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[Idea] Using ISK toward real world charity.

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Uilliam Nebel Amarr 13th Udorian Rangers	Posted - 2008.08.04 22:17:00 - [1] This might seem like a silly idea, but I figured I might as well share it and see if anyone else thinks it could work. As I was reading the IGS and seeing people's in character replies to the fictional news story about the two teens in Rens who blinded themselves. I noticed that several people have offered to make donations of ISK. Now realistically, those donations will never be collected on. But it got me thinking back to another fictional event, the disaster that laid the framework for the second Caldari and Gallente war when that Nyx crashed into the Ishukone Headquaters. When that took place a lot of people in character talked about contributing ISK also. So why can't their be an actual way to donate ISK? For that matter why not a way to donate ISK that could go toward charity in the real world? So here is the basic plan I thought of, 1. Players contract ISK contributions to a CCP controlled NPC. (It would have to be done by CCP. Just way to much temptation here to do a memorable scam in Eve history.) 2. At the end of every month, if the contribution is enough, one or more GTC's are bought through the normal exchange means with this ISK, but instead of being given to or used by a player the U.S. dollar value of the GTC is donated to an actual charity on CCP and the Eve player bases' behalf? I don't ever think it will be a whole lot, but it be something, and worth while in my view. / "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.)
Fahtim Meidires GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.04 22:49:00 - [2] Use in-game role-playing events to eventually benefit out of game causes. No programming required. Either way people will feel good about participating. EVE could do this, for sure (also huge press coverage, CCP). Easy 9-0 in the CSM that can take less than 5 minutes with absolutely no discussion.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.04 22:52:00 - [3] Ah, what the Hell. Can't hurt mentioning, can it?
Penchance	Posted - 2008.08.05 07:25:00 - [4] This might actually be quite successful. It's a convenient system that allows people without credit cards to contribute to a worthy cause, vastly increasing the potential "market" for donors. Furthermore, since this isn't real money we're dealing with (in practical terms, at least) people might just donate more than they would normally. One criticism I have of your idea: don't make it a monthly thing. Only do the occasional one-off donation drive for a particular cause. For best results, hold some kind of event, like a mini tournament - "Incursus Jousting" (1v1 fights in Incursus) to give an example - and the charity gets the proceeds of the event plus any supplementary donations from players. This should open the gates wide for corporate sponsorship, just like in the real world. This may be the first charity donation initiative brought about by in-game currency trading. NB Incursus is fourth declension so its plural is also incursus. Penchance: CEO and great perish of battleships
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.08.05 07:45:00 - [5] /signed Diary of a pod pilot
Gone'Postal Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.08.05 08:23:00 - [6] Would be nice. -V8I-
Sylthi Coreward Pan-Galactic	Posted - 2008.08.05 09:18:00 - [7] How could this possibly be a BAD idea? It would allow people that don't have that much to give a way to give. Fictional world(s) having an direct impact on the real world. I love it. Support. (Not that the CSM or CCP will do anything with this. But, still.) * *
Lolarina	Posted - 2008.08.05 10:10:00 - [8] wow, cause likes most charities it's fake and used for money laundering?
WishBlade Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2008.08.05 10:12:00 - [9] I'd be all for it /+1 Aweseomenessness
Obermier Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.08.05 10:24:00 - [10] Now this is creative thinking, unlike this nonsense.

Uilliam Nebel Amarr 13th Udorian Rangers	Posted - 2008.08.05 12:03:00 - [11] Edited by: Uilliam Nebel on 05/08/2008 12:04:05 Originally by: Lolarina wow, cause likes most charities it's fake and used for money laundering? I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean? Originally by: WishBlade I'd be all for it /+1 Thanks, but you didn't select the 'Support this topic' checkbox when you posted. So it does not officially count in regards to sending it to the CSM. If you have a chance, you can just go back and edit the post to add it. / "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.)
