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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
   |
Posted - 2008.07.29 16:49:00 -
[1]
Basically, I'm thinking about NPC's who travel between systems, go through gates, and even mine in belts and dock at stations. These include trade ships, NPC corporation 'security' and industrialists.
Heard a lot of responses about bringing the rewards up in low sec to 'drive' the high-sec players into into the systems. But as one player noted, carebears kill weak rats and militants, and pirates prey on defensless miners and missioners.
Obviously, that's a gross generalization. BUT, if a 'pirate' could attack an empire convoy, could prey on an NPC corporations low-sec mining team, could even camp gate traffic as 'couriers' and security teams traveled through?
The NPC's would be tougher because they work in low-sec, and wouldn't fit the standard 'rat' mindset. Convoy haulers may have stab builds. Couriers may be flying interceptors with MWD's. Security sweeps would be irregular and not respond like CONCORD, thus engaged or run from as the pirates see fit.
Basically, put the missing NPC's in low-sec. Sec hits still happen, though they are MUCH smaller. Standings hits may come about with the corporation your preying on.
Bah, just an idea. It doesn't substitute for player ganks, but it may make a general gate camp more profitable if they more targets to camp, without trying to force a players hand. And hell, it may actually draw more players from high-sec, if the rewards for being a dastardly deviant are high enough.
Genesis Project |
Ur235
Dawn of Fire
Pure.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:56:00 -
[2]
If you want stuff like that play x3 or x2. NPC traffic simply wouldnt work in eve
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:58:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Ur235
If you want stuff like that play x3 or x2. NPC traffic simply wouldnt work in eve
In-box thinking.
It would work, it could work, and it most likely would work. Transports, escorts, etc. Quite easily too.
Different matter if CCP wants to add more NPCs to a player driven economy.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
TheG2
Gallente
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:00:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ruze
Basically, I'm thinking about NPC's who travel between systems, go through gates, and even mine in belts and dock at stations. These include trade ships, NPC corporation 'security' and industrialists.
Heard a lot of responses about bringing the rewards up in low sec to 'drive' the high-sec players into into the systems. But as one player noted, carebears kill weak rats and militants, and pirates prey on defensless miners and missioners.
Obviously, that's a gross generalization. BUT, if a 'pirate' could attack an empire convoy, could prey on an NPC corporations low-sec mining team, could even camp gate traffic as 'couriers' and security teams traveled through?
The NPC's would be tougher because they work in low-sec, and wouldn't fit the standard 'rat' mindset. Convoy haulers may have stab builds. Couriers may be flying interceptors with MWD's. Security sweeps would be irregular and not respond like CONCORD, thus engaged or run from as the pirates see fit.
Basically, put the missing NPC's in low-sec. Sec hits still happen, though they are MUCH smaller. Standings hits may come about with the corporation your preying on.
Bah, just an idea. It doesn't substitute for player ganks, but it may make a general gate camp more profitable if they more targets to camp, without trying to force a players hand. And hell, it may actually draw more players from high-sec, if the rewards for being a dastardly deviant are high enough.
I'd support this idea more but I'm pretty sure it'd just cause more lag. Although the mechanic is already there with Couriers etc.
Interesting idea, belongs in Feature Suggestion.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:00:00 -
[5]
Too much added weight to the nodes, probably. There wouldn't be anything wrong with it as eye candy in systems, but if it wasn't serving any vital purpose the extra lag wouldn't be worth it.
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GallenteCitizen20080615
Gallente
Federation War News
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:01:00 -
[6]
it would be nice just to have NPC traffic to make the universe seem busier and alive obviously not having ships like ours as they arnt capsuleers
but civilian transports or something would be nice even just to look at just to show that it not just us there
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
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ApaKaka
Lone Starr Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:03:00 -
[7]
NPC convoys already do that, in-system.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:04:00 -
[8]
I'd like it. I'd like both sides of the coins actually, NPC traffic for pirates to prey on, and NPC fleets to prey on the pirates. Sufficient balancing would ensure that neither was particularly bothersome.
There are technical questions of lag and so on, but that's something for the devs to do.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
justsometrader
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:06:00 -
[9]
yeah we definatly need more lag 
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:07:00 -
[10]
Murdering NPC's just hasn't got the same appeal as murdering the players who already perform those tasks.
What does this add?
You can already kill NPC haulers, but it doesn't seem like the most popular occupation in Eve, why would this be diferent?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
GallenteCitizen20080615
Gallente
Federation War News
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:11:00 -
[11]
ermm ill get back to you when i find the awnser to your question O_O
never thought of that
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
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TheG2
Gallente
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 29/07/2008 17:07:27
Murdering NPC's just hasn't got the same appeal as murdering the players who already perform those tasks.
