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Open letter to CCP - a serious response to the nano changes

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Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2008.07.31 11:52:00 - [1] CCP I`ve read the dev blog, i`ve thought about your proposals and i believe i understand the frame of mind in which these ideas were thought out. I have played this game since the very beginning, i have seen all expansions and just about all the patches. I`ve played the game since there was no stacking and frigates fielded cruise missiles and battleships fitted 5x MWDs. I was there before "orbit" and indeed suggested it to CCP myself. I believe that EVE today is caught in a limbo somewhere between tech II and tech III. Caught in a move in which "heat" and "combat boosters" are to be the next great thing in combat. As features central to tech III have been unleashed before the tech branch itself, we have a situation in wich non-stacking bonuses create the speeds you state to be insane- and a change is required or when tech III is introduced things will really get "insane". I do however believe that you are in your changes also contemplating a sad mistake based on dangerous misconceptions. I am of course talking about "nano". (I have previously written about nano tactics which can be viewed following this Link) I will in the following, where necessary use terms presented in that post. "Nano" constitutes a space that is ill-defined and poorly understood. As a consequence any intervention can never be based on anything but lack of understanding, which in it`s furthest consequence can be detrimental. There is no clear definition of what constitutes a "nano" ship- frequently people believe a ship is "nano" as long as it has some speed increasing modules on it and just as frequently turn to ships flying 15km/s to depict a ruinous fault in the game. As i have previously stated, the game has 3 speeds: "max", "orbit" and "heated". The latter includes combat boosters and refers to temporary effects. In addition there are the gang bonuses which I`ll get back to. The 15km/s ship relying on temporary effects will have a "max" speed somewhere around 9-10km/s and it`s "orbit" speed will be around 5-6km/s. The going mantra is that you need a ship flying 10km/s or faster to engage a 10km/s ship- nothing could be further from the truth- as i stated in the link above. This belief is thuroughly based on a lack of understanding of game mechanics and "nano" tactics. I have previously defined "nano" as constituting ships flying at "max" speeds above 4.5km/s and this definition precludes 90% of the current so-called "nano" population. I use this speed because it is the speed required to effectively escape drones and missiles when entering "orbit" which speeds are significantly lower then "max", but "max" will and should always be the speed to which all others are compared. However it becomes dangerous when "max" speed is used to portray a reality in other situations in which it is not valid. It also becomes extremely dangerous when "heat/booster" speeds are referenced in a manner such as to cause confusion about what is "max" and what is a temporary effect. I believe you are doing the same mistake you did when announcing a nerf to carriers, only this mistake is much greater. I see both mistakes as a possible indication of GMs and developers having less intimate knowledge of game mechanics then they had only 2 years ago. I see CCP relying in both cases on players with even less understanding of the mechanics they are discussing. I believe EVE has evolved. I believe speed and the advanced gamestyle in it`s wake has been refreshing to eve and while some adaptations towards tech III are required and while extreme effects such as a Machariel doing 18km/s should be curtailed, the function and purpose of "nano" is valid and should not be removed. -concluded in the next part-
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:05:00 - [2] Edited by: Baudolino on 31/07/2008 12:06:01 Today the players of eve are playing two different games. There are those i call "Starcraft" gamers and those whom i call "Total Annihilation" players. The former being the old "tank" and "gank" style of eve combat and the latter being the fast paced tactically demanding game the rest are playing. Curtailing speed to the degree you are contemplating will relegate eve back to slow moving days of tank and gank where the battleships were kings and not fleet weapons, gate campers and PvE platforms as they are mostly used today. That the "starcraft" gamers have issues and that "nano" is poorly understood, is a poor reason for removing an enire game feature. Look into temporary effects and limit skirmish warfare bonuses to small gangs (5 or less)- and in addition maybe reduce the gang effect slightly. But apapreciate that any "nano" debate is derailed by misconceptions and needs a proper framing before relying on playerbase objections. I hope you take speed into a broader consideration, rather then curtailing speed in general. Sincerely Baudolino
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:10:00 - [3] You have it the wrong way around. Nano noobs are 'Starcraft', 'traditional' players (everyone else) are 'Total Annihilation' players who are intent on playing the game with it's full range of ships and weapons fully operational. If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Pheonix Kanan Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:12:00 - [4] Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 31/07/2008 12:15:26 I agree with you entirely. Unfortunately, as I have stated to many fellow eve players, CCP has a past history of over-nerfing (Nos, Damps, Carriers, for example). And there current eve community of a vocal minority is not helping the situation. Average nano pilots do not own snakes, not even low grade ones. Yet CCP based at lot of the nerfs on a vagabond with a HG snake set. (Before I get into a rant) It's kind of sad to CCP do something so detrimental, but alas. As PVP'ers, it's kind of our choosen lifestyle to have to always change tactics when a carebear loses his Rail-Raven to a smarter player -----
Wil Smithx	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:14:00 - [5] ARGH WORDS!!!
Pheonix Kanan Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:15:00 - [6] Originally by: Bellum Eternus You have it the wrong way around. Nano noobs are 'Starcraft', 'traditional' players (everyone else) are 'Total Annihilation' players who are intent on playing the game with it's full range of ships and weapons fully operational. If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. Your HG snake set is a small percentage of nano pilots. And I have seen plenty of Vagas, Sacs, Ishtars, and Zealots (even with HG snakes) killed like any other ship. They are not invincible. It just takes, like every engagement should take, a plan. -----
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:20:00 - [7] Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 31/07/2008 12:17:46 Originally by: Bellum Eternus You have it the wrong way around. Nano noobs are 'Starcraft', 'traditional' players (everyone else) are 'Total Annihilation' players who are intent on playing the game with it's full range of ships and weapons fully operational. If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. Your HG snake set is a small percentage of nano pilots. And I have seen plenty of Vagas, Sacs, Ishtars, and Zealots (even with HG snakes) killed like any other ship. They are not invincible. It just takes, like every engagement should take, a plan. Edit: I have seen plenty of other ships flying around eve that are not nano ships. I've even seen nano ships not being flown as nano ships. It's a choice. People just tend to gravitate towards what others are doing, which is why you see so many nano ships. So you can fly the full range of ships, you just choose not to. I'm on the same set of HG Snakes for over two years now. What is that telling you? Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Bloody Love	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:33:00 - [8] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 31/07/2008 12:17:46 Originally by: Bellum Eternus You have it the wrong way around. Nano noobs are 'Starcraft', 'traditional' players (everyone else) are 'Total Annihilation' players who are intent on playing the game with it's full range of ships and weapons fully operational. If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. Your HG snake set is a small percentage of nano pilots. And I have seen plenty of Vagas, Sacs, Ishtars, and Zealots (even with HG snakes) killed like any other ship. They are not invincible. It just takes, like every engagement should take, a plan. Edit: I have seen plenty of other ships flying around eve that are not nano ships. I've even seen nano ships not being flown as nano ships. It's a choice. People just tend to gravitate towards what others are doing, which is why you see so many nano ships. So you can fly the full range of ships, you just choose not to. I'm on the same set of HG Snakes for over two years now. What is that telling you? You haven't flown your nano in over two years now?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:36:00 - [9] Originally by: Bloody Love Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 31/07/2008 12:17:46 Originally by: Bellum Eternus You have it the wrong way around. Nano noobs are 'Starcraft', 'traditional' players (everyone else) are 'Total Annihilation' players who are intent on playing the game with it's full range of ships and weapons fully operational. If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. Your HG snake set is a small percentage of nano pilots. And I have seen plenty of Vagas, Sacs, Ishtars, and Zealots (even with HG snakes) killed like any other ship. They are not invincible. It just takes, like every engagement should take, a plan. Edit: I have seen plenty of other ships flying around eve that are not nano ships. I've even seen nano ships not being flown as nano ships. It's a choice. People just tend to gravitate towards what others are doing, which is why you see so many nano ships. So you can fly the full range of ships, you just choose not to. I'm on the same set of HG Snakes for over two years now. What is that telling you? You haven't flown your nano in over two years now? Or maybe 14k/sec is broken? Hell, even 5.5k/sec is broken. And this is coming from someone who flies nano ships. Not because I like it, but because I have to since that's all there is. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:42:00 - [10] Originally by: Baudolino I do however believe that you are in your changes also contemplating a sad mistake based on dangerous misconceptions. I am of course talking about "nano". (I have previously written about nano tactics which can be viewed following this Link) I will in the following, where necessary use terms presented in that post. "Nano" constitutes a space that is ill-defined and poorly understood. As a consequence any intervention can never be based on anything but lack of understanding, which in it`s furthest consequence can be detrimental. Actually, from my point of view it's mainly us (i.e. the players, or at least the forum-going ones) that brought up the concept of nano. If you read the Dev blog again, notice that it all appears to be based around their five goals for speed (not nano). To my mind, of those five points, only the first and last specifically deal with nanoships. In fact there've been quite a lot of wails around this from e.g. blaster BS pilots, along the lines of "this was meant to be a nano nerf! How come you're nerfing other ships too?" Whereas, if you refer back to the original blog, it doesn't state that this is a nano nerf - it states that this is an attempt to rebalance speed as a whole, to make it more manageable and more relevant. In fact, while the first goal was probably stated thinking about nanoHACs supplanting interceptors, I think it's just as valid when considering battleships hitting frigates/destroyers/cruisers in web range. Ideally the battleship should require some medium-/small-sized support to take out frigates, but currently it's able to. Having said that, my favourite parts of the changes are the ones that don't affect nano-ships explicitly - the lowering of web strengths (hooray!) and to a lesser extent but probably quite important for balance, scrams deactivating MWDs. This really does make both afterburners, and small ships, viable again outside of very niche roles - judging by feeback from people who have been able to test webbed-AB speedtanking on SiSi. Also, the general resorting of speeds so that there's a relevant distinction between different classes is just a good thing and I don't think anyone can argue with the concept (though I'm sure some will manage to argue about the implemtation. ) As for the actual lowering of speeds in general, most notably/drastically with nanoships - it probably makes sense as these speeds are by CCP's admission not what game mechanics were based around (e.g. explosion velocities, drone speeds and to a lesser extent all concepts of range are out of whack with the intentions of how they work). So now nano-style fits should still be possible, but won't be able to greatly or completely negate damage from drones and missiles; rather will have to either fit a semi-nano semi-actual tank, using their speed and extra mobility to get in, do some damage, and disengage when things get too hot/target pops. Guerilla should still work, but invincible shouldn't, if the changes are carried out in a balanced fashion. Anyway - my conclusion is that this isn't really a nano nerf, it's a speed rebalancing, and to my mind there's a major distinction there that's more than just semantics.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:53:00 - [11] The reduction of power for the web is huge. You can still speed tank- with an AB and under the guns of a larger ship- you just have to put it on the line now. Webs no longer are instadeath and that has enormous ramifications for tactics. Ships that weren't being used should now be popular. I guarantee you that if you're in a cruiser and you see an AF warp in- a shiver of fear will go down your spine. Risk and reward are restored.
