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Rhanna Khurin Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.06 02:54:00 - [91] Looking upon ones posts after a good nights sleep i feel i maybe have been a bit.. hmm.. what's the word... rash with my accusations. Ah well t'was fun to rave and rant about things. I think i was just too highly strung after firing multispectral probes for an hour and not finding a single plex in many systems. Well, onto the night shift of capping systems unopposed.
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.06 03:44:00 - [92] Edited by: Richard Angevian on 06/08/2008 03:44:44 Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Riho if its true that CCP is helping one side... It's not. It's happened before... Therefore it could happen again. So it's not an unreasonable accusation. Band of Developers, cough, cough, T2 blueprints, cough...
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.06 03:51:00 - [93] Originally by: Richard Angevian Edited by: Richard Angevian on 06/08/2008 03:44:44 Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Riho if its true that CCP is helping one side... It's not. It's happened before... Therefore it could happen again. So it's not an unreasonable accusation. Band of Developers, cough, cough, T2 blueprints, cough... Tired repetition of old shit that noone cares about anymore.. cough cough.. Next time add in the 'MY RAVEN WAS FITTED WITH' to make your journey to the dark side complete. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:01:00 - [94] Edited by: Richard Angevian on 06/08/2008 04:02:19 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Richard Angevian Edited by: Richard Angevian on 06/08/2008 03:44:44 Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Riho if its true that CCP is helping one side... It's not. It's happened before... Therefore it could happen again. So it's not an unreasonable accusation. Band of Developers, cough, cough, T2 blueprints, cough... Tired repetition of old shit that noone cares about anymore.. cough cough.. Next time add in the 'MY RAVEN WAS FITTED WITH' to make your journey to the dark side complete. Look, they never came clean from that, never thoroughly investigated OTHER incidents of Dev intervention, and generally swept it under the rug (not even firing the cheating Dev). The CSM was their major new initiative coming from that, and it's already been proven a worthless PR stunt. They should have saved the money spent on the window dressing trip to Iceland instead of raising GTC prices. If you think that the T2 BPO scandal was the ONLY EVER incident of Dev cheating to help their favored alliance, you are hopelessly naive. Sorry, until a REAL independent audit of Devs who are/were part of Sov holding alliances is done, I don't trust it to not happen again. Nor should anyone else. Even if they aren't cheating now (quite a leap of faith) we still deserve an accounting of what went on in the past. And there are no doubt alliances to this day benefiting from ill gotten BPO's, the ISK they are a license to print, etc, those things need to be removed.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:05:00 - [95] People just seem to be constantly surprised, because they never really believe that developers might actually enjoy PLAYING the game as much as the average players. They get caught up in this mindset of thinking that the guys up top are either fat paper pushers or nerdy geeks looking at code all day. CCP is different. Devs and GMs have regular toons, too. When you get someone who actually loves the game like a player does, I think it's only a matter of time before they do something to bend the rules there way. But a player can't just believe that developers love the game, else they wouldn't have the excuse to pin on them whenever a fix comes down and they call it a nerf. "They don't know how to play the game!!!" Yeah, I think they do. Probably more than any player, too ;?j "The greatest offense is no defense."
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:20:00 - [96] Originally by: Richard Angevian Look, they never came clean from that, never thoroughly investigated OTHER incidents of Dev intervention, and generally swept it under the rug (not even firing the cheating Dev). The CSM was their major new initiative coming from that, and it's already been proven a worthless PR stunt. They should have saved the money spent on the window dressing trip to Iceland instead of raising GTC prices. If you think that the T2 BPO scandal was the ONLY EVER incident of Dev cheating to help their favored alliance, you are hopelessly naive. Sorry, until a REAL independent audit of Devs who are/were part of Sov holding alliances is done, I don't trust it to not happen again. Nor should anyone else. Even if they aren't cheating now (quite a leap of faith) we still deserve an accounting of what went on in the past. And there are no doubt alliances to this day benefiting from ill gotten BPO's, the ISK they are a license to print, etc, those things need to be removed. Well opinions of what exactly happened will always be open to specualtion but in my opinion CCP wanted to get first hand knowledge of how the playerbase organized and ran thier operations. The easiest way to get into an alliance at the time and still keep paranoia at a managable level was to act like some carebear research agent spammer who hit it big on the lottery. Bam. Instant acceptance with little to no impact on the game as a whole due to the introduction of arguably individualy extrememly profitable T2 bpos but insignificantly profitable when taken as a percentage of an alliances total income stream. Translation: Yes if you as an individual had those bpos you would never have to worry about isk again but for an alliance it was just another .005% gain on their bottom line. Hardly the amount of isk that gives any organized body even the slightest edge over thier rivals. However the vocal forums plebs only see the individual gain and not the overall impact so they go 'OMGZ U GOTZ A FREE T2 BPO SO YOU MUST THEREFORE WIN EVE WITH A RAPIER BPO AND A BUNCH OF T2 AMMO!!!!111111'. CCP got caught doing this and ratted on by a known hater of eve who couldn't care less about the greater good and just wanted his 15 minutes of internetz fame. Epic Political Metagaming Lulz Of DOOM ensued on the forums and here we are now. Nice try mate but information beats innuendo every time. