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Dear CCP, RE: speed changes....

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Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry United Star Federation	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:34:00 - [1] Well, at one level I can applaud your decision to get rid of nanoships. They are a serious problem to counter for most people who do not fly a specialized ship to do so and brings them back to reasonable levels of engagement for the rest of us (FYI: I never had a problem with nanos, explained below). Personally I have always liked how Eve had the open-styled gameplay, the whole sandbox concept of 'do what you want in an open-ended universe as long as it stays within the rules'. I have accepted the fact that the nanoships exist and do not begrudge them their ships+fittings. What they have done is done by anyone willing to invest the training time, isk, and implants for a nanoship; still they get blown up on occasion setting their owners back billions of isk. This route is open to anyone willing to invest what is needed, and I like that about Eve, but this is just a bad overall idea. You have catered into the whiners that are unable to counter nanos when there exists a viable way to do so, they are just unwilling or unwanting to train up for this counter; the 'easy fix' is desired by such a vocal minority that, frankly, should be ignored. I cannot in good faith say that what you're doing is a good idea. Sure, nerf the nanoships by all means, but has ANYONE stopped to consider the inherent problems this causes for a whole specialized class of ships? I'm talking Interceptors and their pilots. Your proposed changes are going to be the end of this ship type/class. We interceptor pilots rely on our speed to be our tank, since the hulls are so paper-thin. With these changes that you're going to put forth, we are going to ourselves be nerfed, and our one advantage that we use to avoid incoming enemy fire will be destroyed. Your changes to the faction/complex MWD's to bring them in line with T1/T2 gear is a joke. There is a reason WHY the cost is 30mil+ for a Gistii-B 1mn MWD: they give us a NEEDED boost to speed. Your changes to nanofibers are a joke; we need the Agility bonus to be able to achieve high transversal speeds. Your changes to the Polycarbonate rigs are a joke; we lose our speed, (to say nothing of the 50mil+ we paid for EACH rig that we cannot recover) further reducing the effectiveness of our tank. Now, I know that I might be trolled for this post, but so be it. From what I have seen, there has barely been any discussion whatsoever in the comments thread about the dev blog about how this will impact the interceptors. SOMEONE has to speak up over this, and as an inty pilot, I will do so to bring attention to this. CCP, not only will this help stop the nanos, but you are killing a profession that many of us have spent much months and isk input into fitting out our ships, only to have all this hard work undone in one patch. I urge and implore you to reconsider these changes and how it will effect us inty pilots as well in addition to the nanoships. PLEASE do not nerf a viable profession that's been around for years just to get rid of a potential problem. I hope that other inty pilots would be willing to sound off in this thread on their views on how this 'nano nerf' will impact us.
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry United Star Federation	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:34:00 - [2] Well, at one level I can applaud your decision to get rid of nanoships. They are a serious problem to counter for most people who do not fly a specialized ship to do so and brings them back to reasonable levels of engagement for the rest of us (FYI: I never had a problem with nanos, explained below). Personally I have always liked how Eve had the open-styled gameplay, the whole sandbox concept of 'do what you want in an open-ended universe as long as it stays within the rules'. I have accepted the fact that the nanoships exist and do not begrudge them their ships+fittings. What they have done is done by anyone willing to invest the training time, isk, and implants for a nanoship; still they get blown up on occasion setting their owners back billions of isk. This route is open to anyone willing to invest what is needed, and I like that about Eve, but this is just a bad overall idea. You have catered into the whiners that are unable to counter nanos when there exists a viable way to do so, they are just unwilling or unwanting to train up for this counter; the 'easy fix' is desired by such a vocal minority that, frankly, should be ignored. I cannot in good faith say that what you're doing is a good idea. Sure, nerf the nanoships by all means, but has ANYONE stopped to consider the inherent problems this causes for a whole specialized class of ships? I'm talking Interceptors and their pilots. Your proposed changes are going to be the end of this ship type/class. We interceptor pilots rely on our speed to be our tank, since the hulls are so paper-thin. With these changes that you're going to put forth, we are going to ourselves be nerfed, and our one advantage that we use to avoid incoming enemy fire will be destroyed. Your changes to the faction/complex MWD's to bring them in line with T1/T2 gear is a joke. There is a reason WHY the cost is 30mil+ for a Gistii-B 1mn MWD: they give us a NEEDED boost to speed. Your changes to nanofibers are a joke; we need the Agility bonus to be able to achieve high transversal