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Cloaking needs a counter

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Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.05 09:27:00 - [31] Originally by: Zemar Chain That's odd because i've seen fleets of cloaked, stealth bombers, force recons, recons, cov ops, and the like sit cloaked in systems for hours preventing people in 0.0 from operating. What might you say does the inhabitants of said system have as a resort to solve the problem. Not a darn thing because cloak has no counter all they can do is sit in stations because they never know if the reds in there local are afk or just waiting for them to go out and rat and blow them away. They can make a fleet but the reds can just use there scanners and see the fleet and never undock. The problem is you're asking for a counter, a reaction to their initiative, instead of countering it with your own initiative. Your statement is contradictory for starters; they can't all be out there cloaked, and mysteriously also never undock when a fleet is present. How about, off the top of my head... camp the system and move all your vulnerable ratters or miners to another system, forcing the enemy to run your gatecamps or no longer be effective? Or bring combat ships with your miners or ratters? I do find it odd that those of us spending time in low-sec are always warned to bring friends, escorts, and be paranoid, and yet those in 0.0 seem to think they can claim space and have that space totally secure, and not need to defend or patrol it. Look at it this way. If you didn't have local, but instead some proper limited intel tools, you'd actually have to patrol systems you wished to keep safe, or at least heavily camp the gates. All the cloakers are doing is requiring you to do that. If you wish to view it as your space, then you have to protect it and your assets. Do I say it's easy? No, but then what are you out in 0.0 for? An easy time or a challenge? Originally by: Zemar Chain Maybe what needs to be added is that cloak 100% prevents you from doing anything while cloaked, you can see the area around you and that's it...no local chat, no scanner, no nothing, your cloaked and your ship is running "silent" so no instruments for you. Ah and there was I thinking spying was already quite challenging... ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
VJ Maverick Caldari Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.08.05 16:11:00 - [32] Originally by: Zemar Chain That's odd because i've seen fleets of cloaked, stealth bombers, force recons, recons, cov ops, and the like sit cloaked in systems for hours preventing people in 0.0 from operating. What's preventing you from operating is your own abuse of Local. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
None Smith Caldari Capital Experiments Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.08.10 02:39:00 - [33] Cloaking seems to be basically equivalent to submarines in modern Navies. The counter is sonar, depth charges and various missiles or torpedoes. Why not take a ship that's in game, like the Destroyer and allow it to have a 'sonar' module. When that module is on the pilot of the Destroyer (and only the Destroyer) can see but not target cloaked ships that are in sight (<=250km), maybe they look silver or blue or whatever. That pilot than can fly toward the cloaked ship and ram it to de-cloak the detected ship, or maybe that pilot can use a bomb-like device that disrupts the cloak for 10 minuets û this device would be limited to destroyers or some such. The cloaked pilot still has the opportunity to align and bail out of the area. He can still hide for days and be lame. What this would do is allow fleets to operate without having an observer hovering over the operation all the time. Any thoughts....?
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.10 04:03:00 - [34] As someone said before- cloaks on unspecialized ships are their own counter.
Fetchem Gallente Darkdust Industries Empire	Posted - 2008.08.10 04:28:00 - [35] Any thoughts....? Well if you want to use a slot like a scanner module that will, in a limited range show if or not any anomolies in a say 50k radius. You could then check if anything going on in your direct viscinity, but would only show there is something. And it would take a precious slot. And would show only there is a cloaked anomoly, so you would see all your own cloaked people too and have to count how many to see if there are others. ie purely tactical for a situation. You could be at your pos and 'check' if there something hanging about.
