salvager, And High sec suicide Ganker - Making high-sec feel like low-sec, not for ISK, but for LuLz.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.30 12:55:00 - [47] I'm stupid because I tried to implement common sense? Ya know what, forgot I even mentioned the hilarious trick or treat prank. In fact cut everything out and pretend I just mentioned the fleet as a tool. I don't care if EVE is harsh I don't care about scams(The first portion of the story was to explain how I came to the idea of the fleet friendly fire, not to cry about it, this needs to me moved to ideas and features, that was my mistake) I don't care what you ate for dinner last night. I've read the forums for a awhile now and observed you guys go about the same exact trend in other threads. You say words. Then mention something along the lines of EVE being elite. Then end it with StuFf? Or Hello Kitty online. I thought maybe possibly I was onto something. But at any rate I get the, eve is harsh blahza blah, something somethin, insert some more text here that has nothing to do my idea, etc etc. Plus I noticed how no one answered my yes or no questions. Because then they would realize. Oh, huh, that is kind of stupid thing to do. Doesn't follow the norm for common sense. Anyways let this thread go idle, get buried and eventually locked. Busts out the ol' guitar I close my eyes only for a moment and the moment's gone all my dreams pass before my eyes a curiosity dust in the wind all we are is dust in the wind
Lord Det	Posted - 2008.07.30 13:32:00 - [48] Edited by: Lord Det on 30/07/2008 13:34:07 Is it common sense that corpmembers can shoot each other in highsec? Is it ok that corpmembers can shoot each other in highsec when they created a fleet with corpmembers only? Is it ok that corpmembers can shoot each other in lowsec? Is it ok to shoot at another player in highsec? Is it ok to shoot at another player in lowsec? Is it ok to shoot at another player? Is it ok to shoot at a fleet member? Is it ok to shoot at a non fleet member? Is it ok to shoot at an alliance member? Is it ok to shoot at a faction member? Is it ok to play a game where the game blocks you from mistakes? Is it fun to play a game where the game blocks you from mistakes? Is it boring to pay a game where the game blocks you from mistakes? Please answer yes/no only. Simple questions, simple answers. I'll answer your yes/no questions: yes no yes yes and btw, I agree with you that it would be stupid to kick a player from a fleet before you can attack him. Wouldn't make a difference anyway either
tripodbilly	Posted - 2008.07.30 13:34:00 - [49] Maybe if we mention garmon this thread will be locked. GARMON, plz Mintel
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.30 14:50:00 - [50] Is it common sense that corpmembers can shoot each other in highsec? No (Why would you hit your own m8? That defines stupid.) Is it ok that corpmembers can shoot each other in highsec when they created a fleet with corpmembers only?No(Again why would you hit your own m8?) Is it ok that corpmembers can shoot each other in lowsec?No(I don't see how sec status has anything to do with the fleets) Is it ok to shoot at another player in highsec?Yes(Concordoken! infact thats how I lost my first ship, now that was funny and the guy I chased gave me some start off iskies for the laughs) Is it ok to shoot at another player in lowsec?Yes Is it ok to shoot at another player?Yes Is it ok to shoot at a fleet member?No(I think the answer from me on this was massively clear) Is it ok to shoot at a non fleet member?Yes Is it ok to shoot at an alliance member?No(Again why would you shoot your own m8 on the same team? Doesn't make sense) Is it ok to shoot at a faction member? In FW no, if you mean any joe where your amarr and their amarr yes Is it ok to play a game where the game blocks you from mistakes?Yes(Prevents headaches, e.g. FW can get a little stupid when people in the same fleet AND militia shoot at each other. Then someone gets their panties in a bunch and tempers start flying.Not mine, I laugh because of the stupidity, even if its myself getting concordoken or tricked) Is it fun to play a game where the game blocks you from mistakes?No(Whoops I forgot to bring my drones in ahwell, at least the market will benefit) Is it boring to play a game where the game blocks you from mistakes?No.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.30 15:40:00 - [51] Edited by: DubanFP on 30/07/2008 15:44:01 Originally by: Highwind Cid I'm stupid because I tried to implement common sense? Ya know what, forgot I even mentioned the hilarious trick or treat prank. In fact cut everything out and pretend I just mentioned the fleet as a tool. I don't care if EVE is harsh I don't care about scams(The first portion of the story was to explain how I came to the idea of the fleet friendly fire, not to cry about it, this needs to me moved to ideas and features, that was my mistake) I don't care what you ate for dinner last night. I've read the forums for a awhile now and observed you guys go about the same exact trend in other threads. You say words. Then mention something along the lines of EVE being elite. Then end it with StuFf? Or Hello Kitty online. I thought maybe possibly I was onto something. But at any rate I get the, eve is harsh blahza blah, something somethin, insert some more text here that has nothing to do my idea, etc etc. Plus I noticed how no one answered my yes or no questions. Because then they would realize. Oh, huh, that is kind of stupid thing to do. Doesn't follow the norm for common sense. Anyways let this thread go idle, get buried and eventually locked. Abridged version: I asked to change a fundimental part of EVE and lost the arguement by a wide margin. I asked a question that wasn't at all relevant to the situation and got angry when it was ignored. Instead of admitting I was wrong I'm blaming everyone else for disagreeing with me. How old are you? I hope young because if not you have no excuse for acting this way. Refusing to accept defeat is very childish. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Nexus Kinnon A Few Good Men.	Posted - 2008.07.30 15:45:00 - [52] Wow everyone on page 2 has posted an awful lot of words just to say "you're wrong"
