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Dr Clay	Posted - 2008.08.03 01:16:00 - [1] Edited by: Dr Clay on 03/08/2008 01:16:25 Why? - More variety, one less redundant skill set, fewer people complaining about missiles in PvP How? - More damage - Higher rate of fire Result? - World peace Why not? ............................. ............................. ............................? No big words here.
verde bandit Amarr Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2008.08.03 01:17:00 - [2] Those are called loltorps from some patches ago.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.03 06:07:00 - [3] Have you looked at the dps of a rocket kestrel lately? Rockets are fine the way they are. Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are pleased to aim! Or was that the other way around?
Ash Vincetti Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.03 06:11:00 - [4] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Have you looked at the dps of a rocket kestrel lately? Rockets are fine the way they are. That's more to do with the bonuses on the kestrel than the DPS of rockets in general. I can get more DPS out of my Vengeance if I fit it with 3x small t2 blasters and add a magstab, than if I fit it with 4x t2 rocket launchers, use high damage rockets, and add 2x BCUs (which requires CPU mods). That's just broken. ----- free bree!
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.03 06:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Ash Vincetti Originally by: Reem Fairchild Have you looked at the dps of a rocket kestrel lately? Rockets are fine the way they are. That's more to do with the bonuses on the kestrel than the DPS of rockets in general. I can get more DPS out of my Vengeance if I fit it with 3x small t2 blasters and add a magstab, than if I fit it with 4x t2 rocket launchers, use high damage rockets, and add 2x BCUs (which requires CPU mods). That's just broken. of course you get almost 10km optimal on those blasters ... something for something ... no tracking, nice range ... there's something that has to give .... but I agree Vengeance with rockets is a joke ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.03 07:19:00 - [6] Originally by: Dr Clay Edited by: Dr Clay on 03/08/2008 01:16:25 Why? - More variety, one less redundant skill set, fewer people complaining about missiles in PvP How? - More damage - Higher rate of fire Result? - World peace Why not? ............................. ............................. ............................? No big words here. Why not: no tracking, no cap use, selectable damage type. They are 'on par'. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Vernana	Posted - 2008.08.03 09:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Dr Clay Edited by: Dr Clay on 03/08/2008 01:16:25 Why? - More variety, one less redundant skill set, fewer people complaining about missiles in PvP How? - More damage - Higher rate of fire Result? - World peace Why not? ............................. ............................. ............................? No big words here. Why not: no tracking, no cap use, selectable damage type. They are 'on par'. Ya, i have nothing agaisnt rockets doing blaster damage if blasters also will hit at 15km, uses no cap, and will have no problems tracking interceptor at 500m.
Lt Angus Caldari Lt Angus Corp	Posted - 2008.08.03 09:36:00 - [8] who the hell complains about missiles in pvp and rockets? Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2008.08.03 10:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Hugh Ruka but I agree Vengeance with rockets is a joke ... i concurr.. and the malediction with a armour resist bonus is a joke as well... ALSO ***** may i add.. t2 HAMS have better explosion velocity that T2 rockets... now seriously.. that actually IS broken _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Dr Clay	Posted - 2008.08.03 12:34:00 - [10] I really wish I could deal respectable damage with my hawk. :[ Why do CCP ignore these things for so long.
Sirius Problem Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.03 13:17:00 - [11] Edited by: Sirius Problem on 03/08/2008 13:17:37 Originally by: Dr Clay I really wish I could deal respectable damage with my hawk. :[ It seems that some people can. Hawk vs Raven ---- Train more. Whine less.
Dr Clay	Posted - 2008.08.03 13:48:00 - [12] Originally by: Sirius Problem Edited by: Sirius Problem on 03/08/2008 13:17:37 Originally by: Dr Clay I really wish I could deal respectable damage with my hawk. :[ It seems that some people can. Hawk vs Raven Oh please, that must have taken him half an hour or more. That is not respectable DPS. Damage Taken: 42013 'nuff said.
Jim Raynor Caldari Shinra	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Sirius Problem Edited by: Sirius Problem on 03/08/2008 13:17:37 Originally by: Dr Clay I really wish I could deal respectable damage with my hawk. :[ It seems that some people can. Hawk vs Raven That's a pretty nice fit that Raven had. Heavy Launchers on a battleship? What a pro. ------ I'll make a sig later.
