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7317	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:58:00 - [1] Ok. I began EVE with my one and only Minmatar character. Starting with the classic Rifter, then Rupture and finally Hurricane. Now that i can fit a Hurricane fully T2, i began searching for a new minmatar ship to train for. Unfortunately i found out some disturbing facts: Go for battleships! - Large Projectiles suck Go for HACs. Vagabond is cool afterall right? - Nay! All nano ships will be nerfed to hell in the next patch Be a stealthy guy, use a recon ship; - Oh, i forgot, statis webifiers are gonna get nerfed too. So, after analyzing all the changes with the upcoming patch, i could only find "one" (1) Minmatar ship efficient enough to use. The Rifter and it's variants. Thats all. I'll start training Gallente ships tomorrow
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:00:00 - [2] I recommend you go Amarr or Caldari. They're going to be the bomb more than ever after all the ships that go over 2k get de-nutted. G -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
7317	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:08:00 - [3] Probably amarr then, with all the armor tanking skills i have. Returning to the topic; Give minmatar some love!
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:12:00 - [4] I always ask anyone who complains about their race this; "Did you tell amarr to -adapt or die- or some similar -amarr is fine- in the past years?" More then often shuts up a few individuals My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Buff Plankchest Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:14:00 - [5] Get a Sleipnir! MAssive tank, massive DPS
Guillame Herschel Gallente Buffalo Soldiers	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:15:00 - [6] What a ridiculous troll. No one who actually flies those ships are worried about the upcoming changes. Stasis webifiers will still be just as nerfed when equipped to Gallente ships, only they won't have 40km range. And Minmatar ships will still go faster than equivalent ships of their class, for the most part, just like they do now. *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**
Buff Plankchest Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Guillame Herschel What a ridiculous troll. No one who actually flies those ships are worried about the upcoming changes. Stasis webifiers will still be just as nerfed when equipped to Gallente ships, only they won't have 40km range. And Minmatar ships will still go faster than equivalent ships of their class, for the most part, just like they do now. Psssst... minmatar recons have bonus to web, gallente are scrams
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:19:00 - [8] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 30/07/2008 20:19:16 Recognized the OP as a troll from the line "projectiles suck" tbh. Godly falloff, high ROF, no cap use, best alpha for artillery, best tracking for AC. I mean come on.
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:19:00 - [9] i'll give you a hint, there's a reason why minmatar don't have much in the way of passive shield bonuses. it has to do with cap and their weapons. - -
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:23:00 - [10] Originally by: Buff Plankchest Originally by: Guillame Herschel What a ridiculous troll. No one who actually flies those ships are worried about the upcoming changes. Stasis webifiers will still be just as nerfed when equipped to Gallente ships, only they won't have 40km range. And Minmatar ships will still go faster than equivalent ships of their class, for the most part, just like they do now. Psssst... minmatar recons have bonus to web, gallente are scrams Way to miss his point. His point was that the webs are getting nerfed, NOT the Minmatar Recons. So, if you put a web on a Lachesis, it'll STILL be half as effective as it used to be. But if you put that same web on a Huginn, it'll be half as effective as it used to be AND have a crazy long range. Webs are nerfed across the board, the Minnie Recons and EAF aren't - the range bonus was their strength and they still have it. Double webbing something will still bring them to a slow enough speed for an MWD'ing battleship to close in on them (or any other ship for that matter). And all of you seem to be ignoring Nozh's statement that they are aware that the changes to webs will effect the role of Minnie Recons and EAF and will look at a fix to bring these ships back in line with their current effectiveness before any nano nerf goes live on TQ (whether that happens or not remains to be seen, but you guys are yelling about the sky falling down around Minnie Recon/EAF pilots a bit prematurely). Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:24:00 - [11] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 30/07/2008 20:19:16 Recognized the OP as a troll from the line "projectiles suck" tbh. Godly falloff, high ROF, no cap use, best alpha for artillery, best tracking for AC. I mean come on. I have no gripe with my autocannons, but I thought people said pulse lasers had best tracking and others say it's blasters with best tracking... I haven't cross-trained anything, so idk. Do AC's really have best tracking compared to their laser and hybrid equivalents? Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Segrams	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:25:00 - [12] if youre gonna be around a bit, train the gimpy race. it'll be back on top after a while. when i started i thought amarr had the sexy lookin boats but i got talked out of it. wouldnt say i made a bad decision but nobody is going to discourage you from training amarr now. $.02
7317	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:26:00 - [13] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 30/07/2008 20:19:16 Recognized the OP as a troll from the line "projectiles suck" tbh. Godly falloff, high ROF, no cap use, best alpha for artillery, best tracking for AC. I mean come on. Godly falloff? Meaning you will never do as much dps as your fitting tool says. You'll always fight in falloff. No cap use is penalized with no passive tank bonuses to any minmatarship and i must add that generally all minmatar ships have lesser capacitator capacity than other ships. Chosing damage type? this doesn't count for elite ammos and changing damage type in the middle of a combat costs you 10 secs of dps.