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.30 15:52:00 - [53] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 30/07/2008 15:44:01 Originally by: Highwind Cid I'm stupid because I tried to implement common sense? Ya know what, forgot I even mentioned the hilarious trick or treat prank. In fact cut everything out and pretend I just mentioned the fleet as a tool. I don't care if EVE is harsh I don't care about scams(The first portion of the story was to explain how I came to the idea of the fleet friendly fire, not to cry about it, this needs to me moved to ideas and features, that was my mistake) I don't care what you ate for dinner last night. I've read the forums for a awhile now and observed you guys go about the same exact trend in other threads. You say words. Then mention something along the lines of EVE being elite. Then end it with StuFf? Or Hello Kitty online. I thought maybe possibly I was onto something. But at any rate I get the, eve is harsh blahza blah, something somethin, insert some more text here that has nothing to do my idea, etc etc. Plus I noticed how no one answered my yes or no questions. Because then they would realize. Oh, huh, that is kind of stupid thing to do. Doesn't follow the norm for common sense. Anyways let this thread go idle, get buried and eventually locked. Abridged version: I asked to change a fundimental part of EVE and lost the arguement by a wide margin. I asked a question that wasn't at all relevant to the situation and got angry when it was ignored. Instead of admitting I was wrong I'm blaming everyone else for disagreeing with me. How old are you? I hope young because if not you have no excuse for acting this way. Refusing to accept defeat is very childish. Fundamental? You think shooting others in the same fleet is fundamental part of EVE? So be it. Nobody here is on the same page other than the ones that think I'm trolling over an absolute minuscule loss.(Which I'm not) You just cant accept the fact that I'm not the typical whiner and I'm not spoon feeding you "I want my ship back", or "Dear Mr. Pirates your meany heads but if I talk sophisticated ill sound smart and tough". Besides this post has hit 50 replies. The experiment is over.
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.30 17:29:00 - [54] Originally by: Highwind Cid Fundamental? You think shooting others in the same fleet is fundamental part of EVE? So be it. Actually, being able to shoot anyone in Eve is a fundamental part of Eve... fleets don't have anything to do with it. Why would the game stop you from attacking a member in your own fleet? I agree with you that it is common sense NOT to shoot fleet membesr but should the game be designed such that you cannot shoot him at all? Eve has been made such that you can make terrible mistakes.... really terrible mistakes. Even more, you can't ask a GM to refund you if you made such a mistake. It's harsh... and it's that part of Eve that makes Eve so great. So yes, it should be possible to shoot your own fleet members even if it doesn't make sense, you should still be able to do so. A fleet should not protect you from the wrath of your fleet members. They will get concord after them if they shoot you in highsec, they get a 15 min agro timer if they shoot you in lowsec. Btw, you confirmed that it's no fun to play a game where players are protected from mistakes (shooting a fleet member by accident for example can be a mistake): Originally by: Highwind Cid Is it fun to play a game where the game blocks you from mistakes?No(Whoops I forgot to bring my drones in ahwell, at least the market will benefit)
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.30 18:04:00 - [55] Originally by: Detrol Originally by: Highwind Cid Fundamental? You think shooting others in the same fleet is fundamental part of EVE? So be it. Actually, being able to shoot anyone in Eve is a fundamental part of Eve... fleets don't have anything to do with it. Why would the game stop you from attacking a member in your own fleet? I agree with you that it is common sense NOT to shoot fleet membesr but should the game be designed such that you cannot shoot him at all? Eve has been made such that you can make terrible mistakes.... really terrible mistakes. Even more, you can't ask a GM to refund you if you made such a mistake. It's harsh... and it's that part of Eve that makes Eve so great. So yes, it should be possible to shoot your own fleet members even if it doesn't make sense, you should still be able to do so. A fleet should not protect you from the wrath of your fleet members. They will get concord after them if they shoot you in highsec, they get a 15 min agro timer if they shoot you in lowsec. Btw, you confirmed that it's no fun to play a game where players are protected from mistakes (shooting a fleet member by accident for example can be a mistake): Originally by: Highwind Cid Is it fun to play a game where the game blocks you from mistakes?No(Whoops I forgot to bring my drones in ahwell, at least the market will benefit) I meant to say yes on that one, at least I reflected the yes type answer in that so you don't think I'm a liar. Sorry. But finally I reached someone who came up with a really really good reply. You made good points, and provided good examples. I really don't have any points to contradict in your reply yet it wins against my argument. Thanks.
