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Efficiency, CSM and CCP.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.14 09:49:00 - [1] I'm personally a big fan of EVETV's coverage of the alliance tournament. It's a great event and does for great socialization inside the community. People have asked me several times "What is happening to the alliance tournament?", but the answer always is "I don't know.". I always wanted to raise it for the CSM, but I have held off due to a simple thing: It's a waste of CSM's time. The recent dev-blog, wanting to remove the alliance tournament forum, has created tons of speculation. No CCP answer though. So I just commented on a well-raised issue over at the CSM forum, about the alliance tournament. Now comes the emo-part of my post, and I shall make it short: CCP, if you want CSM to work, don't just sit back and NOT answer any community issues based on your own initiative(They do answer SOME things, but they also seem blissfully ignorant in most cases). I guess CSM will raise about certain things, if you guys don't take initiative to answer the community. But in that case, large changes will need to be done to the CSM for us to even matter in these cases. </emo> tl;dr: CCP needs not to rely on CSM for asking questions. They need to listen to the community on large. Anything else is a waste of everybody's time.
fuze Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.14 11:37:00 - [2] Did you just say CSM is a waste of time? I do have to disagree. But I share the concern of CCP involvement with the Eve community at large. Then again it's rather hard to determine a certain amount of involvement which is seen sufficient by all. And lets not forget listening to adolescent whining all day isn't that enjoyable. Pherhaps CCP could address the current concerns about lag, nano nerf,ui upgrade and upcoming ambulation a bit more. That most certainly would help a bit.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.08.14 11:46:00 - [3] I haven't kept a close eye on the CSM, but I always thought you guys are the link to public, you ask the questions, filter out the "FIRST"; "NOOB"; "***" and rant posts. Then foward the IDEAS which get the public support to CCP. And from these ideas CCP might come up with something refreshing and new for the game, naturally all the ideas won't make it in, but thats not what we're expecting either. Also; DAMNIT SECOND!!1 _______ ◕◡◕
Gabriel Darkefyre Minmatar Crystal Ship	Posted - 2008.08.14 11:51:00 - [4] I'd agree, is there any real need for it to go through all the hoops of going first to the CSM then to CCP to get an answer 3 months down the line when the question is easily answerable with a short Yes/No Answer?
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:14:00 - [5] Originally by: fuze Did you just say CSM is a waste of time? No, what he said was a waste of time was using valuable time with CCP on raising a trivial question which can be answered elsewhere. CSMs have more heavier questions to work on then a single question about if the tournament will be held again. At least, thats how I read it! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:17:00 - [6] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/08/2008 12:21:25 Let me get this straight; CSM is our link to CCP. CSM is on these same forums that we are, raising an issue like anyone else could. What the hell are you guys doing? In short, when CSM whine, the CSM things ain't working. If people, several as you say, want to know about the alliance tournament, it's your duty to make it "worth your time". My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/08/2008 12:21:25 Let me get this straight; CSM is our link to CCP. CSM is on these same forums that we are, raising an issue like anyone else could. What the hell are you guys doing? In short, when CSM whine, the CSM things ain't working. If people, several as you say, want to know about the alliance tournament, it's your duty to make it "worth your time". End of thread reached. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Vyktor Abyss IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:36:00 - [8] Simple truth of the matter in my opinion "Why haven't CCP responded to qns about Eve TV?" is CCP don't care as much about Eve as they used to... The people that created Eve when it was their baby, have left. New people who have come in dont seem to like this red-headed, whining, infant that Eve (and its community) has become. They do their jobs to what is expected of them and push the boat out on important patches perhaps (gotta look like you care to the boss), collect their paycheck and go out getting drunk in the hedonistic bliss Iceland offers young folk. With a few exceptions CCP don't understand that their predecessors gave more, at least in terms of bravery (writing their thoughts come hell or high water), in terms of creativity by expanding the game with content rather than just 100 new missions (haul a 1m3 turd instead of a 1m3 doll = +1 new mission? - You get my point) and in terms of engaging with the community via the forums to share the enthusiasm for the game. The community now suffers because CCP dont want to engage the community to resolve the games problems, even an 'elected' less whiney part of that community. And like children, the older Eve gets the more problems are developing. Blogs (of significance) appear less frequently which is amazing considering staff numbers keep rising. Changes get pushed through without any real sensitivity to the community reaction - like asking for feedback on changes should result in a dialogue, but this doesn't occur any more. It appears CCP has "burnt out" in terms of developing Eve further to me as a regular forum reader. I'm thinking of going to fanfest for the first time, but I'm sure you'd only see the "polished up" Sunday best version of Eve. Which if I'm not going to see anything real and properly engage with the developers enthused about the next steps for the game then I'd rather spend my money on taking the neice and nephew to a Theme Park. Cheers, A 'very jaded' Vyktor.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:53:00 - [9] The community suffers because of its own actions, Vyktor. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Gonada Gallente R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:00:00 - [10] and there you have it: a CSM making a whine post. thank you, sir, you and your fellow CSM's have shown your true colors. how many goons are CM's now? 4? Please, jump into traffic