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:21:00 - [97] Originally by: Ruze People just seem to be constantly surprised, because they never really believe that developers might actually enjoy PLAYING the game as much as the average players. They get caught up in this mindset of thinking that the guys up top are either fat paper pushers or nerdy geeks looking at code all day. CCP is different. Devs and GMs have regular toons, too. When you get someone who actually loves the game like a player does, I think it's only a matter of time before they do something to bend the rules there way. But a player can't just believe that developers love the game, else they wouldn't have the excuse to pin on them whenever a fix comes down and they call it a nerf. "They don't know how to play the game!!!" Yeah, I think they do. Probably more than any player, too ;?j The nanofits the Devs were mentioning in the few times they actually tried to respond in the nerf blog post proved that the people in charge of this update have no clue how to fit a ship, because they are used to "God Mode" faction mods, implants, etc which 99% of us can't afford to fight with. One wonders how people who hold down a regular full time job (as I do) even if playing hardcore in all their spare time (as I do) can afford that kind of stuff when those who play by the rules in the "real world" of the game with risk, losses, no real chance to loot that stuff except by extreme luck would be INSANE to buy, much less field that in a gang!
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:26:00 - [98] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Richard Angevian Look, they never came clean from that, never thoroughly investigated OTHER incidents of Dev intervention, and generally swept it under the rug (not even firing the cheating Dev). The CSM was their major new initiative coming from that, and it's already been proven a worthless PR stunt. They should have saved the money spent on the window dressing trip to Iceland instead of raising GTC prices. If you think that the T2 BPO scandal was the ONLY EVER incident of Dev cheating to help their favored alliance, you are hopelessly naive. Sorry, until a REAL independent audit of Devs who are/were part of Sov holding alliances is done, I don't trust it to not happen again. Nor should anyone else. Even if they aren't cheating now (quite a leap of faith) we still deserve an accounting of what went on in the past. And there are no doubt alliances to this day benefiting from ill gotten BPO's, the ISK they are a license to print, etc, those things need to be removed. Well opinions of what exactly happened will always be open to specualtion but in my opinion CCP wanted to get first hand knowledge of how the playerbase organized and ran thier operations. The easiest way to get into an alliance at the time and still keep paranoia at a managable level was to act like some carebear research agent spammer who hit it big on the lottery. Bam. Instant acceptance with little to no impact on the game as a whole due to the introduction of arguably individualy extrememly profitable T2 bpos but insignificantly profitable when taken as a percentage of an alliances total income stream. Translation: Yes if you as an individual had those bpos you would never have to worry about isk again but for an alliance it was just another .005% gain on their bottom line. Hardly the amount of isk that gives any organized body even the slightest edge over thier rivals. However the vocal forums plebs only see the individual gain and not the overall impact so they go 'OMGZ U GOTZ A FREE T2 BPO SO YOU MUST THEREFORE WIN EVE WITH A RAPIER BPO AND A BUNCH OF T2 AMMO!!!!111111'. CCP got caught doing this and ratted on by a known hater of eve who couldn't care less about the greater good and just wanted his 15 minutes of internetz fame. Epic Political Metagaming Lulz Of DOOM ensued on the forums and here we are now. Nice try mate but information beats innuendo every time. I'm not at all against the Devs playing the game. But they need to be kept honest, and so do the alliances that they are in. They should have to play the game with a client that is basically "phone home to CCP" spyware that monitors them in ways that we don't get monitored. We should get (at least) monthly a statistical accounting of the number of Devs in each alliance. That way if something funny happens there is evidence. Indeed, I think this would prevent funny business because the Devs would then have to go out of their way to avoid such an impression. Devs don't even have to over the top cheat like giving out BPO's to give their pet alliance an unfair advantage. Advance knowledge of upcoming game changes (ie: what is getting nerfed, what is being enhanced, etc) can be even MORE valuable!