Darahk J'olonar Gallente Trans Eve Organization	Posted - 2008.07.31 12:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 31/07/2008 12:17:46 Originally by: Bellum Eternus You have it the wrong way around. Nano noobs are 'Starcraft', 'traditional' players (everyone else) are 'Total Annihilation' players who are intent on playing the game with it's full range of ships and weapons fully operational. If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. Your HG snake set is a small percentage of nano pilots. And I have seen plenty of Vagas, Sacs, Ishtars, and Zealots (even with HG snakes) killed like any other ship. They are not invincible. It just takes, like every engagement should take, a plan. Edit: I have seen plenty of other ships flying around eve that are not nano ships. I've even seen nano ships not being flown as nano ships. It's a choice. People just tend to gravitate towards what others are doing, which is why you see so many nano ships. So you can fly the full range of ships, you just choose not to. Phoenix it's not that they chose not too it's that they have no choice to remain competitive in PVP when all they face is nano ships. It has become so common to see gangs with nothing but nano Recons/HACs one would think that the rest of the ships out there don't exist. In order to bring the game back into the realms of reality the devs are doing what they feel is necessary to curb this nano trend.
Siddy Minmatar Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.07.31 13:01:00 - [13] poasting in srios thread full of serios missconcepts
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.07.31 13:11:00 - [14] Originally by: Siddy poasting in srios thread full of serios missconcepts /thread. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.07.31 13:12:00 - [15] I liked that nano had evolved as a fun playstyle but something needed to be done; vagas were replacing interceptors, ships being lost less was causing ship class inflation, and the backlash of large numbers of people training minmatar recons wasn't slowing down nano proliferation. So it makes sense that they would feel they had to step in if the in game counters couldn't keep it under control enough to maintain a variety of play-styles. Some of the changes are great--especially the weakening of webs, AFs getting frigate speed stats, and frigates in general becoming faster than cruisers in general. Those things should provide a good boost to frig play--which was needed, imo. I think causing nanofibers to stack nerf with ODs is also a good move to keep larger hulls from using their larger amount on lows to be faster ships they should be slower than. Some of the other changes... seem to be very overdone. Especially the hit to ODs and the MWD warmup. ODs in and of themselves aren't all that powerful really, let them keep their strength--they can benefit AB fits and it's the high MWD speeds they're trying to bring down. That MWD warmup time is also going to make escaping gate gamps quite a bit harder. I'm not with you on having cruisers able to outrun frigate missiles and drones, but avoiding damage is not really what made nanos powerful, imo, it's the ability to pick fights. It's a fit designed to pick off a few types of easy targets and run from everything they don't have enough muscle or numbers to take down. We'll have to see how it all turns out, but I don't think the nano playstyle is dead at all. If they just remove that MWD warmup, the playstyle can go on using the ships that should be doing it--frigates. I personally look forward to playing with and against gangs of speed fit T2 frigs now that they'll hold their rightful place as the kings of the speed game.
Bloody Love	Posted - 2008.07.31 13:18:00 - [16] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Or maybe 14k/sec is broken? Hell, even 5.5k/sec is broken. And this is coming from someone who flies nano ships. Not because I like it, but because I have to since that's all there is. I'm glad for the speed rebalancing and the multitude of different "new" approaches to PvP that will have to arise from the nano ashes. Speed will still be an alternative, but no guaranteed invulnerability anymore. You will still be able to go fast, but not insane fast.
iNsAn3 Caldari SKots INdusTries The Second Genesis	Posted - 2008.07.31 13:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Bloody Love Originally by: Bellum Eternus Or maybe 14k/sec is broken? Hell, even 5.5k/sec is broken. And this is coming from someone who flies nano ships. Not because I like it, but because I have to since that's all there is. I'm glad for the speed rebalancing and the multitude of different "new" approaches to PvP that will have to arise from the nano ashes. Speed will still be an alternative, but no guaranteed invulnerability anymore. You will still be able to go fast, but not insane fast. yesyesyesyesyesyes, im afraid this is the epic post here. 100% agree. --- The Cake Is A LIE?!?! [TROCK] Are Recruitng!!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.31 13:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Bellum Eternus If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. This. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.31 13:35:00 - [19] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/07/2008 13:36:35 Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 31/07/2008 12:17:46 Originally by: Bellum Eternus You have it the wrong way around. Nano noobs are 'Starcraft', 'traditional' players (everyone else) are 'Total Annihilation' players who are intent on playing the game with it's full range of ships and weapons fully operational. If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. Your HG snake set is a small percentage of nano pilots. And I have seen plenty of Vagas, Sacs, Ishtars, and Zealots (even with HG snakes) killed like any other ship. They are not invincible. It just takes, like every engagement should take, a plan. Edit: I have seen plenty of other ships flying around eve that are not nano ships. I've even seen nano ships not being flown as nano ships. It's a choice. People just tend to gravitate towards what others are doing, which is why you see so many nano ships. So you can fly the full range of ships, you just choose not to. Dont play dumb. You and I know that single snaked nano ship speeds arent the problem. Its not because of snakes they are nerfing it. Ebay warning if you dont grasp that. But meh, what can I expect from an alliance member that is in an alliance basically purely based on this type of combat. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
kurg Amarr The Phoenix Enclave	Posted - 2008.07.31 14:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Baudolino CCP I`ve read the dev blog, i`ve thought about your proposals and i believe i understand the frame of mind in which these ideas were thought out. I have played this game since the very beginning, i have seen all expansions and just about all the patches. I`ve played the game since there was no stacking and frigates fielded cruise missiles and battleships fitted 5x MWDs. I was there before "orbit" and indeed suggested it to CCP myself. I believe that EVE today is caught in a limbo somewhere between tech II and tech III. Caught in a move in which "heat" and "combat boosters" are to be the next great thing in combat. As features central to tech III have been unleashed before the tech branch itself, we have a situation in wich non-stacking bonuses create the speeds you state to be insane- and a change is required or when tech III is introduced things will really get "insane". I do however believe that you are in your changes also contemplating a sad mistake based on dangerous misconceptions. I am of course talking about "nano". (I have previously written about nano tactics which can be viewed following this Link) I will in the following, where necessary use terms presented in that post. "Nano" constitutes a space that is ill-defined and poorly understood. As a consequence any intervention can never be based on anything but lack of understanding, which in it`s furthest consequence can be detrimental. There is no clear definition of what constitutes a "nano" ship- frequently people believe a ship is "nano" as long as it has some speed increasing modules on it and just as frequently turn to ships flying 15km/s to depict a ruinous fault in the game. As i have previously stated, the game has 3 speeds: "max", "orbit" and "heated". The latter includes combat boosters and refers to temporary effects. In addition there are the gang bonuses which I`ll get back to. The 15km/s ship relying on temporary effects will have a "max" speed somewhere around 9-10km/s and it`s "orbit" speed will be around 5-6km/s. The going mantra is that you need a ship flying 10km/s or faster to engage a 10km/s ship- nothing could be further from the truth- as i stated in the link above. This belief is thuroughly based on a lack of understanding of game mechanics and "nano" tactics. I have previously defined "nano" as constituting ships flying at "max" speeds above 4.5km/s and this definition precludes 90% of the current so-called "nano" population. I use this speed because it is the speed required to effectively escape drones and missiles when entering "orbit" which speeds are significantly lower then "max", but "max" will and should always be the speed to which all others are compared. However it becomes dangerous when "max" speed is used to portray a reality in other situations in which it is not valid. It also becomes extremely dangerous when "heat/booster" speeds are referenced in a manner such as to cause confusion about what is "max" and what is a temporary effect. I believe you are doing the same mistake you did when announcing a nerf to carriers, only this mistake is much greater. I see both mistakes as a possible indication of GMs and developers having less intimate knowledge of game mechanics then they had only 2 years ago. I see CCP relying in both cases on players with even less understanding of the mechanics they are discussing. I believe EVE has evolved. I believe speed and the advanced gamestyle in it`s wake has been refreshing to eve and while some adaptations towards tech III are required and while extreme effects such as a Machariel doing 18km/s should be curtailed, the function and purpose of "nano" is valid and should not be removed. -concluded in the next part- I do not agree with OP and hope the changes proposed by CCP are implemented!