What does this add?
You can already kill NPC haulers, but it doesn't seem like the most popular occupation in Eve, why would this be different?
True, I murder enough Macro/farmer haulers as it is :(
Basically the same thing
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:22:00 -
[13]
I guess that in a perfect game, there would be very little difference between most NPC's and players, at least in outward identification. If you saw a battlecruiser, you wouldn't be able to instantly discern if it was player or npc run, and attacking it would not prove that out either, as you might end up picking a fight with a weak NPC ai, or a very strong one. Controlled randomness.
Yes, we have 'convoys' that in no way look or act like player convoys. There isn't NPC gate traffic. There are NPC miners. If your reason for being a pirate is criminal activity, the only option you have is killing players. There is no other way for you to make money and still live out the role you want to play.
But there's a primitive difference between a pirate and a griefer. One is as much a roleplayer as one who enjoys PvP. Griefers, however, aren't in low-sec for profit or roleplay. They are there to cause other players pain and misery. And as we teach new players NOT to risk going into low-sec, griefers lose their level of enjoyment. More and more, low-sec activity lessens. Actual pirates are left with little to do, but griefers adapt and move into high-sec.
I'm not proposing millions of ships per system. I think maybe a ship or two through a gate every few minutes would be interesting. The real challenge is updating AI and tactics so that different NPC's respond with interest and challenge to a pirate attack. Miners calling in assistance. Haulers being stab'd or tanked, or both. Couriers trying their hardest to get away.
Even fight-or-flight patterns in AI, so that you can get a good chase going. And in the very least, this would be like 'ratting' for gate campers who are working during off hours.
Genesis Project |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 17:27:00 -
[14]
By the way, more than once I've run into rats 'camping' a gate, especially in 0.0. What's wrong with making NPC rats more like player pirates, and NPC carebears more like player carebears?
And as far as lag goes, there are many, many agent 'hubs' where missions are being run 23/7. Missions with up to 40 rats or more, constantly being spawned and destroyed, or even just left in space. I don't know if I honestly believed that NPC 'traffic' would have any effect at all on server load.
Course, I wouldn't want to see any of them in Jita, but the same goes for missions there, too.
Genesis Project |
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:31:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ruze
By the way, more than once I've run into rats 'camping' a gate, especially in 0.0. What's wrong with making NPC rats more like player pirates, and NPC carebears more like player carebears?
I still don't see what the point would be?
If you do all that, why bother with other players at all?
Eve rightly focuses on player interaction, rather than being a game of NPC questing with built in chat like so many other MMOGs.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 17:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Ruze
By the way, more than once I've run into rats 'camping' a gate, especially in 0.0. What's wrong with making NPC rats more like player pirates, and NPC carebears more like player carebears?
I still don't see what the point would be?
If you do all that, why bother with other players at all?
Eve rightly focuses on player interaction, rather than being a game of NPC questing with built in chat like so many other MMOGs.
Because the simple fact of the matter is that you can't force player interaction. CCP tries very hard, sticking with many bottlenecks and few stations. They try to enforce camps.
I've seen many ideas and calls to decrease high-sec payout, increase low sec payout. Remove asteroids from high-sec. So many want to FORCE players who are content with playing in only a small section of EvE, into the rest. But even your own comments just prove that my personal reasonings for staying primarily in high-sec.
You want more player interaction? Take out the players who get a kick out of ganking and griefing. Then lots of high-sec players would swoop into low-sec, because what you would have left are mostly part-time pirates and a lot of 0.0 folks.
EvE has a PvP undertone built on an NPC storyline and support network. The majority of the ships, stations, worlds and interactions in EvE are behind the scenes NPC events. If it was a pure PvP game like so many pretend to be, there would be no high sec, there would be no Empires, there would be no backstory, there would be nothing at all that existed that wasn't gathered, built and run by players.
Genesis Project |
Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:44:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Matalino on 29/07/2008 17:47:27
Originally by: ApaKaka
NPC convoys already do that, in-system.
This!
Aside from NPC miners we already have that, it just that everyone ignors them.  Originally by: Ruze
By the way, more than once I've run into rats 'camping' a gate, especially in 0.0. What's wrong with making NPC rats more like player pirates, and NPC carebears more like player carebears?
You mean like having NPC warp away in terror when you start stomping on them?
