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Nihilisen
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Posted - 2008.08.03 01:14:00 -
[1]
I'm sure a multitude of ideas could be formulated as a counter to cloak. The fact of the matter is though whatever the idea is there does need to be a counter. Currently you can cloak in a system with any ship and be 100% immune to being found for hours or days if you so choose.
Possible Ideas
- A new type of sensor probe with a longer scan countdown to find cloaked ships (time subject to what ccp finds is fair).
- Cloaking devices should cycle with a % chance to fail possibly.
- Over time cloak should degrade
- Cloaking devices should eat cap faster based on ship mass, and in general even on recons should not be able to be run for hours without the sacrifice of dps or other mods.
Other ideas welcome but cloak should have a suitable counter.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.08.03 01:21:00 -
[2]
For argument's sake, cloaking ships in Star Trek had to devote massive amounts of power to running the cloaking device.
Ships should warp slower when fitted with a cloak. Cap should be penalized, maybe 50% cap capacity penalty. That way only ships meant to cloak can do it effectively and still be a combat threat.
 Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |
Xano Heroma
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.08.03 01:23:00 -
[3]
I disagree.
why ?
because if theirs a direct counter to cloaking, their will be no sense in using a cloak device anymore.
and why are you threatened by people being cloaked... they are unable to affect anything while cloacked.
this is the old "I want more easy kills" attitude.... (counterstrike in space) 
so really you just want cloaking removed ! cause that would be the effect of any of those ideas
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Excessive Force
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Posted - 2008.08.03 02:12:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 03/08/2008 02:13:04
Originally by: Nihilisen
I'm sure a multitude of ideas could be formulated as a counter to cloak. The fact of the matter is though whatever the idea is there does need to be a counter. Currently you can cloak in a system with any ship and be 100% immune to being found for hours or days if you so choose.
Possible Ideas
- A new type of sensor probe with a longer scan countdown to find cloaked ships (time subject to what ccp finds is fair).
- Cloaking devices should cycle with a % chance to fail possibly.
- Over time cloak should degrade
- Cloaking devices should eat cap faster based on ship mass, and in general even on recons should not be able to be run for hours without the sacrifice of dps or other mods.
Other ideas welcome but cloak should have a suitable counter.
For one thing... this topic has been done SO MANY TIMES I could lose my mind...
But still... it's a valid point, since evidently it comes back to life weekly.
1) Cloaks suppress all emissions from a ship. So making a Probe to find them is completely out of the question. On a system-wide scale, you're making a Probe to look for a "lack" of an object... so just take a moment now, and find out where in your house your car keys "aren't". Now imagine scouring the entire solar system trying to find out where your car keys "aren't".
2) Eve is set 40,000 years in the future... why should the Cloak have a chance to fail? Especially the T2 versions that CovOps use. I ~could~ see the Prototype version having a chance, but that's about it.
3) Again... why should a Cloak degrade, other than to justify being able to find them? If it were prone to breaking down, then they'd fix it.
4) Cloaks don't use Cap... because they draw their power from the ship as a whole. That's why none of your modules function at all while cloaked. And that's why anything other than a CovOps can't move but a snail's pace as well. So my counter for this constant suggestion of "Make it cost Cap" is... if we're paying for invisibility NOW by not being able to act... then I want to pay Cap and attack unseen until I run dry.
As for "other ideas"... I suggested the following a while ago.
Make a Hunter module, which is a form of Astrometric sensor. CovOPs get bonuses, so they'd be the best for using them. The module allows for finding the DISTANCE to a cloaked ship, but nothing more. No direction, and no Target Lock. It's an omnidirectional "ping". But you get 4 ships working in concert, and they can triangulate the location. Then you rely on the current "bump" mechanic to make them visible again.
Also... I suggested an Anchorable device similar to an Interdictor bubble. Basically like the various "Detectors" on Starcraft, it forces any ship getting inside it's very short range to become visible again. It can be deployed by a mining gang to keep from being snuck up on. Several could be scattered around your POS to keep invaders from approaching unseen. BUT... it can't be used within range of an Interdictor OR a Stargate. That way it doesn't become another toy in the Gate Camp arsenal.
That was my take on fixing Cloaks without just beating them down with the Nerf bat. They work fine as they are... they just need something else to help work against them. "Fixing" something doesn't mean changing the way it works... it means adding new strategies to get around it.
---
Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
"Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Telender
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.03 03:03:00 -
[5]
Yes the already weak Recons clearly need a nerf. This is a terrible idea.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Excessive Force
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Posted - 2008.08.03 03:41:00 -
[6]
Once again... I (could be alone in this) don't want to see Cloaks get "nerfed". I think they function perfectly well as they are. They disable all the systems onboard, and make anything not specifically built for them a HUGE pain in the ass to operate. A gunboat moving at 5m/s and unable to target anything for 30sec after decloaking isn't much of a threat.
However... I do think that Cloaks being completely impervious has made the users of such devices become quite lax in their roles. Which is why I think that counter-items could be invented to give them a little challenge to life.
At no point do I think a system-wide POS "Decloaking module" should be invented. That's completely overpowered for what is arguably the most passive of devices.
