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Esu Nahalas The Night Corporation RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:26:00 - [121] Originally by: Mjeh It always did, and they backed down in the sense that this is not a new "problem" but they have stood by their initial statement on the matter until the wall of whines finally got so tall that they caved in and gave the whiners what they wanted. And now the wall of whines is even taller. Ironic. So the question I would like to see addressed is, are suicide gankers latent whiners, and they are finally coming out of the closet?
Captain Porter	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:31:00 - [122] Edited by: Captain Porter on 06/08/2008 17:33:57 Quote: In addition, the highly requested feature of removal of insurance in CONCORD related events will be implemented in the near future. The CONCORD changes and Security penalty will be hitting TQ this fall, with Empyrean Age 1.1. Be safe out there! CCP Fear Look at it this way...this is now true risk vs. reward. Think about it, you can still pop stuff the difference is you will be more selective in what you pop to make it worth it. Some ships carry that can give you over 200M isk (if not all destroyed) and you only have to pay out 60M(Drake fully fitted to tank new Concord) for your ship. You still make 140M.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:38:00 - [123] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 06/08/2008 17:38:38 Originally by: Mjeh Originally by: Space Wanderer Originally by: Mjeh No, this isn't a FOTM-whine. It's a whine about seing CCP backing down on their principles, core principles that made EVE stand out from the rest of the MMO crowd for some of us So you say, but what's the core principle they have backed down? You can still suicide gank. High sec is still not safe. The only thing I can see is that they have FIXED another core principle of this game, "actions have consequences". It always did, and they backed down in the sense that this is not a new "problem" but they have stood by their initial statement on the matter until the wall of whines finally got so tall that they caved in and gave the whiners what they wanted. You know, I was going to answer to this that although suicide ganking has always been a valid and supported game mechanic, in no place have devs ever stated that their consequences were balanced. I could have pointed out that you might, only might, have mistaken your own opinion as "core principle". I could have told that maybe, only maybe, the nerfs happen when statistics show that some aspect of the game is so unbalanced that everybody and their dog do it. But really, your refusal to even consider even one of those possibilities, and to consider trolls anybody who has a different opinion than yours, qualifies you for only a single reply, your own words: "1/10 for effort. really" What a waste fo electrons...
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:42:00 - [124] Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 06/08/2008 17:42:07 For a bunch of "rough and tumble" pirates you guys sure do whine a lot.
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:42:00 - [125] OMG its finally here I'm so excited. Hello Kitty in space! Basically implemented to protect macro hauling and mining. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Praleon Gallente Eve Liberation Force Liberty.	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:44:00 - [126] J Kunjeh, I thank you for actually reading my post, it is good that at least some people actually read these threads rather than blindly shooting off a stupid comment. To those of you that skipped it, I posted a dual post, fairly long justification for the changes as proposed by CCP. I justified it in terms of simulation (CCP creating an RPG Game World with lifelike rules), Game Balance (In terms of why it is skewed in the risk/reward department to allow suicide ganking against unarmed players), and the Meta Game (why it is intelligent of CCP to listen to players and make these kinds of changes). If you're short on time, move right along, but if you're here for a while, why not have a look at my posts above before you continue your "omg I can't gank unarmed people no mo" whines. Praleon CEO Judgement Klan Corporation
Atlas Oracle Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:48:00 - [127] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 06/08/2008 17:42:07 For a bunch of "rough and tumble" pirates you guys sure do whine a lot. this
DogSlime Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:54:00 - [128] Edited by: DogSlime on 06/08/2008 17:54:21 This whining is unbelievable. Suicide ganking will have consequences... instead of having almost no consequences as it does now... and people are whining like mad, and threatening to quit the game... I never realised how many people were fans of the "free" suicide gank, or how whiney they would be about it being changed. So much for "hardcore"