speeds. Your changes to the Polycarbonate rigs are a joke; we lose our speed, (to say nothing of the 50mil+ we paid for EACH rig that we cannot recover) further reducing the effectiveness of our tank. Now, I know that I might be trolled for this post, but so be it. From what I have seen, there has barely been any discussion whatsoever in the comments thread about the dev blog about how this will impact the interceptors. SOMEONE has to speak up over this, and as an inty pilot, I will do so to bring attention to this. CCP, not only will this help stop the nanos, but you are killing a profession that many of us have spent much months and isk input into fitting out our ships, only to have all this hard work undone in one patch. I urge and implore you to reconsider these changes and how it will effect us inty pilots as well in addition to the nanoships. PLEASE do not nerf a viable profession that's been around for years just to get rid of a potential problem. I hope that other inty pilots would be willing to sound off in this thread on their views on how this 'nano nerf' will impact us.
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:36:00 - [3] Re-read the blog. Look at the chart again. This is an interceptor buff. ---------------- Ambulation Answers
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:36:00 - [4] Re-read the blog. Look at the chart again. This is an interceptor buff. ---------------- Ambulation Answers
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:39:00 - [5] sigh post #237645 in nano changes....
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:39:00 - [6] sigh post #237645 in nano changes....
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:40:00 - [7] To bad the feedback thread is full of trolling and pointless arguing while the real feed back is getting buried in it. Because of the fighting all the nano pilots are having on that thread the speed changes may stay as they intended, if for once they would stop bashing each other on the feedback thread they might get somewhere. Last Dev replied said something they think there is an issue with close range ships particularly the shortest ranged of them all the blaster boats, then an issue with many of the smaller ships unable to deal with fighting larger ships as they are still to effective against the smaller craft and of course some nerfs didnt get to sisi properly and the versions sisi got where overnerfed this should be fixed by now. Im still digging though the thread looking for any more dev replies and responses to changes. New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:40:00 - [8] To bad the feedback thread is full of trolling and pointless arguing while the real feed back is getting buried in it. Because of the fighting all the nano pilots are having on that thread the speed changes may stay as they intended, if for once they would stop bashing each other on the feedback thread they might get somewhere. Last Dev replied said something they think there is an issue with close range ships particularly the shortest ranged of them all the blaster boats, then an issue with many of the smaller ships unable to deal with fighting larger ships as they are still to effective against the smaller craft and of course some nerfs didnt get to sisi properly and the versions sisi got where overnerfed this should be fixed by now. Im still digging though the thread looking for any more dev replies and responses to changes. New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry United Star Federation	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:51:00 - [9] Originally by: Lui Kai Re-read the blog. Look at the chart again. This is an interceptor buff. It's an interceptor buff in that the nanoships are now nerfed to hell and back. But while it's a nerf to them, it's not so much of a buff to us. We now travel much slower than before (going off the chart, we'll do no better than 4km/s, assuming I read it right), which as I stated in my OP, means we have less of our tank to rely upon. Speed is the inty tank, and if we're nerfed by half our top speed, we're now subject to easier gun tracking by losing transversal, easy to hit with missiles that WILL hit us at our effective engagement range, and easily blown up by drones that can now track us. This is why I class it as also a nerf to the inties as well. Originally by: Nova Fox To bad the feedback thread is full of trolling and pointless arguing while the real feed back is getting buried in it. Because of the fighting all the nano pilots are having on that thread the speed changes may stay as they intended, if for once they would stop bashing each other on the feedback thread they might get somewhere. Last Dev replied said something they think there is an issue with close range ships particularly the shortest ranged of them all the blaster boats, then an issue with many of the smaller ships unable to deal with fighting larger ships as they are still to effective against the smaller craft and of course some nerfs didnt get to sisi properly and the versions sisi got where overnerfed this should be fixed by now. Im still digging though the thread looking for any more dev replies and responses to changes. Nova, if you're willing to, post those changes here in this thread so that they're not buried. I want to have a serious, intelligent discussion over these changes and very much would like to avoid the massive trolling rampant in that thread. I look at this as more a thread for inty pilots to talk about how the changes effect us, and not so much for the nanoship crowd.