Heinkel facility Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:39:00 - [14] Originally by: 7317 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 30/07/2008 20:19:16 Recognized the OP as a troll from the line "projectiles suck" tbh. Godly falloff, high ROF, no cap use, best alpha for artillery, best tracking for AC. I mean come on. Godly falloff? Meaning you will never do as much dps as your fitting tool says. You'll always fight in falloff. No cap use is penalized with no passive tank bonuses to any minmatarship and i must add that generally all minmatar ships have lesser capacitator capacity than other ships. Chosing damage type? this doesn't count for elite ammos and changing damage type in the middle of a combat costs you 10 secs of dps. You can change your ammo when your current load is empty. Minmatar has godly tanking VS amarr (92.5% EM and 85% Thermal or something). And you know what? Adapt or DIE! It's about time Amarr finally starts rising from the ashes of ner***e (I blame TomB, he was the one who nerfed Amarr so much while claiming Amarr are the coolest)
VoiceInTheDesert Gallente ANGELS SIX HIGH	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:39:00 - [15] I'm sure the Huggin and the Rapier are going to be given a boost of web strength if the web patch thing goes through. Even without it though, webbing from that far away is still really useful....Both are still very viable ships. Typhoon is really good. Works the same role as a Domi with almost identical stats. If you're putting guns on it, you're doing it wrong. I'm not convinced that HACs are going away. They are no longer solopwnmobiles, but they are still nice ships with definite advantages against certain ships and setups (just like every other ship in the game....can't be good against everything....not any more anyway). The Mimmy CS's are also very nice. Sleip is the best CS in the game, hands down. Tanks like a Vulture, shoots like an Astarte on steroids. Your t2 hurri skills will serve you well in one of these. Your caps suck though, so for future training, cross over to Cladari or (better option) Gallente.
Ron Bacardi Caldari SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:44:00 - [16] Hell, why not make all races EXACTLY the same!?!?! Face it, some are good or excel at some things that others wont. Minmatar will still have a speed advantage over all other races after the patch (assuming the patch stays the same). I'm starting to think all these whine threads are created by one guy with a multiple personality disorder......and each personality has multiple accounts with alts
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:45:00 - [17] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 30/07/2008 20:19:16 Recognized the OP as a troll from the line "projectiles suck" tbh. Godly falloff, high ROF, no cap use, best alpha for artillery, best tracking for AC. I mean come on. I have no gripe with my autocannons, but I thought people said pulse lasers had best tracking and others say it's blasters with best tracking... I haven't cross-trained anything, so idk. Do AC's really have best tracking compared to their laser and hybrid equivalents? Tracking efficiency: 1. AC's 2. Pulse Lasers 3. Blasters 4. Railguns 5. Beam Lasers 6. Artillery
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:55:00 - [18] Edited by: Black Scorpio on 30/07/2008 20:55:27 Originally by: 7317 Probably amarr then, with all the armor tanking skills i have. Returning to the topic; Give minmatar some love! You mean all 2 of them, and the 4 for passive?.. yeah... Also stop whining like a little beoutch. Train for your Command ships if that's bugging you. They're pretty good. Also the Typhoon and the Mael are pretty good ships. What's your problem? The fact that the nanos are nerfed a bit doesn't mean your ships aren't fastest than anyone else. Also the web is still pretty good, i suggest you fit 2x, even 3x on your recons if web is all you want, and you're good. As if the other recons don't fit multiple mods of whatever they specialize in. What's your problem again with minmatar ships?