Marcus Gideon Gallente Excessive Force	Posted - 2008.08.10 04:33:00 - [36] Hunter modules --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST"
sophisticatedlimabean Gallente Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.10 09:40:00 - [37] Originally by: Zemar Chain That's odd because i've seen fleets of cloaked, stealth bombers, force recons, recons, cov ops, and the like sit cloaked in systems for hours preventing people in 0.0 from operating. What might you say does the inhabitants of said system have as a resort to solve the problem. Not a darn thing because cloak has no counter all they can do is sit in stations because they never know if the reds in there local are afk or just waiting for them to go out and rat and blow them away. They can make a fleet but the reds can just use there scanners and see the fleet and never undock. Maybe what needs to be added is that cloak 100% prevents you from doing anything while cloaked, you can see the area around you and that's it...no local chat, no scanner, no nothing, your cloaked and your ship is running "silent" so no instruments for you. Here is a idea how about you and your alliance actually get organized and make your members be in a gang on on TS or vent, mumble so they can support each other while they rat/mine?. Your problem is not cloakers or anything else the hostile ships do, your problem is that you and your members are lazy and unwilling to be bothered to work as a team to solve this problem. If you put together and had your carebears in gangs and on TS/comms while they ratted they could easily support each other and after a few of these coaker get owned by your gang for attacking your ratters they will move on or stay cloaked. Keeping your space safe and secure to rat and mine in is your job as the holder of that space, its still 0.0 not empire so you will need to defend it from all aggressors and should be organized at all times not just when your blobbing something. My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake.
Destructor1792 Minmatar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.08.10 13:05:00 - [38] there used to be something like an "anti pulse cloaking" module in one of the databases that I recall seeing on numerous occasions. Mid slot with a 15km Range & deactivated any cloaks within its range! No idea what ever happened to it though as I never saw it live on any server! But yep, gang up, get on TS and keep your eyes peeled is the next best thing ______________________________________ *Bringing The Fun Back* I Have No Fear, Fear is for the weak.
Marcus Gideon Gallente Excessive Force	Posted - 2008.08.10 14:46:00 - [39] Originally by: Marcus Gideon You mean... kinda like an Anti-Cloaking Pulse? --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST"
Bi Tor Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.10 16:10:00 - [40] Originally by: None Smith Cloaking seems to be basically equivalent to submarines in modern Navies. The counter is sonar, depth charges and various missiles or torpedoes. Why not take a ship that's in game, like the Destroyer and allow it to have a 'sonar' module. When that module is on the pilot of the Destroyer (and only the Destroyer) can see but not target cloaked ships that are in sight (<=250km), maybe they look silver or blue or whatever. That pilot than can fly toward the cloaked ship and ram it to de-cloak the detected ship, or maybe that pilot can use a bomb-like device that disrupts the cloak for 10 minuets û this device would be limited to destroyers or some such. The cloaked pilot still has the opportunity to align and bail out of the area. He can still hide for days and be lame. What this would do is allow fleets to operate without having an observer hovering over the operation all the time. Any thoughts....? What a great idea, to continue it to it's logical conclusion. Originally by: Dav Varan Cloak is its own counter. Switch on a cloak and you 1) cant shoot 2) cant warp ( unless specialist cloaking ship , which have pants firepower and tank in most cases ) 3) Can move only very slowly 4) cant activate any reps or active hardeners 5) cant scoop anything 6) cant dock 7) cant jump In fact all you can do in a cloaked ship is observe without being blown to bits. Seems that cloak is working just fine as it is. What you get is (since in a modern navy submarines get to use all of the passive systems and many of their active ones also) to remove all of the above restrictions and replace them with a temporary de-cloak while certain active systems are operational. Therefore I get to lock you while I am cloaked if I use a passive targeter. I do not need to de-cloak before I shoot at you, the system de-cloaks me while the missiles are in flight or the guns are cycling. I can take any action without de-cloaking as long as that action does not produce a tell tail signature. What you need to remembers is that for each additional counter you propose to cloaks we are going to demand that one or more of the current counters get removed. Oh and the first one I demand is that as long as I am cloaked I want image to be removed from the Local chat.
Freezehunter Gallente Black Knight Squadron OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:29:00 - [41] Yes, and how about the cloaking afk alt bastard n00bs in 0.0, that stay cloaked all day in a system only to disrupt the system's activity? How about those *******s, eh? I'd suggest that those automatically decloak, if they don't input any command to the ship for, say, 10 minutes, so that they can be probed out and KILLED...