But I do think that technology advances to meet the demands of the market. And when war breaks out between races, they will strive to find new and inventive ways of killing each other on the battlefield. When they find out there are spies about, then they will make technology to try and Hunt them down. That's not to say it will work perfectly each and every time. And that's not to say it will be easy to accomplish. But they will try to find a way, and I think my suggestion at least, is a viable solution that doesn't actually mess with Cloaks themselves.
---
Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
"Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.03 03:50:00 -
[7]
Cloaks are the only counter to probes.
-------------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
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Adonis Kane
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Posted - 2008.08.03 04:08:00 -
[8]
I can agree that cloaks don't need to be nerfd so much as have a viable counter. A counter that should not effect ships such as recons which do NOT need to be nerfd more. The counters should only effect the non covert ops cloaking devices.
For starters the idea of having 4 ships triangulate something is a bit absurd, you shouldn't need four ships 40,000 years into the future to do a job 1 should be able to do.
Quite simply just have the protype cloaks have a counter such as one listed above, and have the covert ops cloaks not have a counter. I think this would be a feasable situation.
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Saraah Leeown
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Posted - 2008.08.03 07:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nihilisen
Currently you can cloak in a system with any ship and be 100% immune to being found for hours or days if you so choose.
in the same way you are immune to the cloaked pilot because...
Cloaking already has a counter. It's called the inability to activate modules, or do any damage whatsoever.
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Xindi Kraid
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Posted - 2008.08.03 09:32:00 -
[10]
Long range tracking of a cloaked ship shouldn't happen.
What I will accept (and in fact suggest) is a depth charge missile or bomb or something that can disrupt a cloak if it detonates close enough to a cloaked ship. Of course it will only be useful in your area but it can still prevent some nasty surprises
--Bird of Prey: Forum God
Caveat Emptor
Caveat Venditor
CAVEAT |
Odre Echee
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.08.03 13:03:00 -
[11]
I'll agree to this if you throw in 'remove cloak penalties' on the table.
---------------------
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon is recruiting!
Take no substitute when it comes to alt-cor |
Torothanax
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Posted - 2008.08.03 13:12:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Torothanax on 03/08/2008 13:12:49
Originally by: Xano Heroma
I disagree.
why ?
because if theirs a direct counter to cloaking, their will be no sense in using a cloak device anymore.
and why are you threatened by people being cloaked... they are unable to affect anything while cloacked.
this is the old "I want more easy kills" attitude.... (counterstrike in space)
so really you just want cloaking removed ! cause that would be the effect of any of those ideas
There's a direct counter to everything in the game except nano ships and cloaks. Nos got the bat. Nano's up now. Cloaks are on deck.
Enjoy your immunity while it lasts.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.03 13:30:00 -
[13]
First, cloaking should take cap use. This cap need should be relative to the size of the ship. It should be so intense that it can only provide a minute or two of cloak for a user in a standard ship.
Second, cloaks should be 'sized' for the ship. We need more variations of modules. This way, a large cloak, T1, fitted to a BS, can be adjusted so it's cap use is strong enough to cause it to decloak every minute or so.
Third, a cloaked ship should be spotted by the onboard scanner. Note: this requires an active scan, AND it doesn't give a player a 'warp to' function. It's not automatic and it's not omnipotent, but it'll tell you if that cloaked BS is waiting in the rat belt or not.
Covert Ops ships should be able to run cloaks full time.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Excessive Force
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ruze
First, cloaking should take cap use. This cap need should be relative to the size of the ship. It should be so intense that it can only provide a minute or two of cloak for a user in a standard ship.
Second, cloaks should be 'sized' for the ship. We need more variations of modules. This way, a large cloak, T1, fitted to a BS, can be adjusted so it's cap use is strong enough to cause it to decloak every minute or so.
Third, a cloaked ship should be spotted by the onboard scanner. Note: this requires an active scan, AND it doesn't give a player a 'warp to' function. It's not automatic and it's not omnipotent, but it'll tell you if that cloaked BS is waiting in the rat belt or not.
Covert Ops ships should be able to run cloaks full time.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how a Troll tries to make themselves look legit. 
---
Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
"Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Caldari 5
Amarr
The Element Syndicate
Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:51:00 -
[15]
No Nerfs to cloaking, no system wide scanners, however for combat and you know there is a cloaked ship near by, an EMP blast that takes half of your own cap to damage ALL ships in a Radius(to be decided) by 1HP, enough to pop a cloaker out of cloak and force them to re-active/fight or take flight.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Excessive Force
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Posted - 2008.08.03 16:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Caldari 5
No Nerfs to cloaking, no system wide scanners, however for combat and you know there is a cloaked ship near by, an EMP blast that takes half of your own cap to damage ALL ships in a Radius(to be decided) by 1HP, enough to pop a cloaker out of cloak and force them to re-active/fight or take flight.
You mean... kinda like an Anti-Cloaking Pulse?