Miss Rumpelstilzchen Minmatar Black Horizon Ltd	Posted - 2008.07.31 14:32:00 - [21] well so if this nano neaf comes ... you can also remove the Race Minmatar. Vaga: speed HAC... after it its not able to get the speed to perform Hit&Run tactic (gurilia) Stabber: same as vaga Minmatar BS: they are a joke, Phoon only usefull in gang`s as RR and little dmg dealer only good ship i see now are the Hurricane, but with lesser fitting options so pleace CCP remove Minmatar and give all minmatar pilots a change to a Race of his favor, Thanks
Bloody Love	Posted - 2008.07.31 14:35:00 - [22] Originally by: Miss Rumpelstilzchen well so if this nano neaf comes ... you can also remove the Race Minmatar. Vaga: speed HAC... after it its not able to get the speed to perform Hit&Run tactic (gurilia) Stabber: same as vaga Minmatar BS: they are a joke, Phoon only usefull in gang`s as RR and little dmg dealer only good ship i see now are the Hurricane, but with lesser fitting options so pleace CCP remove Minmatar and give all minmatar pilots a change to a Race of his favor, Thanks B to the U to the L to the L to the S to the H to the I to the T Read the dev blog again and try to understand the balancing changes this time
Miss Rumpelstilzchen Minmatar Black Horizon Ltd	Posted - 2008.07.31 14:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Bloody Love B to the U to the L to the L to the S to the H to the I to the T Read the dev blog again and try to understand the balancing changes this time i read it .. and i think the Blog writer have no clue what hes writing, just a example: Then there is also the size/price factor; why would I spend ISK on a sleek, fragile interceptor (thatÆs lithe and quick, supposedly), when I can just spend the money on a more durable heavy assault cruiser and reach even greater speeds? whats wrong?
Yiv	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:01:00 - [24] /agree Minmatar is now a redundant race. Minmatar relies on speed, nerf it and you have a race that has lower natural abilities and bonuses in all areas. Welcome to the new era: 2x 50 man HAM drake gangs doing poor damage to each other with insane tanks.
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:03:00 - [25] Nano becomes the only mechanic. It is "nano vs everything". This it should go away. It should not be more effective than EW, gank-fit, tank-fit or precision fit, or cap-warfare, or myriad of other means that can be used to gain advantage. Currently, you need all of those to counter mobility-fitted ship. EVE system was not designed for that, and it became possible in the course of EvE sandbox expansion without sufficient control over exremes it may generate. Now it finally gets fixed. Unfortunately, the letter is returned to sender. --- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again!
Bloody Love	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:10:00 - [26] Edited by: Bloody Love on 31/07/2008 15:12:53 Originally by: Miss Rumpelstilzchen Originally by: Bloody Love B to the U to the L to the L to the S to the H to the I to the T Read the dev blog again and try to understand the balancing changes this time i read it .. and i think the Blog writer have no clue what hes writing, just a example: Then there is also the size/price factor; why would I spend ISK on a sleek, fragile interceptor (thatÆs lithe and quick, supposedly), when I can just spend the money on a more durable heavy assault cruiser and reach even greater speeds? whats wrong? So a ship with a mass of 11,250,000kg (= Ishtar) should go as fast as (if not faster than) a ship with a mass of 1,100,000kg (= Ares) which is especially designed for being fast? And you don't think that's wrong? Wasn't there a remark about "having brain surgery if you think so" already?
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:15:00 - [27] Edited by: Euriti on 31/07/2008 15:16:28 Originally by: Siddy poasting in srios thread full of serios missconcepts This. I fly in 0.0 and low sec, all the time and the common misconception that "Nanos is all there is" and "Soon everyone will be nano" can't be further from the truth. Nanos have a niche, a niche that is created by several changes made by CCP through the years, these include supercaps, jumpbridges, cynojammers etc. Nanos emerged because of above changes. It became hard to roam with small gangs in enemy territory because the defenders could set up bubblecamps and kill you with superior forces and could move about freely in their territory via jump bridges and jump portals from titans. Another factor to note is the vastness of 0.0. Hundreds of jumps to get from one place on the map to another. Then came nano fits, these could pass systems faster, avoid gatecamps and fight outnumbered. This tactic was taken on by small gangs as a way to fight the blob and roam freely. Without them I'm afraid we'll see less roaming gangs than we do now. This leads me to the next point. Nanos have this little niche as described above. This is where they work. They dont work for capfights, they dont work for big blobs, they dont work for taking down pos etc. etc. They are not everywhere, they're not the only ships flown, not even the so called "nano* alliances" fly nanos all the time. They fly battleships for pos ops, rr gangs, sniper fights and use capital ships for capital ops. If it was nano vs everything then all there would be on killboards were nano ships. This is not the truth, stop lying to support your argument. Thank you in advance**
P'uck	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:23:00 - [28] Edited by: P''uck on 31/07/2008 15:22:57 Originally by: Miss Rumpelstilzchen whats wrong? I guess you mean what's wrong is the cost relation, because you cannot just spend the same amount of isk on a HAC for the same result. You need to fork out all the way for primo performance on the HAC. Problem probably is, once you invested in the equipment to get your HAC that fast, the shipcost ITSELF becomes negligible. 100mil for that ship? who cares, you just blew BILLIONS on your implants and rigs. and if you save that miniscule fraction of 90 mil to get that interceptor instead, yes, you will be that much faster, but pretty much useless compared to the hac guy. nozh has a point. Im just afraid of what he wants to do to our 2pts.
Bloody Love	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:26:00 - [29] Originally by: Euriti Edited by: Euriti on 31/07/2008 15:16:28 Originally by: Siddy poasting in srios thread full of serios missconcepts This. I fly in 0.0 and low sec, all the time and the common misconception that "Nanos is all there is" and "Soon everyone will be nano" can't be further from the truth. Nanos have a niche, a niche that is created by several changes made by CCP through the years, these include supercaps, jumpbridges, cynojammers etc. Nanos emerged because of above changes. It became hard to roam with small gangs in enemy territory because the defenders could set up bubblecamps and kill you with superior forces and could move about freely in their territory via jump bridges and jump portals from titans. Another factor to note is the vastness of 0.0. Hundreds of jumps to get from one place on the map to another. Then came nano fits, these could pass systems faster, avoid gatecamps and fight outnumbered. This tactic was taken on by small gangs as a way to fight the blob and roam freely. Without them I'm afraid we'll see less roaming gangs than we do now. This leads me to the next point. Nanos have this little niche as described above. This is where they work. They dont work for capfights, they dont work for big blobs, they dont work for taking down pos etc. etc. They are not everywhere, they're not the only ships flown, not even the so called "nano* alliances" fly nanos all the time. They fly battleships for pos ops, rr gangs, sniper fights and use capital ships for capital ops. If it was nano vs everything then all there would be on killboards were nano ships. This is not the truth, stop lying to support your argument. Thank you in advance You just don't get it. The upcoming changes won't be the end for fast roaming gangs. They just won't be invulnerable any more, people will be able to catch you and kill you if you invade their homeland. And you might actually have to think** about how you fit your ship instead of just following the masses like the good lemming that you are.
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:41:00 - [30] Edited by: Baudolino on 31/07/2008 15:48:30 Originally by: Bloody Love You just don't get it. The upcoming changes won't be the end for fast roaming gangs. They just won't be invulnerable any more, people will be able to catch you and kill you if you invade their homeland. And you might actually have to think about how you fit your ship instead of just following the masses like the good lemming that you are. Ths is one of the greatest misconceptions about nano-fighting. That it`s all about "max" speed and all about f1-f8 orbiting on near autopilot. Nano combat and nano engagements are the most difficult and tactically demanding we`ve seen since eve went online. Fast paced demanding high level of pre-combat coordination, rapid comms and manual flight capabilities. A nano is dead the second he believes he can simply orbit and go for coffee.. Again i bring attention to my post on nano tactics: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=816890 While not exhaustive it does point to several myths regarding nanos. Back to topic though: In my original post i do not state that i`m against changes to the speed mechanics, MWDs or ships themselves. I simpy emplore CCP to appreciate the complexities of "nano" and accept that while it is poorly defined and suffers from several misundersandings (while at the same time deserving some modifications), "nano" and high-speed flight can be and in my opinion is, of great value to the game.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:45:00 - [31] Wrong forum section for open letter, not an open letter at all, thread delivers on fail a lot tho, 3/10. Close letter, send to iceland, or get to the correct forum section after testing on SiSi. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Bellum Eternus If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. This. That. A lot. All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Webster Carr Gallente Magellan Exploration and Survey	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:52:00 - [32] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Bloody Love Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 31/07/2008 12:17:46 Originally by: Bellum Eternus You have it the wrong way around. Nano noobs are 'Starcraft', 'traditional' players (everyone else) are 'Total Annihilation' players who are intent on playing the game with it's full range of ships and weapons fully operational. If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. Your HG snake set is a small percentage of nano pilots. And I have seen plenty of Vagas, Sacs, Ishtars, and Zealots (even with HG snakes) killed like any other ship. They are not invincible. It just takes, like every engagement should take, a plan. Edit: I have seen plenty of other ships flying around eve that are not nano ships. I've even seen nano ships not being flown as nano ships. It's a choice. People just tend to gravitate towards what others are doing, which is why you see so many nano ships. So you can fly the full range of ships, you just choose not to. I'm on the same set of HG Snakes for over two years now. What is that telling you? You haven't flown your nano in over two years now? Or maybe 14k/sec is broken? Hell, even 5.5k/sec is broken. And this is coming from someone who flies nano ships. Not because I like it, but because I have to since that's all there is. This last line is why CCP is changing Nanoships: Currently it is the 'only' way to competitively fit your ship. Let's look at some of their changes rationally: Balancing speeds between ship classes, with smaller ships actually going faster. Hopefully giving reason to fly said smaller ships again. (For example the much maligned Assault Ships.) Reducing Web speed reduction. Currently if you're in a smaller ship and you get webbed, you're dead... so again the thrust is to make all ship classes useful. Warp Disruption shutting down MWD. First: This just makes sense, it is a WARP disruptor and it's a micro WARP drive. Second: Now people don't 'have to' fit MWD, there is now a reason to fit afterburners for PVP speed. Note: Several ships will still want to fit MWD, Interceptors can still use them to get in close (they usually shut them down while orbiting anyway.) Long range ships can still use them to keep beyond 20km distance but now an Afterburner frigate might have a chance of catching a MWD battleship... Bottom line is it seems like the changes are opening far more options than they're closing... Webb
