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Reasons that killing suicide ganking is bad.

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Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:43:00 - [1] Macros. We all see them, going out to a field filling their cargo and going back to station to drop off their load. 23 hours a day they operate, basically making mining for profit useless. Suicide ganking is the best way to deal with these. This includes fdlkjsf and fkwodoc that mine ice for the purpose of selling it for RMT purposes. AFK miners, not unlike macros, they sit an indy ship somewhere and check back every now and again to target new roids and go AFK. While not as damaging to the mining industry as macros in a hulk, it's still pulling in ore 23 hours a day. Suicide ganking is the best way to deal with these. NPC corp missioners. No chance to get war decced, making assloads of isk and being rewarded for very little risk. Suicide ganking is the best way to deal with these. Now I am all for the no insurance payout to those ships that concord kills, have been for a long time, but I also realize that suicide ganking is a necessary tactic. What bothers me is the change to sec status hits. To me it doesn't make sense to have a bigger decrease than there already is. A good couple hours of ganking and you are -2 easily. I know this because I have a few alts that all I use them for is a hit squad. They need to look at this mechanic a little more closely I believe before they implement it. And I will be suicide ganking ships on the test server to see just how fast over the live rule set you lose sec rating. Also seeing if in fact the concord reaction time is something to worry about.
hall monitor	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:43:00 - [2] No . Pants. Stop whining you're getting pants.
Timeto Die	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:44:00 - [3] They've done what now? ----------------------------------------------- You want soft toilet paper? Go play WoW. Eve is Hotel Bastardo. -----------------------------------------------
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:46:00 - [4] When QQ doesn't work, scare 'em with the macros bogeyman. Saw some guy try to use that one while arguing for a ninja salvage nerf the other day as well. Funny stuff. ___________________________________________
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:47:00 - [5] Yes! Ofcourse! I totally missed that! Suicide ganking was done on macro-miners only! Ohh, man, the times that I we suicide ganked all those macro-miners! And the laughs we had! And how rich we became suicide ganking all those macro-miners! Rolling in dough we were! No, wait! Wait a minute! We never actually suicide ganked those macro-miners at all. They all cloak and dock up the moment we jump into the system. As a matter of fact, this whole line of reasoning is totally untrue. *******s even. A big fat load of tosh in fact! -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:48:00 - [6] Indeed, killing suicide ganking would indeed be bad! Good think it's still possible. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Braaage eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Tarminic Indeed, killing suicide ganking would indeed be bad! Good think it's still possible. QFT Suicide ganking is not dead they just made it a challenge like it should be. It's far too easy to do with sod all consequence. -- POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, Boosters, EA EVE Database, Character Generator & more
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:52:00 - [8] Quote: If you suicide gank any ship that isn't worth more than the ship you're about to lose, you're essentially a barking moron deserving of a painful reminder to play intelligently. What this guy said in another thread. As for Macros they are here to stay (unfortunately) and CCP is and always has been the only real defense against them. This change just got rid of the posers and amateurs and the "casual" lolssgank, that's all.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:59:00 - [9] Luckily for you there are enough macro haulers in low sec, kill them. And the killing macro argument is getting kinda old. Bumping afk miners out of range or just getting a hulk to deplete their roid is much easier. NPC corp people missioning is a problem how?
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:01:00 - [10] This changes nothing until the highsec miners learn to tank You're not afraid of the dark, are you?

Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Soporo Quote: If you suicide gank any ship that isn't worth more than the ship you're about to lose, you're essentially a barking moron deserving of a painful reminder to play intelligently. What this guy said in another thread. As for Macros they are here to stay (unfortunately) and CCP is and always has been the only real defense against them. This change just got rid of the posers and amateurs and the "casual" lolssgank, that's all. There are lots of ships that cost more than a caracal. And there are lots of people that actively hunt macro miners and suicide them every chance they get. And with the increased concord response time it does seem that CCP is trying to get rid of one of the mechanics that I have loved and used since I started playing the game.