---
Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
"Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Xindi Kraid
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Posted - 2008.08.03 20:12:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 03/08/2008 20:13:08
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Originally by: Caldari 5
No Nerfs to cloaking, no system wide scanners, however for combat and you know there is a cloaked ship near by, an EMP blast that takes half of your own cap to damage ALL ships in a Radius(to be decided) by 1HP, enough to pop a cloaker out of cloak and force them to re-active/fight or take flight.
You mean... kinda like an Anti-Cloaking Pulse?
There ya gg
Fit one of these on a scout and send it flying around like the navy sends anti sub copters to patrol the waterways.
--Bird of Prey: Forum God
Caveat Emptor
Caveat Venditor
CAVEAT |
Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.04 02:09:00 -
[18]
Any "fix" for cloaks must not create a situation where a player is forced to choose between:
A: Dying
B: Going to work in RL so he does not lose his job.
Its that simple.
My own solution is allow a slow scanning down of cloaked ships that would take about 20 minutes at best (and that assumes all skills at Lv 5, a full head of scanning implants, etc...), but to also let cloaks stay active when a player logs off until his ship unspawns (or something uncloaks it...).
This would not lead to many cloaked ships being killed, but it would at least force the afk cloakers to log off.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Lochmar Fiendhiem
Caldari
Wyverns of Dionysus
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.08.04 05:54:00 -
[19]
I suggested this before, but I'll try again for fun. :D
first of all, leave cloaks exactly the way they are now. cloaks are fine, they work great.
Add three modules
the first can go on friagtes, etc similiar to a smart bomb, sends out a pulse, decloaks the ship within range. Skill can either increase range, decrease delay time between activation, or both, or cpu reduction, or even script it.
very similiar to whats in the data base now
The second an anchorable bubble that prevents cloaking within its area of effect. give it a 100km anchor distance from gates for whatever scientific reason, also have it come in three sizes just like mobile warp bubbles, maybe make them a little smaller then the comparible size of current bubbles.
The last mod is a capital ship mod. Give it a silly cpu or powergrid need and a reduction for whatever skill to use it on a cap or super cap, maybe set it to increase range by 5% per level (max 62.5km). Works Exactly like the first module but it creates a bubble that spans 50km in all directions, uncloaks all ships in the area and prevents cloaks from activating. Does not pulse activate, operates just like a bubble, but it still an active mod.
Then all of a sudden covert cynos are looking a lot more fesible
Originally by: Halkin
bob is dead, goons are great, cheese is cheesy, there we go no need for any more threads
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Scouteye
Locasta Tactical
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Posted - 2008.08.04 10:11:00 -
[20]
Cloaks are the counter to Probes, if you made probes or modules that can find cloaked ships they would, by the logic in many of the threads like this, require another counter... and then that would need a counter.... and it goes on and on and on. There has to be a line, so where is it to be?
Simply make 2 changes, make it that if you are a non-covert ship and you fit a cloak you recieve a massive agility penalty with it fitted, not just active or online, but physicaly fitted.
You then make it that you can not activate the cloak for 30 seconds after dropping out of warp.
This means that ratters would take for ever to get in and out of the belts if they are not aligned and if they do get out they have to wait for 30sec for them to be able to cloak.
This gives the attackers a small chance of getting the right belt and if they are clever enough they have a fair chance of getting a hit on a probe before the ship cloaks.
These are not counters to cloak, just balancing, making non-covert ships suffer heavly from fitting this very powerful module.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.04 11:03:00 -
[21]
What part of being unable to move fast, warp, target, shoot, or do anything is there a problem with? (Cov ops & force recons excepted, they get to warp)
I can be 100% immune for days or weeks on end just as effectively by docking at a station, or logging off. I don't see the problem. The only time a cloak is actually effective is just after it's been turned off.
Lots of people asking for something doesn't make them right.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2008.08.04 13:25:00 -
[22]
Cloak is its own counter.
Switch on a cloak and you
1) cant shoot
2) cant warp
( unless specialist cloaking ship , which have pants firepower and tank in most cases )
3) Can move only very slowly
4) cant activate any reps or active hardeners
5) cant scoop anything
6) cant dock
7) cant jump
In fact all you can do in a cloaked ship is observe without being blown to bits.
Seems that cloak is working just fine as it is.
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Sweet Rosella
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Posted - 2008.08.04 13:31:00 -
[23]
Bad idea
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annab
Amarr
Vermin.
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.08.04 13:36:00 -
[24]
Theres one problem most people who post these threads forget and thats cloaks have many drawbacks as they are. Which in most cases make them weak for combat. However they are useful for ratting, intel and hit and run ops.
improved cloaking device ii a list of existing drawbacks.
75% speed lost
20 sec sensor recalibration time (can be lowed to 10 sec with cloaking lvl 5
40% scan resolution bonus (lock time)
can't warp
when on can't fire,run modules and loss drone left outside.
I feel if there was to be a nerf/counter ccp should not aim it at the combat cloaker but at the ratter.
All ships designed for cloaking should be ungraded a bit. All ships that are not designed to run cloaks should have more problems in doing so.
example
The black ops would get a 1sec lock buff but the bs would get 5.0sec warp delay. That way the combat cloakers can still spy, hit and run and do what they do.