Trojanman190 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.30 21:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Sheriff Jones I always ask anyone who complains about their race this; "Did you tell amarr to -adapt or die- or some similar -amarr is fine- in the past years?" More then often shuts up a few individuals Actually plenty of us realized how obscenely fail the amar were and campaigned to help out. The only reason people said "Adapt or Die" is because ccp took two ****ing years to do anything about the amar issue. If they didn't adapt, they literally died. Minmatar pilots are already adapting because we have to if we want to keep playing the game. But that does not mean you should stop looking into how to fix a race. I liked minmatar ships.. they look cool and used to fly cool. They are just inferior right now and winning is a lot more fun than losing. Hence why I am adapting. There are plenty of threads talking about the minmatar issues but just to refresh your mind about the amar issues.... When you whined about your lasers having shitty damage types people reminded you that you had insane optimal ranges on pulse. People also reminded you that you did not have to reload and could switch ammo instantly. When you complained about your cap problems people said that you had plenty of lows and cap bonuses to offset this. The vast majority of people coming up with those arguements NEVER played amar. So they had no idea how absolutely awful the race was. Not to mention buffer tanks were not all that important two years ago... So, I fly minmatar ships. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to minmatar ships. 1. Capless guns - the vast majority of the time it means I'm sitting around with full cap. If for some reason it gets low, I cap inject. Everybody does that. 2. Damage types - Our ammo types dont even offer 100% damage changes like missiles do. You get a bit of kinetic here, a bit of thermal here and maybe some explosive. EMP, our main close range ammo is almost a 50/50 split between em and explosive, so no matter what tank you are shooting at, the ammo type SUCKS. Also, switching ammo types is something you can only do before a battle, otherwise you get to lose 10 seconds of a fight while you reload. Not to mention the fact that having cap boosters + 10 different ammo types is impossible. You might be able to cover all damage types but none of your guns could ever reload that type AND you would have to cut cap boosters. In reality, you load barrage and some other close range ammo or two. You use barrage at range and whatever the other ammo was at close range. Switching damage types is crap due to space requirements and reload time. 3. High Falloff. - Inside of optimal your shots always hit a stationary target. Once you get into falloff your chance to hit slowly decreases so that at optimal + falloff you are doing 50% of your dps. So if a tempest manages 500 dps at 1km with barrage, that same tempest will get 250dps at 35km. Fighting in falloff is an absolute joke. (and there is only one type of barrage for you damage type switchers). Our guns already have crap dps that is made awful by our high falloff. Even worse, we don't have hte speed to keep range nor do we have the tank to stay up close. 4. Utlity Slots - Tempest gets ONE utility mid and TWO utility highs. Rejoice. ECM, DAMPS, Tracking Computers, Sensor Boosters, Webs (soon), Nos, all nerfed. The mid slot really isnt much of a 'utility' slot but more of a 'wtf do I put here' slot. Sometimes having ECCM is nice but that isnt exactly hard to predict. Also, raven gets two utility slots, mega gets 1, dom gets plenty (475 dps BEFORE you use guns), apoc gets one... its not really a big deal to get one more extra high considering how badly the rest of the ship sucks. 5. Speed - Just got nerfed to hell and wasnt viable for the battleships before the nerf. OMG, YOU GO 20m/s FASTER THAN ME! OVERPOWERED!!!!!! I honestly sometimes wish the tempest's base speed was nerfed so that my arty could hit while I align out...
Trojanman190 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.30 21:08:00 - [20] Edited by: Trojanman190 on 30/07/2008 21:11:34 It sucks that when sniping with the tempest I have guns with the WORST tracking and optimal but my ship has the highest warp out velocity. Bad tracking + high transversal = F41L And for you alpha strike noobs out there... High damage apoc fits with only SEVEN guns fitted gets 2500 per volley. Tempest with 6 guns gets almost 3400. Yes, the alpha is so insanely high... Mealstrom barely get any better. Minmatar battleships have problems. Lots of them. I don't see how it can be said that they are 'perfectly fine' or 'balanced' by anyone who has actually trained the race up to the battleship level.