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Zephyr Rengate
dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: justsometrader
yeah we definatly need more lag
Do you really think these will cause extra lag?
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:49:00 -
[19]
I guess my biggest argument is that, at one point in time, EvE was a hardcore and violent game where PvP was king. And really, I enjoy PvP, but I didn't enjoy EvE then. And as EvE grows, it has stretched more and more towards NPC and player interactions.
Faction Warfare means the empires are no longer static hosts. Thousands of missions have been added. Rats populate hundreds of belts. Chronicles keep the storyline up to date and active. Complexes have been created, new and more difficult mission styles are already reality.
And yet, there is no real new additions to those who play EvE from a criminal element. If anything, all these great and new additions have taken away the only thing they could shoot at. As more players come into EvE, many of them prefering a game where they work for the Empires (fighting players in FW or NPC's in missions)? As 0.0 becomes more and more the territory of super alliances that don't change and hold all the cards?
Yeah. Empire couriers and haulers moving in low-sec systems doesn't sound like it's going to break the bank, only annoy the paranoid who only want to grief.
Genesis Project |
Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:50:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 29/07/2008 17:50:30
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate
Originally by: justsometrader
yeah we definatly need more lag
Do you really think these will cause extra lag?
More stuff on the grid means reduced frame rates. It's why I zoom all the way out in Level 4's.
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GallenteCitizen20080615
Gallente
Federation War News
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:53:00 -
[21]
wait you zoom out for level 4's
i never had to and running a standard PC
the trick is not to mission run in dodixie or motsu
try jel for gallente
that 10 million isk please
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 18:26:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 29/07/2008 17:50:30
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate
Originally by: justsometrader
yeah we definatly need more lag
Do you really think these will cause extra lag?
More stuff on the grid means reduced frame rates. It's why I zoom all the way out in Level 4's.
That has more to do with your own client and the ISP. Server load from this idea would be minuscule at worst.
Genesis Project |
GallenteCitizen20080615
Gallente
Federation War News
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 18:32:00 -
[23]
fibre optic is a suggestion
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
|
Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.29 18:35:00 -
[24]
yeah, it wouldnt add much load....
most of it is gfx being loaded...
and yeah, I dont think the traffic would be anywhere near lvl 4 mish... unless is a friggin huge convoy...
Originally by: CCP Atropos
I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.29 18:36:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ruze
EvE has a PvP undertone built on an NPC storyline and support network.
Ah, now I see where you are going wrong.
All that storyline and stuff .. it's just fluff mate.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Lillian D'Florite
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 18:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Ruze
EvE has a PvP undertone built on an NPC storyline and support network.
Ah, now I see where you are going wrong.
All that storyline and stuff .. it's just fluff mate.
..... and hows what you said different than what he said?... is fluff... but fluff that makes eve feel ... like a sandbox? =P that there are background stuff going on...
and yeah.... not saying is not needed, but it would add immersion factor...(for the people who are after .....errr you know... a virtual world instead of just pew pew pew everything thats not blue.... oh wait!!!! nvm... )
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Shiho Weitong
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.29 18:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Ruze
EvE has a PvP undertone built on an NPC storyline and support network.
Ah, now I see where you are going wrong.
All that storyline and stuff .. it's just fluff mate.
And that fluff is what makes the game so fantastic and immersive. If eve had just been another run of the mill space combat simulator, I for one wouldn't have been here, and i suspect that goes for a lot of other players.
Npc's with a modi****of AI would be nice.
-----------------------
Why is it called common sense, when it's clearly very rare.
I had a mind once, but alas, I seem to have forgotten where I left it. |
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 18:49:00 -
[28]
No, what makes Eve great is that it is player driven.
Background fluff is all fine an dandy, and then the consequuences of it can be seen ingame it is pretty cool.
I like the background stuff.
I like the Eve universe.
However, it isn't the focus of the game.
Eve was built to be a player driven game, and adding NPC's to simulate players isn't really in keeping with that.
There may have been a half decent arguement for it soon after release when the server population was lucky to hit 5k, but now?
No.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Faife
Minmatar
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.07.29 18:58:00 -
[29]
i always thought it'd be cool, assuming it could be done in a minimal lag fashion.
especially if you could hire them to work for you, harvest moon style.
- -
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Zeba
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.07.29 19:00:00 -
[30]
No npc entities masquerading as players plz kkthnxbuhbye.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 19:15:00 -
[31]
I'm still not understanding the argument you are giving. It is player run, mostly. I mean, players don't make named components, true. And they don't make trade items. Players don't run the empires, or own all those many stations.