Demus DaVet Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.05 12:48:00 - [12] I definitely support this idea ---------------------------- Implement Racial Fleet Setups
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.05 13:11:00 - [13] That is a very clever idea, and would be pretty amazing PR for EVE.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.05 13:11:00 - [14] creative and simple. The mark of a brilliant idea. If you add in things like the alliance tournament, the possibilities to raise a good level of RL cash extremely credible. -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.05 13:24:00 - [15] Edited by: Heartstone on 05/08/2008 13:24:34 A sound idea that deserves the support of all. Well done Uiliam. ---
Tarun Thred Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.05 13:26:00 - [16] Fantastic idea, think of the positive publicity CCP. Only thing I would say is who gets to choose the charity?
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.05 13:47:00 - [17] Would love to see something like this implemented. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Ehrine Ashbark Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.05 13:56:00 - [18] I like the concept, but some care would be needed when working out the details of exactly how to implement - especially when it comes to picking charities to support. Definately should be looked into though I think.
Tareen Kashaar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.05 14:58:00 - [19] Sure, why not! Gives us all a good answer to CIHYS: I'm donating it to charity! ____________
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.05 17:47:00 - [20] One thing I think I missed and could be altered to make it more of a community donation and less of a CCP direct donation is for the Card to be resold by CCP for money rather than it impacting their profits. but at the end of the day, the strict detail isn't that important, only that theres a way to convert isk into a charitable donation -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting

Cassius Longinus Darkwave Technologies Pure.	Posted - 2008.08.05 18:04:00 - [21] "I know what I hate, and I don't hate this." Sure, +1, everyone wins. Charity gets $$, CCP gets writeoff's, and players... well get to feel good about themselves or something I would imagine.
J Kunjeh	Posted - 2008.08.05 18:11:00 - [22] This could be a very cool thing for CCP to do. And it could be used to support this: http://www.childsplaycharity.org/
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.05 20:09:00 - [23] Yep good idea. I'll raise it at the next meeting. Consider it on going on the agenda once the 7 day public discussion is up. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.05 21:06:00 - [24] My concern is that this might fry the GTC market, by creating a massive new demand with no new supply. Prices will certainly spike. That said, I'm still in favour of this - a good idea, and good publicity besides. But be aware that you're going to dramatically change GTC prices if you do this. Also, instead of picking one charity, CCP should set up a pile of them. A pile of dummy characters with names like "CCP Charity Child's Play" (specifically with 3+ word names if it's possible to do that, because players can't replicate those), who each check their wallets every downtime, and buy GTCs if they have the cash on hand to do so. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2008.08.05 21:55:00 - [25] i like it,i got 7 bill with nohting to buy :P _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Rob Risk	Posted - 2008.08.05 23:47:00 - [26] Sir you are a genious! Wait a second, WTF? For a moment there, I thought I had entered some other weird magical dimension. I think it might have been yours. You're really going to go with that, huh? /facepalm
Grak Yarn 13th Udorian Rangers	Posted - 2008.08.06 01:39:00 - [27] behind this one hundred and twenty percent. ______________________________________________ No expansion without equilibrium, no conquest without control. Pursue success in serenity, and service to the people.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.08.06 01:54:00 - [28] that sounds nice and all but who's dollar is being donated to charity?
Uilliam Nebel Amarr 13th Udorian Rangers	Posted - 2008.08.06 11:39:00 - [29] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton that sounds nice and all but who's dollar is being donated to charity? Well I guess that depends on if one believes ISK are indeed a form of 'virtual' asset, in the sense that they have actual value outside of Eve. If you do think they meet that criteria, then it is the people whom donate ISK's dollar, and CCP is acting as an exchange or go between to convert ISK to USD or some other form of cash. But if you don't, then it is CCP's dollar that is getting donated. Whole thing realistically is a bit of a grey area. As even though CCP does have it that the trading of ISK for 'real' world cash is against the EULA, and that by several legal mechanics they do own all ISK anyhow. But the fact that a black market exist for cash to ISK exchanging also establishes that there is a real world value for it as people are willing to trade some form of currency for them at an established rate. Also, the exchanging of UTC bought with cash for ISK also establishes a 'real' world value by proxy of the relation of UTC price, to ISK trade. / "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.)