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:04:00 - [12] The OP's logic is flawed. You don't avoid fixing a problem because it might make another problem worse. You fix them both. CCP, make it so that you can't fly any T2 ships or anything larger than a Cruiser while you are in a NPC corp. Then if Macroers want to mine in Hulks, they have to be in a war-decable private corp. End of problem.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:04:00 - [13] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 06/08/2008 19:05:53 Originally by: Schalac Macros. We all see them, going out to a field filling their cargo and going back to station to drop off their load. 23 hours a day they operate, basically making mining for profit useless. Suicide ganking is the best way to deal with these. This includes fdlkjsf and fkwodoc that mine ice for the purpose of selling it for RMT purposes. AFK miners, not unlike macros, they sit an indy ship somewhere and check back every now and again to target new roids and go AFK. While not as damaging to the mining industry as macros in a hulk, it's still pulling in ore 23 hours a day. Suicide ganking is the best way to deal with these. NPC corp missioners. No chance to get war decced, making assloads of isk and being rewarded for very little risk. Suicide ganking is the best way to deal with these. Now I am all for the no insurance payout to those ships that concord kills, have been for a long time, but I also realize that suicide ganking is a necessary tactic. What bothers me is the change to sec status hits. To me it doesn't make sense to have a bigger decrease than there already is. A good couple hours of ganking and you are -2 easily. I know this because I have a few alts that all I use them for is a hit squad. They need to look at this mechanic a little more closely I believe before they implement it. And I will be suicide ganking ships on the test server to see just how fast over the live rule set you lose sec rating. Also seeing if in fact the concord reaction time is something to worry about. 1) You can petition macros and get them banned, which is better than suiciding them. 2) AFK indies don't really do much. 3) I agree with the NPC corp missioners, but I think that would be better solved with a nerf to hisec missioning than suicide ganking. Quote: CCP, make it so that you can't fly any T2 ships or anything larger than a Cruiser while you are in a NPC corp. I'd rather just split up the NPC corps. You can still be in an NPC corp, but not the noobcorp, and fly larger ships...but the NPC corp can be wardecced.
Joey Meow	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:06:00 - [14] What do you mean by "killing suicide ganking?" I have been gone for the last day or so and something else is getting nerfed? WTF? Some more information please.... Unless this is just baseless ranting and just confusing us good forum whoring people.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:07:00 - [15] so... just cause of illegitimacy accounts.... who gets petitioned and GM investigate them... you gonna make the game lopesided towards gankers? (hell, even an industrial with 20+ mill worth of stuff is worth ganking ...all it takes is a destoryer.....and sec status gain is easy if you got a jump clone to 0.0 pie stations...) nice try... but yeah, farmer/macros, you petition them. Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:08:00 - [16] Originally by: Furb Killer Luckily for you there are enough macro haulers in low sec, kill them. And the killing macro argument is getting kinda old. Bumping afk miners out of range or just getting a hulk to deplete their roid is much easier. NPC corp people missioning is a problem how? The macro argument is getting old because CCP never does anything about it. Killing them and costing them isk is the best way to deal with them. Hulks are un-insurable and if you kill enough of their hulks they start to hurt. Bumping is nothing. As soon as they realize they have been bumped they are right back at it. NPC corp missioners can do basically what ever they want and you can't kill them legally. Some times people deserve to die and for these people suicidal caracals are the best way to deal with them.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:09:00 - [17] Originally by: Joey Meow What do you mean by "killing suicide ganking?" I have been gone for the last day or so and something else is getting nerfed? WTF? Some more information please.... Unless this is just baseless ranting and just confusing us good forum whoring people. they are just nerfing insurance for concord kills... just raises the bar for ganking... so that now you cant gank everybody, their mother, their pets, the fleas on their pets.... you can still gank people... just that is gonna cost ya (unless you found a jucy target) instead of insurance paying for all your cost and more.. Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Schalac Hulks are un-insurable and if you kill enough of their hulks they start to hurt. ... and now Suicide Ganking is un-insurable and if suicide gankers do it enough they start to hurt.
Roku Kotaki Caldari Celestial Command Operations	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:13:00 - [19] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny This changes nothing until the highsec miners learn to tank Would you kindly give me advice on how to tank a Retriever. The last I checked, a Retriever has one mid and two low slots, so how do you propose to tank that? Proof that you can actually tank a mining barge or STFU.
Joey Meow	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Mika Meroko Originally by: Joey Meow What do you mean by "killing suicide ganking?" I have been gone for the last day or so and something else is getting nerfed? WTF? Some more information please.... Unless this is just baseless ranting and just confusing us good forum whoring people. they are just nerfing insurance for concord kills... just raises the bar for ganking... so that now you cant gank everybody, their mother, their pets, the fleas on their pets.... you can still gank people... just that is gonna cost ya (unless you found a jucy target) instead of insurance paying for all your cost and more.. Ok that makes sense to me. Removing Insurance on Suiciding should have been done ages ago, at least now some thought will go into killing people in Empire who are not at war.

Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:16:00 - [21] Originally by: Mika Meroko Originally by: Joey Meow What do you mean by "killing suicide ganking?" I have been gone for the last day or so and something else is getting nerfed? WTF? Some more information please.... Unless this is just baseless ranting and just confusing us good forum whoring people. they are just nerfing insurance for concord kills... just raises the bar for ganking... so that now you cant gank everybody, their mother, their pets, the fleas on their pets.... you can still gank people... just that is gonna cost ya (unless you found a jucy target) instead of insurance paying for all your cost and more.. Except the fact that rocket kestrels can still be used for minimal isk loss, if you have enough of them. What I am more concerned with is the upped concord response time and higher sec hits for it. Really do you believe that this is going to bring more people into a game that is already past the 5 year mark? No, it's just making one of the best free form PvP MMOs out there more restrictive.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Schalac Originally by: Furb Killer Luckily for you there are enough macro haulers in low sec, kill them. And the killing macro argument is getting kinda old. Bumping afk miners out of range or just getting a hulk to deplete their roid is much easier. NPC corp people missioning is a problem how? The macro argument is getting old because CCP never does anything about it. Killing them and costing them isk is the best way to deal with them. Hulks are un-insurable and if you kill enough of their hulks they start to hurt. Bumping is nothing. As soon as they realize they have been bumped they are right back at it. NPC corp missioners can do basically what ever they want and you can't kill them legally. Some times people deserve to die and for these people suicidal caracals are the best way to deal with them. again... CCP does do things about it... they just dont tell people.. and that quite frankly, they dont need to tell you. and no, an industrial cost nothing.... and for people who steal accounts/hacks to take stuff... you arent gonna even put a dent into their operations.... and hulks are cheap now =P besides, most farmer's income is 0.0 ravens cloaking ratting.... you arent gonna dent their operation much by going after highsec ships.... is pocket money to them.... compare to what the farmers are making in 0.0. Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:21:00 - [23] Edited by: Mika Meroko on 06/08/2008 19:23:23 Originally by: Schalac Originally by: Mika Meroko Originally by: Joey Meow What do you mean by "killing suicide ganking?" I have been gone for the last day or so and something else is getting nerfed? WTF? Some more information please.... Unless this is just baseless ranting and just confusing us good forum whoring people. they are just nerfing insurance for concord kills... just raises the bar for ganking... so that now you cant gank everybody, their mother, their pets, the fleas on their pets.... you can still gank people... just that is gonna cost ya (unless you found a jucy target) instead of insurance paying for all your cost and more.. Except the fact that rocket kestrels can still be used for minimal isk loss, if you have enough of them. What I am more concerned with is the upped concord response time and higher sec hits for it. Really do you believe that this is going to bring more people into a game that is already past the 5 year mark? No, it's just making one of the best free form PvP MMOs out there more restrictive. yes, I honestly believe that is gonna bring more people in... hell, we are STILL growing... a month or so again (when AOC is released) a dev said that we are the 3rd biggest paid mmo out there.... and still growing.... and if you want to see what happens to true pvp mmos .... look at pirates of the burning seas... it just got its server merge cause the red circles are EVERYWHERE =P ... every newb and everyone got ganked.... Eve is fine, you can still gank people, this change only raise the bar... thats all. and if you think Eve is dying cause of this.... please... stop posting now.... edit: not to be mean, but .... we are talking about high sec, is not completely safe.. but at this point in time... hell, I made about 500 mill in the last 2 weeks ganking ships with dessies on my pie... which I spend 1 day raising sec status back to positive for... is too lopsided to the ganker, which is the minority tbh... even I feel guilty that a failed gank actually give me profit =P Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:24:00 - [24] But in 0.0 there is no need for a suicide squad because if you can catch them they are fair game. I would place money on the fact that high sec macks and hulks ice mining 23 hours a day probably pull in about the same as 0.0 ratters would. And the high sec miners have a far greater chance that their ship is going to last for as long as needed.
Shy Dragoon	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:27:00 - [25] hm... looks like the suicide gankers are the real carebears of eve. from no risk vs a lot of reward to some risk vs a lot of reward and they are crying all over the forums.