My personal opinion? All that 0.0 sim city stuff is fun fluff, entertainment for about half the playerbase. BoB or Goons or any of those names don't mean jack to me. If I play in 0.0, if I PvP, it's usually in support of some small corp, in defense and whatnot. The big guys are just ... useless, I guess.
But the Empire and the storyline, those are the backbone and lifeblood of the game. The fact is, EvE is an MMORPG. Roleplaying is as important as the multiplayer part. And nothing I've suggested detracts from multiplayers. In fact, I think it adds to the content.
Immersion. Where are the NPC transports? Where are the other pilots who don't use pod technology? Our NPC's are limited to faction navy (which sits in high-sec systems and who only fight with overwhelming odds ;?j), CONCORD (which players can no longer legally fight), and pirates.
But my question to you is: what makes your ideas of how EvE should be any more valid or important than my ideas? What makes my content and immersion fluff, and your content and immersion 'real'? Or do you believe that there's no middle ground between player run 0.0 and Empire run high-sec?
Genesis Project |
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 19:21:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Ruze
Immersion. Where are the NPC transports? Where are the other pilots who don't use pod technology? Our NPC's are limited to faction navy (which sits in high-sec systems and who only fight with overwhelming odds ;?j), CONCORD (which players can no longer legally fight), and pirates.
You need to tweak your overview and brackets settings me-thinks.
Unless you have never actually seen NPC haulers?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Shiho Weitong
Caldari
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 19:29:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Shiho Weitong on 29/07/2008 19:31:55
Edited by: Shiho Weitong on 29/07/2008 19:31:02
Originally by: Avon
No, what makes Eve great is that it is player driven.
Background fluff is all fine an dandy, and then the consequuences of it can be seen ingame it is pretty cool.
I like the background stuff.
I like the Eve universe.
However, it isn't the focus of the game.
Eve was built to be a player driven game, and adding NPC's to simulate players isn't really in keeping with that.
There may have been a half decent arguement for it soon after release when the server population was lucky to hit 5k, but now?
No.
I never said that being player driven isn't part of the great things, but if that's all you want you could play pardus. But if the focus of an RPG isn't the world surronding the players interacting with each other i think we are simply not on the same page.
No, i don't want blob-fleets of npc's roaming lowsec. I would like however to get the feel that us capsuleers aren't the only ones who flies spaceships. That is, with a bit of intelligence behind it.
Rule number 1 of RP = Immersion. Immersion. Immersion.
Ed: needed to make myself a bit more clear.
-----------------------
Why is it called common sense, when it's clearly very rare.
I had a mind once, but alas, I seem to have forgotten where I left it. |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 19:54:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Ruze
Immersion. Where are the NPC transports? Where are the other pilots who don't use pod technology? Our NPC's are limited to faction navy (which sits in high-sec systems and who only fight with overwhelming odds ;?j), CONCORD (which players can no longer legally fight), and pirates.
You need to tweak your overview and brackets settings me-thinks.
Unless you have never actually seen NPC haulers?
The NPC Convoys are rare, are not widely dispersed, and destroying them isn't worth a snot. I'm talking about simulating actual traffic between systems, other than what is brought about by players. And on top of that, making it profitable for pirate characters.
Genesis Project |
Imran
Matari Akbar
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Posted - 2008.07.29 20:29:00 -
[35]
I think the issue we need to go back to which is ignored by silly players like the OP and CCP themselves is that we don't need any more innovation...
You need to fix the bloody lag which despite having RL t9 computer parts and seemingly constant upgrading of the proverbial hamsters is still the worst part of this game.
but yeah, npcs bad - fix lag yes.
__________________________________________
EwokPoacher: Why hate Gallente?
Blackest Sheep: Because we are beautiful.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 20:47:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Imran
I think the issue we need to go back to which is ignored by silly players like the OP and CCP themselves is that we don't need any more innovation...
You need to fix the bloody lag which despite having RL t9 computer parts and seemingly constant upgrading of the proverbial hamsters is still the worst part of this game.
but yeah, npcs bad - fix lag yes.
If 'silly players' would stop trying to run around in 100 man mobs, they wouldn't deal with all that lag. But it's not the PLAYERS fault that they have to push the limits of the system by making the largest battlefleet imaginable. It's the mission runners fault because there are so many NPC's about.
Become a programmer. Fix the lag yourself.
Genesis Project |
Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 20:56:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Matalino on 29/07/2008 20:56:36
Originally by: Ruze
The NPC Convoys are rare, are not widely dispersed, and destroying them isn't worth a snot.