Elaine Celeste	Posted - 2008.08.03 21:09:00 - [14] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Ash Vincetti Originally by: Reem Fairchild Have you looked at the dps of a rocket kestrel lately? Rockets are fine the way they are. That's more to do with the bonuses on the kestrel than the DPS of rockets in general. I can get more DPS out of my Vengeance if I fit it with 3x small t2 blasters and add a magstab, than if I fit it with 4x t2 rocket launchers, use high damage rockets, and add 2x BCUs (which requires CPU mods). That's just broken. of course you get almost 10km optimal on those blasters ... something for something ... no tracking, nice range ... there's something that has to give .... but I agree Vengeance with rockets is a joke ... While rockets may need a boost when it comes to the Vengeance, it's Amarr assault frigates as a whole that need some lovin'. The Vengeance is just lollerific with its stupid shield bonuses, and the Retribution's shield bonuses and 1 mid-slot are even worse. Could learn a thing or two from the Ishkur... of course the only reason it's so good is because of its huge drone bay. CELESTE LOTTERIES
d3vo The Space BorderLine United For 0rder	Posted - 2008.08.04 04:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Elaine Celeste While rockets may need a boost when it comes to the Vengeance, it's Amarr assault frigates as a whole that need some lovin'. The Vengeance is just lollerific with its stupid shield bonuses, and the Retribution's shield bonuses and 1 mid-slot are even worse. Could learn a thing or two from the Ishkur... of course the only reason it's so good is because of its huge drone bay. Shield bonuses??? __________ \(^.^)/
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.04 04:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Andreya Originally by: Hugh Ruka but I agree Vengeance with rockets is a joke ... i concurr.. and the malediction with a armour resist bonus is a joke as well... ALSO ***** may i add.. t2 HAMS have better explosion velocity that T2 rockets... now seriously.. that actually IS broken 1) I agree that the Vengeance is crap. It needs to be buffed. 2) Same with the Malediction. It needs to be buffed. 3) Rocket explosion velocity needs to be increased dramatically. I'm always for a buff where something needs it done. Clearly this is the case for the above three points. But rockets themselves don't need any help, other than the explosion velocity issue. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Damned Force Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.04 14:00:00 - [17] Yes, Rockets sux atm. Look at the AF's almost all AF's doing 200 or far over 200 dps(some of them almost 300), but the 2 AF's with rockets are sux. The hawk with max skills full gank t2 fit do under 130dps with faction rockets, and the Amarr one is just under 150 too with 3 BCU2....... I know lot of u would say but ranges......but by frigs if u in any case in webrange this range is useless
Elaine Celeste	Posted - 2008.08.04 14:30:00 - [18] Originally by: d3vo Originally by: Elaine Celeste While rockets may need a boost when it comes to the Vengeance, it's Amarr assault frigates as a whole that need some lovin'. The Vengeance is just lollerific with its stupid shield bonuses, and the Retribution's shield bonuses and 1 mid-slot are even worse. Could learn a thing or two from the Ishkur... of course the only reason it's so good is because of its huge drone bay. Shield bonuses??? 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Explosive resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic resistance per level. If you wanna give it resist bonuses, go for 5 or 10% per level distributed evenly across all resists, not some weird half-assed shield and armor bonus for 2 resists. CELESTE LOTTERIES
Kepakh	Posted - 2008.08.04 14:49:00 - [19] Originally by: Elaine Celeste Originally by: d3vo Originally by: Elaine Celeste While rockets may need a boost when it comes to the Vengeance, it's Amarr assault frigates as a whole that need some lovin'. The Vengeance is just lollerific with its stupid shield bonuses, and the Retribution's shield bonuses and 1 mid-slot are even worse. Could learn a thing or two from the Ishkur... of course the only reason it's so good is because of its huge drone bay. Shield bonuses??? 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Explosive resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic resistance per level. If you wanna give it resist bonuses, go for 5 or 10% per level distributed evenly across all resists, not some weird half-assed shield and armor bonus for 2 resists. There is nothing wierd nor half-assed about the resists. Vengeance is a Khanid ship. Apart from Curse, all Khanid ships have same resists(bonused), Vengeance go only in-line with them. High kin and exp resists are there due their racial enemies: Minmatar and Gallente.
fkingfurious	Posted - 2008.08.04 14:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Elaine Celeste Originally by: d3vo Originally by: Elaine Celeste While rockets may need a boost when it comes to the Vengeance, it's Amarr assault frigates as a whole that need some lovin'. The Vengeance is just lollerific with its stupid shield bonuses, and the Retribution's shield bonuses and 1 mid-slot are even worse. Could learn a thing or two from the Ishkur... of course the only reason it's so good is because of its huge drone bay. Shield bonuses??? 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Explosive resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic resistance per level. If you wanna give it resist bonuses, go for 5 or 10% per level distributed evenly across all resists, not some weird half-assed shield and armor bonus for 2 resists. Are you high? Thats standard Amarr Tech2 resists. The difference with AF's is that they waste a ship bonus to get them whereas every other ship with tech2 resists gets them for free. Check all the other AF's if you don't believe me.
Elaine Celeste	Posted - 2008.08.04 15:06:00 - [21] Originally by: fkingfurious Originally by: Elaine Celeste Originally by: d3vo Originally by: Elaine Celeste While rockets may need a boost when it comes to the Vengeance, it's Amarr assault frigates as a whole that need some lovin'. The Vengeance is just lollerific with its stupid shield bonuses, and the Retribution's shield bonuses and 1 mid-slot are even worse. Could learn a thing or two from the Ishkur... of course the only reason it's so good is because of its huge drone bay. Shield bonuses??? 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Explosive resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic resistance per level. If you wanna give it resist bonuses, go for 5 or 10% per level distributed evenly across all resists, not some weird half-assed shield and armor bonus for 2 resists. Are you high? Thats standard Amarr Tech2 resists. The difference with AF's is that they waste a ship bonus to get them whereas every other ship with tech2 resists gets them for free. Check all the other AF's if you don't believe me. They're still terrible bonuses, specially when coupled with the 1 mid-slot or the pitiful rocket damage. I know the other ships get them too, but at least a ship like the Ishkur does like 3x more damage, so who cares there. The Amarr ones are terribly designed. With a ship like the Ishkur I couldn't care less what crappy shield bonuses it has when it does 200dps. CELESTE LOTTERIES
fkingfurious	Posted - 2008.08.04 15:12:00 - [22] You're not getting this are you? Those resist bonuses arent negotiable and wont be changed because they are what Amarr Tech2 ships have. And how can you say they are bad? You have noticed that the bonuses apply to BOTH shield and armor for ALL 4 races? And as it stands Amarr have probably the best. They're armor tankers with only 1 resist hole which is thermal at 40%. If you wanna LOL at a resist bonus check out the Wolf. A 4 low slot armor tanker with bonuses to EM and Thermal. Geat for lasers, **** all use for anything else.