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Straight Chillen the really problem with killing suicide ganking, is that it will destroy the industrial aspect of this game. You think the undercutting is cut-throat right now? just wait untill every producer can safely move all of his shit around, never leaving highsec, and never worrying about having to loose his shit. Mineral prices will be the first to plummet, from there mods and ship prices. Inflation will skyrocket and the value of isk will plummet. ... and the moon will be as sackcloth and the sky as a sea of blood. If suicide ganking even accounts for 10% of the economy I'd be bloody amazed. ___________________________________________
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:35:00 - [27] Originally by: Straight Chillen Originally by: Trojanman190 I see this as a suicide ganking boost. When carebears think they are safe they carry more shit in their cargo hold... increasing the consequences means less people will suicide gank meaning more people think they are safe meaning more expensive cargo afked around in turn resulting in more shit being dropped from the target the ganker does decide to asplode. The loss of insurance makes sense and so does the sec. None of it matters. You will still make a killing off of morons who think they are safe. qft. i bet hauling trips get longer, as people are gonna be bumping industrials around to keep em from jumping while they do the math to see if they're worth ganking or not. .... errrr, the professionals already got the item's cost down... takes 30 seconds to assess it =P hell, I know I can remember all the prices of T2 items..(since I sell them too..) is not that hard... Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.08.06 19:44:00 - [28] Originally by: Roku Kotaki Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny This changes nothing until the highsec miners learn to tank Would you kindly give me advice on how to tank a Retriever. The last I checked, a Retriever has one mid and two low slots, so how do you propose to tank that? Proof that you can actually tank a mining barge or STFU. You can fully insure a Retriever so as long as you don't have some exotic mod on it then getting suicide ganked will hurt you very little. Insurance is your Retrievers tank. As far as Hulks go you can fit one like this and tank even a full t2 fit gank mega with 5 ogre II for much longer than it takes for Concord to arrive even in a .5 system to blast them. Buffer Tank Hulk: Highs> 3x Strip Miner I Meds> 3x Invul Field II 1x Regolith Medium Shield Extender (or a II if you have max shield fitting skills and the 3% shield powergrid reduction hardwireing) Lows> 1x PDS II 1x MAPC Rigs 2x Core Defense Field Extender I Mines at about 80% of the yield of a T2 Strip and MLU II fitted Hulk but will lulz at anything less than a BS gank to take you out in the time it takes Concord to respond. Its also worthless as a 'for profit' gank even with platinum insured ships. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:33:00 - [29] Using one flawed game mechanic to argue that another flawed game mechanic should stay doesn't work that well..... Address first one, then the other..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:02:00 - [30] Originally by: Kerfira Using one flawed game mechanic to argue that another flawed game mechanic should stay doesn't work that well..... Address first one, then the other..... There is nothing flawed about suicide gank minus the insurance pay out. Remove it, problem solved. I am for no insurance of Concorded ships. What I am against is faster Concord spawns and the possible greater sec hits for doing so. This is yet another step towards a comic I saw in an old Computer Gaming World. My EVE, the reason I started playing and kept coming back was because you can kill anyone, anywhere, for what ever reason your heart desired. More and more you buff up safe zones, the more that vision of the game I like dissipates. For years I have believed that EVE was a place where I can immerse myself in the vast virgin territories of EVE where power is the Holy Grail and the ultimate aphrodisiac. Where I could conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin. The galaxy is yours to control if you have the brains, strength, and cunning to succeed. If that last paragraph sounds like a marketing guy wrote it, it probably was. Because those are the words that I bought the game for and they come from the box that EVE was sold in back in 2003-early 2004. More and more though it's getting further from those words.

Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:09:00 - [31] The logic in the OP is totally insane... /lock Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:14:00 - [32] Macro miners and AFK miners can just "prime" concord by plinking their own ships every 15mins with disposable alts. Especially for macroers, who cares if they break one more rule. Furthermore, CCP probably couldn't verify that you'd been priming concord. Seriously with mining returns as terrible as they are I doubt people macromine at all. The only people who AFK mine mine ice. While this is "damaging" to ice miners, the solution is simple - mine minerals. Also, you can easily compensate for the sec hit by just getting more alts and only suicide ganking with your main when absolutely necessary.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:17:00 - [33] Edited by: Schalac on 07/08/2008 05:22:57 Originally by: Terminus adacai The logic in the OP is totally insane... /lock So you like macros coming into your space and dumping the market with material lowering prices? You like NPC corp players totally avoiding PvP because you can't wardec them. You like people getting all their riches and abilities that ISK brings with no risk? I don't. I've even sponsored runs of suicide players to help remove these people from our space. Perfectly fitted kessis and caracals I gave away, just so that they would be slammed into people like this that I describe. No my logic is perfectly sane, you are the one that doesn't see clearly.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:21:00 - [34] Originally by: Hieronimus Rex Also, you can easily compensate for the sec hit by just getting more alts and only suicide ganking with your main when absolutely necessary. No, see this is where you fail. I suicide gank with the same alts because recycling alts is against the ToS. Also I want people to see my name and know what's coming. I have no reason to hide. They are the ones that recycle and cheat, I am here to put an end to that. If you make it harder for me to do that then they win. And no one wants them to win, unless you are one.