So what specificly do you want changed?
Your not going to get them turned into ISK fountains, so the more plentiful they become more more valuable snot will be by comparision.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 21:11:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Matalino
Edited by: Matalino on 29/07/2008 20:57:46
Originally by: Ruze
The NPC Convoys are rare, are not widely dispersed, and destroying them isn't worth a snot.
So what specificly do you want changed?
Your not going to get them turned into ISK fountains, so the more plentiful they become more more valuable snot will be by comparision.
That and what makes you think that all of the "hidden" NPC traffic would be more interesting than the convoys that we already have and ignore?
I wonder if you read the post all the way through, and if you did, obviously I didn't convey the idea well enough. The concept is to make ACTUAL traffic, to make busy systems with NPCs moving about. The concept is to add NPC's to low-sec and high-sec, to give those who wish to be 'pirates' some good NPC's they can shoot at.
And to make shooting these 'good guys', especially in low-sec, AS profitable as ratting.
I was excited the first time I saw a convoy, because it seemed RIGHT. But when I learned that they were never really implemented any further than a few spawns, it really bugged me. There is nothing in space besides bad guys and us. What about all the rest of the corporations traffic and activity?
I mean, what is the purpose of low sec? What is it for?
I've never been able to explain 'immersion' to some people, despite how hard I try. A lot of people get it and understand completely, but others don't know what the hell I'm talking about or why we think it's so important.
I guess it's the same about ganking or griefing. People have tried really hard to explain why it's fun to kill another player and what is so entertaining about their complaints. It just seems stupid and weak to me, that someone enjoys that.
I guess I'll just have to agree to not understand, and maybe you'll take up the same approach. Whatever. Still, I think this is a good idea, and needs to be ironed out and put into a features discussion. And with some of the other posters feedback, and your own confusion over the difference between 'convoys' and 'traffic', I might be able to make it clearer and more concise.
Genesis Project |
Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 21:32:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ruze
I wonder if you read the post all the way through, and if you did, obviously I didn't convey the idea well enough. The concept is to make ACTUAL traffic, to make busy systems with NPCs moving about. The concept is to add NPC's to low-sec and high-sec, to give those who wish to be 'pirates' some good NPC's they can shoot at.
I did read your response, and then followed it through with a fair bit of thought that basicly went like so:
Currently convoys have a value for killing them on par with high sec belt rats: not worth the time if you have access to anything comparable to level 2 missions.
Those convoys represent the upper level of NPC shipments by non-pod pilots.
Less valuable NPC convoys are simply dropped because they aren't worth the computing resources needed to render them.
More value convoys are contracted to pod pilots by corporate agents, because if you are going to ship something of value your going to do it using the most secure means available.
So the "solution" to more realistic NPC convoys would be to change current courier missions by increasing the value of goods hauled such that they become more desirable targets to pirates. Increase relative payouts and collateral requirements accordingly, with particular regards to shipments that must pass through low and null sec space.
Basicly I concluded that the logical extension is to improve courier contracts, not alter the extisting NPC Convoys which are already consistant with role play expectations: the valuable targets show up on our sensors, the irrelavant ones are filtered by the ships AI.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 21:42:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: Ruze
I wonder if you read the post all the way through, and if you did, obviously I didn't convey the idea well enough. The concept is to make ACTUAL traffic, to make busy systems with NPCs moving about. The concept is to add NPC's to low-sec and high-sec, to give those who wish to be 'pirates' some good NPC's they can shoot at.
I did read your response, and then followed it through with a fair bit of thought that basicly went like so:
Currently convoys have a value for killing them on par with high sec belt rats: not worth the time if you have access to anything comparable to level 2 missions.
Those convoys represent the upper level of NPC shipments by non-pod pilots.
Less valuable NPC convoys are simply dropped because they aren't worth the computing resources needed to render them.
More value convoys are contracted to pod pilots by corporate agents, because if you are going to ship something of value your going to do it using the most secure means available.
So the "solution" to more realistic NPC convoys would be to change current courier missions by increasing the value of goods hauled such that they become more desirable targets to pirates. Increase relative payouts and collateral requirements accordingly, with particular regards to shipments that must pass through low and null sec space.
Basicly I concluded that the logical extension is to improve courier contracts, not alter the extisting NPC Convoys which are already consistant with role play expectations: the valuable targets show up on our sensors, the irrelavant ones are filtered by the ships AI.
Hmm. I was never wanting the convoys to actually CARRY anything, or to have any other use against the player markets besides something to kill. And the haulers moving through low sec would just be one type of traffic passing between systems.