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:40:00 - [99] Originally by: Richard Angevian I'm not at all against the Devs playing the game. But they need to be kept honest, and so do the alliances that they are in. They should have to play the game with a client that is basically "phone home to CCP" spyware that monitors them in ways that we don't get monitored. We should get (at least) monthly a statistical accounting of the number of Devs in each alliance. That way if something funny happens there is evidence. The T2 BPO scandal NEVER would have come to light had not players themselves discovered it and forced CCP to acknowledge it. Indeed, I think this would prevent funny business because the Devs would then have to go out of their way to avoid such an impression. Devs don't even have to over the top cheat like giving out BPO's to give their pet alliance an unfair advantage. Advance knowledge of upcoming game changes (ie: what is getting nerfed, what is being enhanced, etc) can be even MORE valuable! Now your venturing into pure speculation. Did CCP have an agent in Bob who got in by vetting himself with a nice T2 portfolio? Yes. Was Bob the only alliance that CCP entered this way? No. Could the maximum amount of isk that could be generated off the spawned T2 bpos have any truely significant impact on alliance balance? No. (Especially as the bpos were common enough that every alliance had a few and with multiple alliances infiltrated by CCP with similar bpos it would simply balance out overall.) Big picture mate. Big picture. And as to the allegations that CCP gave out game winning intel to any one alliance well that is total specutation and pure paranoia on your part. Did they do it? Who knows and dwelling on it will just make you bitter and enjoy the game less. In my opinion they would be stupider than stupid to give out intel no matter how much they might personally like a specific alliance due to the simple fact that it will eventually get out. T20 proved that and to me that should have put any and all temptations to play favorite in the bin and tossed out the back door. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:44:00 - [100] Originally by: Richard Angevian We should get (at least) monthly a statistical accounting of the number of Devs in each alliance. That way if something funny happens there is evidence. That's the part I don't agree with, right there. I mean, is their game. We're not buying stock in the company, we are buying their product. They own the rulebook, and can change it at any time. If they decided to cheat, there's nothing that SHOULD stop them, besides morals. I don't think players have the RIGHT to check out what the game producers are doing. If ever we don't trust it or think it's crooked, it's up to US to decide to continue playing or not. This whole deal about players keeping an eye on devs, or player-voted organization pushing issues in front of devs ... it's just wrong. PLAYERS need to get it out of their heads. They aren't contracting CCP to build the game like they want it. They aren't hiring CCP to do anything more than use CCP's server space and their client product for a specific period of time, usually 30-60 days. As soon as players start acting like consumers, instead of VIP's ... I had the dubious pleasure of working at a few McD's as a teen. Only ONE manager was ever worth a crap. Give a customer a good product. Go out of your way to please them. But as soon as a customer starts getting hysterical, it's time to grab your balls and tell them to leave. You make a mistake, you admit it and move on. Holding someone's past over their head, or trying to use it as a leverage tool ... that's when you aren't a customer any longer. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:47:00 - [101] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Richard Angevian I'm not at all against the Devs playing the game. But they need to be kept honest, and so do the alliances that they are in. They should have to play the game with a client that is basically "phone home to CCP" spyware that monitors them in ways that we don't get monitored. We should get (at least) monthly a statistical accounting of the number of Devs in each alliance. That way if something funny happens there is evidence. The T2 BPO scandal NEVER would have come to light had not players themselves discovered it and forced CCP to acknowledge it. Indeed, I think this would prevent funny business because the Devs would then have to go out of their way to avoid such an impression. Devs don't even have to over the top cheat like giving out BPO's to give their pet alliance an unfair advantage. Advance knowledge of upcoming game changes (ie: what is getting nerfed, what is being enhanced, etc) can be even MORE valuable! Now your venturing into pure speculation. Did CCP have an agent in Bob who got in by vetting himself with a nice T2 portfolio? Yes. Was Bob the only alliance that CCP entered this way? No. Could the maximum amount of isk that could be generated off the spawned T2 bpos have any truely significant impact on alliance balance? No. (Especially as the bpos were common enough that every alliance had a few and with multiple alliances infiltrated by CCP with similar bpos it would simply balance out overall.) Big picture mate. Big picture. And as to the allegations that CCP gave out game winning intel to any one alliance well that is total specutation and pure paranoia on your part. Did they do it? Who knows and dwelling on it will just make you bitter and enjoy the game less. In my opinion they would be stupider than stupid to give out intel no matter how much they might personally like a specific alliance due to the simple fact that it will eventually get out. T20 proved that and to me that should have put any and all temptations to play favorite in the bin and tossed out the back door. T20 was the one dumb enough to get caught. What he did was so overt (becoming a senior member of BOB leadership) as to beg to be caught. My argument is they NEVER BOTHERED TO INVESTIGATE everyone else! The investigation (if there was one) stopped at the ONE exposed Dev, never found any others, and didn't even result in his termination! It was like Nixon being allowed to remain President even after Watergate. Look, you don't have to have "sexy" T2 BPO's to have ones that will almost certainly give you a ISK printing press. T2 cap rechargers? A must have item, no? T2 weapon upgrades? T2 weapons? Get the picture?
