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CCP, chasing for balance is a fools errand.

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Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.07.30 16:12:00 - [31] Originally by: Gealbhan Edited by: Gealbhan on 30/07/2008 03:35:16 You know it CCP and so does any EvE player with 1/2 a brain. Balance is impossible without a complete, spectrum wide nerf of EvE. There will always be some ship/module or a combination of both that will outclass anything else in its field. There will always be a FOTM regardless of how many times the nerf-bat is swung. One mans nerf is another mans buff and so forth. Instead of nerfing things into uselessness, why not take a step back and re-evaluate the game as a whole. You cannot win the nerf game so why not focus on stability and lag issues in fleet combat. Turn the jits 4/4 station 1800. Invent a new class of frigate or some such. Y'know, things that improve the enjoyment of EvE and not get the communities ass hairs up every time the WoW blow-in whiners think the game is too tough. so, by rthis line of thinking, they should never bother to try to balance. They should just let everything in the game stay as it is right? Nothing is ever wrong and needs fixing because, well, everyone KNOWS balance cannot be achieved. ( and to a point, I agree with you ) but you HAVE to try anyways. Speed had gotten to be the point of stupidness. most people agree. Some do not. Those that do not, will simply never agree with any part of the rebalancing. IMO. It was needed. Though, as usual, I think they went way overboard. But that seems to be a general MMO trend. Nerf hard. buff later.
Donkee Punch	Posted - 2008.07.30 16:52:00 - [32] Lets face it.. the speed nerf HAD to come eventually. The speeds being attained by ships was (and I quote CCP) "ludicrus".... We are not in the movie "Spaceballs" and cannot go to Ludicrus Speed like Dark Helmet. Speed was broken... now it's a bit more inline with the world. The only ones whining about it are the speed freaks who count on their speed to kill with near impunity. But please do keep crying about the speed fix... It's very enjoyable...
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.07.30 17:57:00 - [33] it's a fact of MMO's that there will always be the FOTM setups/strategies and all the min/max players will jump on the bandwagon to get the best possible advantage, considering anything less to be "obsolete". but with nano-ships and such insane speeds, players using such setups and strategies are basically cheating compared to more conventional tactics (ie- impossible to hit them with missiles, etc), and entire classes of ships and weapons become not only "obsolete" but entirely useless. besides, it makes the game really dull when there are only 1 or 2 options to be competitive. when players complain about having spent a large amount of skillpoints and ISK on nanos that are now being nerfed, consider all the other players who spent a similar amount on skillpoints and ISK on other tactics that nanos have rendered useless... of course, i am sure many nano pilots were previously in that same camp before they decided they needed to train nano in order to stay competitive. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
hall monitor	Posted - 2008.07.30 18:25:00 - [34] Originally by: Gealbhan Edited by: Gealbhan on 30/07/2008 03:35:16 Y'know, things that improve the enjoyment of EvE and not get the communities ass hairs up every time the WoW blow-in whiners think the game is too tough. "WOW blow-in whiners?" WTF? I see. Another elitist bag-o-wind thinks the game is all about him. You think you are any less silly that those who play Wow? Think again einstein; you are as silly if not sillier. Thanks!