Mag's MASS	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:46:00 - [42] Originally by: Freezehunter Yes, and how about the cloaking afk alt bastard n00bs in 0.0, that stay cloaked all day in a system only to disrupt the system's activity? How about those *****s, eh? I'd suggest that those automatically decloak, if they don't input any command to the ship for, say, 10 minutes, so that they can be probed out and KILLED... So how many ships did he destroy, all day, whilst cloaked afk? Mag's Originally by:** Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you.
Freezehunter Gallente Black Knight Squadron OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:48:00 - [43] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Freezehunter Yes, and how about the cloaking afk alt bastard n00bs in 0.0, that stay cloaked all day in a system only to disrupt the system's activity? How about those *******s, eh? I'd suggest that those automatically decloak, if they don't input any command to the ship for, say, 10 minutes, so that they can be probed out and KILLED... So how many ships did he destroy, all day, whilst cloaked afk? None, but he made me be afraid to go out and mine to make some isk to fund my PVP... (on 1 account and 1 char making isk is freakin' HARD! already, and having a red in system all the time is even WORSE...)
Mag's MASS	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:51:00 - [44] Originally by: Freezehunter Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Freezehunter stuff..... So how many ships did he destroy, all day, whilst cloaked afk? None, but he made me be afraid to go out and mine to make some isk to fund my PVP... (on 1 account and 1 char making isk is freakin' HARD! already, and having a red in system all the time is even WORSE...) So you only have the one system, with belts and rats? Mag's Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you.
sophisticatedlimabean Gallente Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:04:00 - [45] Originally by: Freezehunter Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Freezehunter Yes, and how about the cloaking afk alt bastard n00bs in 0.0, that stay cloaked all day in a system only to disrupt the system's activity? How about those *******s, eh? I'd suggest that those automatically decloak, if they don't input any command to the ship for, say, 10 minutes, so that they can be probed out and KILLED... So how many ships did he destroy, all day, whilst cloaked afk? None, but he made me be afraid to go out and mine to make some isk to fund my PVP... (on 1 account and 1 char making isk is freakin' HARD! already, and having a red in system all the time is even WORSE...) If your 0.0 alliance is not organized enough to gang up and get on comms when they are ratting or mining so they can defend themselves from a single bloody cloaker then you should move to a real alliance. Asking ccp to change the game just cos your alliance is so pathetic it cannot even defend against 1 ship cloaked or other wise in its money making systems is just sad. My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake.
Freezehunter Gallente Black Knight Squadron OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:13:00 - [46] Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Originally by: Freezehunter Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Freezehunter Yes, and how about the cloaking afk alt bastard n00bs in 0.0, that stay cloaked all day in a system only to disrupt the system's activity? How about those *****s, eh? I'd suggest that those automatically decloak, if they don't input any command to the ship for, say, 10 minutes, so that they can be probed out and KILLED... So how many ships did he destroy, all day, whilst cloaked afk? None, but he made me be afraid to go out and mine to make some isk to fund my PVP... (on 1 account and 1 char making isk is freakin' HARD! already, and having a red in system all the time is even WORSE...) If your 0.0 alliance is not organized enough to gang up and get on comms when they are ratting or mining so they can defend themselves from a single bloody cloaker then you should move to a real alliance. Asking ccp to change the game just cos your alliance is so pathetic it cannot even defend against 1 ship cloaked or other wise in its money making systems is just sad. It's not that, it's just that my alliance doesn't even BOTHER making a fleet to chase an invisible AFK bastard, too mutch hassle for one *... Altho, my point is still valid, THEY ARE ANNOYING!