Jethro Amar	Posted - 2008.07.31 11:19:00 - [56] Is it ok to be able to shoot corpmates/fleetmates? yes - there's no barrier between your ships, so why not? Is it ok to shoot fleetmates / corpmates without Concord's reaction? Yes - after all you don't call police when you see brothers fighting. And it allows them to train their pvp skills in highsec. Wasn't so hard to answer the question WITHOUT INSULTING ANYONE, was it?
Tarek Tarazul	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:13:00 - [57] Originally by: Jethro Amar Yes - after all you don't call police when you see brothers fighting. You don't call police when someone beats up his wife/daughter/son/brother (short: familymember)? Uh.. nice ... As for the mechanics: It should be possible out of two reasons: -treason, criminals and so on...(which is what happened here) -friendly fire (you know, US-Armys hobby second only to collateral damages) There is nothing wrong with it being possible, but (in high sec) i would like a response from "police".
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.07.31 13:24:00 - [58] Originally by: Highwind Cid yadda yadda yadda, shooting fleetmembers is bad, nobody wants to do it, change the game for me, yadda yadda yadda Please be informed that I shoot fleet members regularly. Why? Because we test our tanks, see for how much damage we can be hit at certain speeds, etc. This is what we call intended game mechanics. There is nothing broken. There will be no fix. There is only one way to avoid what happened to you - don't trust!
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:01:00 - [59] Originally by: H Lecter Originally by: Highwind Cid yadda yadda yadda, shooting fleetmembers is bad, nobody wants to do it, change the game for me, yadda yadda yadda Please be informed that I shoot fleet members regularly. Why? Because we test our tanks, see for how much damage we can be hit at certain speeds, etc. This is what we call intended game mechanics. There is nothing broken. There will be no fix. There is only one way to avoid what happened to you - don't trust! Strange, I'm sure I mentioned several posts above I've been convinced why shooting members of the same fleet works. Yet you still go on, as well as the other couple posters above. Do you think I changed my mind overnight? If so (I didn't) how would you know since I haven't even posted since my mine was changed? I did not ask for a fix. I simply mentioned an idea and why does it work the way it does. A person above posted an explanation that I had no arguments against yet still was able to 'win' my argument. I did however have some awesome Penna Pasta with squash and rather spicy red sauce the other day. Now thats something to talk about.
Dihania Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:42:00 - [60] Shooting at a fleet member is legit and here is why in examples: A. You fly with your corporation friends seeking war targets and every time you go out the other guys outsmart you and your operation ends terrible. This leads to corporation talks and the higher ups in the corporation unning checks and finaly they find out you have a spy among you. B. The corporation you are in or just you as a pilot are part of the militia and you fly around killing people or waiting for people to bite and jjump into you at a complex or gate or belt. You proceed to kill the enemy pilots and are successfull but when ti comes down to taking the nice loot rewards a guy in the fleet keeps stealing it. So you do the hard work while a random guy that flies with you get all the loot. This happends all the time. So you kill him to make a point and get revenge. C. A more practical reason for this is that many modules that help you in a gang, like remote repairers, capacitor transfer, shield and also drones use the target mechanic. This means the machanics behind these modules should be changed or checks for the type of module activated should be added. Unfortunately the technology has limits. These limits are hardware, software, human. D. When you go in a fleet with someone you are warned that it is dangerous. So going in a fleet with people you do not know thus do(should) not trust is just like going into low sec space, a dangerous act that you choose to make (take? engrish). E. When in a fleet and doublecrossed the attacker gets a security rating penalty. [hrhr] Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.

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