Though your idea is really interesting, I'm not a huge proponent myself of having NPC's 'work' for us, doing our hauling and etc. It was more a version of rat aligned with an Empire, instead with a pirate group. Rats in low-sec and high-sec 'mining' (but never actually pulling resources, but has some nice pre-mined Omber in their hold or some such), rats in industrials hauling waste and generic resources (that the player could turn in if they wanted), and rats in interceptors transfering paperwork and 'important trade secrets' or some such.
Players would take a nominal sec hit for killing these NPC's, but could collect 'payoffs' for killing them, and in turn gain standing with various pirate groups. They would lose standing with the corporation that the rat belonged to, but again, nominal. And if they captured some of these trade secrets or whatnot, they could be turned in just like tags, but to pirate groups instead of Empire groups.
The other major difference is that they travel through gates, they use asteroid belts, and they dock at stations, just like player carebears do.
Genesis Project |
Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.29 21:58:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Matalino on 29/07/2008 21:58:45
Originally by: Ruze
I was never wanting the convoys to actually CARRY anything, or to have any other use against the player markets besides something to kill. And the haulers moving through low sec would just be one type of traffic passing between systems.
Given the choice players will kill valuable NPC's over pointless ones. If the NPC's don't actually carry anything, offer some other type of reward for killing them or present a threat to players, there is no point rendering them.
Use the excuse of predefined overview filters if you need a role playing reason, but there is simply no point in adding pointless NPC's. Originally by: Ruze
Though your idea is really interesting, I'm not a huge proponent myself of having NPC's 'work' for us, doing our hauling and etc. It was more a version of rat aligned with an Empire, instead with a pirate group. Rats in low-sec and high-sec 'mining' (but never actually pulling resources, but has some nice pre-mined Omber in their hold or some such), rats in industrials hauling waste and generic resources (that the player could turn in if they wanted), and rats in interceptors transfering paperwork and 'important trade secrets' or some such.
There are already hauler spawns in null sec that drop significant quantities of ore, proportional to their rarity and the risk associated with ratting in that security of space.
I suppose they could add hauler spawns to high sec space, but who would really care? I would rather pop a 8K rat and move on to the next belt than pop a rat that drops 80K in ore and need to drag out a hauler to pack it home. There is simply no room in the risk/reward balance to make high sec NPC hauler spawns worth while. Originally by: Ruze
The other major difference is that they travel through gates, they use asteroid belts, and they dock at stations, just like player carebears do.
In reality there is no difference between having the NPC's travel and having the spawn/despawn/respawn. As long as there is reasonable chance of finding NPC's at all three locations, which in my opinion there already is, then there is no mechanical difference between travelling and spawning.
The cluster of rats that just despawned from the belt could be said to have traveled to the gate where a new, similar spawn appeared. When they disappear and a spawn appears near a station they could be said to have jump there, or if they don't spawn near the station, it is just as easy to claim that they have learned to warp into docking range just like we do all the time.
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Imran
Matari Akbar
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Posted - 2008.07.29 22:00:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Imran on 29/07/2008 22:00:41
Originally by: Ruze
Originally by: Imran
I think the issue we need to go back to which is ignored by silly players like the OP and CCP themselves is that we don't need any more innovation...
You need to fix the bloody lag which despite having RL t9 computer parts and seemingly constant upgrading of the proverbial hamsters is still the worst part of this game.
but yeah, npcs bad - fix lag yes.
If 'silly players' would stop trying to run around in 100 man mobs, they wouldn't deal with all that lag. But it's not the PLAYERS fault that they have to push the limits of the system by making the largest battlefleet imaginable. It's the mission runners fault because there are so many NPC's about.
Become a programmer. Fix the lag yourself.
Actually it lags even with 10 people jumping into 10, so please shush. If i was a programmer I would ignore dumb unthoughtful "innovations" like yours and listen to mine which will actually improve the game as a whole for everybody pvper, industrialist and mission runner alike whilst your attempt at a "improvement" will only ****** the game further than the poor state it is in today.
__________________________________________
EwokPoacher: Why hate Gallente?
Blackest Sheep: Because we are beautiful.
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 22:09:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Avon on 29/07/2008 22:09:15
There are already high sec NPC haulers.
They carry trade goods according to the corp station they are based at, and they travel between stations in a system based on the fiction background.
Mostly people leave them alone, even though there is a profit to be made.
I really don't see how expanding that is going to improve the game.