Elaine Celeste	Posted - 2008.08.04 15:15:00 - [23] Originally by: fkingfurious You're not getting this are you? Those resist bonuses arent negotiable and wont be changed because they are what Amarr Tech2 ships have. And how can you say they are bad? You have noticed that the bonuses apply to BOTH shield and armor for ALL 4 races? And as it stands Amarr have probably the best. They're armor tankers with only 1 resist hole which is thermal at 40%. If you wanna LOL at a resist bonus check out the Wolf. A 4 low slot armor tanker with bonuses to EM and Thermal. Geat for lasers, ** all use for anything else. There's nothing to get... We both agree that they're awful atm. We both agree they need to be fixed. I'm just not particularly impressed by the shield bonuses, that's all I'm saying. I'd much rather see higher armor only bonuses, or completely different bonuses instead to make them more useful and put them all in line with the Ishkur. CELESTE LOTTERIES**
Kepakh	Posted - 2008.08.04 15:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Elaine Celeste Originally by: fkingfurious You're not getting this are you? Those resist bonuses arent negotiable and wont be changed because they are what Amarr Tech2 ships have. And how can you say they are bad? You have noticed that the bonuses apply to BOTH shield and armor for ALL 4 races? And as it stands Amarr have probably the best. They're armor tankers with only 1 resist hole which is thermal at 40%. If you wanna LOL at a resist bonus check out the Wolf. A 4 low slot armor tanker with bonuses to EM and Thermal. Geat for lasers, **** all use for anything else. There's nothing to get... We both agree that they're awful atm. We both agree they need to be fixed. I'm just not particularly impressed by the shield bonuses, that's all I'm saying. I'd much rather see higher armor only bonuses, or completely different bonuses instead to make them more useful and put them all in line with the Ishkur. Only that needs fixing here is you. Stop trolling. Sure, Vengeance is not a dmg dealer but it is the best tanker of all AF, hence make it the best short range tackler(not forget the + cap recharge bonus just for your tank). Amarr got the best armor resist distribution of all races(yes, Vengeance included). Rockets are extremely efficient in killing drones, use no cap and can get decent range if needed. And Retribution? Oh, boy..that is a flying powerhouse so 1 mid is absolutely justifiable.
Elaine Celeste	Posted - 2008.08.04 15:38:00 - [25] Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Elaine Celeste Originally by: fkingfurious You're not getting this are you? Those resist bonuses arent negotiable and wont be changed because they are what Amarr Tech2 ships have. And how can you say they are bad? You have noticed that the bonuses apply to BOTH shield and armor for ALL 4 races? And as it stands Amarr have probably the best. They're armor tankers with only 1 resist hole which is thermal at 40%. If you wanna LOL at a resist bonus check out the Wolf. A 4 low slot armor tanker with bonuses to EM and Thermal. Geat for lasers, ** all use for anything else. There's nothing to get... We both agree that they're awful atm. We both agree they need to be fixed. I'm just not particularly impressed by the shield bonuses, that's all I'm saying. I'd much rather see higher armor only bonuses, or completely different bonuses instead to make them more useful and put them all in line with the Ishkur. Only that needs fixing here is you. Stop trolling. Sure, Vengeance is not a dmg dealer but it is the best tanker of all AF, hence make it the best short range tackler(not forget the + cap recharge bonus just for your tank). Amarr got the best armor resist distribution of all races(yes, Vengeance included). Rockets are extremely efficient in killing drones, use no cap and can get decent range if needed. And Retribution? Oh, boy..that is a flying powerhouse so 1 mid is absolutely justifiable. Oh yah, great ships. I guess that's why everybody flies 'em. CELESTE LOTTERIES**
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.04 15:52:00 - [26] I think that rockets need a small buff (and no, rocket kestrels aren't nearly that uber, they do less damage then a Rifter, significantly less then a Incursus, didn't test the Punisher yet), so bonused (25%) rockets dont do worse then unbonused ACs (rockets are harder to fit anyway, and clip sizes are absurdly small). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.08.04 16:51:00 - [27] Rockets are fine exactly the way they are, just get your skills up.
Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2008.08.04 18:06:00 - [28] Originally by: Kepakh And Retribution? Oh, boy..that is a flying powerhouse so 1 mid is absolutely justifiable. ho-ly-cr*p ..... are you f___ing kidding me... anything you ever say in these forums from this point on loose all credibility. i hope your being sarcastic _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Xyleya moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.08.04 21:57:00 - [29] Originally by: Straight Chillen Rockets are fine exactly the way they are, just get your skills up. I've Rocket Spec LvL 4 and Small AC Spec LvL 4, all other Missile or Gunnery Skills LvL 4 or 5. Vengeance with 3x 200mm AC II (Barrage) + 1x Rocket Launcher II (Phalanx Rage Rocket)= 85DPS / 173 alpha Vengeance with 4x Rocket Launcher II (Phalanx Rage Rocket) = 84 DPS / 196 alpha. Explosion velocity of the Rockets = 1400m/sec and have 1400m/sec velocity... they don't hit Ceptors or AFs that turn on their MWD going 2+km/sec at all. Autocannons will hit them Ceptors or AFs tho, if you follow them and transversal is low. AC's will hit at up to 9km and Rockets have 9.8km flightime (flightime != max range). Both don't use cap to fire and the clipsize of the ACs is twice as big and with less RoF. If you don't see the flaws in this, where I'll do more effective damage with unbonussed AC's then with bonussed rockets, you can't be helped. No BCU's or Gyro's used in the above calculations! Furthermore, AC's are easier to fit aswell (6.8 CPU / 3.7 PG) while Rocket Launchers need double the CPU (12.8 CPU / 3.7 PG). So with the AC-fitting I've 18 CPU more to play with. Rockets should've much more punch, much more explosion velocity and much more velocity aswell to make them viable. .