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:55:00 - [10] The chart, at 4k/s, represents a T2 MWD only on that shiptype. Not a completely locked max. Log on Sisi and have a look at the changes for yourself. ---------------- Ambulation Answers
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.08.02 04:58:00 - [11] Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/08/2008 05:01:49 basic tech 2 fits for interceptors are going as fast or faster with the changes. only snakes, nanos, boosters and overdrives are getting nerfed on the interceptor set up. plus everything else is going slower plus webs a weaker plus scrams shut down MWD anything that could ever catch an interceptor will be met with a scram and a web, which will slower speeds even slower than webs do now on TQ, a total of 93% or so. This means interceptors will now not opnly be the fastest ships in the game, but basic tech 2 fits will be viable and not caught by cruisers in expensive set ups. I mean fast is one thing but well :P So yeah interceptors are ok don't worry the world is not ending :) edit: also CCP are looking at nerfing missiles so that they are inline with current mechcanics, so really this change is all about keeping game play the same without the ability to move at 10,000 a second just to run away. And mostly because making missles faster to catch them broke the game engine in tests :P so with missiles doing less damage to interceptors it will be more awesome! and a final note I believe personally they will look at and improve defenders. Might be fun to fit one or two if they work to an inty so that we can negate that damage? Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.02 05:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Lui Kai Log on Sisi and have a look at the changes for yourself. Already did. Intys will be dying in droves if CCP doesn't tweak inty speeds to just barely take damage from missiles and drones unlike the omgpwnu damage they get now on sisi. As it stands even with an intelligently fit afterburner inty your still gonna get pwnd by the first missile spammer or any ship with a drone bay. Hacs getting the nerfbat for ludicrus speed a-ok. Intys getting it up the butt by taking away their role based tank is not a-ok. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.02 05:11:00 - [13] Edited by: Nova Fox on 02/08/2008 05:13:54 Currently there are issues with guns strikes hitting smaller class ships too, I forsee an increase in tracking disruptors. But overall changes, basic fit frigates and dessies go faster now, maxout fits go slower, interceptors are king of speed with eas and tech 1 frigates shortly afterwards. Battleships are not only slower but painfully slow to reach those speeds, this imo is a stealth blob nerf because a ship that just hopped out of warp would take longer to get a new align and battlespeed going for it. Afterburners for most frigates are laughing at webbers but there may be additional boosts to this modules to mkae them useful on cruisers and battleships and possibly increase frigate survival. You can no longer pulse an mwd and its hurts alot to sacked which is worse than one web currently on tranq, 96% speed reduction. They are talking about unnerfing the nanofiber now that everything else is nerfed. As mother moon mentioned they are most likely going to tweak missiles to be in line and hopefully get the percisions properly lined up as well. Sure its a missile nerf but it should be unnoticable when introduced with the speed nerf. There are some stats monkies out there interceptors arent rapable by missile unless you got an issue tanking 40 damage a strike. New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.08.02 05:14:00 - [14] Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/08/2008 05:14:38 Edited by: MotherMoon on 02/08/2008 05:13:54 Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/08/2008 05:06:25 Originally by: Lui Kai Log on Sisi and have a look at the changes for yourself. Already did. Intys will be dying in droves if CCP doesn't tweak inty speeds to just barely take damage from missiles and drones unlike the omgpwnu damage they get now on sisi. As it stands even with an intelligently fit afterburner inty your still gonna get pwnd by the first missile spammer or any ship with a drone bay. Hacs getting the nerfbat for ludicrus speed a-ok. Intys getting it up the butt by taking away their role based tank is not a-ok. Originally by: MotherMoon basic tech 2 fits for interceptors are going as fast or faster with the changes. Got stats? I'll go get some I think it was my claw it was going faster than I remember by like 10m/s while using an t2MWD and nothing else. no wait...edit that it's like 20m/s slower :P Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.02 05:18:00 - [15] Originally by: MotherMoon so with missiles doing less damage to interceptors it will be more awesome! and a final note I believe personally they will look at and improve defenders. Might be fun to fit one or two if they work to an inty so that we can negate that damage? If missiles and drones are balanced to not wtfpwn intys but still do what they are supposed to do to other ship types after the patch then all is ok. However it is not on sisi yet so my whines about the inty nerf will continue until otherwise slayed. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.08.02 05:18:00 - [16] Originally by: Nova Fox Edited by: Nova Fox on 02/08/2008 05:13:54 Currently there are issues with guns strikes hitting smaller class ships too, I forsee an increase in tracking disruptors. I for one would like a rebalance in sig radius, but I think they are worried about putting it to slow as it counts for locking time as well... but yeah the effect should multiple the transversal a little more so the angular velocity is more important to the point where a battleship sized gun has issues hitting a 300m/s frigate unless it has shield extenders on or something. Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.08.02 05:19:00 - [17] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: MotherMoon so with missiles doing less damage to interceptors it will be more awesome! and a final note I believe personally they will look at and improve defenders. Might be fun to fit one or two if they work to an inty so that we can negate that damage? If missiles and drones are balanced to not wtfpwn intys but still do what they are supposed to do to other ship types after the patch then all is ok. However it is not on sisi yet so my whines about the inty nerf will continue until otherwise slayed. As well as your whines should continue :) I just happen to see the glass half full while you see it half empty :) Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.02 05:29:00 - [18] Originally by: MotherMoon I'll go get some I think it was my claw it was going faster than I remember by like 10m/s while using an t2MWD and nothing else. no wait...edit that it's like 20m/s slower :P Dude. Ginsing is your friend. Before the nerf my Claw was hitting nearly 9000ms with a t2 mwd, two overdrives and two nanofibers with no rigs. Now after the nerf on sisi I get barely over 5000ms with three overdrives, 1 nanofibre and two thruster rigs whice are all stacking nerfed to each other unlike the previous setup. Thats a bit moar than a 20ms loss mate. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Bo Bojangles Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.08.02 06:45:00 - [19] Welp,.. at least we won't need tracking computers anymore,...
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.08.02 06:50:00 - [20] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2008 06:52:08 Originally by: Zeba btw that barely over 5000ms is with all nav skills at level 5. A player with the normal level 4 skills is gonna get his shit handed to him by Hobgoblins ffs.. From a thread in the Ships & Mods forum: Originally by: aak88 Originally by: Kneebone Well I got my Crow the day before they announced the nerf so I'm a little disappointed, but o well. I've enjoyed it so far! My current setup is as follows: Highs: whatever Mids: 1x Gistii B-Type 1MN MWD (%631) 1x Caldari Navy Scram Lows: 2x Nanofiber II's 1x Overdrive Rigs: 2x Aux Truster I Nav 5 Acceleration Control 3(training 4) Highspeed Manuvering 4 Evasive Manuvering 5 Spaceship Command 5 My standard speed is 732m/s My MWD speed is 7552m/s non overloaded My MWD speed at 21km is roughly 6,600-6,800m/s I am wondering what my speeds would be after the patch and some recommendations as to what I would need to do to get back to the 7.5kms mark for MWD. I do not have any speed implants and will not be investing in anything like a Snake set. I've tested with a different setup that puts me at the 4,500 mark and the difference is obvious (and deadly to me IMO). Thanks in advance for the answers I have a nearly similar setup, cept better skills. base speed: 718 m/s mwd speed: 8668 m/s orbit at 25 km is around 6887 m/s These stats are my latest test on sisi. You can still be invulnerable. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.02 07:27:00 - [21] 6km/s on a frigate is good, that means he cant solo a whole fleet anymore. New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister
IRevolution	Posted - 2008.08.02 08:35:00 - [22] note to devs: If speed nerf on the mwd is going to effect the capaictor penalty. I see the t2 mwd does -17% cap penalty now. If this is the case I suggest you make fixes to the galentte hull class 'Thorax' as it's now bonus '-5% to mwd penalty' is useless at level 5.