Miss Rumpelstilzchen Minmatar Black Horizon Ltd	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:54:00 - [33] Originally by: Bloody Love You just don't get it. The upcoming changes won't be the end for fast roaming gangs. They just won't be invulnerable any more, people will be able to catch you and kill you if you invade their homeland. And you might actually have to think about how you fit your ship instead of just following the masses like the good lemming that you are. so say .. why are you for the nerf?.. i think i know it... you can`t kill a Nano HAC becouse u "can`t" hit it, and can run away form you, if he can`t kill you, or even you make to much dmg if u can hit them. so you don`t make a kill or get killt --> NERF becouse this whine and don`t come with the "but they fly over 10-20km/s" ... they spend Billion into the ships and Implants
Groknor	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:58:00 - [34] I feel like I have to throw in my two ISK. IMO intercepters (and maybe a couple t1 frigs) should be the ONLY ships to be able to outrun gunfire from other players. That is the intercepter's role, get in fast, tackle, and avoid turret gunfire, taking minimal damage from missiles. Any other ship that can do this is "broken" as you all say. If CCP takes away the ability for intercepters to avoid gunfire then what is the point? They have no armor or shields, and barely enough DPS. I can understand taking speed away from, say, a battlecruiser or even a cruiser, but leave the intercepter alone. (with the exception of the guys who go 13km/s, that's redonkulous) If anyone complains about a blaster-boat not being able to get in range, then change your tactics. Fit rails or fly a blaster ship in a gang where you can support with damage, rather than try and be god with it.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:07:00 - [35] Rarely do I read a post on these forums that actually convinces me of something, but Baudolino is absolutely right. The game needs to be changed so that the things that are currently broken that cause nanos to be such a problem are fixed, not so Nano's are removed. While I haven't played much on Sisi and the full effect of the changes remains to be seen, I would have much rather seen a mechanic change that would allow missiles to hit nano targets in a way that doesn't ignore their speed but doesn't comepletely invalidate missiles as a viable strategy (and CCP has stated missiles are intended as something of a counter to fast moving targets). The same is true for tracking, etc....appropriate weapon classes should be able to hit, even if its for marginal damage, regardless of what speed a target is moving at. The key is mitigation rather than avoidance. What I'm really concerned about is how these changes will affect gate camps, will AB fitted buffer tank ships always be able to make it back to the gate unless they are dual-webbed? I don't know I like that idea. -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
McDonALTs	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:15:00 - [36] Wow. People unhappy that their ships are going to get blown up insted of immune mode. Eve tactics are all destroyed due to nano. Everyone has to fit MWD for pvp and AB is a comedy option. CCPs' canges are fantastic since it gives a point to using the AB in pvp. It brings AF's back to being useable as heavy tacklers. Intercepters are to intercept targets in a small group and AF's are tough tackling ships that can take the punishment that BS's drones throw out as well as kill drones easaly etc. The Game got a whole lot deeper and better. Eve is entering its golden age now that people can have enjoyable pvp and FC's can now use tactics and distace as a tactical tool for sniping and anti-blob tactics
Impolite Andevil The Shadow Knights Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:18:00 - [37] The comments some people are posting in this thread in support of nanos, namely the fact that they evolved in response to cynojammers, the largeness of 0.0 space, the ability of alliances to bubble camp the entrances to their space and thus prevent small incursions, etc. are all actually proving the point that nano needs to be nerfed. There should NEVER be a single tactic that can be effective against all of these obstacles, and yet nano is. It's rock, paper, steamroller, not rock, paper, scissors, and thus the proliferation of the nano gang. Nano gangs are very popular because it allows a small group of people to get together with little planning and small numbers and invade enemy space with a high degree of both lethality and survivability. No other tactic can do that, nor should any tactic be able to. When an alliance holds 0.0 space, it should have the ability to protect that space against casual incursions by enemy players looking for easy kills. It should be possible to have 30 players set up a couple of bubble camps at the entrances to a branch and be confident that they can protect the ice mining op going on 2 jumps past them against all but a fairly significant attack. However, as things are now, a group of 5-6 people could fairly easily jump into one of those camps, mwd out of the bubble and out of range, and continue further into the branch to attack the op. Sure, if it was a well organized gatecamp with rapiers/huggins, etc., there is a decent chance that a couple of the attacking gang will die, but no other set of fittings would let ANY members of a casual gang 1/3rd the size of an opposing gang in a prepared camp survive. Nanos are PvP on easy mode. It really should take some thought and planning and numbers to invade hostile space with any degree of confidence in the outcome. It should be possible for a space-holding alliance to protect its space from casual PvP gangs. It should be pretty much a given that if you jump into a bubble camp that seriously outnumbers you there will be a high probability of death. It should take time for a gang to hop 7 systems into enemy space - time for those mining ops and the ratting groups to be warned by scouts and pack things in or change to PvP setups. With any other fit all of those things are true. With a nano fit, all the other players work and effort can be invalidated with minimal effort or risk. Nano setups have not led to variety in PvP. It has led to a bland PvP environment where most gangs are nano, most gatecamps are not very effective, and the value of both planning for PvP operations and holding space has been degraded. By bringing the changes CCP is proposing, the variety of PvP should return. I fully expect to see roaming gangs of RR battleships. When was the last time you saw that? It's been months for me - lots of nano gangs, though. I expect to see frigate gangs, cruiser gangs, larger alliance ops because you will need a lot of pilots to break into an enemy system. I expect to see logistics, ewar, and snipers all become more commonplace in normal PvP. Tank, gank, ewar, and cap war all become useful alternatives to me fielding my rapier yet again for nano defense. I am looking forward to the changes. :) BTW - I can fly pretty much every nano ship in the game atm. I also fly both matari recons. All of those are getting nerfed. However, I also fly interceptors, the other recons, other hacs, command ships, battleships, interdictors, EAFs, hictors, etc... All of those I see as being comparitively buffed since there is again a reaosn to fly them instead of pulling out the rapier or pulling out a nano-hac.
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:24:00 - [38] Originally by: Impolite Andevil The comments some people are posting in this thread in support of nanos, namely the fact that they evolved in response to cynojammers, the largeness of 0.0 space, the ability of alliances to bubble camp the entrances to their space and thus prevent small incursions, etc. are all actually proving the point that nano needs to be nerfed. There should NEVER be a single tactic that can be effective against all of these obstacles, and yet nano is. It's rock, paper, steamroller, not rock, paper, scissors, and thus the proliferation of the nano gang. Nano gangs are very popular because it allows a small group of people to get together with little planning and small numbers and invade enemy space with a high degree of both lethality and survivability. No other tactic can do that, nor should any tactic be able to. When an alliance holds 0.0 space, it should have the ability to protect that space against casual incursions by enemy players looking for easy kills. It should be possible to have 30 players set up a couple of bubble camps at the entrances to a branch and be confident that they can protect the ice mining op going on 2 jumps past them against all but a fairly significant attack. However, as things are now, a group of 5-6 people could fairly easily jump into one of those camps, mwd out of the bubble and out of range, and continue further into the branch to attack the op. Sure, if it was a well organized gatecamp with rapiers/huggins, etc., there is a decent chance that a couple of the attacking gang will die, but no other set of fittings would let ANY members of a casual gang 1/3rd the size of an opposing gang in a prepared camp survive. Nanos are PvP on easy mode. It really should take some thought and planning and numbers to invade hostile space with any degree of confidence in the outcome. It should be possible for a space-holding alliance to protect its space from casual PvP gangs. It should be pretty much a given that if you jump into a bubble camp that seriously outnumbers you there will be a high probability of death. It should take time for a gang to hop 7 systems into enemy space - time for those mining ops and the ratting groups to be warned by scouts and pack things in or change to PvP setups. With any other fit all of those things are true. With a nano fit, all the other players work and effort can be invalidated with minimal effort or risk. Nano setups have not led to variety in PvP. It has led to a bland PvP environment where most gangs are nano, most gatecamps are not very effective, and the value of both planning for PvP operations and holding space has been degraded. By bringing the changes CCP is proposing, the variety of PvP should return. I fully expect to see roaming gangs of RR battleships. When was the last time you saw that? It's been months for me - lots of nano gangs, though. I expect to see frigate gangs, cruiser gangs, larger alliance ops because you will need a lot of pilots to break into an enemy system. I expect to see logistics, ewar, and snipers all become more commonplace in normal PvP. Tank, gank, ewar, and cap war all become useful alternatives to me fielding my rapier yet again for nano defense. I am looking forward to the changes. :) BTW - I can fly pretty much every nano ship in the game atm. I also fly both matari recons. All of those are getting nerfed. However, I also fly interceptors, the other recons, other hacs, command ships, battleships, interdictors, EAFs, hictors, etc... All of those I see as being comparitively buffed since there is again a reaosn to fly them instead of pulling out the rapier or pulling out a nano-hac. So basically if you can't bring more people than the enemy you should just bugger off.