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:28:00 - [35] Originally by: Schalac Edited by: Schalac on 07/08/2008 05:22:57 Originally by: Terminus adacai The logic in the OP is totally insane... /lock So you like macros coming into your space and dumping the market with material lowering prices? You like NPC corp players totally avoiding PvP because you can't wardec them. You like people getting all their riches and abilities that ISK brings with no risk? I don't. I've even sponsored runs of suicide players to help remove these people from our space. Perfectly fitted kessis and caracals I gave away, just so that they would be slammed into people like this that I describe. No my logic is perfectly sane, you are the one that doesn't see clearly. No, I do not like any of the things you mentioned. Suicide ganking is NOT the answer to macro's, as it is also used with relative ease against haulers that are not macros. I applaud this new proposed change and I do not AFK AP nor have I ever been suicide ganked. Ganking is not being removed, simply balanced. Anyone that argues otherwise, may have some alts with security issues. :) Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 05:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Terminus adacai Originally by: Schalac Edited by: Schalac on 07/08/2008 05:22:57 Originally by: Terminus adacai The logic in the OP is totally insane... /lock So you like macros coming into your space and dumping the market with material lowering prices? You like NPC corp players totally avoiding PvP because you can't wardec them. You like people getting all their riches and abilities that ISK brings with no risk? I don't. I've even sponsored runs of suicide players to help remove these people from our space. Perfectly fitted kessis and caracals I gave away, just so that they would be slammed into people like this that I describe. No my logic is perfectly sane, you are the one that doesn't see clearly. No, I do not like any of the things you mentioned. Suicide ganking is NOT the answer to macro's, as it is also used with relative ease against haulers that are not macros. I applaud this new proposed change and I do not AFK AP nor have I ever been suicide ganked. Ganking is not being removed, simply balanced. Anyone that argues otherwise, may have some alts with security issues. :) So please tell me, if killing their hulks and macks enough times to cost them greater isk than they can make is not the answer, then what is? And DO NOT say petition it. Because if you petition it they will still be around for weeks possibly months after you petition it supplying the market with ill gotten ores and ice. Which is very bad for you if you happen to actually be a real player that is in that trade. Killing them is the only logical thing to do because not only will they eventually get banned, but they won't do as much damage as they possibly could to the market while they are still around. EVE was supposed to be about policing your own. Not a WOW-like clone where we say hey, he's an ISK seller lets petition him and then move on. This is what people fail to realize. This is the reason suicide ganking isn't just completely wiped from the game. Slowly though you people are crying more and more and sure enough CCP is listening to you fools. Changing things that only need to be slightly adjusted into full out nerfs. Just look at some of the recent changes. It's all heavy fisted nerf hammers. While I agree that the nano nerf was needed I do also agree that it was very heavy fisted. While I agree that concord should not provide insurance to concorded ships, it's heavy fisted. Hell, my buddy just got ganked in a freighter not long ago. Did I feel sorry for him for losing 6 bil worth of stuff. YES. At the same time though all I thought of next was maybe he should of had more logistics with him. EVE/CCP provide us the space. What we do with it should be up to us. One or two more logi ships repping him could of possibly saved 6 billion isk worth of PoS fuels. He chose to do without and someone else got lucky on his decision. That is EVE. Do I whine and complain when I lose, no because every time I log in I expect to lose. Hell if anything it makes winning so much more enjoyable.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.07 06:15:00 - [37] I can't see any reasons why the things the op descibed are bad for eve. Macros provide Eve with cheap minerals. Like it or not, it is a fact and I would like to see who starts whining fist if suddenly the BS prices will double. Besides, since macro running is against the eula you can always petition them Afk miners in industrials. That the op mentions them shows that he has absolutely no clue about mining. Their contribution to the mineral market is zero. Mission running while being in npc corp. How is that hurting Eve? Actually Eve benefits from this because those people have isk which they can (and do) spend on nice shiny things. The only thing I can see from the op is a whine that he cannot any longer kill defenceless miners in 50+ milion isk ships with his almost free caracal. But it was never meant to be this way. Go, try some real pvp instead!
Zun Da Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.08.07 06:19:00 - [38] Originally by: Schalac My EVE, the reason I started playing and kept coming back was because you can kill anyone, anywhere, for what ever reason your heart desired. And that is changed how? You still will be able to kill everyone, everywhere and for whatever reason you have.
Slayton Ford STK Scientific	Posted - 2008.08.07 06:44:00 - [39] you people are acting like suicide ganking is gone completly w/ the change. Its not. Whats going to happen is suicide ganking will only happen on the haulers that have enough cargo to cover the entire ship+fitting cost rather then just the fitting cost. --------------- This sig has been censored in fear of recieving the ban hammer...
Neesa Corrinne Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.08.07 07:29:00 - [40] Anyone who thinks that suicide ganking is easy has only been on the receiving end of one. When you're the person that alt tabs back over from the ** you were browsing to see your itty V with a billion ISK worth of loot losing shields at a rapid rate, then I can see where you would think that it's too easy to do. In fact, it's a long, boring and drawn out process that requires a lot of planning and perfect execution to pull off. Making it harder won't stop it, and it won't stop the whine threads. If CCP is making it harder in order to get rid of the "sum jerkhole gankdeded mah shipzorz!" threads, then they have been using the wrong crystal ball to predict the future. The Carebears who want empire to be 100% perfectly safe (I mean like WoW has perfect safe zones so why doesn't EVE?!? hurr hurr hurr) will never** stop whining on the boards until you completely cave in and nerf it all together.