Pesky LaRue Minmatar L.O.S.T. Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:09:00 - [129] Originally by: DogSlime Edited by: DogSlime on 06/08/2008 17:54:21 This whining is unbelievable. Suicide ganking will have consequences... instead of having almost no consequences as it does now... and people are whining like mad, and threatening to quit the game... I never realised how many people were fans of the "free" suicide gank, or how whiney they would be about it being changed. So much for "hardcore" hardcore is a state of mind. many of these guys think it's hardcore to jump AFK players in crappy ships with no defenses - are you really surprised that they're upset that griefing people just got harder for them? This message came from the Minmatar Messiah, accept no imitations Pesky LaRue, Minmatar Messiah Bringing Salvation To Your System Soon! ++ PRAY FOR PESKY ++
Karlemgne The Black Fleet The Black Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:12:00 - [130] Sorry I couldn't make out what you were saying through all the crying. Were you complaining that it now might actually cost you 30 million isk to try and suicide gank someone? Because if you were, wow. I mean just wow. Who cares? Just be more discrete about the targets you pick. Seriously. -Karlemgne

Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:15:00 - [131] Edited by: Wendat Huron on 06/08/2008 18:15:21 Read it in the wrong tone of whine, nevermind. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:17:00 - [132] Originally by: Karlemgne Sorry I couldn't make out what you were saying through all the crying. Were you complaining that it now might actually cost you 30 million isk to try and suicide gank someone? Because if you were, wow. I mean just wow. Who cares? Just be more discrete about the targets you pick. Seriously. I hereby order you to cease and desist being reasonable. Such behaviour is utterly unacceptable here and totally spoils the fun for the rest of us. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:18:00 - [133] Originally by: Slaver Hatastus Originally by: Mjeh Originally by: Slaver Hatastus Originally by: Mjeh Originally by: Tatsujin Koufu I dont see whats changed, you can still kill the chumps afking through highsec space with a hold full of isk goodness. They're lowering concord response times, so while you can still kill chumps it will be much harder now. How much harder we don't know yet. hard enough for it to be a challenge instead of relatively easy money, you mean? Ignoring the point at the core of this so blatantly that I don't know why I grace your post with a reply... Probably hard enough that you can't do it solo any more, but this remains to be seen. Keep in mind what type of targets we're talking about here. For suicide ganks we're mostly talking about tech I haulers _AUTOPILOTING_ towards a gate. Are you telling me these targets should be a challenge? i don't know why you "graced" me with a reply, you didn't say anything new and it was basically for your own ego. that said - i always hesitate to bring RL into EVE but think about it, you're talkinga bout the equivalent of mugging old ladies in the street - no challenge, pretty lame, and of variable rewards. the police take notice of this behaviour and increase police patrols and arm them better so that they can stop this behaviour. the mugger sees her as weak, slow, stupid for doing what she's doing and hey, the mugger wants to take her stuff so why shouldn't he? the granny just wants to get home with her shopping in one piece, it's why she's taking the longer route, the route through the brighter streets with more people so she can feel safe. but you want it to remain easier for you? boo frigging hoo Ban Analagy, Old ladies dont carry billions.
Naga Elohim	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:31:00 - [134] i don't see what the hubub is. CCP is doing the right thing here. They arent making it impossible to suicide gank. Just a bit harder. I've been ganked once in a 0.5 system, and ive done my fair share of ganking. in fact after i got ganked i thought it was such a good idea to do so myself. I took apples and made apple pie. And i can't lie it's very rewarding. However, the there are more risks involved now (or when the patch comes out) for suicide gankers. Althought it might not be as easy anymore, it could still be done to an effective degree. CONCORD will own you faster and you will take a bigger sec status hit. Also, I think they are making it so its harder to get your sec status back up. So some of you thinking it will be easy to circumvent this change will be quite surprised (angry). If you haul 3 bil in mods and bpos, dont autopilot...EVER! It's common sense. But i do agree with the proposed changes from CCP. In fact it should have been done long time ago. Also, whiners pay thier fees to play like anyone else and are, infact, intitled to whine as much as they want. I just think whining and trolling are a waste of time, constructive criticism and intelligent suggestions add to the game and enhance it... Which is what CCP is doing now....enhancing the game. [please do continue with the nerdrage-stfu-noob flaming. Im bored at work and its very entertaining]
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:33:00 - [135] What part of recyclable alts dont you understand when you talk about penalties being effective? --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
Naga Elohim	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:37:00 - [136] Oh yeah and to those who fly nano ships and suicide gank, you guys got owned this week by CCP. I hope its still as fun for you all. Ive only been playing for a year and 8 months but ive never seen CCP taking this much action on complaints of nano-kamikazi. Good Job CCP!!. Really...Good Job!