SauliusV	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:26:00 - [39] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'm on the same set of HG Snakes for over two years now. What is that telling you? Kinda funny, since i did bother to check your killboard...so how much time exactly did u spend in 0.0 with that HG snake set? ;) Correct me if im wrong, but after quick lookaround i havent seen much 0.0 action this year at least. so what does it tell about snakes and low sec? :) an why exactly u dont spend any time in 0.0 with snakes? They are invincible arent they? :-) Sauliusv
GeneralNukeEm Free Collective The OSS	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:58:00 - [40] Edited by: GeneralNukeEm on 31/07/2008 16:58:18 Nano gangs are some of the most difficult gangs to coordinate and pull off correctly. Anybody can collect a group of incompetents together in whatever ships they can or want to fly. Trying to get that same group of incompetents together in a ship fit for the kind of gang you are trying to run, whether it be nano, remote rep, sniping, etc is much more difficult. And unlike battleship gangs, in nano gangs you have to do much, much more than sit there and press f1-f8 while locking the primary target.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:59:00 - [41] CCP already tried to make changes to Eve to adapt to the whole Nanofad rather than nerf it, but the results were not exactly pleasing apparently. If we really want to get back into an age of limited risk after this patch, simply take warp interdiction away from any ship that doesn't require the interdictor skill. My issue with nano is that it was too easy to run when nobody else has that option...unless they nano as well. Nano takes variety from the game, it doesn't add to it. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.31 17:51:00 - [42] The reclassifying of ship speeds was good on CCP's part. Boosting AB's was a good thing. Nerfing webs was a good thing. Nerfing snakes and Polys was a good thing. Boosting warp scrams was a good thing. BUT nerfing the MWD as hard as they did was NOT a good thing. The patch would be absolutely perfect in my opinion if the MWD nerf wasn't so nasty. Nerf the shit going 10 km/s or more, rebalance the ships, but don't get rid of the speed that most fly at and use. (The 4-7 km/s range.)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.31 17:54:00 - [43] Originally by: Megan Maynard The reclassifying of ship speeds was good on CCP's part. Boosting AB's was a good thing. Nerfing webs was a good thing. Nerfing snakes and Polys was a good thing. Boosting warp scrams was a good thing. BUT nerfing the MWD as hard as they did was NOT a good thing. The patch would be absolutely perfect in my opinion if the MWD nerf wasn't so nasty. Nerf the shit going 10 km/s or more, rebalance the ships, but don't get rid of the speed that most fly at and use. (The 4-7 km/s range.) Yeah, but lets see how it works out once they adjust/nerf missiles accordingly to the new speeds. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
DarthJosh DEATHFUNK R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.07.31 17:59:00 - [44] Originally by: Keitaro Baka Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Bellum Eternus If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. This. That. A lot. What these three guys said ^^ - Desusigs!
DarthJosh DEATHFUNK R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.07.31 18:00:00 - [45] Originally by: SauliusV Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'm on the same set of HG Snakes for over two years now. What is that telling you? Kinda funny, since i did bother to check your killboard...so how much time exactly did u spend in 0.0 with that HG snake set? ;) Correct me if im wrong, but after quick lookaround i havent seen much 0.0 action this year at least. so what does it tell about snakes and low sec? :) an why exactly u dont spend any time in 0.0 with snakes? They are invincible arent they? :-) Sauliusv Do you have a snake set? - Desusigs!
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.31 18:08:00 - [46] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 31/07/2008 18:09:30 Edited by: AstroPhobic on 31/07/2008 18:08:38 Originally by: Megan Maynard The reclassifying of ship speeds was good on CCP's part. Boosting AB's was a good thing. Nerfing webs was a good thing. Nerfing snakes and Polys was a good thing. Boosting warp scrams was a good thing. BUT nerfing the MWD as hard as they did was NOT a good thing. The patch would be absolutely perfect in my opinion if the MWD nerf wasn't so nasty. Nerf the shit going 10 km/s or more, rebalance the ships, but don't get rid of the speed that most fly at and use. (The 4-7 km/s range.) The mass changes seemed pretty un-needed. Why did minmatar mass get severely nerfed while other ship's masses got severely buffed? Then in some classes, all races' mass was nerfed. Then in others, all races' mass was buffed. I can see an AF fix, but seriously, did battleship mass need to be touched? All battleships got slower too. Sometimes I just really don't understand WTF CCP is thinking.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.31 18:09:00 - [47] Other than Caldari, mass seemed to be pretty reasonable. If anything Minmatar could use a mass buff not nerf after the patch. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.31 18:12:00 - [48] Originally by: Anubis Xian Other than Caldari, mass seemed to be pretty reasonable. If anything Minmatar could use a mass buff not nerf after the patch. Not only does it put gallente somewhat in the shitter, it unevens the battlefield even more in amarr's favor. I could honestly say though, I didn't see a minmatar battleship nerf coming. Especially because minnie BS mass/agility wasn't very superior to begin with. Plus, I agree with caldari. What was it, the merlin that got 1/3rd of it's mass hacked off, and is now more agile than the rifter? WTF?
Terraform Gallente Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2008.07.31 18:18:00 - [49] no cruiser should ever go above 3.4 km/s. And the whole bla bla about inties not able to survive tackling? not true, i can survive just fine on the test server, tackling cruisers, BCs and BSs. The reason for this success is AB, with an AB your sig is low enough to avoid most, if not all gunfire and missile dmg. I tried this on a setup ares btw, which has both an AB and an MWD on, thus it's able to MWD into range, switch off MWD and apply AB as it goes into orbit. Anything but rockets had trouble hitting me, well.. light missiles scratched my paint work a bit, but nothing i should be able to survive long enough for help to arrive.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.07.31 18:23:00 - [50] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yeah, but lets see how it works out IF they adjust/nerf missiles accordingly to the new speeds. Fixed. Yeah I've been supporting a nerf on ze missiles. I think I am going way off topic, but then again, this is a whine post so there is no going off topic. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Sol'Kanar Minmatar NightCrew	Posted - 2008.07.31 18:51:00 - [51] Originally by: McDonALTs Webs get a 50% nerf (from 90% to 60% is a 50% less effectiveness) Sorry, your math is incorrect. 90% to 60% is a 400% reduction in effectiveness. Using nice round numbers as an example: You travel 100m/s. A 90% web reduces you to 10m/s. A 60% web reduces you to 40m/s. 40m/s / 10m/s = 4 (or 400% faster) Furthermore, going from 90% to 60% is not a 50% nerf, it's a 33% nerf. Half of 90% would be 45%.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.07.31 19:49:00 - [52] sad state of affairs this is. OP, good content. All of you who want to make this into a 'pilot type A / pilot type B' or 'yes nanos vs no nanos' are the very morons that put us in this situation. Your forced to polorize the arguement so that your brains can get wrapped around it. Sure speed needs nerfed. But the dont need to break the game to do it. ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2008.07.31 20:01:00 - [53] Well, I'm not exactly the nanofan, but I think this nerf is a bit to much. Stackingpenalty, change of riggs and the altered mechanics for the tackling gear is fine in my opinion. What I really don't like is the change to MWD's and the changed inertias. My battleship is out of cap, before it even get's close to maximum MWD speed. And my interceptor doesn't feel right too. 4.5k is a bit slow. Make it 5-5.5k for my average ship, which will result in 6-6.5k for absolute pimp inties, because of the stacking penalty.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.31 20:15:00 - [54] Originally by: Vaal Erit Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yeah, but lets see how it works out IF they adjust/nerf missiles accordingly to the new speeds. Fixed. Yeah I've been supporting a nerf on ze missiles. I think I am going way off topic, but then again, this is a whine post so there is no going off topic. Well I sure hope they fix it. Theyve said so. It sure is needed, they are slightly OP right now. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.07.31 20:46:00 - [55] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 31/07/2008 20:52:34 Originally by: Bellum Eternus If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. CCP doesn't seem to understand that your setup is not only extremely rare, but also the only type of nano that is too fast. Now, your HG snakes won't even break 3km/s unless you're in a vaga Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well I sure hope they fix it. Theyve said so. It sure is needed, they are slightly OP right now. What isn't overpowered Lyria?
P'uck	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:00:00 - [56] Originally by: AstroPhobic Sometimes I just really don't understand WTF CCP is thinking. I don't really get the battleship thing, either. My theory is, they thought the relation of the ships to each other needs to be retained. But why the phoon gets heavier and the domi lighter is beyond me. I still suspect a typo on the numpad :)
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:12:00 - [57] The nerf does seem a bit overboard but I don't think it'll kill the speed playstyle at all. Until now frigates couldn't really compete in the speed game because they'd get run down by HACs and blown up in very short order. Inties can outrun the HACs of course but inties have to be very careful how they engage HACs and a pimped intie is much more likely to go down than a pimped nano, yet the cost difference isn't that much. So here's to hoping speed fits just change from T2 cruisers to T2 frigates. That wouldn't be so bad at all, I can see AFs coming forth and filling the hole HACs leave behind very nicely with their newfound speed and the dps/toughness they've always had. It makes sense that frigates should be the top of the food chain for hit and run and picking fights, that's how the game was designed from the beginning, was it not?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:17:00 - [58] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu What isn't overpowered Lyria? Easy: Amarr. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:23:00 - [59] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Atsuko Ratu What isn't overpowered Lyria? Easy: Amarr. Oh no she didn't!
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.01 02:39:00 - [60] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Megan Maynard The reclassifying of ship speeds was good on CCP's part. Boosting AB's was a good thing. Nerfing webs was a good thing. Nerfing snakes and Polys was a good thing. Boosting warp scrams was a good thing. BUT nerfing the MWD as hard as they did was NOT a good thing. The patch would be absolutely perfect in my opinion if the MWD nerf wasn't so nasty. Nerf the shit going 10 km/s or more, rebalance the ships, but don't get rid of the speed that most fly at and use. (The 4-7 km/s range.) Yeah, but lets see how it works out once they adjust/nerf missiles accordingly to the new speeds. Maybe. But really the game is not as fast paced with the patch, and therefore in my view, not as fun. It was fun screaming around in a frigate going 5000+ m/s easily.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.08.01 02:51:00 - [61] Originally by: Megan Maynard Maybe. But really the game is not as fast paced with the patch, and therefore in my view, not as fun. It was fun screaming around in a frigate going 5000+ m/s easily. It's even more fun hanging onto a HAC in close orbit with a Wolf. Try it. Good times.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr The Grim Reapers	Posted - 2008.08.01 04:34:00 - [62] To you "it's only a nano game at the moment" ****s: GET A ING CLUE! I've PvPed in ALL CLASSES over the past two years. Guess what? Nano HACs are not the end all of Eve. They are just another tool in the toolbox. Want to roam? Yeah, speedHacs are good for that. But Fleet battles -> Sniper BS, gatecamp busting -> gank BS, disruption ops -> Force Recons... use the right tool for the right job... and that includes killing nanoships. Minmatar are going to be epically ed by these **ed changes, Gallente too, but to a lesser degree... good ing thing I have Amarr BS V and large e-turrets T2, to be **ing honest.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.01 08:14:00 - [63] Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 31/07/2008 12:15:26 I agree with you entirely. Unfortunately, as I have stated to many fellow eve players, CCP has a past history of over-nerfing (Nos, Damps, Carriers, for example). And there current eve community of a vocal minority is not helping the situation. Average nano pilots do not own snakes, not even low grade ones. Yet CCP based at lot of the nerfs on a vagabond with a HG snake set. (Before I get into a rant) It's kind of sad to CCP do something so detrimental, but alas. As PVP'ers, it's kind of our choosen lifestyle to have to always change tactics when a carebear loses his Rail-Raven to a smarter player what about the M in MWD meaning mandatory? what about the hsips that cant nano and are therefore dreafull? what about the invincable nano's that, no mater how much isk they have, shld never ever be invincable? poudly annoying fc's since 2007 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=828123 caldari drone boat enthusiast
Chaos Incarnate	Posted - 2008.08.01 09:01:00 - [64] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus To you "it's only a nano game at the moment" ****s: GET A ING CLUE! I've PvPed in ALL CLASSES over the past two years. Guess what? Nano HACs are not the end all of Eve. They are just another tool in the toolbox. Want to roam? Yeah, speedHacs are good for that. But Fleet battles -> Sniper BS, gatecamp busting -> gank BS, disruption ops -> Force Recons... use the right tool for the right job... and that includes killing nanoships. Minmatar are going to be epically ed by these **ed changes, Gallente too, but to a lesser degree... good ing thing I have Amarr BS V and large e-turrets T2, to be ing honest. When your head explodes after your next epic outpouring of e-rage over pixels, can I have your stuff? Quote:** "Rabble Rabble Rabble!" "Just sitting out here saying "Rabble Rabble" isn't going to fix anything!" "But we don't know what else to do!" "Rabble Rabble Rabble!"