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VJ Maverick
Caldari
Splinter Cell Alfa
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Posted - 2008.08.04 17:40:00 -
[25]
Edited by: VJ Maverick on 04/08/2008 17:41:14
Cloaking HAS a counter. It's called "Local" and it's the most abused game mechanic in ALL of EvE. Stop whining.
Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything. |
Adonis Kane
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Posted - 2008.08.04 19:53:00 -
[26]
My take on cloaks and the needs of nerfing them:
- You shouldn't be able to cloak in a system for hours with an active fleet trying to find you...there should be some way to eventually find you.
- Cloak doesn't need a direct nerf to the cloak itself, if anything countermeasures should be introduced.
- Covert Ops cloaks should be unaffected by any change in cloak mechanics made to the prototype and improved cloaks.
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Caldari 5
Amarr
The Element Syndicate
Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2008.08.04 20:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Adonis Kane
- You shouldn't be able to cloak in a system for hours with an active fleet trying to find you...there should be some way to eventually find you.
Here is a Needle, and here is your 1 Trillion Billion Million m3 Haystack, throws needle into haystack.
Um no... Short of Burning down the entire Haystack there is no easy way(or should there be) to find that 0.0001 m3 Needle.
A cloaking device equiped ships should not be able to be found, however if you see a ship cloak, and know the general location of it, you should be able to fire your weapons in the general area to attempt to bring it out of cloak. Hence the range limited pulse idea.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Excessive Force
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Posted - 2008.08.04 21:22:00 -
[28]
I absolutely LOVE the fact that people complain day and night about Cloaks. "They need a balance" , "They need a counter" , "They are overpowered" , "We're paranoid we're being watched"... and yet... every solution presented (with a few exceptions) always says
We should let ships designed to use them, still work normally.
Who do you think is spying on you? Who do you think has you in their sights?
The ships designed to use them.
Are you seriously believing that someone fitted a Cloak onto their rigged Mega, to see what your fleet is up to? Do you honestly believe that someone would attempt to sneak a HAC past a Gate Camp?
Or perhaps they are using the ships meant to be sneaky. And "fixing" Cloaks as everyone keeps suggesting wouldn't have any effect on THOSE ships...
What people need to do, is stop believing that the Boogeyman is out to get them, first of all. Just because there's a face on Local, doesn't mean that he's right behind you, ready and waiting to devour your soul.
Then people need to realize that Spying is a completely legitimate tactic during times of War, and times of Peace. Just because the US and Russia aren't at each other's throats anymore... doesn't mean that both sides aren't still playing the same old games. And just because you think your operations are safe within your borders, doesn't mean that someone isn't watching and reporting back.
Cloaks, by themselves, are completely balanced. They disable everything else onboard the ship, making it completely useless for anything BUT watching. Even when they are turned off, ANY ship not meant for cloaking is completely screwed for a good long period of time. So everyone posing ideas here and there about how Cloaks should have a duration, or a fuel, or Cap draw... realize how much MORE you're trying to handicap an already CRIPPLING module.
What does make sense however, is giving the opposing side a ~chance~ to find the spies in their midst. NOT a guaranteed win, with the accompanying Killmail... but a fighting chance on both sides. Nothing in Eve is ever guaranteed in writing. Even something as simple as mining a belt of Veld could end with you limping home in a Pod. So why should either side of "Spy vs Spy" be guaranteed victory.
THAT'S why I suggested my Hunter module, and my Detector deployable. Because they provide a CHANCE, not a guarantee.
Yes, this may look a bit like blatant advertising towards the end... but take in the whole message. People get so wrapped up in THEIR ideas, in what THEY think needs to be done.
I'm not saying that MY idea is the only option. It's AN option. But I think that it's a lot more balanced that a great many others presented.
Try and think ahead, just a teeny bit, about the repercussions before you suggest something. What sounds like a great idea now, could lead to a huge pain later on.
---
Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
"Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Inara Subaka
Caldari
the united
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Posted - 2008.08.04 21:36:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Dav Varan
Cloak is its own counter.
Switch on a cloak and you
1) cant shoot
2) cant warp
( unless specialist cloaking ship , which have pants firepower and tank in most cases )
3) Can move only very slowly
4) cant activate any reps or active hardeners
5) cant scoop anything
6) cant dock
7) cant jump
In fact all you can do in a cloaked ship is observe without being blown to bits.
Seems that cloak is working just fine as it is.
/signed
I really wonder what people are thinking once in a while (or if they are thinking at all).
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Zemar Chain
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Posted - 2008.08.04 22:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Inara Subaka
Originally by: Dav Varan
Cloak is its own counter.
Switch on a cloak and you
1) cant shoot
2) cant warp
( unless specialist cloaking ship , which have pants firepower and tank in most cases )
3) Can move only very slowly
4) cant activate any reps or active hardeners
5) cant scoop anything
6) cant dock
7) cant jump
In fact all you can do in a cloaked ship is observe without being blown to bits.
Seems that cloak is working just fine as it is.
/signed
I really wonder what people are thinking once in a while (or if they are thinking at all).