Mag's MASS	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:29:00 - [47] Originally by: Freezehunter Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean If your 0.0 alliance is not organized enough to gang up and get on comms when they are ratting or mining so they can defend themselves from a single bloody cloaker then you should move to a real alliance. Asking ccp to change the game just cos your alliance is so pathetic it cannot even defend against 1 ship cloaked or other wise in its money making systems is just sad. It's not that, it's just that my alliance doesn't even BOTHER making a fleet to chase an invisible AFK bastard, too mutch hassle for one *... Altho, my point is still valid, THEY ARE ANNOYING! Actually your point is mute. You need friends to mine in 0.0, 1 char isn't enough. You can rat in 0.0 solo, but with the normal safety precautions. An afk cloaker will not disrupt any of those activities. Again I ask, do you only have the one system, with belts and rats? Mag's Originally by:** Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you.
Freezehunter Gallente Black Knight Squadron OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:36:00 - [48] no, all of tau ceti's sytems...
sophisticatedlimabean Gallente Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:44:00 - [49] Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 10/08/2008 19:45:52 Originally by: Freezehunter Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean If your 0.0 alliance is not organized enough to gang up and get on comms when they are ratting or mining so they can defend themselves from a single bloody cloaker then you should move to a real alliance. Asking ccp to change the game just cos your alliance is so pathetic it cannot even defend against 1 ship cloaked or other wise in its money making systems is just sad. It's not that, it's just that my alliance doesn't even BOTHER making a fleet to chase an invisible AFK bastard, too mutch hassle for one ***... Altho, my point is still valid, THEY ARE ANNOYING! Your alliance does not need a call to arms or a full mobilization to defend against one single cloaker. What your alliance needs to do is get all you ratters and miners organized and into a single gang so you can defend each other every time you carebear. Cloakers are annoy the disorganized, but the organized annoy the cloakers, so its up to you and your alliance who is the annoyed and who is the annoyer. My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.10 22:36:00 - [50] Cloakers eat babies - Infectious -
Plekto CCITT	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:21:00 - [51] A simple solution is to make XL smart bombs. 10-15Km range should suffice to drop most cloaks pretty easily.
Marcus Gideon Gallente Excessive Force	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:09:00 - [52] Originally by: Marcus Gideon You mean... kinda like an Anti-Cloaking Pulse? --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST"
Odre Echee Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.08.13 07:35:00 - [53] Edited by: Odre Echee on 13/08/2008 07:35:13 Originally by: Freezehunter stuff Then your alliance is not only incompetent, but don't deserve to live up there. Perhaps Tau Ceti should revise their resident list and remove you people. Or maybe it's just you who are not cut out for lifestyle out there. NinjaEdit : prove that I indeed am afk, not screwing with your mind. Hint : I love reading books. ------------------- Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon is recruiting! Take no substitute when it comes to alt-corp
Ashlee Darksky	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:50:00 - [54] Originally by: Nihilisen I'm sure a multitude of ideas could be formulated as a counter to cloak. The fact of the matter is though whatever the idea is there does need to be a counter. Currently you can cloak in a system with any ship and be 100% immune to being found for hours or days if you so choose. Possible Ideas - A new type of sensor probe with a longer scan countdown to find cloaked ships (time subject to what ccp finds is fair). - Cloaking devices should cycle with a % chance to fail possibly. - Over time cloak should degrade - Cloaking devices should eat cap faster based on ship mass, and in general even on recons should not be able to be run for hours without the sacrifice of dps or other mods. Other ideas welcome but cloak should have a suitable counter. NO! NO! NO! FAIL! The point of a cloak is that the ship is invisible! It does suffer penalties when cloaked, such as; Very slow speed Cannot fire Cannot re-cloak for up to 30 seconds Sensor calibration gets borked for up to 30 seconds Now go away and read the facts. How are covops supposed to work properly if you can find cloaked ships? I know, lets just nerf everything and fly in rookie ships - would you be happy then! --- I see fail everywhere, and it's like they don't even know they're failing ---