McDonALTs	Posted - 2008.08.01 09:04:00 - [65] CCP did the best thing which was to ignore what people "SAY" and look at what people actually "DO". The real issue is that people have forgotten how to pvp without a MWD. AB's are now boosted so AB's are serious MWD replacements now.
Captain Crimson Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.01 09:48:00 - [66] Originally by: McDonALTs CCP did the best thing which was to ignore what people "SAY" and look at what people actually "DO". The real issue is that people have forgotten how to pvp without a MWD. AB's are now boosted so AB's are serious MWD replacements now. I have to agree with this. CCP really dont too much of a damn about the forums as a small percentage of EVE players post there. They just look at their stats as it gives a more general view of things. Ships and forums is now the new Rogue forum in WoW. You should be worried. Originally by: Tuxford I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants).
Gunner Chick	Posted - 2008.08.01 10:47:00 - [67] Edited by: Gunner Chick on 01/08/2008 10:47:52 i love taking in the whines before the storm guess its time to drop ship sizes to maintain that invulnerability for small gang warfare/incursions the nano ***s think... navy ravens going 9600 m/s are fine. interceptors with hg slaves going faster than warp speed are fine(ok, slight exageration but it might as well be warp speed hehe). 6-10 man roaming gangs filled with pure death(falcons, vagas, rapiers, dictors etc) that cant be touched are fine. p.s. this constitutes blobbage since they pwn one to 2 peeps at a time usually or run easily from equal to bigger groups even though their main arguement is that the nerf will promote blobbage plus much more and this all after a already midget size nano nerf. me, a 4 year player, being a forced nano pilot but one who trully enjoys playing my races like they are supposed to be played is welcoming this change..big time. im hoping alot of players will exit that way because tbh, im sick of all the desire for invulnerability bs.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr The Grim Reapers	Posted - 2008.08.01 12:11:00 - [68] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate When your head explodes after your next epic outpouring of e-rage over pixels, can I have your stuff? No. Like I said, Amarr BS V + Large energy turret tech 2, so... I just can't stand people who have their heads so firmly up their asses that they can't see how terrible this nerf is. Did speed need rebalancing? Yeah, nerf Snakes, nerf polycarbs, but don't REMOVE a whole playstyle alltogether for god's sake!
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.01 12:52:00 - [69] The speednerf is ridiculous as it does not only nerf the extremely expensive faction BS speed setups but also the normal 3-4km hacs that is the majority of speed ships. I wont pay billions to make a viable speed hac so its back to the old BS's for me but i wonder how much roaming gangs i will go to with that. Its a gigantic nerf of small gang pvp in 0.0 that makes me wonder if ccp has even tried to consider the implications. Not to mention that this will also be the final nail in the coffin for blaster ships.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.01 12:53:00 - [70] Originally by: Megan Maynard Maybe. But really the game is not as fast paced with the patch, and therefore in my view, not as fun. It was fun screaming around in a frigate going 5000+ m/s easily. Imo slowing everything down gives more room for manouvers in fights. More skill instead of random overshoot or no overshoot luck webs. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.08.01 13:03:00 - [71] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yeah, but lets see how it works out once they adjust/nerf missiles accordingly to the new speeds. Please don't - it will only start a vicious circle of speed and missile nerfs due to the everlasting whine of ratters caught in a belt...
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.01 13:31:00 - [72] Originally by: H Lecter Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yeah, but lets see how it works out once they adjust/nerf missiles accordingly to the new speeds. Please don't - it will only start a vicious circle of speed and missile nerfs due to the everlasting whine of ratters caught in a belt... But missiles are overpowered now. Need to adjust them explo velocities you know. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Chaos Incarnate	Posted - 2008.08.01 13:33:00 - [73] Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 01/08/2008 13:33:05 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Chaos Incarnate When your head explodes after your next epic outpouring of e-rage over pixels, can I have your stuff? No. Like I said, Amarr BS V + Large energy turret tech 2, so... I just can't stand people who have their heads so firmly up their asses that they can't see how terrible this nerf is. Did speed need rebalancing? Yeah, nerf Snakes, nerf polycarbs, but don't REMOVE a whole playstyle alltogether for god's sake! I just can't stand people whose entire response to a perceived unjustified game change is to stamp and scream all over the forum like angry eight year olds. Get on Singularity, test the changes, find new ways around things; post feedback on what is still speed tankable, where you think the nerfs went too far, whatever. Quote: "Rabble Rabble Rabble!" "Just sitting out here saying "Rabble Rabble" isn't going to fix anything!" "But we don't know what else to do!" "Rabble Rabble Rabble!"
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.01 13:46:00 - [74] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate rabble rabble rabble Dude... your face.
Yar0 Russian Thunder Squad Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.08.01 13:48:00 - [75] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 01/08/2008 13:33:05 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Chaos Incarnate When your head explodes after your next epic outpouring of e-rage over pixels, can I have your stuff? No. Like I said, Amarr BS V + Large energy turret tech 2, so... I just can't stand people who have their heads so firmly up their asses that they can't see how terrible this nerf is. Did speed need rebalancing? Yeah, nerf Snakes, nerf polycarbs, but don't REMOVE a whole playstyle alltogether for god's sake! I just can't stand people whose entire response to a perceived unjustified game change is to stamp and scream all over the forum like angry eight year olds. Get on Singularity, test the changes, find new ways around things; post feedback on what is still speed tankable, where you think the nerfs went too far, whatever. Then dont stand ! Better f... ... ! Because ppl had this play style for a very long time ! Because someone couldnt play, they used forums to screw other ppl ! Where did all the training go, minmatar ships, gallente ? No one has any rights to screw ppl that much !
Chaos Incarnate	Posted - 2008.08.01 14:27:00 - [76] Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 01/08/2008 14:27:52 Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Chaos Incarnate rabble rabble rabble Dude... your face. That's all anyone ever says anymore Quote: "Rabble Rabble Rabble!" "Just sitting out here saying "Rabble Rabble" isn't going to fix anything!" "But we don't know what else to do!" "Rabble Rabble Rabble!"
Juleko	Posted - 2008.08.01 15:22:00 - [77] Probably worth noting that the prices of Snakes, Polys, etc will come down following a speed nerf - so posts like "I'm not spending billions to only go 5km/sec!" are kinda short-sighted.
fmercury Beef Sceptor	Posted - 2008.08.01 16:15:00 - [78] Edited by: fmercury on 01/08/2008 16:16:06 Edited by: fmercury on 01/08/2008 16:15:17 Originally by: Baudolino I see both mistakes as a possible indication of GMs and developers having less intimate knowledge of game mechanics then they had only 2 years ago. I see CCP relying in both cases on players with even less understanding of the mechanics they are discussing. With a well constructed, grammatically sound argument, there are only a few ways to shine here as a complete idiot. Telling CCP you know EVE better than they do is one of them. EVE was here before everyone was traveling 5 Kms or docking in a pod, and it will be there after. As the Nanoers have been telling everyone for some time: Adapt or die.
Barsexual	Posted - 2008.08.01 16:28:00 - [79] Edited by: Barsexual on 01/08/2008 16:28:12 Originally by: McDonALTs CCP did the best thing which was to ignore what people "SAY" and look at what people actually "DO". The real issue is that people have forgotten how to pvp without a MWD. AB's are now boosted so AB's are serious MWD replacements now. it seems like most things that had a chance to escape a t2 bubble camp now will have almost no chance after the changes since mass has increased on most ships which affects acceleration AB to escape something like that is just lol
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.01 16:35:00 - [80] Originally by: Barsexual Edited by: Barsexual on 01/08/2008 16:28:12 Originally by: McDonALTs CCP did the best thing which was to ignore what people "SAY" and look at what people actually "DO". The real issue is that people have forgotten how to pvp without a MWD. AB's are now boosted so AB's are serious MWD replacements now. it seems like most things that had a chance to escape a t2 bubble camp now will have almost no chance after the changes since mass has increased on most ships which affects acceleration AB to escape something like that is just lol poeples like you make me sick. all you want to do is run run runn. at least after patch you have to commit to the fight. you aren't supposed to escape bubble camps. try bringing your own fleet to figth them or blow up the bubble. tactics and brains get some.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.01 16:37:00 - [81] Originally by: Stab Wounds poeples like you make me sick. all you want to do is run run runn. at least after patch you have to commit to the fight. you aren't supposed to escape bubble camps. try bringing your own fleet to figth them or blow up the bubble. tactics and brains get some. Right, bigger blob wins. That makes eve FUN! You want a 5 man roaming gang? They should COMMIT to a fight with your 40 man gate camp because you have a bubble. Seriously, that's stupid.