Ashlee Darksky	Posted - 2008.07.30 18:29:00 - [35] Originally by: Gealbhan Edited by: Gealbhan on 30/07/2008 03:35:16 You know it CCP and so does any EvE player with 1/2 a brain. Balance is impossible without a complete, spectrum wide nerf of EvE. There will always be some ship/module or a combination of both that will outclass anything else in its field. There will always be a FOTM regardless of how many times the nerf-bat is swung. One mans nerf is another mans buff and so forth. Instead of nerfing things into uselessness, why not take a step back and re-evaluate the game as a whole. You cannot win the nerf game so why not focus on stability and lag issues in fleet combat. Turn the jits 4/4 station 1800. Invent a new class of frigate or some such. Y'know, things that improve the enjoyment of EvE and not get the communities ass hairs up every time the WoW blow-in whiners think the game is too tough. Here here! Totally agreed! I would prefer people to THINK their way around a problem, rather than whine about it. If the ship has massive dps, it's tank will probably suck. If the ship has a great tank, the dps will probably suck. If it's nano ishtar, it will totally suck, etc, etc. Think about what you're going up against and then compensate against it. If you keep losing... Change tactics... Duuuh! PS. Burn the WoW blow-in whiners, burn them all! WoW players are the scourge of EVE and should be flagged as such, so they can be easily identified and shot on site --- I see fail everywhere, and it's like they don't even know they're failing ---
IonKnight	Posted - 2008.07.30 18:31:00 - [36] Personally i think most of u don't get the point of why so many ppl are complaining. Here is one simple answer THEY ARE TRYING TO CHANGE TOO MUCH STUFF TOO FAST. By inserting these changes some ships will disappear (mainly i can guess mimi e.g vaga etc) seems kinda unfair to me that there only advantage was speed and now they don't have that. To me just seems like they are trying to sort out the problem by throwing lots of different solutions into one basket. Which in my oponion is probably the most stupid idea i've heard in a while. What annoys me is the fact that it will completely remove one whole section of the game (speed). Yes some ppl might be happy but u can bet that they benefit from it. To be honest im lucky and don't have any nano ships just makes me sad because whats the point in having a ship with just speed if u can't tank anything. Yes there is other options but that shouldn't mean that u should remove one whole race from being good at pvp (yes there are exceptions but mimi used to equal speed tank ( yes there are other ships thatt will suffer but none as much as mimi i think). But hey i just think CPP are trying to kill a fly with a nuke, yes the fly is dead but then so is everyone else.
Salvar Ar'adim State Property	Posted - 2008.07.30 18:41:00 - [37] Balance itself is not a bad thing, however making the game homogeneous is. ______ Salvar Ar'Adim [RLLUP]State Property Originally by: CCP Wrangler Get Chribba to publically denounce Veldspar, then we can start discussing winning EVE...
KISOGOKU	Posted - 2008.07.30 18:48:00 - [38] Do you know why ?because CCP gave too much stuff at once ;rigs ,techII speed mods ,boosters all at one patch .Dev gave dev took http://www.eve-online.com/features/revelations/ Originally by: IonKnight Here is one simple answer THEY ARE TRYING TO CHANGE TOO MUCH STUFF TOO FAST.
Troyd23	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:19:00 - [39] Edited by: Troyd23 on 30/07/2008 19:19:27 Originally by: Drake Arson I completly an wholeheartedly agree. I'm almost positive those who complain most these days are EX. Wow players. EVE is not wow. hello Kitty, That way ----------------> A good chunk of my corp are Ex WoW players, lol. Granted i'm an "older" player in a "newer" corp. But it does Seem like there is a migration or something happening.
IonKnight	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:21:00 - [40] yea that was very silly (mind u the game did need filling out). but don't u think its better that certain items are overpowered and slowly one by one they are sorted. Instead of nerfing them all at once and making them the game alot less balanced than it was before. The thing that gets on my nerve the most is that Hacks will become useless overnight. Why bother usinga hack when a bc can kick ur ass. Also i know some ppl will flame me for saying this but then i think missiles are overpowered what other weapon type is able to hit without fail (this will be more the case after the patch as not many ppl are going to be going over the magical 4k)

Beardponderer You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:28:00 - [41] There is another way in which to counter nano's that you are forgetting about. Scorch. Lot's and lot's of scorch. <3 Amarr lazorz
Ashlee Darksky	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:29:00 - [42] Originally by: IonKnight yea that was very silly (mind u the game did need filling out). but don't u think its better that certain items are overpowered and slowly one by one they are sorted. Instead of nerfing them all at once and making them the game alot less balanced than it was before. The thing that gets on my nerve the most is that Hacks will become useless overnight. Why bother usinga hack when a bc can kick ur ass. Also i know some ppl will flame me for saying this but then i think missiles are overpowered what other weapon type is able to hit without fail (this will be more the case after the patch as not many ppl are going to be going over the magical 4k) Not flaming, but.... Missles don't always hit without fail, they have an explosion velocity and a flight time. This is pretty similar (in consequence) to a turrets tracking speed and distance. If the ship is small or fast the missile will fail to do much (if any) damage at all. --- I see fail everywhere, and it's like they don't even know they're failing ---