Galan Amarias Amarr The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.02 08:54:00 - [23] When I first got my Crusader, a few years back, I loved it. I laughed at the "idiots" fitting MWD to their interceptors, Sig rad bonus negated by sig penalty. I was able to make 1.5ish km/s and at 10km that was plenty to avoid most turret based fire. With a sig of 20m I had next to zero dammage from missles and turrets whiffed badly, killed every frigate I caught, sometimes several at a time and owned several cruisers. I was able to dictate range in most engagments and ran and hid when enemies were too big. Because it was slow, pre rig slots, I had adaptive plate and a heatsink in my lows. The armor repper could keep up with all incomming pain. I miss that setup being viable. The nerf will make AB inty's possible again. With the nos nerf and the web nerf that little ship will be dangerous. -Galan Nano whines the fastest. CSM fails nano
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.02 09:31:00 - [24] Edited by: Stab Wounds on 02/08/2008 09:32:07 Originally by: Nova Fox 6km/s on a frigate is good, that means he cant solo a whole fleet anymore. This. Intys weren't meant to be solowtfpwn mobiles that they are today. They needed a nerf badly. Try thinking and fitting ABs and Scramblers.
IRevolution	Posted - 2008.08.02 11:39:00 - [25] ^^ Maybe so. Though interceptors should be the fastest ships in the game, afterall they are designed for 'speed'
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.02 12:20:00 - [26] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2008 06:52:08 Originally by: Zeba btw that barely over 5000ms is with all nav skills at level 5. A player with the normal level 4 skills is gonna get his shit handed to him by Hobgoblins ffs.. From a thread in the Ships & Mods forum: You can still be invulnerable. I have no idea where those guys got those numbers Jim but on the current sisi build with the exact same fit on a Crow I can get 5183ms without Snakes and 6119ms with Snakes. Log on and try it. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.08.02 12:33:00 - [27] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2008 06:52:08 Originally by: Zeba btw that barely over 5000ms is with all nav skills at level 5. A player with the normal level 4 skills is gonna get his shit handed to him by Hobgoblins ffs.. From a thread in the Ships & Mods forum: You can still be invulnerable. I have no idea where those guys got those numbers Jim but on the current sisi build with the exact same fit on a Crow I can get 5183ms without Snakes and 6119ms with Snakes. Log on and try it. Will do when I have some time. Thanks for letting me know. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
heheheh The Scope	Posted - 2008.08.02 12:37:00 - [28] waaaaaaa waaaaa waaaaaaaaaaaaa Heard all this before last time they changed them, yet people are still flying nano ships.
Aegrimonia Black Bands	Posted - 2008.08.02 13:07:00 - [29] Originally by: Tobin Shalim we'll do no better than 4km/s 4kms used to be the norm, it used to be a struggle to get over 4kms in a plate crow, and ranis were even slower. Then they "nurfed" the speed mods and the speed just kept on getting faster and faster after that. ------- 2hot4u
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.08.02 13:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/08/2008 05:46:07 Originally by: MotherMoon I'll go get some I think it was my claw it was going faster than I remember by like 10m/s while using an t2MWD and nothing else. no wait...edit that it's like 20m/s slower :P Dude. Ginsing is your friend. Before the nerf my Claw was hitting nearly 9000ms with a t2 mwd, two overdrives and two nanofibers with no rigs. Now after the nerf on sisi I get barely over 5000ms with three overdrives, 1 nanofibre and two thruster rigs whice are all stacking nerfed to each other unlike the previous setup. Thats a bit moar than a 20ms loss mate. edit:btw that barely over 5000ms is with all nav skills at level 5. A player with the normal level 4 skills is gonna get his shit handed to him by Hobgoblins ffs.. sorry if I didn't make it clear I was talking without extra mods, just basic MWD or afterburner tests, no overdrives. Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot

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