Nick Bison Gallente Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Intrepid Proprietary Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.26 20:15:00 - [55] First of all, make no changes to the current cloak mechanics. They actually work well. If you think of the wet-navy analogy, where cloaked ships are the submarines, then destroyers should be the sub-hunters. This opens a new possibility for two new destroyers. A Tier 3 and a true T2 destroyer. My basic rough idea follows: Tier 3 destroyers: (same hull as racial Tier 1) used to hunt non-covert ops ships using non-covert ops cloaks. - requires racial destroyer skill to level 3 - High slot layout same as racial destroyer - has +1 medium and +1 low slot over tier 1 racial destroyer - 9% more PG and CPU that racial tier 1 destroyer. - new skill "cloak detection". 3% reduction in cloak detector varience per level trained. - add new fitting: cloak detector (sonar). only effective against non-covert ops cloaks. When active will give distance to cloaked vessel within +/- 25% and direction of cloaked vessel within +/- 65 degrees lateral and 65% up/down. Max range of destroyer's current targetting range. New T2 Destroyer: (same hull as racial Tier 1) used to hunt Covert Ops ships using covert ops cloaks. - requires racial destroyer skill to level V - new skill: "Silent Hunter" (3% reduction in cloak detector varience per level trained. - High slot layout same as T2 racial destroyer - has +2 medium and +1 low slot over T2 racial destroyer - 18% more PG and CPU that racial T2 destroyer. - new skill "covert cloak detection". 3% reduction in cloak detector varience per level trained. Requires "cloak detection IV" as prerequisite. - - add new fitting: covert cloak detector (sonar). only effective against non-covert ops cloaks. When active will give distance to cloaked vessle within +/- 25% and direction of cloaked vessle within +/- 65 degrees lateral and 65% up/down. Max range of 2x destroyer's current targetting range. A very rough idea but, I think it's worth investigating ...
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.26 20:46:00 - [56] Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 26/08/2008 20:47:23 Cloaks counter probes, and there are significant drawbacks to fitting one. If you want to nerf them further you should, at the same time, go back to it taking 10-15 minutes (and a lot of player skill) to scan down a ship at a deep safespot. Better yet, nerf local and the nerf cloaks whines will end.
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.08.26 22:04:00 - [57] Originally by: Nick Bison Blah blah ocean model blah lazy carebear wanna mine/rat without organization in 0.0 blah blah. Space = water. ships = subs. safe spots = deep water. probes = sonar. cloaks = stealth/anti sonar. Leave cloaks alone and get organized.
Strill	Posted - 2008.08.26 23:20:00 - [58] Edited by: Strill on 26/08/2008 23:22:03 Originally by: Xzar Fyrarr As someone said before- cloaks on unspecialized ships are their own counter. Ok there seem to be two lines of thought, and neither side is getting through to each other. One side says that cloaks are fine because you can't activate any modules or kill anything with it on. The other side says that you don't have to kill anything to attack someone, the potential for you to kill something is your offense. A cloaked ship can lock down a system without having to fire a single shot, simply because its presence presents too much of a threat for anyone to be able to do anything in that system with any reasonable sense of security. Thus, since it's impossible to find or uncloak the hidden ship, it is capable of attacking a system with impunity. Cloaks are fine for sneaking around and infiltrating enemy territory, but if your position has been found even with your cloak, the cloak should not act as an invulnerability shield. Think of it this way, let's say you're running a restaurant and there's a 300lb gorilla that's escaped from the zoo and is somewhere in the vicinity of your restaurant. That gorilla could have been sitting in an alley the entire time and not harmed a single person, but nevertheless no one is going to go to your restaurant while it's around. That means that your restaurant is losing a lot of money. Therefore, the gorilla harmed your restaurant without having to physically attack anything at all.
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.26 23:41:00 - [59] this Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Your problem is not cloakers or anything else the hostile ships do, your problem is that you and your members are lazy and unwilling to be bothered to work as a team to solve this problem.
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.27 00:30:00 - [60] Oh god no. Not again. Possible ideas: Baitship, DD, LEAVE system and rat/mine elsewhere or I know, sit AFK in your station or POS Shield and moan about cloaking on the forums. Anyway.. whatever.. if you screw cloaks there will just be logoffski fleets in your system with one or two cloaked ships waiting to see if you try to probe them out. ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.

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