Vladimir Ilych Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:39:00 - [137] Might this not be a boon for the suicide gankers? Now the afk pilots who haul hugely valuable kit around high sec will be even less careful perhaps? If the people that use this tactic just pick their targets carefully I bet their will still be money in it.
General Urlana	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:10:00 - [138] I think it's a good change to remove the insurance payout in these cases. Makes it a little more costly to the attacker. But in the end i don't imagine you'll see a big difference but it will possibly tone down some of the more meaningless kills. I've only ever been killed once but i think the guy thought he was in low sec. Popped my retriever in 0.5 space at a belt. Looked away only to look back wondering hey why is my ship moving...hmmm this is gonna hurt pop guy lost a t2 fitted vagabond. Funny enough i looted 10m or so from his wreck afterwards. more than made up for everything. but the point is you can haul stuff around but just don't be careless expecting the game should hold your hand from the bad guys. You will die sometimes but that's the game you signed up to play. If you don't like it i would suggest finding a new game. You still can't afk with expensive items in your badger and expect to survive the trip but at least it will make the attackers pick targets a little more efficiently
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.07 03:04:00 - [139] Originally by: Steve Hawkings The thing is the only people that cried are the stupid ones that lost millions in a gank. Negative.... I have never been suicide ganked and have always thought the mechanics of it were way skewed to the gankers. This change is a long way in coming. Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Trathen Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.07 03:16:00 - [140] Edited by: Trathen on 07/08/2008 03:16:33 Cave in? We are talking about the same team that felt the need to release a "Boost Patch" because their thin skin couldn't handle the nerf whines, right? You see, the real sandbox is designing the game yourself! _

Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.07 03:22:00 - [141] Originally by: Cors Ohnoes, I cannot understand the basic ideas about risk and reward. Fixed. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc. Exxxotic	Posted - 2008.08.07 03:33:00 - [142] i'm not bothered about the actual changes, more annoyed about the fact this has been fine and worked for 5 years now, yet they change it now just for the newer crowd, as the older crowd, who has been here almost the entire of those 5 years i find it annoying they are now saying, well yeah actually you have been paying for a game we have now deemed not correct untill 5 years later? It was fine how it was, ganking in high sec has always happened, just with more player base, more people have posted about it, higher amounts have been lost, and more people have copied. I for one am going to war dec several corps, and i hope others do to, and in retrospect to this change make it actually less safer for people in general :)
Veldya Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.08.07 03:51:00 - [143] Originally by: Mjeh I don't think people fully realize what's at stake here... As the OP title hinted at, this is CCP caving in and going back on one of their core principles, in what seems a desperate measure to keep disgruntled players who were too lazy to play on any other mode than AFK-mode. What dies here isn't suicide ganking, because there will still be ways, what dies here is CCP's integrity and, IMO, much of what was attractive about this game in the first place; the cold, unforgiving atmosphere. I hear a lot of people crying and whining that suicide ganking held no risk and was too easy, but every single one of them failed to even mention that with some very basic measures you can make yourself practically immune to high sec suicide gankage. I won't even begin on some of the other common misconceptions about the ease and profitability of suicide ganking, because I think this point is strong enough in it's own right. If you play smart, you're immune. But people don't want to play smart, they want to play AFK. And CCP now confirmed that their right to play like this weighs more heavily than the integrity of the game, so long as the whiners constitute a bigger mass of paying customers than the ones who prey upon them do. Or maybe just because they whine louder, I can't tell which anymore. Anyway, this is going to fade into the shroud of unrememberance as just another disgruntled whine in just another disgruntled thread, so instead of writing further I'm going to cast my vote the only way it will matter somewhat. My 3 accounts will not be renewed during the next billing period. Enjoy your bearfest, it was fun while it lasted :) Anyone who quits because of recent changes is not the kind of player we want around in EVE. When something seems too good to be true and everyone flocks to it then invariably it is. There is a reason for there being High-Sec space, if CCP wanted just low-sec or just conquerable space then they could have done that. None of the changes will stop people ganking haulers, the risk is now not solely placed on the victim. You need to gank targets of value in high-sec. I want to make sure there is a healthy life for pirates but I think the vast majority of their work should be in low-sec. It is just currently far too easy to grief in high-sec, especially when you have T1 griefers vs T2 victims. It was just not a remotely fair or balanced system. More has to be done though to have more people want to go to low-sec space outside of FW.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.07 03:53:00 - [144] Originally by: Veldya More has to be done though to have more people want to go to low-sec space outside of FW. Well, then low-sec has to pay better. Which it doesn't Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Veldya Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.08.07 04:03:00 - [145] Originally by: Mjeh Originally by: Ardrilian stuff about barges always being volunerable Yes, this is true. I've never killed barges on the "because I can-level", but I suppose Jihadswarm is more difficult to guard against. But even there, there are easy ways to lower the risk substantially. And not surprisingly, the fundament of said ways are always - you guessed it - don't be afk. You are talking about ships which have mining cycles from 3 minutes to 10 minutes and they have in some cases a split second to jump when they are locked onto. It is very unrealistic to expect someone to have that level of awareness for high-sec space. In low-sec or 0.0 you have more notice because you have a lot more time to warp out as soon as a non-friendly enters local, in high-sec there are masses of neutrals in belts and you don't have the same kind of buffer. Mining gankers relied heavily on being wolves in sheeps clothing, there are a lot of noobs salvaging or after the rats themselves in combat ships, it is just not realistic to expect high sec miners to trillions in losses to ships they can't even adequately insure, the advantages were ALL in favor of the ganker.