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 04:52:00 - [102] And furthermore, while I ain't 100% on any of this, I'm sure in some dark corner of the law there is a way to 'falsely accuse' a company of malpractice. Might not work through international yadda yadda, but just maybe it's worth considering. Of course, you'd have to accuse them of intentionally taking money from players or something, because they are full and well within their rights to adjust the gameworld in any way they see fit. Give a group BPO's? Give that team a new station? Oh, how about just removing some systems here and there? It's their world. We just play in it. But we play in it by their rules. Case in point, tomorrow they could say that all scams or player-vs-player attacks in low-sec are considered grief tactics, and start swinging the ban hammer. There is nothing that would stop them. And there is nothing that SHOULD stop them, besides their own idea of how the game should be (which I hope is close to my own ). "The greatest offense is no defense."
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.06 05:03:00 - [103] Originally by: Richard Angevian T20 was the one dumb enough to get caught. What he did was so overt (becoming a senior member of BOB leadership) as to beg to be caught. My argument is they NEVER BOTHERED TO INVESTIGATE everyone else! The investigation (if there was one) stopped at the ONE exposed Dev, never found any others, and didn't even result in his termination! It was like Nixon being allowed to remain President even after Watergate. Look, you don't have to have "sexy" T2 BPO's to have ones that will almost certainly give you a ISK printing press. T2 cap rechargers? A must have item, no? T2 weapon upgrades? T2 weapons? Get the picture? You're not getting it are you? The T2 bpos involved were irrelevant. The impact they had even if Bob was the only alliance to get them was insignificant at best. Wtf was supposted to happen? Did Bob go on a rampage with blobs of Rapiers with holds filled with T2 ammo? Wtf could they accomplish even if they did? A few alliance members ratting in belts could exceed the income from the spawned bpos after factoring in time needed to gather materials, produce the items in meaningful quantities and then transport the items to a place to get maximum profit. Nothing Bob or any other alliance got was rare or inobtainable through normal means of aquisition. CCP didn't 'investigate' anything else because they already knew what devs were in what alliances in what positions. They did this to try to figure out how to balance the game and make it a better place for you as a player to enjoy. Please explain how any of this is even remotely sinister on CCPs part? Oh wait.. I completely forgot about blind paranoia. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Hepziba	Posted - 2008.08.06 05:05:00 - [104] They own it, we just pay for access to it.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.06 05:50:00 - [105] Originally by: CCP Ginger What happens in FW will always be up to the players. However, as much as the storyline is involved ... endings based on what the players did or did not manage to do. Yay! Thanks for the clarification! This is how things should be
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.08.06 06:11:00 - [106] This is how it should be, if you think about it. Minmatar have the rage and motivation of an enslaved race getting revenge. Amarr have God. Originally by: Rawr Cristina (dreadnoughts are also possibly the most boring ship you could fly. It's like mining, without the part where you make money)
Karanth Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.08.06 08:42:00 - [107] Gas this thread ASAP, it's become more ******ed than the Home Shopping Network. P.S. MY RAVEN IS FIT WITH THE FOLLOWING: Warp Speed skill needed!
Vee Raa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.06 09:35:00 - [108] now that we cleared the tin-foil-hattery ... can someone tell me now how many minmatar reporters there are ? i mean, c'mon, minnies captured a half dozen systems the last month and no news about it, to be more precise, there aren't any news newer than 2 months in the minnie warfare info window thingy, compare to the 'news-love' the amarrs get for example, someone could start to think that the resources from CCP side arent distributed equally.
qanatas Minmatar Third Return - Talons	Posted - 2008.08.06 09:49:00 - [109] The interest to cap plexes on minnie side has been declining greatly the past few weeks, it¦s also reflected in the numbers. I wonder if CCP has any future plans for FW, they better hurry up, before interest starts to decline even more.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.06 11:38:00 - [110] Originally by: qanatas The interest to cap plexes on minnie side has been declining greatly the past few weeks, it¦s also reflected in the numbers. I wonder if CCP has any future plans for FW, they better hurry up, before interest starts to decline even more. There was always going to be a drop off in interest as people are prone to all get involved with the latest new and shiny innovation before going back to whatever they were doing before. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Cat Gilligan Caldari Blair Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 11:58:00 - [111] Originally by: qanatas The interest to cap plexes on minnie side has been declining greatly the past few weeks, it¦s also reflected in the numbers. I wonder if CCP has any future plans for FW, they better hurry up, before interest starts to decline even more. This is the point where the decision to exclude players/corps who are part of alliances from being able to participate in FW comes back to bite them in the ass. The people who got into FW by now are moving on to 0.0 and alliances, which is the real game (why bother to fight for space and lose ships for space you don't own?), or else going back to highsec where they can make ISK with low risk.