People, in general, do not seem to be interested in it at all.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 22:51:00 -
[44]
First, killing these NPCs would net a reward, but instead of calling it a bounty, I'd call it a payoff or whatnot. Your still getting isk, but it's being paid by pirates instead of CONCORD. Really, a useless distinction, but somebody would get their brain stuck on why CONCORD is paying you to kill good guys.
Second, the 'travel' would largely be to prevent the ruining of general immersion. A spawn you don't take seriously. An NPC that will come through a gate and warp to a gate, that will activate the gate when they get there, who will warp in to a station. Hell, the ship doesn't have to actually COME from anywhere, or go to anywhere in particular. But besides when they are moving away from a gate, I see nothing wrong with them warping to their area.
And to the troll, if your lagging with 10 people, that's hilarious. I feel for you, but it's not the servers or the NPC's fault. Hahahahah ...
Genesis Project |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 22:58:00 -
[45]
I'm getting confuses with my own ideas. I guess you'd have to randomly generate valuable cargo, valuable enough to make ganking an NPC AS profitable as ganking a player. Something to entertain pirates.
Some loot might be modules or minerals. Other loot might involve useless items. Never player crafted or mined, always named or trade goods. Even using some type of tag system to prove to a pirate agent that you've been disrupting business would be nice.
NPC's can't stand in and replace players, but players can't be forced into low-sec if they refuse to PvP. I believe this would make low-sec considerably more profitable than high-sec (helping lure more players out of high-sec space) AND I believe it would add immersion and gameplay for those who prefer criminal lifestyles, where a lack of player targets is common.
Genesis Project |
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 23:52:00 -
[46]
Please answer why people will be interested in this when existing hi-sec npc trade haulers are mostly ignored.
Your suggestion just seems to be the same as the existing mechanic, but using gates too, rather than just station to station route within a system.
Why will people suddenly embrace this when they can already fly to just about any station and do the same thing?
I think you are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
People who want to blow up players are not suddenly going to swtich to killing NPC's, and I don't see them asking for the chance to do so.
I think you are trying to push a different agenda here.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.29 23:57:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Avon
Please answer why people will be interested in this when existing hi-sec npc trade haulers are mostly ignored.
Your suggestion just seems to be the same as the existing mechanic, but using gates too, rather than just station to station route within a system.
Why will people suddenly embrace this when they can already fly to just about any station and do the same thing?
I think you are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
People who want to blow up players are not suddenly going to swtich to killing NPC's, and I don't see them asking for the chance to do so.
I think you are trying to push a different agenda here.
The concept isn't really anything to do with high sec. It's low-sec bait for pirate players. Most who hang in high-sec are not trying to pursue a criminal persuasion. But while the low-sec players are complaining about lack of players to attack, I figured to give them a little to entertain them, provide a profit, AND fit in a roleplay persuasion.
Genesis Project |
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 10:35:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Ruze
The concept isn't really anything to do with high sec. It's low-sec bait for pirate players. Most who hang in high-sec are not trying to pursue a criminal persuasion. But while the low-sec players are complaining about lack of players to attack, I figured to give them a little to entertain them, provide a profit, AND fit in a roleplay persuasion.
Those same haulers exist in low-sec too.
You are avoiding the question.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 11:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Avon
No, what makes Eve great for me is that it is player driven.
Background fluff is all fine an dandy, and then the consequuences of it can be seen ingame it is pretty cool.
I like the background stuff.
I like the Eve universe.
However, it isn't my focus of the game.
I think Eve was built to be a player driven game, and adding NPC's to simulate players isn't really in keeping with that.
Fixed that post for you. Why is it that so many people struggle with the notion that someone else might see EVE differently from the way they do? If it's player driven, then at least one player is saying they'd like more NPCs in. Sounds pretty player-driven to me...
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 12:22:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Ruze
The concept isn't really anything to do with high sec. It's low-sec bait for pirate players. Most who hang in high-sec are not trying to pursue a criminal persuasion. But while the low-sec players are complaining about lack of players to attack, I figured to give them a little to entertain them, provide a profit, AND fit in a roleplay persuasion.
Those same haulers exist in low-sec too.
You are avoiding the question.
And I have answered that question, nearly four times. Your being obtuse and a troll, either because you don't agree with the idea (possible), or because you can't understand the concept (also possible). Continuing to argue your dense counters isn't productive to the discussion anymore.
So if you don't like the idea, you have made your point, please continue on to the next flame. If you don't understand the idea, there's nothing I can do for you, please go back to the game.