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:15:00 - [11] It's always struck me that Eve has a ludicrously large scope, and now putting in ambulation, there are sooo many things that could be put in that I know won't because there simply isn't time I think CCP would do well to respond more to the forums actually designed for giving player feedback as to current and future direction of the game, the Features and Ideas, and Game Development forums. If people can be mature enough to have sensible and balanced discussions there (as they seem to do the vast majority of the time), it'd be nice to at least have devs come along and say "well we can't really do that" or "you may not realise but.." and then from there people will at least know if their ideas are feasible or if they have to rethink things that seem simple on the surface but not once you know the specifics of the game _______ People like that don't have friends just temporary common interests.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:22:00 - [12] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/08/2008 13:23:08 When people don't know, they speculate. When people speculate, others think it's fact. When people think it's fact, people complain...loud. When people complain, some Dev might possibly see it and take it the wrong way, aka "a majority voice". When devs take it as such, they change things. The CSM should be a tool for the CCP to get info and give info on the game, from a neutral, respected, "this is real, all else is not" way. At the moment it's not A: Respected B: voice of majority(as shown here) or even C: neutral(from what i've heard). The CSM is NOT a place for few people to voice THEIR concerns, but the peoples concerns. Not to mention, the majority of people, the in-gamers(non forum users) concerns... My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss The people that created Eve when it was their baby, have left. New people who have come in dont seem to like this red-headed, whining, infant that Eve (and its community) has become. No, actually, all of the original founders are still actively involved with the development of Eve from what I understand. Sure, new people have come in, but do you know how many of those people came out of the Eve community? The ISD department? The Eve development team is chock full of people who love this game.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Sheriff Jones If people, several as you say, want to know about the alliance tournament, it's your duty to make it "worth your time". I agree. Because it now IS a concern of the community, it WILL have to be worth our time. But if it has come to the point where CCP doesn't even communicate with the community, then something is wrong. I'm not disagreeing with the fact CSM should take up this matter. I'm just pointing out the problem which CCP has atm.
The Wounded Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:07:00 - [15] All we want is EVE-TV back, like a monthly edition or so, not only when theres a tournament.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:14:00 - [16] Originally by: LaVista Vista I agree. Because it now IS a concern of the community, it WILL have to be worth our time. But if it has come to the point where CCP doesn't even communicate with the community, then something is wrong. I'm not disagreeing with the fact CSM should take up this matter. I'm just pointing out the problem which CCP has atm. Good to hear, and yes, there seems to be a bit of a "lul" in communication but i'm quite certain, it's due to holiday season. If, note IF, CCP plan to use CSM as the sole communication tool between people and CCP, then it needs lot mroe attention, work and publicity to work properly. Otherwise, it should be a bond that strengthens the cap between players and devs. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:14:00 - [17] Originally by: LaVista Vista They need to listen to the community on large. Ugh, I wouldn't entirely agree with that.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:30:00 - [18] Originally by: LaVista Vista But in that case, large changes will need to be done to the CSM for us to even matter in these cases. Originally by: Sheriff Jones If, note IF, CCP plan to use CSM as the sole communication tool between people and CCP, then it needs lot mroe attention, work and publicity to work properly. I fully agree. The turnaround time on CSM, as it is now, is WAY too large, in order for the CSM to act as the binding point between the player and CCP. I won't discuss if this would be a good thing, but I will fully agree with your point. We need to define the scope of the CSM better. CSM should(This is also what Noah suggested in his interview at a site which has escaped my mind) bring out the "large" issues, not simple yes/no answers.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: LaVista Vista They need to listen to the community on large. Ugh, I wouldn't entirely agree with that. So CCP should simply not listen to the community, but just CSM? I beg to differ tbh. CSM shouldn't be the only mean of communication. While it should be their primarily focus on development, they shouldn't ignore the questions of the community. Especially not on such trivial matters as this is(Of course there could be several variables which CCP has to think about, before they can comment. But at least tell us you are working on it, then)
Sarin Adler Caldari Saturn Ammo	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:37:00 - [20] Not trying to read his mind but I think he means there are some people who is not worth listening (hint: check recent discussion on speed nerf). In some way I think CSM is there to reduce the signal to noise ration in these issues (ignoring whiners, trolls, ***gots, and other useless entities).
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:41:00 - [21] Originally by: Sarin Adler Not trying to read his mind but I think he means there are some people who is not worth listening (hint: check recent discussion on speed nerf). In some way I think CSM is there to reduce the signal to noise ration in these issues (ignoring whiners, trolls, ***gots, and other useless entities). I thought that was what he was trying to say too. But that is far away from saying CCP shouldn't listen. CCP should listen very closely, but they should NOT listen to whiners and the like. However, that is completely up for the individual to chose what to listen to. I trust that CCP can do this for themselves without having to listen to a council.
fuze Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:49:00 - [22] So LV do you suggest that CSM shouldn't listen to suggestions from players anymore but set out their own agenda with topics and share this with the community and CCP? And what kind of topics do you consider 'large'? Nano nerf? GUI? POS warfare? Ambulation? GTC? Eve Economy?