That's odd because i've seen fleets of cloaked, stealth bombers, force recons, recons, cov ops, and the like sit cloaked in systems for hours preventing people in 0.0 from operating. What might you say does the inhabitants of said system have as a resort to solve the problem. Not a darn thing because cloak has no counter all they can do is sit in stations because they never know if the reds in there local are afk or just waiting for them to go out and rat and blow them away. They can make a fleet but the reds can just use there scanners and see the fleet and never undock.
Maybe what needs to be added is that cloak 100% prevents you from doing anything while cloaked, you can see the area around you and that's it...no local chat, no scanner, no nothing, your cloaked and your ship is running "silent" so no instruments for you.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.05 09:27:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Zemar Chain
That's odd because i've seen fleets of cloaked, stealth bombers, force recons, recons, cov ops, and the like sit cloaked in systems for hours preventing people in 0.0 from operating. What might you say does the inhabitants of said system have as a resort to solve the problem. Not a darn thing because cloak has no counter all they can do is sit in stations because they never know if the reds in there local are afk or just waiting for them to go out and rat and blow them away. They can make a fleet but the reds can just use there scanners and see the fleet and never undock.
The problem is you're asking for a counter, a reaction to their initiative, instead of countering it with your own initiative. Your statement is contradictory for starters; they can't all be out there cloaked, and mysteriously also never undock when a fleet is present. How about, off the top of my head... camp the system and move all your vulnerable ratters or miners to another system, forcing the enemy to run your gatecamps or no longer be effective? Or bring combat ships with your miners or ratters?
I do find it odd that those of us spending time in low-sec are always warned to bring friends, escorts, and be paranoid, and yet those in 0.0 seem to think they can claim space and have that space totally secure, and not need to defend or patrol it.
Look at it this way. If you didn't have local, but instead some proper limited intel tools, you'd actually have to patrol systems you wished to keep safe, or at least heavily camp the gates. All the cloakers are doing is requiring you to do that. If you wish to view it as your space, then you have to protect it and your assets. Do I say it's easy? No, but then what are you out in 0.0 for? An easy time or a challenge?
Originally by: Zemar Chain
Maybe what needs to be added is that cloak 100% prevents you from doing anything while cloaked, you can see the area around you and that's it...no local chat, no scanner, no nothing, your cloaked and your ship is running "silent" so no instruments for you.
Ah and there was I thinking spying was already quite challenging...
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
VJ Maverick
Caldari
Splinter Cell Alfa
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 16:11:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Zemar Chain
That's odd because i've seen fleets of cloaked, stealth bombers, force recons, recons, cov ops, and the like sit cloaked in systems for hours preventing people in 0.0 from operating.
What's preventing you from operating is your own abuse of Local.
Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything. |
None Smith
Caldari
Capital Experiments
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 02:39:00 -
[33]
Cloaking seems to be basically equivalent to submarines in modern Navies. The counter is sonar, depth charges and various missiles or torpedoes.
Why not take a ship that's in game, like the Destroyer and allow it to have a 'sonar' module. When that module is on the pilot of the Destroyer (and only the Destroyer) can see but not target cloaked ships that are in sight (<=250km), maybe they look silver or blue or whatever. That pilot than can fly toward the cloaked ship and ram it to de-cloak the detected ship, or maybe that pilot can use a bomb-like device that disrupts the cloak for 10 minuets û this device would be limited to destroyers or some such.
The cloaked pilot still has the opportunity to align and bail out of the area. He can still hide for days and be lame. What this would do is allow fleets to operate without having an observer hovering over the operation all the time.
Any thoughts....?
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Xzar Fyrarr
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 04:03:00 -
[34]
As someone said before- cloaks on unspecialized ships are their own counter.
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Fetchem
Gallente
Darkdust Industries Empire
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 04:28:00 -
[35]
Any thoughts....?
Well if you want to use a slot like a scanner module that will, in a limited range show if or not any anomolies in a say 50k radius.
You could then check if anything going on in your direct viscinity, but would only show there is something.
And it would take a precious slot.
And would show only there is a cloaked anomoly, so you would see all your own cloaked people too and have to count how many to see if there are others.
ie purely tactical for a situation. You could be at your pos and 'check' if there something hanging about.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Excessive Force
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 04:33:00 -
[36]
Hunter modules
---
Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
"Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 09:40:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Zemar Chain
That's odd because i've seen fleets of cloaked, stealth bombers, force recons, recons, cov ops, and the like sit cloaked in systems for hours preventing people in 0.0 from operating. What might you say does the inhabitants of said system have as a resort to solve the problem. Not a darn thing because cloak has no counter all they can do is sit in stations because they never know if the reds in there local are afk or just waiting for them to go out and rat and blow them away. They can make a fleet but the reds can just use there scanners and see the fleet and never undock.
Maybe what needs to be added is that cloak 100% prevents you from doing anything while cloaked, you can see the area around you and that's it...no local chat, no scanner, no nothing, your cloaked and your ship is running "silent" so no instruments for you.
Here is a idea how about you and your alliance actually get organized and make your members be in a gang on on TS or vent, mumble so they can support each other while they rat/mine?.