Trathen Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.07 04:05:00 - [146] I think there is two separate arguments here mashed up in that goddawful slippery-slope-doomsayer thing. -Suicide ganking probably needed a fix. It was way too easy and way too profitable. Was this the way to do it? Who knows but it won't save the true idiots AFK hauling with things ten times the value of an uninsured battleship. -Pulling out the big picture, we can see that the almost-safe hi-sec space is even safer and way too profitable. This is a problem. In strict risk/reward terms, 0 risk should equal 0 reward. After the nerf, the only risk most high-sec players see isn't a loss, just "less gain" (ninja salvaging, can flipping). Wee. This is where everyone says, "But we just mission-run on our own. How does that affect you?" Well, the same reason twinking ruins other games. If I'm scraping around in low-sec and decide to come to empire to replace mods and a ship, guess what other buyers I get to compete with? Mission-runners! That's right, while PvPers were off losing their umpteenth ship, mission-runners were making a crapton more money. Then when I go to buy a mod, oops, they are insanely expensive because mission-runners just made 200 million ISK grinding missions for 2 hours so who cares if they blow it all on a handful of upgrades. They're not going to lose them anyway, right? Granted, its not really bad yet, but it could be. _
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.08.07 04:12:00 - [147] /signed with the OP Disappointment abounds. Click me! You know you want to...
Novemb3r Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.07 04:34:00 - [148] Originally by: Anndarra Winge Originally by: Atlas Oracle the humor element in this is pretty much win... all the hardcore internet tough guys with their "eve is a harsh place" teddy bear and "adapt" mantra, crying about it being more costy to gank carebears. Hmmmm... the taste of Pirate tears. So-so SWEET. But come on guys, I worked out over lunch how me and a dozen friends could make lots of isk suicide ganking with disposable alts. Just takes a little organization and planning. Cost is a week of training to get the alts into half-decent ships and a couple 100k for the ships. Who cares about the security - dispose of the alt while you sweep up the loot. Enjoy your ban for using disposable alts to avoid sec penalties. -
Darth Vaders Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:00:00 - [149] Edited by: Darth Vaders on 07/08/2008 05:00:43 It really annoys me to see people whining on this. Lets face the facts. What was happening before was that some people could form a big big gang of torp ravens with t1 fitting and top insurances and go hit someone that posessed no faction or complex modules just because they could do it with 0 cost. = GRIEFING. Now that no insurance will be paid this can still happen only that this time there will be a big cost for the ganging. Still the gangs can gang people like before only that this time the victim must be in a pimped ship with expencive modules or something that will provide a profit bigger than the gang's loss. So there is still danger out there. You can't go around in a t1 hauler carring a titan bpo. But newbies and the not so rich people can do their trading in relative safety. So quit whinning you know very well that what you were doing before was griefing and exploiting a game mechanic that was designed to reduce the loss of an unfortunate player , not to help the old timers grief the newbies.
JanoMark Smoke n Burn Intrepid Proprietary Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:13:00 - [150] I for one support this change. You don't get money for burning down your own house. Unless your really sneaky and pull it off.



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