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.04 22:02:00 - [30] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 04/08/2008 22:02:49 Originally by: Xyleya Rockets should've much more punch Just more punch and more clipsize (say, 50% minimum, damnit) imo. Range is OK for a frigate weapon system and explosion velocity is fine, at least when using faction rockets rather then T2. And, yes, the issue is obvious: having less DPS out of a bonused weapon system then other short-range systems is simply bad. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Xyleya moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.08.04 23:10:00 - [31] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 04/08/2008 22:02:49 Originally by: Xyleya Rockets should've much more punch Just more punch and more clipsize (say, 50% minimum, damnit) imo. Range is OK for a frigate weapon system and explosion velocity is fine, at least when using faction rockets rather then T2. And, yes, the issue is obvious: having less DPS out of a bonused weapon system then other short-range systems is simply bad. Range is OK, yes, aswell as using Faction-Rockets help alittle, but the main-problem stays: Not enough punch, not enough clipsize and bad against MWDing Frigs (not counting Webs). .
Kepakh	Posted - 2008.08.04 23:48:00 - [32] Rockets are fine. Rockets > AC. Missiles generate less DPS(apart from torpedoes) due their ability to change dmg type. Hit resist hole and your dmg goes sky high. /thread
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.05 01:36:00 - [33] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 05/08/2008 01:36:53 Originally by: Kepakh Rockets are fine. Rockets > AC. Missiles generate less DPS(apart from torpedoes) due their ability to change dmg type. Hit resist hole and your dmg goes sky high. /thread I'm sure you are not claiming that frigate sized rocket ships have 'sky high' damage. Because that'd be stupid. Anyway, ACs > rockets. Duh. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sirius Problem Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.05 01:58:00 - [34] Edited by: Sirius Problem on 05/08/2008 01:59:34 Edited by: Sirius Problem on 05/08/2008 01:57:46 Originally by: Cpt Branko I think that rockets need a small buff (and no, rocket kestrels aren't nearly that uber, they do less damage then a Rifter, significantly less then a Incursus, didn't test the Punisher yet) Less damage? How measured? No tracking penalty to rockets, so damage over time in a combat situation should be better. Rocket Kessie with decent (not perfect) skills should pretty much shred any other T1 frig in range, even with T1 rockets. Even so, it is slow and not a lot of fun to fly. Which is why the Rifter is my T1 combat frig of choice. Which begs the question, "Why do I still have a Kessie for a sig?" ---- Train more. Whine less.
Damned Force Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.05 07:05:00 - [35] Originally by: Kepakh Rockets are fine. Rockets > AC. Missiles generate less DPS(apart from torpedoes) due their ability to change dmg type. Hit resist hole and your dmg goes sky high. /thread Sorry but u dont have a clue. sure rockets could have less dps because the things u wrote. but atm the other af's do with max skills and similiar fitting around 230-290dps where the hawk do under 130!!!!!!
Xyleya moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.08.05 14:58:00 - [36] Originally by: Sirius Problem Edited by: Sirius Problem on 05/08/2008 01:59:34 Edited by: Sirius Problem on 05/08/2008 01:57:46 Originally by: Cpt Branko I think that rockets need a small buff (and no, rocket kestrels aren't nearly that uber, they do less damage then a Rifter, significantly less then a Incursus, didn't test the Punisher yet) Less damage? How measured? No tracking penalty to rockets, so damage over time in a combat situation should be better. Rocket Kessie with decent (not perfect) skills should pretty much shred any other T1 frig in range, even with T1 rockets. Even so, it is slow and not a lot of fun to fly. Which is why the Rifter is my T1 combat frig of choice. Which begs the question, "Why do I still have a Kessie for a sig?" Did you even read the 1 1/2 pages in this thread? Look at my reply before >> http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=838218&page=1#29 << You'll see that a Vengeance is better off fitting unbonused Autocannons instead of bonused Rocket Launchers. .
Kepakh	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:16:00 - [37] Go go go, mighty EFT warriors!