Your problem is not cloakers or anything else the hostile ships do, your problem is that you and your members are lazy and unwilling to be bothered to work as a team to solve this problem. If you put together and had your carebears in gangs and on TS/comms while they ratted they could easily support each other and after a few of these coaker get owned by your gang for attacking your ratters they will move on or stay cloaked.
Keeping your space safe and secure to rat and mine in is your job as the holder of that space, its still 0.0 not empire so you will need to defend it from all aggressors and should be organized at all times not just when your blobbing something.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Destructor1792
Minmatar
Malicious Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 13:05:00 -
[38]
there used to be something like an "anti pulse cloaking" module in one of the databases that I recall seeing on numerous occasions.
Mid slot with a 15km Range & deactivated any cloaks within its range! No idea what ever happened to it though as I never saw it live on any server!
But yep, gang up, get on TS and keep your eyes peeled is the next best thing 
______________________________________
Bringing The Fun Back
I Have No Fear, Fear is for the weak. |
Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Excessive Force
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 14:46:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
You mean... kinda like an Anti-Cloaking Pulse?
---
Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
"Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Bi Tor
Caldari
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 16:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: None Smith
Cloaking seems to be basically equivalent to submarines in modern Navies. The counter is sonar, depth charges and various missiles or torpedoes.
Why not take a ship that's in game, like the Destroyer and allow it to have a 'sonar' module. When that module is on the pilot of the Destroyer (and only the Destroyer) can see but not target cloaked ships that are in sight (<=250km), maybe they look silver or blue or whatever. That pilot than can fly toward the cloaked ship and ram it to de-cloak the detected ship, or maybe that pilot can use a bomb-like device that disrupts the cloak for 10 minuets û this device would be limited to destroyers or some such.
The cloaked pilot still has the opportunity to align and bail out of the area. He can still hide for days and be lame. What this would do is allow fleets to operate without having an observer hovering over the operation all the time.
Any thoughts....?
What a great idea, to continue it to it's logical conclusion. Originally by: Dav Varan
Cloak is its own counter.
Switch on a cloak and you
1) cant shoot
2) cant warp
( unless specialist cloaking ship , which have pants firepower and tank in most cases )
3) Can move only very slowly
4) cant activate any reps or active hardeners
5) cant scoop anything
6) cant dock
7) cant jump
In fact all you can do in a cloaked ship is observe without being blown to bits.
Seems that cloak is working just fine as it is.
What you get is (since in a modern navy submarines get to use all of the passive systems and many of their active ones also) to remove all of the above restrictions and replace them with a temporary de-cloak while certain active systems are operational.
Therefore I get to lock you while I am cloaked if I use a passive targeter. I do not need to de-cloak before I shoot at you, the system de-cloaks me while the missiles are in flight or the guns are cycling. I can take any action without de-cloaking as long as that action does not produce a tell tail signature.
What you need to remembers is that for each additional counter you propose to cloaks we are going to demand that one or more of the current counters get removed. Oh and the first one I demand is that as long as I am cloaked I want image to be removed from the Local chat.
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Freezehunter
Gallente
Black Knight Squadron
OWN Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 18:29:00 -
[41]
Yes, and how about the cloaking afk alt bastard n00bs in 0.0, that stay cloaked all day in a system only to disrupt the system's activity?
How about those *******s, eh?
I'd suggest that those automatically decloak, if they don't input any command to the ship for, say, 10 minutes, so that they can be probed out and KILLED...
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Mag's
MASS
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 18:46:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Freezehunter
Yes, and how about the cloaking afk alt bastard n00bs in 0.0, that stay cloaked all day in a system only to disrupt the system's activity?
How about those *******s, eh?
I'd suggest that those automatically decloak, if they don't input any command to the ship for, say, 10 minutes, so that they can be probed out and KILLED...
So how many ships did he destroy, all day, whilst cloaked afk?
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus
One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
Freezehunter
Gallente
Black Knight Squadron
OWN Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 18:48:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Freezehunter
Yes, and how about the cloaking afk alt bastard n00bs in 0.0, that stay cloaked all day in a system only to disrupt the system's activity?
How about those *******s, eh?
I'd suggest that those automatically decloak, if they don't input any command to the ship for, say, 10 minutes, so that they can be probed out and KILLED...
So how many ships did he destroy, all day, whilst cloaked afk?
None, but he made me be afraid to go out and mine to make some isk to fund my PVP... (on 1 account and 1 char making isk is freakin' HARD! already, and having a red in system all the time is even WORSE...)
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Mag's
MASS
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 18:51:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Freezehunter
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Freezehunter
stuff.....
So how many ships did he destroy, all day, whilst cloaked afk?
None, but he made me be afraid to go out and mine to make some isk to fund my PVP... (on 1 account and 1 char making isk is freakin' HARD! already, and having a red in system all the time is even WORSE...)
So you only have the one system, with belts and rats?
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus
One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 19:04:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Freezehunter
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Freezehunter
Yes, and how about the cloaking afk alt bastard n00bs in 0.0, that stay cloaked all day in a system only to disrupt the system's activity?
How about those *******s, eh?
I'd suggest that those automatically decloak, if they don't input any command to the ship for, say, 10 minutes, so that they can be probed out and KILLED...
