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Level 4 missions in high sec gives too much reward for too little risk

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Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:31:00 - [31] less people whoring it up in officer fit cnrs in highsec =P We will not walk in fear of one another.
heheheh The Scope	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:32:00 - [32] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 06/08/2008 13:29:56 Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: heheheh all level 4s should be moved to low sec. All the ones with decent rewards already are. High sec missions give very little by comparison. Little risk, little reward High risk, higher reward Seems like it's working fine to me. not all level fours are in low sec, I said move ALL level 4s to low sec. To accomplish exactly what? RISK / REWARD no one should be able to make that amount of ISK with no risk whatsoever in High sec.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:32:00 - [33] Edited by: Tippia on 06/08/2008 13:34:57 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Viqtoria it would make the rich vastly richer, so no. Yeah, you're right: endless, unlimited money-fountains should be kept in hi-sec. Wouldn't happen anyway unless you removed 0.0 rat spawns… As for the topic at hand: time to revive the age-old suggestion to make NPCs more like players. Give them intelligent(ish) fits; reduce their numbers; make them stronger; make PvP tactics and fits work in PvE. Increases the danger of missions and adds the benefit of making missioning in the lower-secs more viable since the skills and equipment needed to fight off the pirates will be the same as the ones needed to kill the NPCs.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:33:00 - [34] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: heheheh all level 4s should be moved to low sec. All the ones with decent rewards already are. High sec missions give very little by comparison. Little risk, little reward High risk, higher reward Seems like it's working fine to me. Um, the net reward difference between lo-sec and hi-sec L4s is not that large. Especially when you consider the advantages a hi-sec missioner has. Seem like the vast majority recognise this obvious fact. Including me - I hi-sec mission because it's the easiest, most lucrative way to accumulate a lot of ISK with essentially no risk. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
TrulyKosh Gallente Solo for UNCLE	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:34:00 - [35] Originally by: heheheh RISK / REWARD no one should be able to make that amount of ISK with no risk whatsoever in 0.0 fixed it for you
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:35:00 - [36] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 06/08/2008 13:36:23 Moving missions to low sec does not really do anything. People will just move to running lvl3's insted, or become a 0.0 carebear ratting in a wcs cloak raven that is almost impossible to take down. In short, they will become worse carebears. Demand for modules from 0.0/lowsec such as core-x stuff etc etc will plummet. Also, the isk made on lvl3's would be too low for the part time pvper to ever buy, thus reducing pvp. Im not really sure how this would help pvp, given that a lot of FW corps basically use missions to build a stockpile that the corp uses for FW pvp. Tbh, not sure what pvper would benifit long term. Note the words Long Term. -- Billion Isk Mission
heheheh The Scope	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:36:00 - [37] Originally by: TrulyKosh Originally by: heheheh RISK / REWARD no one should be able to make that amount of ISK with no risk whatsoever in 0.0 fixed it for you I take it youve never been there judging by that ridiculous alteration.
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:38:00 - [38] I'm more in favor of simply nerfing the crap out of L4s in high sec than moving them, but I agree with the premise stated in the thread's title. ___________________________________________
TrulyKosh Gallente Solo for UNCLE	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:39:00 - [39] Originally by: heheheh Originally by: TrulyKosh Originally by: heheheh RISK / REWARD no one should be able to make that amount of ISK with no risk whatsoever in 0.0 fixed it for you I take it youve never been there judging by that ridiculous alteration. several years, and you? you're not trying to tell me that no 0.0 dweller ever hid at a pos whenever a red shows in the next system, are you?
Viqtoria Caldari Groping Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Viqtoria it would make the rich vastly richer, so no. Yeah, you're right: endless, unlimited money-fountains should be kept in hi-sec. they are the staple source of income for the vast majority of players, players who keep ccp fridges full of beer. Take that isk lubricating the economy away funding pvp and industry everywhere and eve goes bye-bye along with the wages of ccp staff. You have to make a distinction between what you want a game to be like, what you think it should be like, and real word responsibilities
heheheh The Scope	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:41:00 - [41] Originally by: TrulyKosh Originally by: heheheh Originally by: TrulyKosh Originally by: heheheh RISK / REWARD no one should be able to make that amount of ISK with no risk whatsoever in 0.0 fixed it for you I take it youve never been there judging by that ridiculous alteration. several years, and you? you're not trying to tell me that no 0.0 dweller ever hid at a pos whenever a red shows in the next system, are you? Several years for me also, Its a hell of alot riskier in 0.0.