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:18:00 - [38] Originally by: Xyleya Originally by: Sirius Problem Edited by: Sirius Problem on 05/08/2008 01:59:34 Edited by: Sirius Problem on 05/08/2008 01:57:46 Originally by: Cpt Branko I think that rockets need a small buff (and no, rocket kestrels aren't nearly that uber, they do less damage then a Rifter, significantly less then a Incursus, didn't test the Punisher yet) Less damage? How measured? No tracking penalty to rockets, so damage over time in a combat situation should be better. Rocket Kessie with decent (not perfect) skills should pretty much shred any other T1 frig in range, even with T1 rockets. Even so, it is slow and not a lot of fun to fly. Which is why the Rifter is my T1 combat frig of choice. Which begs the question, "Why do I still have a Kessie for a sig?" Did you even read the 1 1/2 pages in this thread? Look at my reply before >> http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=838218&page=1#29 << You'll see that a Vengeance is better off fitting unbonused Autocannons instead of bonused Rocket Launchers. I don't think you are quite correct. With rockets the DPS is flat up to cca 9km with good skills. Autocannons will have like 50% or less of their DPS at that range. The issue with rockets is the flat DPS graph. If you increase rocket DPS, it does increse for the whole range. That's why buffing missile weapons is difficult. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Xyleya moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.08.05 20:17:00 - [39] Edited by: Xyleya on 05/08/2008 20:20:04 Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Xyleya Originally by: Sirius Problem Edited by: Sirius Problem on 05/08/2008 01:59:34 Edited by: Sirius Problem on 05/08/2008 01:57:46 Originally by: Cpt Branko I think that rockets need a small buff (and no, rocket kestrels aren't nearly that uber, they do less damage then a Rifter, significantly less then a Incursus, didn't test the Punisher yet) Less damage? How measured? No tracking penalty to rockets, so damage over time in a combat situation should be better. Rocket Kessie with decent (not perfect) skills should pretty much shred any other T1 frig in range, even with T1 rockets. Even so, it is slow and not a lot of fun to fly. Which is why the Rifter is my T1 combat frig of choice. Which begs the question, "Why do I still have a Kessie for a sig?" Did you even read the 1 1/2 pages in this thread? Look at my reply before >> http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=838218&page=1#29 << You'll see that a Vengeance is better off fitting unbonused Autocannons instead of bonused Rocket Launchers. I don't think you are quite correct. With rockets the DPS is flat up to cca 9km with good skills. Autocannons will have like 50% or less of their DPS at that range. The issue with rockets is the flat DPS graph. If you increase rocket DPS, it does increse for the whole range. That's why buffing missile weapons is difficult. The problem is, that anything frig-size going 2+km/sec won't be hit by rockets at all, as rockets have only 1400m velocity with skills at LvL 4-5, while my AC's will still do some damage and even more so, if transversal is low. And your 9km... LOL... this is maximum flight-time not effective range! Cut that in half, and you've got the range you can hit another ceptor/frig. .
Kepakh	Posted - 2008.08.05 20:47:00 - [40] Originally by: Xyleya The problem is, that anything frig-size going 2+km/sec won't be hit by rockets at all, as rockets have only 1400m velocity with skills at LvL 4-5, while my AC's will still do some damage and even more so, if transversal is low. And your 9km... LOL... this is maximum flight-time not effective range! Cut that in half, and you've got the range you can hit another ceptor/frig. What a failure... Max skilled rocket range is 3*3375 reduced by time needed for acceleration = 9km range easily, along with 3000 expl. velocity. 9km is a web range. You don't fly rocket fitted ships with no web. AC shooting at 9km distant target? Good luck. With T1/faction ammo the dmg is 0. Barrage with 1.5km optimal ain't great either, not to mention gimped tracking. Rockets and turrets have their pros and cons, rockets are fine the way they are. Go go go EFT numbers!
Opertone Caldari SIEGE. The Border Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.05 21:32:00 - [41] that's confirmed, rockets are broken... they only fit well on a kestrel... fixe rockets and give them highest precision and explosions velocity
Sirius Problem Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.05 21:54:00 - [42] Originally by: Xyleya Did you even read the 1 1/2 pages in this thread? Look at my reply before >> http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=838218&page=1#29 << Yeah, I read it. EFT FTL. Kepakh's post a couple up from this nails it. ---- Train more. Whine less.
Mara Kell Steel Beasts	Posted - 2008.08.05 22:16:00 - [43] Originally by: Kepakh What a failure... Max skilled rocket range is 3*3375 reduced by time needed for acceleration = 9km range easily, along with 3000 expl. velocity. Which is all 5 you should add. But still you are wrong. The 10km max flight path with all 5 is not enough to hit at 9km when you are moving. Its the same with the HAMs, you have to be ALOT closer than the theoretical flight path lenght indicates. I am supporting the OP with asking for an improvement of Rockets or rocket based ships. The damage dealth with Khanid rocket ships is so low, its a shame. While they still have some use in PVP (without weapons) as pure tacklers, they have no use at all in PVE because of their non existant damage. I mean the Amarr Assault ships just scream for using them against angels but all the choice you have is a DPS boat with the wrong damage type or an ultra low damage boat which does the right damage type. I think even with a 10% rocket damage per level the Vengence would just scratch the level of the turret based boats. And chosing the damage is imho overestimated with all the omni tanks running around. Actually only nano ships have heavy resistance holes and an assault frig is not exactly something that is used to hunt Vagabonds.
Xyleya moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.08.05 23:15:00 - [44] Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Xyleya The problem is, that anything frig-size going 2+km/sec won't be hit by rockets at all, as rockets have only 1400m velocity with skills at LvL 4-5, while my AC's will still do some damage and even more so, if transversal is low. And your 9km... LOL... this is maximum flight-time not effective range! Cut that in half, and you've got the range you can hit another ceptor/frig. What a failure... Max skilled rocket range is 3*3375 reduced by time needed for acceleration = 9km range easily, along with 3000 expl. velocity. 9km is a web range. You don't fly rocket fitted ships with no web. AC shooting at 9km distant target? Good luck. With T1/faction ammo the dmg is 0. Barrage with 1.5km optimal ain't great either, not to mention gimped tracking. Rockets and turrets have their pros and cons, rockets are fine the way they are. Go go go EFT numbers! EFT FTL on your side here. I fly MinMatar and Khanid ships on a daily basis. Rockets do not have 9km range. That's only a theoretical number but nowhere close to reality, as the target is moving, thus reducing your effective range greatly for HAMs and Rockets. And yes, with 200mm AC II and Barrage, you easily will hit at 9km. With greatly reduced damage ofc, but you'll hit up to 15km, if transversal is low. optimal + FallOff is not your maximum range for turrets. You'll allways make some hits behind this range. All types of Missiles simply vanish after they've reached their max flightime. And your 3000m/sec explosion velocity is for Standard or Faction Missiles which have 1km less range then Rage Rockets. Rage Rockets have 1400m/sec explosion velocity and Javelin are even worse with 700m/sec. If I use Faction Rockets I've lower DPS then with Rage Rockets and less range. And no, you don't have a MedSlot free for a Web on a Vengeance as you need this third slot for a CapBooster allready to make your tank worthwile and the ship competitive against other AFs. Your DPS is so low in comparison, that you need to active-tank a Vengeance, so you can deal damage over time and slowly eat away that Enyo, Ishkur, Wolf, Harpy, Jaguar. Don't give me your synthetic numbers, as you clearly don't fly the ships using Rockets. .