Hanso Sparxx We The People	Posted - 2008.08.01 16:39:00 - [82] Most people complaining about the nano nerf have never been on the test server. True story. ------------------ We the People is recruiting!
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.01 16:41:00 - [83] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Stab Wounds poeples like you make me sick. all you want to do is run run runn. at least after patch you have to commit to the fight. you aren't supposed to escape bubble camps. try bringing your own fleet to figth them or blow up the bubble. tactics and brains get some. Right, bigger blob wins. That makes eve FUN! You want a 5 man roaming gang? They should COMMIT to a fight with your 40 man gate camp because you have a bubble. Seriously, that's stupid. if you don't have friends you lose. just like in real life. if you don't have friends and family in real life you deserve what you suffer too
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2008.08.01 16:49:00 - [84] Edited by: Baudolino on 01/08/2008 16:50:03 Originally by: Stab Wounds ...you aren't supposed to escape bubble camps.... This is a perfect example of what i call "starcraft" gaming in EVE. This frame of mind that is utterly hostile to the inherent fluidity of EVE. A black and white understanding that organizes ths games' content in finite categories in such a way as to have it make permanent sense. I`m not against a re-organization of how speed works. I think CCP is going to far though and i have stated why. "Nano" as clearly defined in my previous thread on "nanos" is a valuable asset to the tactics and gamestyles of EVE, and there are others ways of bringing it closer in line with other styles beyond this total revamp. The change reeks of the fact that the nano discussion is void of an understanding of the 3 different speed categories in EVE flight and their underlying mechanics.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.01 16:56:00 - [85] Originally by: Stab Wounds if you don't have friends you lose. just like in real life. if you don't have friends and family in real life you deserve what you suffer too 'Cause EVE is modeled after real life, right? That's what makes games fun, modeling them after real life? It's a game, it should play like a game and be fun like a game. Fun games don't say 40 > 20, you all die. It's stupid.
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.01 17:01:00 - [86] Edited by: Stab Wounds on 01/08/2008 17:04:01 Originally by: Baudolino Edited by: Baudolino on 01/08/2008 16:50:03 Originally by: Stab Wounds ...you aren't supposed to escape bubble camps.... This is a perfect example of what i call "starcraft" gaming in EVE. This frame of mind that is utterly hostile to the inherent fluidity of EVE. A black and white understanding that organizes ths games' content in finite categories in such a way as to have it make permanent sense. I`m not against a re-organization of how speed works. I think CCP is going to far though and i have stated why. "Nano" as clearly defined in my previous thread on "nanos" is a valuable asset to the tactics and gamestyles of EVE, and there are others ways of bringing it closer in line with other styles beyond this total revamp. The change reeks of the fact that the nano discussion is void of an understanding of the 3 different speed categories in EVE flight and their underlying mechanics. bubbles were made to stop people from warping away and having to COMMIT to the fight if they don't work or there's an easy way around them then they are broken. like currently if you put up a bubble a macharial can easape easily back to gate with a mwd even with 2-3 90% webs on him, he just float back
Atlas Oracle Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.08.01 18:53:00 - [87] Originally by: Stab Wounds if you don't have friends you lose. just like in real life. if you don't have friends and family in real life you deserve what you suffer too just, wow
Nathanial Victor Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:10:00 - [88] Edited by: Nathanial Victor on 01/08/2008 19:11:06 Originally by: Stab Wounds if you don't have friends and family in real life you deserve what you suffer too bravo good sir. BRAV-O /slow long loud clap "one more spam thread will get you a warning. - Thanks Hutch. " isn't a warning of a warning a warning? or just a warning of a warning? didnt he just get 'the warning'? my head hurts
amidoingthisright Amarr Strictly For The CAOD	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:51:00 - [89] tl;dr
Deschenus Maximus Amarr The Grim Reapers	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:53:00 - [90] Also, Stab Wounds, you're just stupid as hell. "You deserve to suffer"? Christ, go hang yourself and do humankind a favor.
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.01 20:00:00 - [91] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Also, Stab Wounds, you're just stupid as hell. "You deserve to suffer"? Christ, go hang yourself and do humankind a favor. reported
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.01 20:06:00 - [92] Originally by: Hanso Sparxx Most people complaining about the nano nerf have never been on the test server. True story. In this case the test server is utterly worthless. Vote against the nano nerf!
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.01 20:07:00 - [93] Originally by: Stab Wounds Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Also, Stab Wounds, you're just stupid as hell. "You deserve to suffer"? Christ, go hang yourself and do humankind a favor. reported I'M TELLING MOM!!!!
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.01 20:14:00 - [94] Originally by: Stab Wounds reported Seems that Jonny JoJo turned caldari, added in some lyria, some general douchebaggery and even more unjustified reasoning and race hate. GG troll, let's go back to caldari online.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr The Grim Reapers	Posted - 2008.08.01 20:45:00 - [95] Originally by: Stab Wounds Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Also, Stab Wounds, you're just stupid as hell. "You deserve to suffer"? Christ, go hang yourself and do humankind a favor. reported Ok... yeah. Well looks like we'll both get banned. Me for the "hang yourself" comment, you for the "have friends or you deserve to suffer". GG, Stab.
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:12:00 - [96] Please don`t derail the thread because one mans thoughtless comments. The thread has grown longer then i intended, but has remained surprisingly civil up to this point..
Hyron Corp 1 Allstars The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:15:00 - [97] I want battleships to be king again. IT WAS SO MUCH MORE FUN. Nerf nanos to hell.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr The Grim Reapers	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:24:00 - [98] Originally by: Hyron I want battleships to be king again. They will be.
Kyusoath Orillian Viziam	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:32:00 - [99] Edited by: Kyusoath Orillian on 01/08/2008 21:34:35 Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Stab Wounds poeples like you make me sick. all you want to do is run run runn. at least after patch you have to commit to the fight. you aren't supposed to escape bubble camps. try bringing your own fleet to figth them or blow up the bubble. tactics and brains get some. Right, bigger blob wins. That makes eve FUN! You want a 5 man roaming gang? They should COMMIT to a fight with your 40 man gate camp because you have a bubble. Seriously, that's stupid. better tactics and a smaller blob could counter that, or yes a bigger blob, or you could scout the gate (nano roamers don't need scouts as they can just leave if they don't like whats there) and instead of carefree nano cowardice you go somewhere else. do you think its ok that a tiny nano gang can slip thru a 50+ man BS gate camp with bubbles ? i do not, i think they only thing that should be able to go thru such a gate is a gang able to deal with the threat on the other side, not just runaway using nano exploits. that means FIGHTING player Vs player, instead of nano ganking anything and if it stands a chance of hurting you just leaving with no loss at all. A massive bubble camp cannot just leave instantly if the fight looks risky, nano gangs can and it is wrong. camping a gate means saying 'anyone that comes here will be attacked and we accept those consequences whatever they may be' nano roaming is saying ' i'm going to attack you, but if you fight back i'm going to leave and there is nothing you can do about it.' personally, i think that all the changes are good but i would increase the AB boost to around 200%+, increase web range and remove either the damage bonuses or the speed bonuses of the vagabond. (ok maybe not, i just hate that ship) i fly blaster boats mostly and feel that these changes are fine, and that if i am in range to have my MWD shut off i can do that to my enemy too
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:44:00 - [100] Originally by: Juleko Probably worth noting that the prices of Snakes, Polys, etc will come down following a speed nerf - so posts like "I'm not spending billions to only go 5km/sec!" are kinda short-sighted. Will those who already have snakes and polys get reimbursed?
Yar0 Russian Thunder Squad Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.08.01 22:00:00 - [101] Edited by: Yar0 on 01/08/2008 22:02:59 Originally by: Stab Wounds Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Stab Wounds poeples like you make me sick. all you want to do is run run runn. at least after patch you have to commit to the fight. you aren't supposed to escape bubble camps. try bringing your own fleet to figth them or blow up the bubble. tactics and brains get some. Right, bigger blob wins. That makes eve FUN! You want a 5 man roaming gang? They should COMMIT to a fight with your 40 man gate camp because you have a bubble. Seriously, that's stupid. if you don't have friends you lose. just like in real life. if you don't have friends and family in real life you deserve what you suffer too You are f..g brilliant player I guees...probably never ever been to 0.0 !!! Try and roam after the patch with a small gang !!! GOOD LUCK !!! And nowdays if you have few nanoships, it doesnt mean that you can jump throug a gate camp with a large bublle, unless the people who are bubbling you are clueless idiots ! And it seems to me that you are one of those stupid ppl who cant deal these days with nano ! Whining on the forums is your best weapon
Maeltstome Minmatar Suicidal Office Clerks	Posted - 2008.08.01 23:41:00 - [102] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'm on the same set of HG Snakes for over two years now. What is that telling you? That you're a pathetic lowsec ganker who plates the crap out of every BS he flies? Or that like every other Eve player, you only support changes that directly benefit your play style ? /trolling-flame ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Deschenus Maximus Amarr The Grim Reapers	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:58:00 - [103] Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian not just runaway using nano exploits. Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian runaway using nano exploits. Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian using nano exploits. Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian nano exploits. Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian exploits. This statement has invalidated pretty much everything you said.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.02 05:32:00 - [104] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 01/08/2008 14:27:52 Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Chaos Incarnate rabble rabble rabble Dude... your face. That's all anyone ever says anymore You have beautiful eyes.
ishkurz Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2008.08.02 11:45:00 - [105] Edited by: ishkurz on 02/08/2008 11:51:39 Baudolino I agree with you 100% ccp have a major problem with this nerf-circle, its not makeing sense also in the end its more work and problem for themselfs as they need to buff the nerfed ships i order to make people fly them... The moste stupid thing in that Dev-blog is that ccp actually say that they are nerfing webifiers to make the combat less STATIC and when you get webbed it all comes down to who has the best tank... there word's!!! And then they nerf speed That kind of double talk is the worst I think ccp should at least be honest about WHY they are doing this nerf they dont want to lose there customers that get killed time after time and go cry on the forums...its alot of them. Next time its something else they wont stop dying just because nano is gone but they will get the fast roaming-gang out of there way.