So how many ships did he destroy, all day, whilst cloaked afk?
None, but he made me be afraid to go out and mine to make some isk to fund my PVP... (on 1 account and 1 char making isk is freakin' HARD! already, and having a red in system all the time is even WORSE...)
If your 0.0 alliance is not organized enough to gang up and get on comms when they are ratting or mining so they can defend themselves from a single bloody cloaker then you should move to a real alliance.
Asking ccp to change the game just cos your alliance is so pathetic it cannot even defend against 1 ship cloaked or other wise in its money making systems is just sad.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Freezehunter
Gallente
Black Knight Squadron
OWN Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 19:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Originally by: Freezehunter
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Freezehunter
Yes, and how about the cloaking afk alt bastard n00bs in 0.0, that stay cloaked all day in a system only to disrupt the system's activity?
How about those *******s, eh?
I'd suggest that those automatically decloak, if they don't input any command to the ship for, say, 10 minutes, so that they can be probed out and KILLED...
So how many ships did he destroy, all day, whilst cloaked afk?
None, but he made me be afraid to go out and mine to make some isk to fund my PVP... (on 1 account and 1 char making isk is freakin' HARD! already, and having a red in system all the time is even WORSE...)
If your 0.0 alliance is not organized enough to gang up and get on comms when they are ratting or mining so they can defend themselves from a single bloody cloaker then you should move to a real alliance.
Asking ccp to change the game just cos your alliance is so pathetic it cannot even defend against 1 ship cloaked or other wise in its money making systems is just sad.
It's not that, it's just that my alliance doesn't even BOTHER making a fleet to chase an invisible AFK bastard, too mutch hassle for one ***...
Altho, my point is still valid, THEY ARE ANNOYING!
|
Mag's
MASS
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 19:29:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Freezehunter
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
If your 0.0 alliance is not organized enough to gang up and get on comms when they are ratting or mining so they can defend themselves from a single bloody cloaker then you should move to a real alliance.
Asking ccp to change the game just cos your alliance is so pathetic it cannot even defend against 1 ship cloaked or other wise in its money making systems is just sad.
It's not that, it's just that my alliance doesn't even BOTHER making a fleet to chase an invisible AFK bastard, too mutch hassle for one ***...
Altho, my point is still valid, THEY ARE ANNOYING!
Actually your point is mute.
You need friends to mine in 0.0, 1 char isn't enough.
You can rat in 0.0 solo, but with the normal safety precautions.
An afk cloaker will not disrupt any of those activities.
Again I ask, do you only have the one system, with belts and rats?
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus
One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
Freezehunter
Gallente
Black Knight Squadron
OWN Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 19:36:00 -
[48]
no, all of tau ceti's sytems...
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 19:44:00 -
[49]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 10/08/2008 19:45:52
Originally by: Freezehunter
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
If your 0.0 alliance is not organized enough to gang up and get on comms when they are ratting or mining so they can defend themselves from a single bloody cloaker then you should move to a real alliance.
Asking ccp to change the game just cos your alliance is so pathetic it cannot even defend against 1 ship cloaked or other wise in its money making systems is just sad.
It's not that, it's just that my alliance doesn't even BOTHER making a fleet to chase an invisible AFK bastard, too mutch hassle for one ***...
Altho, my point is still valid, THEY ARE ANNOYING!
Your alliance does not need a call to arms or a full mobilization to defend against one single cloaker. What your alliance needs to do is get all you ratters and miners organized and into a single gang so you can defend each other every time you carebear.
Cloakers are annoy the disorganized, but the organized annoy the cloakers, so its up to you and your alliance who is the annoyed and who is the annoyer.
My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake. |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.10 22:36:00 -
[50]
Cloakers eat babies
- Infectious - |
Plekto
CCITT
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 02:21:00 -
[51]
A simple solution is to make XL smart bombs. 10-15Km range should suffice to drop most cloaks pretty easily.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Excessive Force
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 03:09:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
You mean... kinda like an Anti-Cloaking Pulse?
---
Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
"Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST" |
Odre Echee
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 07:35:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Odre Echee on 13/08/2008 07:35:13
Originally by: Freezehunter
stuff
Then your alliance is not only incompetent, but don't deserve to live up there. Perhaps Tau Ceti should revise their resident list and remove you people.
Or maybe it's just you who are not cut out for lifestyle out there.
NinjaEdit : prove that I indeed am afk, not screwing with your mind. Hint : I love reading books.
-------------------
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon is recruiting!
Take no substitute when it comes to alt-corp |
Ashlee Darksky
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 10:50:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Nihilisen
I'm sure a multitude of ideas could be formulated as a counter to cloak. The fact of the matter is though whatever the idea is there does need to be a counter. Currently you can cloak in a system with any ship and be 100% immune to being found for hours or days if you so choose.
Possible Ideas
- A new type of sensor probe with a longer scan countdown to find cloaked ships (time subject to what ccp finds is fair).
- Cloaking devices should cycle with a % chance to fail possibly.
- Over time cloak should degrade
- Cloaking devices should eat cap faster based on ship mass, and in general even on recons should not be able to be run for hours without the sacrifice of dps or other mods.