Is it sad that I somehow wish the forum jockeys were SMARTER than the average player? maybe that's just unreasonable expectations on my part ;?j
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 14:47:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Ruze
And I have answered that question, nearly four times.
No, you really haven't.
I fully understand your suggestion.
What I am asking is why you think people will be interested in it when pretty much the same thing already exists and is ignored?
NPC haulers already carry trade goods around, and can be killed and looted.
Are you denying that?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 15:48:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Ruze
And I have answered that question, nearly four times.
No, you really haven't.
I fully understand your suggestion.
What I am asking is why you think people will be interested in it when pretty much the same thing already exists and is ignored?
NPC haulers already carry trade goods around, and can be killed and looted.
Are you denying that?
I don't deny they exist. I'm proposing a completely separate system, and you seem dead set on comparing this one concept with the already existing idea, and ignoring any differences I've talked about. I have answered your questions, but with your mindset that 'convoys' is the same as 'traffic', your refusing to accept my answer.
These convoy's carry no real value in their holds, they are rare and often stuck sitting outside a station, they offer no monetary reward for destroying them, and they are 'stupid', like every other NPC in this game. As you yourself have said, they aren't worth killing. They aren't ignored because the people in low-sec don't want to destroy NPCs, they are ignored because they are worthless and offer no challenge.
Traffic, on the other hand, would be made up of numerous types of ships, would have a random roll of coming out with something of real value, could be 'ganked' and raided just like current carebear activities (and thus, the current pirate ship setups would be the same), and would offer a further level of immersion into a criminal characters intent.
Low-sec and 0.0 don't equal 100% PvP content. I'm sure whatever corp your in, if it spends any time in 0.0 or lowsec, hunts rats and runs complexes as a means to make quick isk and get named drops. This would simply add another layer to ratting, but from a criminal perspective. Profitable, fills the niche of the pirate players regarding PvE content, and immersive.
----
Maybe I'm the one who's making an assumption. I guess I'm assuming that the only reason your arguing this, is because you think that pirates are only interested in killing players, and have no interest in killing NPC's. If that is the case, then what I'm trying to point out is that there are plenty of player pirates who do so to be 'criminals', not to be griefers.
Making piracy, or the act of raiding and destroying lawful individuals (and unlawful ones) for wealth and gain, a legitimate profession with even more support from the backstory, seems perfectly reasonable to me. But to be a pirate in the current dynamics, your only targets of any value and worth (i.e. isk rewards and sec hit), are players. And as pirates and griefers have continued to make low-sec their homes over the last few years, they've actually driven business away. This is just to offer a substitute for that clientFle, and hopefully pull more players out of high-sec and into PvP waters with more opportunities to gain wealth and roleplay.
Of course, if your only arguing because you think that anyone who enjoys killing NPC's is a weak nooblet who should be playing WoW instead of trying to ruin YOUR game (because you definitely have more say in it that any other player), then I'd suggest you go outside your home for once, pick a fight with a real human being, because it's 100x the adrenaline kick and it will do much more to assert how tough and strong you are than some kids video game.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Zekleris
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 16:04:00 -
[53]
I like this idea. There are a few NPC haulers around, but in lesser visited star systems, these make the systems look rather empty
Of course, let's hope that if CCP decides to implement something like this, it won't come at the expense of more lag
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 08:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Ruze
Of course, if your only arguing because you think that anyone who enjoys killing NPC's is a weak nooblet who should be playing WoW instead of trying to ruin YOUR game (because you definitely have more say in it that any other player), then I'd suggest you go outside your home for once, pick a fight with a real human being, because it's 100x the adrenaline kick and it will do much more to assert how tough and strong you are than some kids video game.
I think we can safely end any chance of reasonable discussion right there.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Aimel
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 09:22:00 -
[55]
add 500 useless npc at the gates of jita an see what happens
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 13:46:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Aimel
add 500 useless npc at the gates of jita an see what happens
Oi, not Jita. Even I ain't that dumb.
Course if the idea were implemented, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what CCP would do. I still dont' understand why there are agents in Jita.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Torothanax
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 08:50:00 -
[57]
If there were more to do in low sec then just camp gates and look for solo miners/ratters, then maybe more people would venture out there. People who play ONLY to pvp probably wouldn't shoot low sec npc, other people would.
More people in low sec is more targets for play pirates. More player pirates means more anti pirates. Now I know most pirates are wanna-bes, and prefer an easy gank to a real fight, pirate hunters are targets as well.
Give more people more reasons to go to low sec and I bet we'd see more meaningful pvp.
Pew Pew for the win.
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