Galliana Foresta Gallente Fleeting Moments of Insanity	Posted - 2008.08.06 12:10:00 - [112] Tbh this thread stinks of someone on a team that was winning, and is now losing. Cry moar OP. Or get 0utbreak to drop some moms on us while we cap plexes in your back yards all day, then shoot you in the face when you rush to stop us. View the stats before you smack - should be the #1 rule of FW tbh. HIRING\|KB\|PRESS
Rhanna Khurin Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.06 12:13:00 - [113] Originally by: Galliana Foresta Tbh this thread stinks of someone on a team that was winning, and is now losing. Cry moar OP. Or get 0utbreak to drop some moms on us while we cap plexes in your back yards all day, then shoot you in the face when you rush to stop us. View the stats before you smack - should be the #1 rule of FW tbh. I have already taken back what i said. Also what is it with your Amarr puppets that you think you take more plexes than us and then point at the FW stats which show you have taken a lot less.
Coddity	Posted - 2008.08.06 12:35:00 - [114] Edited by: Coddity on 06/08/2008 12:35:12 Edited by: Coddity on 06/08/2008 12:34:56 Originally by: qanatas The interest to cap plexes on minnie side has been declining greatly the past few weeks, it¦s also reflected in the numbers. Essentially this. Personally, I think it's simply that the Amarrian militia focused on taking Huola, whilst the Minmatar militia didn't focus enough on stopping them.
Francis Inch Amarr Lightyear Inc	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:33:00 - [115] Originally by: Cat Gilligan This is the point where the decision to exclude players/corps who are part of alliances from being able to participate in FW comes back to bite them in the ass. The people who got into FW by now are moving on to 0.0 and alliances, which is the real game (why bother to fight for space and lose ships for space you don't own?), or else going back to highsec where they can make ISK with low risk. But moving more people into 0.0 byt offering a low sec stepping stone was one of CCPs stated purposes of Faction Warfare - and so if it does that, then CCP have done what they set out to do in that respect.
Rhanna Khurin Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:41:00 - [116] Originally by: Francis Inch Originally by: Cat Gilligan This is the point where the decision to exclude players/corps who are part of alliances from being able to participate in FW comes back to bite them in the ass. The people who got into FW by now are moving on to 0.0 and alliances, which is the real game (why bother to fight for space and lose ships for space you don't own?), or else going back to highsec where they can make ISK with low risk. But moving more people into 0.0 byt offering a low sec stepping stone was one of CCPs stated purposes of Faction Warfare - and so if it does that, then CCP have done what they set out to do in that respect. As much as i dislike agreeing with an Amarrian, he's damned right
Vaarun Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:43:00 - [117] Originally by: CCP Ginger Im not really going to comment on the bias accusations here, what happens in FW will always be up to the players. However, as much as the storyline is involved, this particular one was scripted by our mercury volunteer team and had/has multiple continuations and endings based on what the players did or did not manage to do. Its necessity because we really have no idea how the players are going to react or whether they will be successful or not. Hope your enjoying it. I assumed as much. And I am enjoying it. Minor storylines are a great interation for players. Had we failed, the Minmatar would have had that side of the storyline revealed. It's like one of those adventure books: "If you choose to defend Huola against the Amarr Militia and not let it be conquered, GO TO PAGE 16." "If you choose to let Huola fall to the Amarr Militia, GO TO PAGE 22." We are on page 22...let's read what it says... "To bring order to chaos, one must bring chaos to its knees." -Vaarun
Vaarun Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:52:00 - [118] Edited by: Vaarun on 06/08/2008 17:54:37 Originally by: Jones Bones Originally by: Vaarun Stuff Stop fitting WCSx2 and we'll consider your opinion valid. Stop fitting scramblers, and I'll stop fitting them! That ship was for a specific purpose, but I won't explain it if you cannot figure it out. Value my opinion or not, I do not care. Huola has been reclaimed and that is all the validity I need... "To bring order to chaos, one must bring chaos to its knees." -Vaarun

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