Typhado3 Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.08.06 12:49:00 - [30] YAY now the make a wish foundation can give out free titans =) 2 issues 1. a cap on how much, don't want ccp going bankrupt 2. must be legitimate fund (ccp/your beer fund are not legitimate)

Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:11:00 - [31] Basically the ISK fund players donate to could be used to purchas GTCs, and you'd just need CCP's blessing to re-sell those GTCs through the EVE store or something for cash. It'd be great publicity for CCP to do this too.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:37:00 - [32] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton that sounds nice and all but who's dollar is being donated to charity? Isk goes to CCP charity account. Charity account goes on forums, buys GTCs with isk. CCP charity account does not activate GTCs, but instead donates their cash equivalent to charity. Isk moves from donors to GTC sellers, money moves from GTC sellers to charity. It's a bit complex, but all well-ordered.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:31:00 - [33] Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 06/08/2008 15:32:27 So basically, the result is CCP gives $$$ to charity? Edit: The idea is that you're giving ISK (which belong to CCP, not you) to CCP to give up $$$ (which also belong to CCP) away to a charity? I wonder if you considered the 'practicality' factor. My bet is that someone at CCP is having a chuckle, but I've been wrong before. San Matari Official forums
Uilliam Nebel Amarr 13th Udorian Rangers	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:00:00 - [34] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 06/08/2008 15:32:27 So basically, the result is CCP gives $$$ to charity? Edit: The idea is that you're giving ISK (which belong to CCP, not you) to CCP to give up $$$ (which also belong to CCP) away to a charity? I wonder if you considered the 'practicality' factor. My bet is that someone at CCP is having a chuckle, but I've been wrong before. Yes, if you say ISK have no real world cash value, then it is that cut and dry. However, even though the EULA does state that it is illegal to trade ISK for 'real' currency, even CCP have to admit that a ISK in sense of a market where there is demand that will pay with cash, that ISK do have some (though extremely low) real world value. As does any popular MMO's in game currency, resources, and items. Virtual assets is a very immature field of economics, with a lot of complexities to still be exactly looked at. So it will no doubt take a little figuring out to establish just what sort of value a 'contribution' of ISK actually does have, and how stable it really is. As for your point of CCP owning all ISK, well as an example the United States Federal Reserve, a quasi private and public institution, owns all the U.S. currency printed through the U.S. treasury system. Yet the United States government makes it's citizens pay it in USD for taxes, etc, etc. At a simple look it would basically be saying that the United States prints money for citizens to earn, so that it may partially collect it at a later date. But it is not nearly that simple, which would arguably also be the case here. Which is why I'd think it be great for the CSM to suggest it to CCP, so it could be examined further. / "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.)