TheStarman	Posted - 2008.08.07 08:08:00 - [41] Originally by: Kahega Amielden 1) You can petition macros and get them banned, which is better than suiciding them.. Hi, Thank you for reporting this. I will investigate the issue and take the appropriate action. Best regards, RANDOM GM WHO WILL DO NOTHING EVE Online Customer Support
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.07 08:10:00 - [42] OOOO Watch out! GANKING is the only way Macros can be fought! They'll be rife! You know that complaining about this technically says "I WANT MY SHIPS TO COST 3x AS MUCH OR IM LEAVING, 300M FOR AN APOC NOW" Aint shit wrong with macros cept the fact everythings a lot cheaper. Woot.
TheStarman	Posted - 2008.08.07 08:13:00 - [43] Yes it is. Prove to me otherwise. I wouldn't care what the price on the market would be because the legitimate miners in my corp could build the ships for me. Legitimate players. Dont you have a level 4 mission to afk or something?
Ulcha Ghanis	Posted - 2008.08.07 08:44:00 - [44] suicide gank, my thoughts (for what its worth..) put simply, the whole theory of it sucks. sucide gank = loose ship to gain nice loots from poor suck that you just wtfpwnd. that 'poor suck' could well be someone like me, i spend a good 50 mins to 3 hours running a good L4, salvage it and think "yay mah wallet is going to get bigger!" but on the way back to sell off my newly aquired loot i get ganked... so my hours or work all blown the hell up in like 2 mins of utter hair-loss-inducing 'why me' suicide gank. Now some will say ok, so whats wrong with that, -It isnt fair.. i spend A LOOOONG time earning my isk.. why should my hours of game time be all for nought if i get chosen as a gank target? and some will say; Eve isnt supposed to be completely 'Fair' -Ok but why should those that use a suicide gank gain more isk (for their game time) than the poor sucks they Asplode? surely there should be the same level of 'game commitment' for all.. and to address another point that i've seen raised.. yes i run L4's in highsec... for the exact same reasons as i state above, L4's are time consuming and a little dull at times, why should we (the carebears) loose out on our work? all we wanna do is zoom about in our funky space ships and shoot at NPC's. I wanted to make a lengthier post and try to explain myself more, but i am currently running a L4, in highsec.
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.07 09:09:00 - [45] Originally by: TheStarman Dont you have a level 4 mission to afk or something? Oh yeah, Thanks for reminding me. More risk free isk! Good times.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:29:00 - [46] Originally by: Gnulpie I can't see any reasons why the things the op descibed are bad for eve. Macros provide Eve with cheap minerals. Like it or not, it is a fact and I would like to see who starts whining fist if suddenly the BS prices will double. Besides, since macro running is against the eula you can always petition them Afk miners in industrials. That the op mentions them shows that he has absolutely no clue about mining. Their contribution to the mineral market is zero. Mission running while being in npc corp. How is that hurting Eve? Actually Eve benefits from this because those people have isk which they can (and do) spend on nice shiny things. The only thing I can see from the op is a whine that he cannot any longer kill defenceless miners in 50+ milion isk ships with his almost free caracal. But it was never meant to be this way. Go, try some real pvp instead! OK, lets start with the obvious first. You have a BPO that is worked way past perfect, many older players have just such a BPO. Now you also have these macros out there selling minerals at cut-throat prices letting people with less than perfect BPOS produce ships and lower the price of them dramatically. This is where industrialists suffer. Macro miners and AFK hauler miners all add up in this equation to bringing down your personal profits when you play it straight. Lets take this a step further, suppose one of them has an over perfect BPO and now they are using all these extra minerals to produce ships at a much lower than cost BS. While this might be great for you macro using mission runners it defies all of EVEs market principals. The other point you bring up is mission runners. Have you ever ran level 4 missions for a week straight and then repossessed all the crap drops that you get from them? Let me explain this to you slowly so you know exactly what I am talking about. Now in a weeks time if I play 4-5 hours a day and do nothing but mission ***** level 4 missions I can get exactly enough minerals to make 4 ravens and 11-13 scorpions depending on how many rogue drone missions I receive. This is all without perfect refine. With perfect refine I could probably make another scorpion. This doesn't even count how much money I get from salvaging the wrecks that there are. You know what I really don't care, I'm just trying to show the rest of the playerbase how it really is. If you want EVE to be another WOW, NOW WITH SPACESHIPS, fine. I will still be here though ganking your hulks, your faction fit ravens and your empty freighters. Because honestly, I do kill people for the lulz. I love to just see things blow up. I have the means to make more isk and I will use it just to see you go BOOM.