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:38:00 - [43] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Matalino Originally by: Gealbhan There will always be some ship/module or a combination of both that will outclass anything else in its field. There will always be a FOTM regardless of how many times the nerf-bat is swung. But should the FOTM ever change or should we establish a never changing I-Win setup? Well, when skills that take weeks to train are now pretty much sub par, I'd say I'd like to see some consistency. Like the guy sad, ADD things to EVE. Don't just strip everything out of the game. Yea, NO-ONE told you not to train FOTM, they all said go go go nano bandwagon! And training some navigation skills is hardly a loss, what uselss training do you speak of? Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Ion Knight	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:39:00 - [44] Edited by: Ion Knight on 30/07/2008 19:42:49 Edited by: Ion Knight on 30/07/2008 19:40:31 Ok Ashlee ill answer that question ................... Not flaming, but.... Missles don't always hit without fail, they have an explosion velocity and a flight time. This is pretty similar (in consequence) to a turrets tracking speed and distance. If the ship is small or fast the missile will fail to do much (if any) damage at all. ................... Well firstly how is this like turrets ? is a turret able to hit at 70 km away but also hit at to 1cm away. Simple fact is flight time has no effect at all (unless u talk solely about nano ships). However explosion radius means that they will barely miss (sorry should of said never miss but u get the point) no other weapon type is able to be so consistent. Also sig radius effects everyone not just missiles
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Gealbhan Turn the jits 4/4 station 1800. So you want them to spin the station around 5 times? On a serious note I wish people who don't have a clue about video game coding (or coding in general) and the amount of time one puts in to accomlish things like EvE wouldn't ***** and moan about every little aspect. As for lag I wish people would learn about the interwebs, communications, and networking before running their mouth. Most of all I wish people would could crying about whiners getting 'their way' with a 'nerf' then go on to complain about their own OP item they can't deal with. Either let the professional's deal with it with their hours of coding, staff meetings, simulations, and feedback or build your own damn game.
IonKnight	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:55:00 - [46] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Edited by: Micheal Dietrich on 30/07/2008 19:47:58 Originally by: Gealbhan Turn the jits 4/4 station 1800. So you want them to spin the station around 5 times? On a serious note I wish people who don't have a clue about video game coding (or coding in general) and the amount of time one puts in to accomplish things like EvE wouldn't ***** and moan about every little aspect. As for lag I wish people would learn about the interwebs, communications, and networking before running their mouth. Most of all I wish people would quit crying about whiners getting 'their way' with a 'nerf' then go on to complain about their own OP item they can't deal with. Either let the professional's deal with it with their hours of coding, staff meetings, simulations, and feedback or build your own damn game. Well Michael most of what ppl have been saying can be easily accomplished (creating new ships is not one of them). However tweeking a few variable doesn't take long at all. However then i think CCP has the right idea trying to sort out nano but are just doing it in a too drastic a fashion (personnally i would prefer CCP to make small tweeks but have to change it twice then do a drastic change but only do it once.)
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:58:00 - [47] balance is overrated. really. all those games that fall apart because everyone is playing the exact same build/deck/setup, don't look at those. we, the loudest whiniest 1% of 1% of the player base know better. ignore the data, ignore the programmers, ignore the design goals, it's all about us. wtb black lotus / channel / fireball. - -
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:16:00 - [48] Originally by: IonKnight Well Michael most of what ppl have been saying can be easily accomplished (creating new ships is not one of them). However tweeking a few variable doesn't take long at all. However then i think CCP has the right idea trying to sort out nano but are just doing it in a too drastic a fashion (personnally i would prefer CCP to make small tweeks but have to change it twice then do a drastic change but only do it once.) This isn't just about nano. What'd we have before this? Torp 'nerf'? Laser changes? Ship redesigns? They're all the same and all these people do is cry about it because it affects them personally. Lag is a constant in every game and people just don't understand that there just isn't some big machine that would cure the problem. They don't think about the thousands of miles (or km) of cabling that your data runs through, they don't think of the hundreds of servers it passes through. They certainly don't seem to realize that their own machine contributes to the lag factor and I/O speed. I remember a couple years ago a dev had a great quote: No matter what we do, we are always at the bottom of the shit pile. It is physically impossible to please 100% of the customer base.