Lia Gaeren Pole Dancing Vixens	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:06:00 - [35] Been trying to get my head around this... Sequence of events would be: Player A buys a GTC from CCP. Player A puts it on the market for however many isk. Players B-Z donate enough isk to an in game rep of the charity in question CCP 'pays' Player A the isk asked for. CCP does not activate the card (but renders it not activateable so Player A cannot re sell) CCP donates some/all of the cash they gathered from the original sale of the card to player A, to the charity involved. Winners/losers Player A is ahead - he has successfully converted his RL dollars into isk, which was the whole point of it as far as he is concerned. Players B-Z are ahead, as they have a warm fuzzy feeling. CCP are ahead, as they have received positive PR and removed a GTC from circulation without having to support the bandwidth etc required in game. CCP are ahead as they now have a tax write-off (assuming laws in Iceland regarding corporate charitable donations are similar to elsewhere). CCP are down because aside from the nominal saving of not needing to provide bandwidth and other support for the GTC user and also the amount of possible tax offsetting from the charitable donation, they have not made a profit on the card (but they've not made a loss either!). I can see this working, provided that CCP buys the GTC from a player who has already bought one with RL cash - that way they are not just removing the monies from their bottom line which they would be under a simpler model of the above process removing Player A from the equation. Disclaimer: I'm blonde. The above may be complete hogwash :)
Uilliam Nebel Amarr 13th Udorian Rangers	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:12:00 - [36] Edited by: Uilliam Nebel on 06/08/2008 16:12:51 Originally by: Lia Gaeren Been trying to get my head around this... Sequence of events would be: Player A buys a GTC from CCP. Player A puts it on the market for however many isk. Players B-Z donate enough isk to an in game rep of the charity in question CCP 'pays' Player A the isk asked for. CCP does not activate the card (but renders it not activateable so Player A cannot re sell) CCP donates some/all of the cash they gathered from the original sale of the card to player A, to the charity involved. Winners/losers Player A is ahead - he has successfully converted his RL dollars into isk, which was the whole point of it as far as he is concerned. Players B-Z are ahead, as they have a warm fuzzy feeling. CCP are ahead, as they have received positive PR and removed a GTC from circulation without having to support the bandwidth etc required in game. CCP are ahead as they now have a tax write-off (assuming laws in Iceland regarding corporate charitable donations are similar to elsewhere). CCP are down because aside from the nominal saving of not needing to provide bandwidth and other support for the GTC user and also the amount of possible tax offsetting from the charitable donation, they have not made a profit on the card (but they've not made a loss either!). I can see this working, provided that CCP buys the GTC from a player who has already bought one with RL cash - that way they are not just removing the monies from their bottom line which they would be under a simpler model of the above process removing Player A from the equation. Disclaimer: I'm blonde. The above may be complete hogwash :) No, that is pretty much as I saw it to. But I also wouldn't be surprised if someone has/could think of a better solution. / "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.)
The ChurchWarden	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:38:00 - [37] It is an interesting concept but several things need to be adressed. 1. Why doesn't CCP make ISK a Real Money economy game such as Entropia. If any MMO besides entropia has the economy to do it eve does. Of course they would need to review the entire way their economy is setup to do so because there will always have to be more losers then winners in terms of holding large quantities of isk [or could just have something like every 1 billion = 10 USD] So even say Ebank were to liquidate the entire stock would only get 10,000 ish USD assuming they have 1 trillion isk at the time. 2. Barring a RMT economy perhaps you should consider something along the lines of Players donating GTCs instead of isk. This will make things much smoother since a player can buy a GTC from another player [who bought it with cash] and then say have an option on your account page to donate GTC to charity. 3. Unequal donations. If we assume that a direct GTC donation vs an ISK donation is desirable then the GTCs USD worth at purchase should not be donated. Instead a portion should be donated such as what you'll see on tv where X amount of every dollar is donated. This means that CCP isn't cutting a grey on donated GTCs but instead donating say 50% of the USD value to charity.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:30:00 - [38] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo So basically, the result is CCP gives $$$ to charity? Edit: The idea is that you're giving ISK (which belong to CCP, not you) to CCP to give up $$$ (which also belong to CCP) away to a charity? I wonder if you considered the 'practicality' factor. My bet is that someone at CCP is having a chuckle, but I've been wrong before. No, the result is isk buyers are giving their $$$ to charity instead of it going to paying another player's subscription fees. Other than admin fees, it doesn't cost CCP a penny. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Red Raider Airbourne Demons	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:30:00 - [39] I would actually mine at times just to do this! A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Scrap Ferret	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:29:00 - [40] Nothing bad about this. CCP show us how big your heart is!!!