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:54:00 - [23] Originally by: fuze So LV do you suggest that CSM shouldn't listen to suggestions from players anymore but set out their own agenda with topics and share this with the community and CCP? And what kind of topics do you consider 'large'? Nano nerf? GUI? POS warfare? Ambulation? GTC? Eve Economy? No. I wouldn't suggest that at all. I'm just pointing out the fact that is has come to the CSM having to ask CCP, that there is an issue on CCP's end. I'm happy to bring up this issue with CCP for the next CSM. But due to the nature of CSM, if it becomes "standard" that anything the community wants an answer for, then the community will suffer from it a great deal.
Pak Narhoo Gallente Pacific Starfleet Command	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:14:00 - [24] Originally by: LaVista Vista But if it has come to the point where CCP doesn't even communicate with the community, then something is wrong. I'm not disagreeing with the fact CSM should take up this matter. I'm just pointing out the problem which CCP has atm. What!? CCP not communicating with its community? I'm shocked sir! Totally shocked! The horror thinking of that is gruesome. Thank god thats not the case in the Linux & Mac forums, I........ oh, wait. /sarcasm --- I too, do wonder though what is going on at CCP. The dev blogs are more frequent these days, but the presence of CCP on the forums, has dwindled down to a trickle. (maybe everybody is on vacation?) Then again, it makes me wonder if the community has gone too far. Having said that, its CCP's game, if they have trouble with the posts on their forum, they should act more harsh. Hey, CCP made EVE a dark and unforgiving MMO, and that is reflected in the forums. Not that I say 'yay' to the moronic posts, but ('someone help me out with this: old Dutch saying: wie wind zaait zal storm oogsten')

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:22:00 - [25] O Oveur Where Art Thou?! We miss you! O Kieron Where ARt Thou?! We miss you! (Ok we know where you are) O Garthagk Where Art Thou?! We miss you! (Ok you quit) the list can go on... But really, I agree to a certain extent, at some point earlier, for some reason CCP officials went quiet. I understand why with things happened in the past. But still, there need to be other ways of communication to be available. CSM is a step, we just need to make it work as well. I really hope it will work. Go CCP Go! We love you long time! Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar?

Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Chribba But really, I agree to a certain extent, at some point earlier, for some reason CCP officials went quiet. I understand why with things happened in the past. But still, there need to be other ways of communication to be available. CSM is a step, we just need to make it work as well. I really hope it will work. Go CCP Go! We love you long time! The why of it is no mystery, Chribba. You've been active in these forums forever too, definitely long enough to know why. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Chribba I really hope it will work. Go CCP Go! We love you long time! Ain't that the truth. We should really form our own S.H.I.E.L.D. You know, like in the comic, but it would be Some Hope In Explaining Logical Designs. Or some such. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:32:00 - [28] Originally by: Winterblink The why of it is no mystery, Chribba. You've been active in these forums forever too, definitely long enough to know why. Yep I know. I just find it sad it took the turn it took Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar?

Alz Shado Ever Flow HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:41:00 - [29] Edited by: Alz Shado on 14/08/2008 15:42:01 It's a natural extension of in-game mechanics. CSM is a patch to cover forum lag to avoid the ever-present threat of "Whine Modules won't activate! Launch Threadnought!" sploit While it's not quite a debacle on the scale of Remote DDing (yet) I would say the biggest problem with CSM right now is shown in the current pattern of game development "news" a) Vague CCP announcement regarding massive/unimportant changes to existing structure/mechanics, or a Vote for Best MMO! Poll on mmorpg.com b) Rational Forum Discourse with mild emorage c) Radio Silence / Shusshing noises from CCP d) CSM acknowledging interest e) CSM Drafting long-winded Op-Ed PDFs, planning, plotting, scheming, backstabbing, and other miscellaneous politiking. e) CSM-to-CCP backroom chatter at some distant point (usually well after emorage has flaired up and died again) f) Official word from CSM regarding CCP's noncomittal response. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Morrow Borric Morrow Prime Industries Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.14 15:43:00 - [30] Originally by: LaVista Vista I'm personally a big fan of EVETV's coverage of the alliance tournament. It's a great event and does for great socialization inside the community. People have asked me several times "What is happening to the alliance tournament?", but the answer always is "I don't know.". I always wanted to raise it for the CSM, but I have held off due to a simple thing: It's a waste of CSM's time. The recent dev-blog, wanting to remove the alliance tournament forum, has created tons of speculation. No CCP answer though. So I just commented on a well-raised issue over at the CSM forum, about the alliance tournament. Now comes the emo-part of my post, and I shall make it short: CCP, if you want CSM to work, don't just sit back and NOT answer any community issues based on your own initiative(They do answer SOME things, but they also seem blissfully ignorant in most cases). I guess CSM will raise about certain things, if you guys don't take initiative to answer the community. But in that case, large changes will need to be done to the CSM for us to even matter in these cases. </emo> tl;dr: CCP needs not to rely on CSM for asking questions. They need to listen to the community on large. Anything else is a waste of everybody's time. Maybe only 11% of CCP cares about CSM, like the player base?

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