Kepakh	Posted - 2008.08.05 23:56:00 - [45] Originally by: Xyleya I fly MinMatar and Khanid ships on a daily basis. Rockets do not have 9km range. That's only a theoretical number but nowhere close to reality, as the target is moving, thus reducing your effective range greatly for HAMs and Rockets. And yes, with 200mm AC II and Barrage, you easily will hit at 9km. With greatly reduced damage ofc, but you'll hit up to 15km, if transversal is low. optimal + FallOff is not your maximum range for turrets. You'll allways make some hits behind this range. All types of Missiles simply vanish after they've reached their max flightime. And your 3000m/sec explosion velocity is for Standard or Faction Missiles which have 1km less range then Rage Rockets. Rage Rockets have 1400m/sec explosion velocity and Javelin are even worse with 700m/sec. If I use Faction Rockets I've lower DPS then with Rage Rockets and less range. And no, you don't have a MedSlot free for a Web on a Vengeance as you need this third slot for a CapBooster allready to make your tank worthwile and the ship competitive against other AFs. Your DPS is so low in comparison, that you need to active-tank a Vengeance, so you can deal damage over time and slowly eat away that Enyo, Ishkur, Wolf, Harpy, Jaguar. Don't give me your synthetic numbers, as you clearly don't fly the ships using Rockets. Rage Rockets >.> ...thanks for laugh. My Missile Bombardment and Missiles Projection at lvl 3 makes me hit 200m/s moving target at 8.5-9.0km, so I assume you are doing something wrong. Try launch EVE before you fly your 'daily basis' not just EFT pew pew :)
Mara Kell Steel Beasts	Posted - 2008.08.06 00:23:00 - [46] Originally by: Kepakh anks for laugh. My Missile Bombardment and Missiles Projection at lvl 3 makes me hit 200m/s moving target at 8.5-9.0km, so I assume you are doing something wrong. Try launch EVE before you fly your 'daily basis' not just EFT pew pew :) Try moving yourself around the target. Just tested it out in my sacrilege and with 17600 max ideal range my HAMs stopped hitting the BC i was cruising around at around 13000. The slow speed of the rockets/HAMs causes majour problems when you are circling a target.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.06 00:30:00 - [47] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/08/2008 00:34:07 Originally by: Sirius Problem Less damage? How measured? No tracking penalty to rockets, You seriously don't miss all that much (hello tracking bonused frigate guns vs webbed targets), and even with, say, 10% misses, they still all outdamage the Kestrel. Some by a lot. Kestrel damage, with all its bonuses, is still far from anything spectacular. Originally by: Sirius Problem so damage over time in a combat situation should be better. Rocket Kessie with decent (not perfect) skills should pretty much shred any other T1 frig in range, even with T1 rockets. Orly? With actual PvP mids? Yeah, would like to see that, particularly with T1 rockets. Your only hope is double-webbing your target at the edge of rocket range but in deep falloff of ACs/blasters, but then you lack actual speed mods ;) Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.08.06 00:43:00 - [48] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 06/08/2008 00:43:44 Originally by: Xyleya And yes, with 200mm AC II and Barrage, you easily will hit at 9km. With greatly reduced damage ofc, but you'll hit up to 15km, if transversal is low. optimal + FallOff is not your maximum range for turrets. You'll allways make some hits behind this range. All types of Missiles simply vanish after they've reached their max flightime. You seem to have a very interesting definition of easily, have you actually tried it yourself? On a wolf (it gets a nice falloff bonus) you can actually hit something at 9km, still damage is nothing to write home about. You could probably put triple ambit rigs on a rifter to do this too, but... Quote: Don't give me your synthetic numbers, as you clearly don't fly the ships using autocannons.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.06 00:51:00 - [49] With hit quality factored in as well, a Rifter at 9km does probably about 40-ish DPS at 9km. You can outdo it with a Javelin Malediction, or something Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.08.06 01:12:00 - [50] Originally by: Cpt Branko You seriously don't miss all that much (hello tracking bonused frigate guns vs webbed targets), and even with, say, 10% misses, they still all outdamage the Kestrel. Some by a lot. Kestrel damage, with all its bonuses, is still far from anything spectacular. Looking at pure dps, the kestrel (no damage mods) is pretty much on par with the rifter, if you add a gyro the rifter will have a slight edge in on-paper dps, leaving both with 2 tanking slots. Kestrel has overall the better damage type for this engagement, pretty open who will win tbh. Now if we compare against the punisher, we find that kestrel can mount a web and punisher cant, so its pretty open there too. Bottom line I'd say is kestrels are very good combat frigates, just most kestrel pilots arent good combat pilots.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.06 01:44:00 - [51] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/08/2008 01:44:48 Originally by: Lilith Velkor Looking at pure dps, the kestrel (no damage mods) is pretty much on par with the rifter 8% advantage for the Rifter considering RF EMP S vs CN thorn, 13.7% considering Hail S vs Rage Thorn. It's preety much on par, but the difference is still significant there. Claiming you'd eat up Rifters while firing T1 ammo at them with 'decent' skills is purely rubbish. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.08.06 01:50:00 - [52] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 06/08/2008 01:51:09 Originally by: Cpt Branko 8% advantage for the Rifter considering RF EMP S vs CN thorn, 13.7% considering Hail S vs Rage Thorn. It's preety much on par, but the difference is still significant there. Claiming you'd eat up Rifters while firing T1 ammo at them with 'decent' skills is purely rubbish. Not that I want to get into EFT discussions, but Hail is certainly not the correct ammo choice for a frigate dogfight (cap penalty per tube, -50% tracking, range). I'm not saying kestrels tear up rifters, I'm saying they are more or less on par (better range, no tracking vs. slightly more dps and speed), and thus it depends on pilot skill.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.06 03:03:00 - [53] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Not that I want to get into EFT discussions, but Hail is certainly not the correct ammo choice for a frigate dogfight (cap penalty per tube, -50% tracking, range). This part is true, at least regarding range/tracking, particularly tracking now on SISI. It worked so far with 90% webs (was the best ammo to fight a, say, blaster-taranis, because they like being up close themselves), now it will work much worse. Hail got a big nerf with the current webs. RF EMP (or anything else) is a fine choice, however, and no tracking issues at all. At any rate, it still affords a sizeable damage increase over a Kestrel without gyrostabs/BCUs involved. Rifters get comparable buffer with reducing the Kestrel's DPS by some 20-30ish, if we compare 400mm RT Kestrel fits to run of the mill Rifters. I mean, the Kestrel is decent and has a chance of winning the encounter (if he menages to prevent the Rifter from coming close too soon), but I'd rather be in the Rifter, even post-patch. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.06 05:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Mara Kell Originally by: Kepakh anks for laugh. My Missile Bombardment and Missiles Projection at lvl 3 makes me hit 200m/s moving target at 8.5-9.0km, so I assume you are doing something wrong. Try launch EVE before you fly your 'daily basis' not just EFT pew pew :) Try moving yourself around the target. Just tested it out in my sacrilege and with 17600 max ideal range my HAMs stopped hitting the BC i was cruising around at around 13000. The slow speed of the rockets/HAMs causes majour problems when you are circling a target. So your are doing something wrong or leaving out some data, as missile/rocket start flight at 0 speed and are unaffected by your speed.
Xyleya moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.08.06 10:32:00 - [55] Originally by: Kepakh Rage Rockets >.> ...thanks for laugh. My Missile Bombardment and Missiles Projection at lvl 3 makes me hit 200m/s moving target at 8.5-9.0km, so I assume you are doing something wrong. Try launch EVE before you fly your 'daily basis' not just EFT pew pew :) 200m/sec? Even if I web an Interceptor, the speed is much more like 500m/sec. That' 500m less range per second on my Rockets. And yes, Rage Rockets with it's 1400m/sec explosion velocity will hit a webbed target just aswell as your Faction Rockets, but I've 1km more flighttime with Rage. And for the AC's: A Wolf with 200mm AC II and Barrage will do the same DPS as the Vengeance at 9km. Optimal + full FallOff = 50% damage = equal to the DPS of a Vengeance. For every meter I get closer to the target my DPS will increase for the AC's. .
Xyleya moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.08.06 10:38:00 - [56] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Mara Kell Originally by: Kepakh anks for laugh. My Missile Bombardment and Missiles Projection at lvl 3 makes me hit 200m/s moving target at 8.5-9.0km, so I assume you are doing something wrong. Try launch EVE before you fly your 'daily basis' not just EFT pew pew :) Try moving yourself around the target. Just tested it out in my sacrilege and with 17600 max ideal range my HAMs stopped hitting the BC i was cruising around at around 13000. The slow speed of the rockets/HAMs causes majour problems when you are circling a target. So your are doing something wrong or leaving out some data, as missile/rocket start flight at 0 speed and are unaffected by your speed. If the target is moving at 200m/sec, then you've 1km less range allready after 5 seconds of flighttime. And as he's out of Web-range the target may be using it's MWD doing 1000m/sec, reducing your HAMs range by 5km. So it's pretty possible, that he can't hit from 13000m, as: 17600m [max flighttime] - 5000m [target movement] = 12600m [maximum range] He's 400m short here, to hit the target. .
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.08.06 11:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Xyleya And for the AC's: A Wolf with 200mm AC II and Barrage will do the same DPS as the Vengeance at 9km. Optimal + full FallOff = 50% damage = equal to the DPS of a Vengeance. For every meter I get closer to the target my DPS will increase for the AC's. Couple of points: - 50% to-hit chance equals a bit under 40% effective damage, not 50%. - Wolf has three bonuses to ACs, Vengeance has just one to rockets. Wolf had bloody well better do more damage. -- Gradient forum
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.08.06 11:46:00 - [58] Assume that Rifter has one damage mod, Kestrel has none: Rifter with faction EMP does 118 DPS at 0.8 km, 59 DPS at 5.8 km. Rifter with Barrage does 103 DPS at 1.5 km, 51 DPS at 9 km. Kestrel with CN Thorn does 105 DPS at up to 10 km. Kestrel with Thorn Jav does 84 DPS at up to 29 km. Of course, the Kestrel doesn't have the mobility to stay at 25 km when fighting a Rifter. But, for a T1 frigate, its ability to project DPS is exceptional. And it doesn't lack for DPS in a close-range brawl, either. But a critical feature of frigates is mobility - hence the general preference for the Rifter.