Other ideas welcome but cloak should have a suitable counter.
NO! NO! NO! FAIL!
The point of a cloak is that the ship is invisible! It does suffer penalties when cloaked, such as;
Very slow speed
Cannot fire
Cannot re-cloak for up to 30 seconds
Sensor calibration gets borked for up to 30 seconds
Now go away and read the facts.
How are covops supposed to work properly if you can find cloaked ships? I know, lets just nerf everything and fly in rookie ships - would you be happy then!
---
I see fail everywhere, and it's like they don't even know they're failing
---
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Nick Bison
Gallente
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
Intrepid Proprietary Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.26 20:15:00 -
[55]
First of all, make no changes to the current cloak mechanics. They actually work well. If you think of the wet-navy analogy, where cloaked ships are the submarines, then destroyers should be the sub-hunters. This opens a new possibility for two new destroyers. A Tier 3 and a true T2 destroyer. My basic rough idea follows:
Tier 3 destroyers: (same hull as racial Tier 1) used to hunt non-covert ops ships using non-covert ops cloaks.
- requires racial destroyer skill to level 3
- High slot layout same as racial destroyer
- has +1 medium and +1 low slot over tier 1 racial destroyer
- 9% more PG and CPU that racial tier 1 destroyer.
- new skill "cloak detection". 3% reduction in cloak detector varience per level trained.
- add new fitting: cloak detector (sonar). only effective against non-covert ops cloaks. When active will give distance to cloaked vessel within +/- 25% and direction of cloaked vessel within +/- 65 degrees lateral and 65% up/down. Max range of destroyer's current targetting range.
New T2 Destroyer: (same hull as racial Tier 1) used to hunt Covert Ops ships using covert ops cloaks.
- requires racial destroyer skill to level V
- new skill: "Silent Hunter" (3% reduction in cloak detector varience per level trained.
- High slot layout same as T2 racial destroyer
- has +2 medium and +1 low slot over T2 racial destroyer
- 18% more PG and CPU that racial T2 destroyer.
- new skill "covert cloak detection". 3% reduction in cloak detector varience per level trained. Requires "cloak detection IV" as prerequisite.
-
- add new fitting: covert cloak detector (sonar). only effective against non-covert ops cloaks. When active will give distance to cloaked vessle within +/- 25% and direction of cloaked vessle within +/- 65 degrees lateral and 65% up/down. Max range of 2x destroyer's current targetting range.
A very rough idea but, I think it's worth investigating ...
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Somealt Ofmine
|
Posted - 2008.08.26 20:46:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 26/08/2008 20:47:23
Cloaks counter probes, and there are significant drawbacks to fitting one. If you want to nerf them further you should, at the same time, go back to it taking 10-15 minutes (and a lot of player skill) to scan down a ship at a deep safespot.
Better yet, nerf local and the nerf cloaks whines will end.
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marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
|
Posted - 2008.08.26 22:04:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Nick Bison
Blah blah ocean model blah lazy carebear wanna mine/rat without organization in 0.0 blah blah.
Space = water.
ships = subs.
safe spots = deep water.
probes = sonar.
cloaks = stealth/anti sonar.
Leave cloaks alone and get organized.
|
Strill
|
Posted - 2008.08.26 23:20:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Strill on 26/08/2008 23:22:03
Originally by: Xzar Fyrarr
As someone said before- cloaks on unspecialized ships are their own counter.
Ok there seem to be two lines of thought, and neither side is getting through to each other.
One side says that cloaks are fine because you can't activate any modules or kill anything with it on.
The other side says that you don't have to kill anything to attack someone, the potential for you to kill something is your offense. A cloaked ship can lock down a system without having to fire a single shot, simply because its presence presents too much of a threat for anyone to be able to do anything in that system with any reasonable sense of security. Thus, since it's impossible to find or uncloak the hidden ship, it is capable of attacking a system with impunity.
Cloaks are fine for sneaking around and infiltrating enemy territory, but if your position has been found even with your cloak, the cloak should not act as an invulnerability shield.
Think of it this way, let's say you're running a restaurant and there's a 300lb gorilla that's escaped from the zoo and is somewhere in the vicinity of your restaurant. That gorilla could have been sitting in an alley the entire time and not harmed a single person, but nevertheless no one is going to go to your restaurant while it's around. That means that your restaurant is losing a lot of money. Therefore, the gorilla harmed your restaurant without having to physically attack anything at all.
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Vanguard.
|
Posted - 2008.08.26 23:41:00 -
[59]
this
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Your problem is not cloakers or anything else the hostile ships do, your problem is that you and your members are lazy and unwilling to be bothered to work as a team to solve this problem.
|
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Rabies Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 00:30:00 -
[60]
Oh god no. Not again.
Possible ideas: Baitship, DD, LEAVE system and rat/mine elsewhere
or I know, sit AFK in your station or POS Shield and moan about cloaking on the forums.
Anyway.. whatever.. if you screw cloaks there will just be logoffski fleets in your system with one or two cloaked ships waiting to see if you try to probe them out.
~~~~
There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
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