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.30 21:31:00 - [21] okay, a bit of a makeover here, I've gone ahead and EFT-warriored a probable Tempest snipe setup and compared it with my own TachPoc, at lvl4 skills, just to give the Minnie a chance. Setups: My skills (lvl4, no lvl5 bullshit) [Apocalypse, Sniper] Reactor Control Unit I Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Capacitor Power Relay II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] 378 DPS, 2311 Alpha strike, tracking at 0.00752 197.18km lock range, 114mm scan res 16.4s align, 144 m/s Compared to a hypothetical ArtyPest: [Tempest, Sniper] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] 309 DPS, 3475 Alpha strike, tracking at 0.00504 190.18km lock range, 200mm scan res 15.3 sec align time, 175m/s As far as I can tell, the only weakness arty weapons have at range is tracking, compared to tach's that is. Also, because the Apoc has a DCU II on, its EHP is a bit higher, but still is paper-thin. with Lvl4 sanely-trained skills on the Tempest, I see it as slightly weaker, but not completely broken. -
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.07.30 21:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Trojanman190 Edited by: Trojanman190 on 30/07/2008 21:11:34 It sucks that when sniping with the tempest I have guns with the WORST tracking and optimal but my ship has the highest warp out velocity. Bad tracking + high transversal = F41L And for you alpha strike noobs out there... High damage apoc fits with only SEVEN guns fitted gets 2500 per volley. Tempest with 6 guns gets almost 3400. Yes, the alpha is so insanely high... Mealstrom barely get any better. Minmatar battleships have problems. Lots of them. I don't see how it can be said that they are 'perfectly fine' or 'balanced' by anyone who has actually trained the race up to the battleship level. Agreed. Minmatar Battleships have a gooood portion of problems. To be perfectly honest- the only one I ever choosen to fly into pvp was the typhoon, and that ship takes crapton of SP to make effective.- Which I am only sitting on 12.5mill sp... yay a whole nother 30mill sp to go... yay... Also agree with that Minmatar are always adapting. They just seem like the ghetto race of EvE tbqfh. I will admit it though, it just seems when the announcement of the patch hit, that I spent 2 months training for a Rapier/Huginn for positively nothing. But I've been playing around with fits and it seems I can still make the rapier work as a solo ship ^^, I prefer to fly solo as the Blobing in this game is just getting lol tbqh. As I said before ^^ Completely Agree with that is posted.
hedfunk Caldari Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.07.30 21:41:00 - [23] Cown seems to do quite well in these terrible minnie BS'!
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned Dark Trinity Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.30 21:44:00 - [24] To the op you can fly a Sleipnir, it's a nice ship to have. The Broadsword is also worth training for. The biggest problem with large artillery is the "clip size" it has a low amount of shots before you have to reload it takes a long time to reload your guns and in laggy fleet fights it can be impossible to get them to re-activate them, which makes Tempest really suck for fleet fights.
Dihania Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.30 21:57:00 - [25] minnie before patch: * fastest race * recons with web range bonus minnie after patch: * fastest race * recons with web range bonus ----------------------------------- caldari before patch: * slowest race * missiles hit for lol damage caldari after patch: * slowest race * missiles hit ----------------------------------- gallente before patch: * blasters at point blank * drones * little use for recons gallente after patch: * blasters at point blank * drones * favor of the month recons ----------------------------------- amarr before patch: * good hac, recons, bs amarr after patch: * good hac, recons, bs Eve enters the AF age. Sniping age. The Armageddon. [hrhr] Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.07.30 21:58:00 - [26] I blame institutionalized racism.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.30 22:13:00 - [27] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Tracking efficiency: 1. AC's 2. Pulse Lasers 3. Blasters 4. Railguns 5. Beam Lasers 6. Artillery Actually, it's ACs, blasters then pulses. Provided you don't compare the highest tier - Large neutrons outtrack 800s (marginally! but it's there and illustrates how ACs don't outtrack blasters as much as people believe), medium neutrons get out-tracked by 425s after 3-4 decimal places and small neutrons outtrack 200s (by a small but noticeable margin). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
GallenteCitizen20080615 Gallente Federation War News	Posted - 2008.07.30 22:17:00 - [28] here a good hint train up missiles and hit the lachesis espically with people at the start of the patch still flying nanos you will get a few very easy OMG BBQkills because people are relunct to change and see if they can get away with it my corp in allaince already has set up to counter what we believe to be the next FOTM, we still have the same nano counters. also good pipes around our area which have a lot of nano activity ..... he who plans wins Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are pleased to aim! Or was that the other way around?
Rexthor Hammerfists The Movement	Posted - 2008.07.30 22:27:00 - [29] This sucks is said pretty damn fast on these forums, Minmatar doesnt suck and large projectiles dont suck. They are outperformed in many situations by other ships, but they get the job done - a fleetfitted tempest or a closerange fitted typhoon/Maelstrom can work very well. You see alot of this ship does X more dps then that one, but especially in small skrimishes what matters is your piloting skills, from choosing your targets to actually fighting, you will be satisfied with the minm bs if you get to know how to fly them. This tho doesnt mean that Large projectiles are behind other weapons, its far from sucking tho. - Any good reason for gateguns shooting drones and thus removing dronebased ships from pirating?
Pelagiad Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.07.30 23:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Guillame Herschel What a ridiculous troll. No one who actually flies those ships are worried about the upcoming changes. Stasis webifiers will still be just as nerfed when equipped to Gallente ships, only they won't have 40km range. And Minmatar ships will still go faster than equivalent ships of their class, for the most part, just like they do now. So you are saying that the Sensor Damp changes affected everyone the same, it didn't hurt a specialized ship like say the Gall recon ships more? is that what you are saying?

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