Xyleya moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.08.06 12:42:00 - [59] Originally by: Gypsio III Assume that Rifter has one damage mod, Kestrel has none: Rifter with faction EMP does 118 DPS at 0.8 km, 59 DPS at 5.8 km. Rifter with Barrage does 103 DPS at 1.5 km, 51 DPS at 9 km. Kestrel with CN Thorn does 105 DPS at up to 10 km. Kestrel with Thorn Jav does 84 DPS at up to 29 km. Of course, the Kestrel doesn't have the mobility to stay at 25 km when fighting a Rifter. But, for a T1 frigate, its ability to project DPS is exceptional. And it doesn't lack for DPS in a close-range brawl, either. But a critical feature of frigates is mobility - hence the general preference for the Rifter. 10km is max flightime, not max range es explained before and Javelins? lol Javelins have 700m/sec explosion velocity. You won't hit moving a frigate with it. .
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:04:00 - [60] You don't need to explain missile dynamics to me. 10 km is web range. The loss of range will be due mostly to missile acceleration, and it will be largely inconsequential. It's simply not an issue. Explosion velocity of Javelins? You're wrong - it's 750 m/s - and in reality, in a 1v1, no frigate going fast enough to take reduced damage from Jav will remain at that range - because it can't do anything to the Kestrel either. It'll either disengage or close range.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:41:00 - [61] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/08/2008 13:42:20 Originally by: Gypsio III Assume that Rifter has one damage mod, Kestrel has none: Rifter with faction EMP does 118 DPS at 0.8 km, 59 DPS at 5.8 km. Rifter with Barrage does 103 DPS at 1.5 km, 51 DPS at 9 km. Yes, but things go very badly for the Kestrel if the Rifter starts out at closer range (for instance, scrambler range, popular on frigates due to capacitor), and a competent Rifter pilot should not have too many issues closing said range. Naturally, the ability to project said DPS well out of webrange is a big thing, although at much reduced velocity. However, the Kestrel is rather unique because of the 10%/level bonus + 5%/level bonus. If 10%/level bonuses were the norm for rocket ships, then rockets would be fine, but they're not. So either the damage bonus on the Kestrel is too big and rockets need a boost (which also helps ships using rockets as a additional damage tool), or it's fine and other rocket ships need 10%/level bonuses. I hope that clarifies my position a bit more. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:00:00 - [62] Originally by: Cpt Branko However, the Kestrel is rather unique because of the 10%/level bonus + 5%/level bonus. If 10%/level bonuses were the norm for rocket ships, then rockets would be fine, but they're not. So either the damage bonus on the Kestrel is too big and rockets need a boost (which also helps ships using rockets as a additional damage tool), or it's fine and other rocket ships need 10%/level bonuses. I hope that clarifies my position a bit more. Kestrel uses both of its bonuses to get +10%/level to kinetic missile damage and +5%/level to non-kinetic missile damage (so kinetic missiles get +10%/level total, not both +10%/level and +5%/level), so I don't think you can consider that to be seriously out of whack with other bonuses. -- Gradient forum
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:09:00 - [63] Originally by: Cpt Branko Yes, but things go very badly for the Kestrel if the Rifter starts out at closer range (for instance, scrambler range, popular on frigates due to capacitor), and a competent Rifter pilot should not have too many issues closing said range. Naturally, the ability to project said DPS well out of webrange is a big thing, although at much reduced velocity. However, the Kestrel is rather unique because of the 10%/level bonus + 5%/level bonus. If 10%/level bonuses were the norm for rocket ships, then rockets would be fine, but they're not. So either the damage bonus on the Kestrel is too big and rockets need a boost (which also helps ships using rockets as a additional damage tool), or it's fine and other rocket ships need 10%/level bonuses. I hope that clarifies my position a bit more. I agree on all counts. I think the Kestrel and Rifter are well balanced, given their different tiers and different roles. You're also spot-on about the difference between Rockets and a Rocket Kestrel. Rockets really aren't that great, but the Kestrel's bonuses make it a solid ship. But that leads to problems with the Hawk and Vengeance, where the first response is typically that they're outdamaged by a Kestrel - but that's really because of the Kestrel's double damage bonus, and the lack of the fourth bonus on AFs. I'm not sure how I'd fix this. Actually, I'm not sure if it needs fixing - if AFs are boosted to have a true role as heavy tackler, then DPS isn't really a concern for them.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:38:00 - [64] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 06/08/2008 20:42:28 Originally by: Xyleya Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Mara Kell Try moving yourself around the target. Just tested it out in my sacrilege and with 17600 max ideal range my HAMs stopped hitting the BC i was cruising around at around 13000. The slow speed of the rockets/HAMs causes majour problems when you are circling a target. So your are doing something wrong or leaving out some data, as missile/rocket start flight at 0 speed and are unaffected by your speed. If the target is moving at 200m/sec, then you've 1km less range allready after 5 seconds of flighttime. And as he's out of Web-range the target may be using it's MWD doing 1000m/sec, reducing your HAMs range by 5km. So it's pretty possible, that he can't hit from 13000m, as: 17600m [max flighttime] - 5000m [target movement] = 12600m [maximum range] He's 400m short here, to hit the target. But she say: Try moving yourself around the target again and again. her movement make no difference at all. Instead she has repeated several times that her movement somewhat change the range of her rockets. So next time instead of deciding what is commented, read the damn quotes too.

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