The ChurchWarden	Posted - 2008.08.07 01:44:00 - [41] On a side note since I just realized this... do we really want corporate sponsorship in eve for events. I mean who wants to be watching the next Alliance tourne and see the coca-cola titan warp in and go disco? ... hmmmm
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.07 02:34:00 - [42] Originally by: The ChurchWarden On a side note since I just realized this... do we really want corporate sponsorship in eve for events. I mean who wants to be watching the next Alliance tourne and see the coca-cola titan warp in and go disco? ... hmmmm I'm not sure why you raise the topic, but I'm all for it. If branding the inside of every station with Coca-Cola logos meant they got to build a server that can actually handle the player base, I'll go buy a case of the stuff right now. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Lia Gaeren Caldari Pole Dancing Vixens	Posted - 2008.08.07 16:00:00 - [43] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I'm not sure why you raise the topic, but I'm all for it. If branding the inside of every station with Coca-Cola logos meant they got to build a server that can actually handle the player base, I'll go buy a case of the stuff right now. What he said. I am used to ignoring advertising in real life, I am capable of doing it in game as well!
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.08.07 17:35:00 - [44] Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 07/08/2008 17:37:00 Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 07/08/2008 17:36:07 There's so many reasons this won't fly, that I'm only going to bother bringing up one: How do you think this will affect the isk price of GTCs? Imagine there being a new player in EVE with really deep pockets, and he is hungry for GTCs. REALLY HUNGRY, with billions of isk. There's a limited market of GTC sellers. Can you spell 'GTC isk price inflation'? Imagine a rocket on its way out of the atmosphere. Now imagine all the lost players that could only play cause they manage to gather up 400M isk every two months.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:40:00 - [45] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab There's so many reasons this won't fly, that I'm only going to bother bringing up one: How do you think this will affect the isk price of GTCs? Imagine there being a new player in EVE with really deep pockets, and he is hungry for GTCs. REALLY HUNGRY, with billions of isk. There's a limited market of GTC sellers. Can you spell 'GTC isk price inflation'? Imagine a rocket on its way out of the atmosphere. Now imagine all the lost players that could only play cause they manage to gather up 400M isk every two months. I'll agree with that somewhat, though I think it could be counteracted by CCP making it known to new players that there's a EULA-legal way to buy isk, which would probably increase the supply pretty dramatically. That said, I don't see what other problems there would be. Don't assume it's obvious - if you have reasons, share them. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Uilliam Nebel Amarr 13th Udorian Rangers	Posted - 2008.08.07 19:30:00 - [46] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 07/08/2008 17:37:00 Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 07/08/2008 17:36:07 There's so many reasons this won't fly, that I'm only going to bother bringing up one: How do you think this will affect the isk price of GTCs? Imagine there being a new player in EVE with really deep pockets, and he is hungry for GTCs. REALLY HUNGRY, with billions of isk. There's a limited market of GTC sellers. Can you spell 'GTC isk price inflation'? Imagine a rocket on its way out of the atmosphere. Now imagine all the lost players that could only play cause they manage to gather up 400M isk every two months. I think that it is a bit of a 'slippery slope' logical fallacy. How many GTC do you think this would buy a month? And after initial launch, how much will the amount donated in ISK begin to decrease, thus binging down the number of GTC for charity even more. But if it is all that great a concern, then a cap would simply have to be put in place to limit an artificial change of the open market price of GTC. Something I'm sure CCP would insist on any way if it was enacted. / "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.)
los ojos COGNET SpaceSystems Ltd	Posted - 2008.08.07 23:33:00 - [47] donating isk in-game -> donating real-world currency probably one of the most creative ideas ever to come out of an mmorpg you've got my support
Siebenthal	Posted - 2008.08.09 14:05:00 - [48] Good idea. If done right it can't hurt, only help.
Marlona Sky Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.08.09 19:31:00 - [49] This sounds like it could work. Maybe CCP could impliment something that the player gets to decide how much percentage is income from say missions and rats or whatever would go towards a real charities that they pick. Charities that are a world organization not something that is only local to one specific country per say. Like a cure for cancer or something. But if we are trading in ISK and CCP has to pay for that how would that work? The ISK could be used to sell GTC but then who from CCP would be online spamming to sell them or whatever?? Aside from that, whatever effort that is needed to make this happen would be well worth it. Could you imagine, as far as I know, nothing like this has ever been done. Wouldn't it be great if EVE Online was the first to do this?


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