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:41:00 - [42] Edited by: Delichon on 06/08/2008 13:41:49 Originally by: heheheh I take it youve never been there judging by that ridiculous alteration. I take it you never were part of a proper 0.0 alliance that knows how to protect its members. I was in alliance in NC. 101% risk safe, I tell you. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:43:00 - [43] The problem is the risk vs reward is too high for the average player in low sec. The only people who disagree with me are the games most competent players. As is if normal players try to run low sec missions they will lose money over time. People who lose mony over time end up quiing. You need a system with some risk but at a level where the prrofit out weighs the risk for an average player - we are no where near that. If normal players moved in mass to low sec competent predators would scan them all out and kill most of them. Wherever you went - here you are.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:46:00 - [44] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 06/08/2008 13:46:40 If you rat risk free in 0.0, it's because your corp/alliance works to protect the space. In highsec risk free is a given. Slight difference there. - DesuSigs
Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:47:00 - [45] Originally by: Delichon Removing insurance for conkordokken ships will actually cure inflation. Because: Runner A earns 1 bil isk and buys 1 bil worth of modules Ganker B buys 1 bil worth of isk in ships and insuranse Ganker B kills Runner A and get's 500 mil in A's modules + 700 to 900 mill in insurance payouts (depending on the price of the ship before insurance) Economy has 1.2 to 1.4 bill ISK now. After the patch Runner A earns 1 bill ISK Ganker B emoragequits over the nerf. Economy has 1 bill in ISK now. Errm ... where do you think all the liquid ISK that floats in EVE come from? Miners - Nope Industrialist - Nope Moon miners - Nope Reserchers - Nope Gankers - Nope Haulers ferrying NPC products - Yes Ratters - YES Mission runners - Big YES Insurance - Yes (but typically at a loss) (anything else I forgot to mention?) Griefing on mission runners (as per your desc above) quite actually have the opposite effect. You nerf their means of income by killing their ships, the net result would be less ISK added to the economy pool. Now, who'll have the money to buy all that products then?
Terror Rising Death Of Fallen Angels	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:48:00 - [46] Actually trading gives too much reward for little risk, so does manufacturing, so does 0.0 ratting with a cloak .. Lets nerf the lot, in fact .. sod it, lets nerf isk all together ..
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:53:00 - [47] Originally by: Sturmwolke Griefing on mission runners (as per your desc above) quite actually have the opposite effect. You nerf their means of income by killing their ships, the net result would be less ISK added to the economy pool. Your "nerf" on the mission runner is tiny if existant. Do you really think that destroying a CNR stops the player who owned it from making ISK? It would only slow him down as he would have to make do with a usual Raven - BUT he would probably spend more time online to cope with the loss, so actually no nerf at all. The fact that you BS have popped does not mean that you have to start doing Level 1 missions again :) ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Crae Matreki Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:53:00 - [48] I smell a suicide ganker! The only thing that needs changing with level 4 missions is the loot drops - it's made mining in lowsec unnecessary, as it can all be reprocessed from mission loot. If you adjust the loot, people will have to head into lowsec, and belts will again be populated with miners and their protection!
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:01:00 - [49] Originally by: Delichon Edited by: Delichon on 06/08/2008 13:41:49 Originally by: heheheh I take it youve never been there judging by that ridiculous alteration. I take it you never were part of a proper 0.0 alliance that knows how to protect its members. I was in alliance in NC. 101% risk safe, I tell you. Ah, so you were one of those guys who just joined an alliance to rat in the best systems, and never did anything to secure or defend your space? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Lucy'Lastic Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:03:00 - [50] Yesterday I had a Chicken sandwich. The bread was a bit dry so I had something to drink. Today I might have Tuna.
Serj Darek Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:03:00 - [51] I agree, move all level 4+ missions to low-sec. First!
Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:06:00 - [52] Originally by: Delichon Your "nerf" on the mission runner is tiny if existant. Do you really think that destroying a CNR stops the player who owned it from making ISK? It would only slow him down as he would have to make do with a usual Raven - BUT he would probably spend more time online to cope with the loss, so actually no nerf at all. The fact that you BS have popped does not mean that you have to start doing Level 1 missions again :) Wrongly quoted in the original post (now removed), was more of a reply towards the OP. Anyway, the main point is about net ISK flowing into the economy. This has little to do with whether the mission runners recover it by running mission again nor does it relate fully to spending more time online. Simply put, in a parallel universe where mission runners do missions with no major setbacks - the hundreds or even thousands of them will pump billions into the economy. Measure both of these universe over time, and you'll see that your point above is moot.
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:07:00 - [53] Originally by: Malcanis Ah, so you were one of those guys who just joined an alliance to rat in the best systems, and never did anything to secure or defend your space? You have to be blind, deaf and stupid to lose a ship while ratting in friendly 0.0 You have to be a Dev NOT to lose one when you PVP. I am neither, so I lost quite a few ships - but not once have I've been caught in belt. Anf you? ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:08:00 - [54] Thread just got promoted \o/ Expect it to die about now. - DesuSigs
Veldya Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:12:00 - [55] Originally by: Steve Hawkings Originally by: Sabine Demsky 0.0 ratting is much more profitable and much more safe and easy. Do you actually read what you post or just post it ? how us ratting in 0.0 more safe than running level 4s in high sec ? I think the point he was making is you earn much more ratting with less risk, especially if you have access to well secured area. Even if enemies do come into system you really have to be asleep to lose a ratting ship. You don't really need a strong tank to rat so you can quite easily rat in PvP setups which at least gives you a fighting chance. L4s require one-dimensional setups which are pretty easy for pirates to pick apart.
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:14:00 - [56] Originally by: Sturmwolke Simply put, in a parallel universe where mission runners do missions with no major setbacks - the hundreds or even thousands of them will pump billions into the economy. Measure both of these universe over time, and you'll see that your point above is moot. That's the point of our disagreement. I say that your parallel universe is EVE today. There are thousands of mission runners - just add up local counts in Motsu + Umokka + Dodixie and some Ammar/Matar systems on a usual Friday evening. You will get more than a thousand. They are pumping billions ISK into the economy. Suicide ganks are not setting them back (they might injure someone in particular, but they make little effect over economy as a whole) Removing insurance removes an ISK facet while not making another ISK facet (mission running) any stronger - because it can't get any stronger. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Crae Matreki Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:16:00 - [57] If they moved lvl 4 missions to lowsec, I just wouldn't do them. To do a level 4 requires some very expensive fittings, and it's so easy to scan down mission runners that I'd probably end up losing more than I was gaining. Risk vs. reward? The reward wouldn't be worth it.
heheheh The Scope	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:17:00 - [58] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 06/08/2008 13:46:40 If you rat risk free in 0.0, it's because your corp/alliance works to protect the space. In highsec risk free is a given. Slight difference there. Too true and its only safe if you are in one of the big alliances, or you pay them to be pets.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:18:00 - [59] Edited by: Steve Hawkings on 06/08/2008 14:19:30 Edited by: Steve Hawkings on 06/08/2008 14:19:03 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Delichon Edited by: Delichon on 06/08/2008 13:41:49 Originally by: heheheh I take it youve never been there judging by that ridiculous alteration. I take it you never were part of a proper 0.0 alliance that knows how to protect its members. I was in alliance in NC. 101% risk safe, I tell you. Ah, so you were one of those guys who just joined an alliance to rat in the best systems, and never did anything to secure or defend your space? haha yep and if not he probably paid to rat there also. The fact still remains its too easy to run high sec missions and make billions.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:24:00 - [60] Originally by: Crae Matreki To do a level 4 requires some very expensive fittings, and it's so easy to scan down mission runners that I'd probably end up losing more than I was gaining. Define "expensive" – you need 80mil worth of ships + rigs and maybe 10-20mil more worth of mods. You can earn that back in 6-7 hours.

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