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:43:00 - [47] Originally by: Ulcha Ghanis suicide gank, my thoughts (for what its worth..) put simply, the whole theory of it sucks. sucide gank = loose ship to gain nice loots from poor suck that you just wtfpwnd. that 'poor suck' could well be someone like me, i spend a good 50 mins to 3 hours running a good L4, salvage it and think "yay mah wallet is going to get bigger!" but on the way back to sell off my newly aquired loot i get ganked... so my hours or work all blown the hell up in like 2 mins of utter hair-loss-inducing 'why me' suicide gank. Now some will say ok, so whats wrong with that, -It isnt fair.. i spend A LOOOONG time earning my isk.. why should my hours of game time be all for nought if i get chosen as a gank target? and some will say; Eve isnt supposed to be completely 'Fair' -Ok but why should those that use a suicide gank gain more isk (for their game time) than the poor sucks they Asplode? surely there should be the same level of 'game commitment' for all.. and to address another point that i've seen raised.. yes i run L4's in highsec... for the exact same reasons as i state above, L4's are time consuming and a little dull at times, why should we (the carebears) loose out on our work? all we wanna do is zoom about in our funky space ships and shoot at NPC's. I wanted to make a lengthier post and try to explain myself more, but i am currently running a L4, in highsec. Maybe you could join a player corp that will do all the behind the scenes things, and even possibly lend to your DPS in the mission. I'm sorry but if it takes you over 50 mins to run any Lv.4 mission you fail at doing it. With me playing 2 characters and my buddy coming along for the ride the most any level 4 mission has taken me is 40 mins. And that is with salvaging and looting all wrecks. On a multi stage mission.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:45:00 - [48] Originally by: Princess Jodi The OP's logic is flawed. You don't avoid fixing a problem because it might make another problem worse. You fix them both. CCP, make it so that you can't fly any T2 ships or anything larger than a Cruiser while you are in a NPC corp. Then if Macroers want to mine in Hulks, they have to be in a war-decable private corp. End of problem. This tbh. In fact simpler yet: while in a starter corp you cant fly any ship that requires an activated account to train. So frigates, shuttles and noobships only. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ioci Gallente Ioci Exploration	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:49:00 - [49] It is kind of interesting. Nobody flies Battleships in 0.0 PvP because they are instant death. Everyone flies Battleship in high sec PvP because it's instant death but you might get a pay day killing haulers. Low sec, they tank sentries and kill haulers. Anything else, they dock up. The mighty Battleship. Hualer killer and Instant death. Can I have a Submarine?
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:52:00 - [50] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Anyone who thinks that suicide ganking is easy has only been on the receiving end of one. When you're the person that alt tabs back over from the ** you were browsing to see your itty V with a billion ISK worth of loot losing shields at a rapid rate, then I can see where you would think that it's too easy to do. In fact, it's a long, boring and drawn out process that requires a lot of planning and perfect execution to pull off. Making it harder won't stop it, and it won't stop the whine threads. If CCP is making it harder in order to get rid of the "sum jerkhole gankdeded mah shipzorz!" threads, then they have been using the wrong crystal ball to predict the future. The Carebears who want empire to be 100% perfectly safe (I mean like WoW has perfect safe zones so why doesn't EVE?!? hurr hurr hurr) will never** stop whining on the boards until you completely cave in and nerf it all together. Proven correct. In fact the more safety they get, the more they whine for the remaining margin of danger to be removed. Luckily, they now have CCP Fear who has publically stated that wardecs are "licensed griefing": in other words that non-consensual PvP is to be removed from empire. And you know what? I don't even care about that any more. If CCP and the empire players want to turn empire into fluffy unicorns and fairies then they can. Go for it - I don't give a crap any more, although I'll laugh and laugh when they start complaining it's boring and leave. But for the love of god if people are going to be perfectly safe in Empire, don't let them accumulate vast fortunes with which they can distort the market and ruin lo-sec/0.0. What's the point in spending hours in an alliance op to take down enemy towers or destroy their ships if they can just replace them the next day with unlimited funds from their untouchable hi-sec alts? Or use those funds to wreck your market? Or hire unlimited numbers of mercenaries? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:55:00 - [51] Originally by: Ulcha Ghanis suicide gank, my thoughts (for what its worth..) put simply, the whole theory of it sucks. sucide gank = loose ship to gain nice loots from poor suck that you just wtfpwnd. that 'poor suck' could well be someone like me, i spend a good 50 mins to 3 hours running a good L4, salvage it and think "yay mah wallet is going to get bigger!" but on the way back to sell off my newly aquired loot i get ganked... so my hours or work all blown the hell up in like 2 mins of utter hair-loss-inducing 'why me' suicide gank. Now some will say ok, so whats wrong with that, -It isnt fair.. i spend A LOOOONG time earning my isk.. why should my hours of game time be all for nought if i get chosen as a gank target? and some will say; Eve isnt supposed to be completely 'Fair' -Ok but why should those that use a suicide gank gain more isk (for their game time) than the poor sucks they Asplode? surely there should