Calden De'Altos	Posted - 2008.08.03 06:41:00 - [106] Edited by: Calden De''Altos on 03/08/2008 06:45:26 If CCP claims that, at the current speeds some ships can reach, the game physics break down (ie. missles and drones can never hit there targets) then why should they allow players to make ships that operate out of the game's mechainc's threshold? The very first blog about this fix states that many ships can stack speed buffs to the point where the game can not properly caculate impacts and damage. If this is the case, why should anyone be able to fly an invincable ship?! It would be like allowing a Caldari to have so many shield buffing abilities that you could never bring their shields down. Or for an Amarr that can stack so many armor buffing abilities that his armor becomes impenatatable. All of these examples are silly and are not balanced towards fair gameplay. CCP will not make everyone fly at the speed of a freighter. Pilots who wish to use speed as a way to deal with damage will still be able to do so, and have lots of viable ships to choose from. The speed fix will alos allow other players to fly a wider variation of ship types and styles because they no longer have to worry about running into a nanoship that they can not hit. For those of you that spent billions of ISK and months and months of training to become so specialized in nanoship piloting, you should have realized that your days were numbered. No game developer in their right mind would let any player have the ability to make anything that grants them god-like invunrability. If you don't like that answer, then accept this fact: the more specialized a creature becomes, the greater chance it has of dying off when its enviroment changes and the less the enviroment needs to change to cause it. Luckly you nanopilots did not need to die to learn this fact of life; just lose alot of ISK and time. Looking at things from a broader perspective, its always funny to go back and read old posts talking about previous nerfs that were going to "make everyone quit Eve." I think CCP has heard Chicken Little cry "The sky is falling!" enough times to realize they just need to ignore him.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.03 06:50:00 - [107] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 03/08/2008 06:51:02 Originally by: Bellum Eternus You have it the wrong way around. Nano noobs are 'Starcraft', 'traditional' players (everyone else) are 'Total Annihilation' players who are intent on playing the game with it's full range of ships and weapons fully operational. If you're in a ship that can avoid 100% of any weapon and escape combat at will (I fly a HG Snake nano Vaga/Sac/Ishtar/Zealot btw) and don't think it's broken, you need to get your brain checked. There is simply nothing else to say but Quote For Truth. Though, I don't think that it's all the nano modules', rigs' and implants' fault. Also, be sure to check out my proposal for an alternative it's right below this thread you can't miss it holy shit the words are worse than goon argh.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.03 07:28:00 - [108] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Stab Wounds reported Seems that Jonny JoJo turned caldari, added in some lyria, some general douchebaggery and even more unjustified reasoning and race hate. GG troll, let's go back to caldari online. Nice one Astro, I almost had Coke coming out my nose. (the drinkable kind you get in a can, not the white fluffy stuff ) Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.03 07:30:00 - [109] Originally by: Maeltstome Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'm on the same set of HG Snakes for over two years now. What is that telling you? That you're a pathetic lowsec ganker who plates the crap out of every BS he flies? Or that like every other Eve player, you only support changes that directly benefit your play style ? /trolling-flame My guns suck my cap dry. Of course I have to use plates. I'm not as lucky as Caldari or Minmatar players. I fly all four races loser. Grow up. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Dendo Ordoss Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.08.03 09:14:00 - [110] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Or maybe 14k/sec is broken? Hell, even 5.5k/sec is broken. And this is coming from someone who flies nano ships. Not because I like it, but because I have to since that's all there is. only thing it tells me is that you havnt taken those implants out to 0,0 a lot
Red Thunder Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.03 09:34:00 - [111] Originally by: Stab Wounds Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Also, Stab Wounds, you're just stupid as hell. "You deserve to suffer"? Christ, go hang yourself and do humankind a favor. reported agreed, stfu stab wounds you stupid noob Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines
Chaos Incarnate Has No Face	Posted - 2008.08.03 09:39:00 - [112] Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 03/08/2008 09:41:03 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Chaos Incarnate I just can't stand people whose entire response to a perceived unjustified game change is to stamp and scream all over the forum like angry eight year olds. Where did I see that behaviour before? Oh yeah, from the nerf nanos crowd. So you saw an epic amount of stupid being spewed all over the forum, and rather than correct it just figured "Hey, I'll scream and whine too! That'll make it even!" Oh, protip: If you want to see changes reversed, a clever idea is to make reasoned arguments as to why they're wrong rather than whining that you can't get your way. Quote: Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Get on Singularity, test the changes, find new ways around things; post feedback on what is still speed tankable, where you think the nerfs went too far, whatever. There's no way around getting ass**d when your papertanked ship crawls around like a turtle. I strongly disliked HACs before I started nanoing them; looks like I'll strongly dislike them once more. Can I have your HACs then, if you're too damned lazy to figure out how to use them? Quote:** "Rabble Rabble Rabble!" "Just sitting out here saying "Rabble Rabble" isn't going to fix anything!" "But we don't know what else to do!" "Rabble Rabble Rabble!"
Red Thunder Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.03 09:56:00 - [113] i agree with him, now the tier 2 bcs do a better job at everything....so why fly 2x the cost hacs? Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines
BOBHOPE Minmatar Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.03 10:28:00 - [114] why dont they just have 2 classes of webbers like warp jamming? shorter and stronger longer and weaker then skills to increase distance and strength? then why dont ppl use huginns and rapiers for a job theyre designed for? then leave 'nano' to diaf unless ya cba to form up andd efend against a valid tactic? /me shrugs
Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.03 12:40:00 - [115] OP, no disrespect intended, but I find your original post too convoluted and too general that I can't pin down exactly what is the exact issue that you're trying to convey. The bulk of your original post tells about your own personal definition of the term "nano", yes very educational. However, most importantly I don't see an argument that compares to something specific in the dev blog. The closest line that I can perhaps pin down is "the function and purpose of "nano" is valid and should not be removed". Yes, ok ... and? I wasted my time reading this, and I'm almost sure CCP will feel the same way too.
Nightsheir	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:25:00 - [116] Edited by: Nightsheir on 03/08/2008 23:27:48 What i see is ; There are certain people around 5 to 10 posting responses to every* single* topic that supports the patch. They are doing everything they can to look like a crowd , spoiling every single thread , working in groups with same mind set to try make it look like there is more people against the patch than supporters. Looks like those handful of people are about to lose their precisious tools. I wonder why they were so precisious. CCP has thought about this patch and its side effects more than anybody with ingame experience . And everybody knows that speed fix was in the cooking phase for longer than 1 year. It was those* people's choice to hold on to the exploit more every day and now just cant give up. Game balance will make you give up, and come to the same level where the rest of eve is. Your makeup crowd will only prove how much you were into this game-mechanics exploit. And yes, boost amarr . Tired of playing with laser toyguns.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:52:00 - [117] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Originally by: Megan Maynard Maybe. But really the game is not as fast paced with the patch, and therefore in my view, not as fun. It was fun screaming around in a frigate going 5000+ m/s easily. It's even more fun hanging onto a HAC in close orbit with a Wolf. Try it. Good times. Did that, agreed. I don't disagree with most of the changes. Just the giant nerf bat to MWD.
Sha'ha'dem	Posted - 2008.08.04 03:59:00 - [118] What I am getting from the opener is that he thinks he deserves an instant win button just because he has several years worth of sp and isk and does not want anyone to be able to pvp in a bs just because he does not like to.
General Zamiel Amarr Angeli Iustitiorum	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:21:00 - [119] I love reading people's attempts to change the Dev's minds, especially when they are actually well thought out and written. Not that I don't get a good laugh out of the the simpletons who just mindlessly complain because some facet of their gaming has been altered. Of course let us not forget that at the core of this, people who give organized and intelligent arguments and those that just spew garbage, are essentially both struggling against the inevitable current of a changing landscape. Call this nerfing or balancing, legitimate or unfair, hell even call it nearsighted, it matters not. If CCP even gives your argument a passing thought they've done you a greater service than they are obliged to. Let us not forget that is not a Democracy. We are entirely subject to the whims of the Dev's, and the fact that they attempt to be as reasonable as possible is only testament to their concern for the player base. It is this pilot's opinion that CCP knows the game better than any of us ever can, seeing as they invented it and maintain it. Truly, it is nothing short of pretentious of us to question their motives or methodology. Now then, rather then trash wildly against the winds of change, let us do what we players do best, which is certainly not attempt to tell the Dev's how they ought to run their game, rather it is roll with the punches and adapt. Memento Mori.
Ihrda Siharkhail	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:57:00 - [120] Originally by: General Zamiel I love reading people's attempts to change the Dev's minds, especially when they are actually well thought out and written. Not that I don't get a good laugh out of the the simpletons who just mindlessly complain because some facet of their gaming has been altered. Of course let us not forget that at the core of this, people who give organized and intelligent arguments and those that just spew garbage, are essentially both struggling against the inevitable current of a changing landscape. Call this nerfing or balancing, legitimate or unfair, hell even call it nearsighted, it matters not. If CCP even gives your argument a passing thought they've done you a greater service than they are obliged to. Let us not forget that is not a Democracy. We are entirely subject to the whims of the Dev's, and the fact that they attempt to be as reasonable as possible is only testament to their concern for the player base. It is this pilot's opinion that CCP knows the game better than any of us ever can, seeing as they invented it and maintain it. Truly, it is nothing short of pretentious of us to question their motives or methodology. Now then, rather then trash wildly against the winds of change, let us do what we players do best, which is certainly not attempt to tell the Dev's how they ought to run their game, rather it is roll with the punches and adapt. tell that to every other mmo that the developers have ****ed up

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