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:35:00 - [49] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I remember a couple years ago a dev had a great quote: No matter what we do, we are always at the bottom of the shit pile. It is physically impossible to please 100% of the customer base. my favorite one was the angry hate thread cause CCP provided optional patches to deal with memory issues that happen to some power users. people were seriously complaining for being given an optional way to set up their own clients. people complain, that's just what they do. - -
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:43:00 - [50] Originally by: IonKnight Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Edited by: Micheal Dietrich on 30/07/2008 19:47:58 Originally by: Gealbhan Turn the jits 4/4 station 1800. So you want them to spin the station around 5 times? On a serious note I wish people who don't have a clue about video game coding (or coding in general) and the amount of time one puts in to accomplish things like EvE wouldn't ***** and moan about every little aspect. As for lag I wish people would learn about the interwebs, communications, and networking before running their mouth. Most of all I wish people would quit crying about whiners getting 'their way' with a 'nerf' then go on to complain about their own OP item they can't deal with. Either let the professional's deal with it with their hours of coding, staff meetings, simulations, and feedback or build your own damn game. Well Michael most of what ppl have been saying can be easily accomplished (creating new ships is not one of them). However tweeking a few variable doesn't take long at all. However then i think CCP has the right idea trying to sort out nano but are just doing it in a too drastic a fashion (personnally i would prefer CCP to make small tweeks but have to change it twice then do a drastic change but only do it once.) Fixing one or two aspects of this problem and leaving the rest go would be shoddy work in this case. Several game mechanics need to be looked at, changed, and balanced at the same time if the final solution is going to be a good one. Putting bandaids here and there has been tried before, and never worked out well. And really, those little tweaks and adjustments require a great deal of thought, planning, and insight. If you have never designed or modded a game, you have no idea.

KISOGOKU	Posted - 2008.07.30 21:13:00 - [51] No HACs will not be useless a HAC is can throw serious pain any sub-capital ship,nano fitted HACs sure it is why is the nerf . Im playing more than 2.5 years and i dont feel less taken care with this nerf ,actually opposite About missiles 70km vs 1 cm , missiles need fligt time turrets have instant damage good luck to keeping someone at 70km away until missiles arrive . HAC vs BC = skills talk ,it was always like this and it will be always like this . May i refer you to this thread http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=835136 ''I run 2 accounts 1 a Gali spec'd Caldari Achura Inventor on his way to a nano Ishtar. My second account is a mini spec'd caldari achura inventor. He was destined for vegas/Rapier/Huggins.'' You know if a new player training both accounts for nano ships alot of things are broken Originally by: IonKnight The thing that gets on my nerve the most is that Hacks will become useless overnight. Why bother usinga hack when a bc can kick ur ass. The simple reason is because less and less MMO are taking care of there long term players and more on the new players.
KISOGOKU	Posted - 2008.07.30 21:32:00 - [52] Edited by: KISOGOKU on 30/07/2008 21:33:56 QFT , Current speed problem is combination of rigs/speed mods/mwds/gang bonuses/implants/boosters/heat you cant fix problem with only one of them.CCP tried it at march 2007 one rig removed from game and speed mods nerfed/changed but we still have nano problem Originally by: Ranger 1 Fixing one or two aspects of this problem and leaving the rest go would be shoddy work in this case. Several game mechanics need to be looked at, changed, and balanced at the same time if the final solution is going to be a good one. Putting bandaids here and there has been tried before, and never worked out well.
Karash Amerius Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.07.30 22:09:00 - [53] If you have to fit a MWD to most (if not all) viable PVP fit ships regardless of class, something is broken within the game design. Now, if that sort of logic ring no truths to you...well, take a logic class? ____________________________________________ "Fighting Broke" - An Ex-Merc Blog


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