be the same level of 'game commitment' for all.. and to address another point that i've seen raised.. yes i run L4's in highsec... for the exact same reasons as i state above, L4's are time consuming and a little dull at times, why should we (the carebears) loose out on our work? all we wanna do is zoom about in our funky space ships and shoot at NPC's. I wanted to make a lengthier post and try to explain myself more, but i am currently running a L4, in highsec. In other words, it's "not fair" that you have to be careful and alert, not AFK autopilot, and fit your ships correctly? Doing which will reduce your chances of your hauler being ganked to almost nothing. EvE combat isn't balanced on how "fair" it is, or how much time you spent fitting or filling your ship; it's balanced on skill, tactics and opportunity. To repeat an oft-quoted EvE proverb: if you find yourself in a fair fight, something went wrong. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ioci Gallente Ioci Exploration	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:56:00 - [52] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Anyone who thinks that suicide ganking is easy has only been on the receiving end of one. When you're the person that alt tabs back over from the ** you were browsing to see your itty V with a billion ISK worth of loot losing shields at a rapid rate, then I can see where you would think that it's too easy to do. In fact, it's a long, boring and drawn out process that requires a lot of planning and perfect execution to pull off. Making it harder won't stop it, and it won't stop the whine threads. If CCP is making it harder in order to get rid of the "sum jerkhole gankdeded mah shipzorz!" threads, then they have been using the wrong crystal ball to predict the future. The Carebears who want empire to be 100% perfectly safe (I mean like WoW has perfect safe zones so why doesn't EVE?!? hurr hurr hurr) will never** stop whining on the boards until you completely cave in and nerf it all together. Proven correct. In fact the more safety they get, the more they whine for the remaining margin of danger to be removed. Luckily, they now have CCP Fear who has publically stated that wardecs are "licensed griefing": in other words that non-consensual PvP is to be removed from empire. And you know what? I don't even care about that any more. If CCP and the empire players want to turn empire into fluffy unicorns and fairies then they can. Go for it - I don't give a crap any more, although I'll laugh and laugh when they start complaining it's boring and leave. But for the love of god if people are going to be perfectly safe in Empire, don't let them accumulate vast fortunes with which they can distort the market and ruin lo-sec/0.0. What's the point in spending hours in an alliance op to take down enemy towers or destroy their ships if they can just replace them the next day with unlimited funds from their untouchable hi-sec alts? Or use those funds to wreck your market? Or hire unlimited numbers of mercenaries? For what it's worth, Exceed is a respected 0.0 name. You are red to me but respected. What the guys in high sec think of you or me? Why do I care?
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:58:00 - [53] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Roku Kotaki Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny This changes nothing until the highsec miners learn to tank Would you kindly give me advice on how to tank a Retriever. The last I checked, a Retriever has one mid and two low slots, so how do you propose to tank that? Proof that you can actually tank a mining barge or STFU. You can fully insure a Retriever so as long as you don't have some exotic mod on it then getting suicide ganked will hurt you very little. Insurance is your Retrievers tank. As far as Hulks go you can fit one like this and tank even a full t2 fit gank mega with 5 ogre II for much longer than it takes for Concord to arrive even in a .5 system to blast them. Buffer Tank Hulk: Highs> 3x Strip Miner I Meds> 3x Invul Field II 1x Regolith Medium Shield Extender (or a II if you have max shield fitting skills and the 3% shield powergrid reduction hardwireing) Lows> 1x PDS II 1x MAPC Rigs 2x Core Defense Field Extender I Mines at about 80% of the yield of a T2 Strip and MLU II fitted Hulk but will lulz at anything less than a BS gank to take you out in the time it takes Concord to respond. Its also worthless as a 'for profit' gank even with platinum insured ships. Suggesting that AFK miners should have to spend ISK on their fittings and accept a slightly lower yield puts you on a moral level with serial killers tbqh. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.07 12:05:00 - [54] Originally by: Malcanis Suggesting that AFK miners should have to spend ISK on their fittings and accept a slightly lower yield puts you on a moral level with serial killers tbqh. Agreed. That's almost as sickeningly low as suggesting that mission runners have to accept a 2% reduction in mission speed just to make sure no-one takes their precious lewt. Horrid, I tells ya!
Schalac Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves	Posted - 2008.08.07 12:28:00 - [55] Edited by: Schalac on 07/08/2008 12:32:59 You know, the more I keep this topic alive the more I see all of the factions come out and protest their disgust for this change. The thing that strikes me the most though is the fact that no one has attacked my posts more than once and proved me wrong twice. I lay myself out there and people respond, I give a rebuttal and there is never a follow up. I do believe that after 15 years of internet posting failures I scored a win with this thread. Thank you, thank you... no really, please stop clapping EDIT: And not only did I score a slight win in my internet infamy. I also spawned at least 2 threads to steal my title, and 3-4 more to follow in my footsteps. I think I'll drink a beer to that. Cheers mate.


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