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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.22 17:03:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 22/08/2008 17:07:23
Originally by: Ketch Kan Edited by: Ketch Kan on 22/08/2008 16:23:34 Thank you GM Guard for your post
To the rest of you à.. 1:Yes I was taking isk from people I knew to be isk farmers 2:No I have never hacked an account nor did I know anything about account hacking till GuardÆs post 3:My alliance had no knowledge of any of my transactions (why would I tell them I wasnÆt proud of it ) 4: I was excepting isk for blue standings for over a year even when I didnÆt have the ability to set standings in that alliance anymore 5: as Guard pointed out I got isk in small amounts with some stupid description. That was a recent development most the early transfers did not go this way. 6: the last convo with the farmers was when they found out thay didnÆt have blue standings with anyone in the area they ratted and man they didnÆt like me. 7: the toon that received the isk was deleted to make room for another toon and because it couldnÆt get isk from very mad farmers any more.
If in fact the isk I received came from Hacked accounts then the titan should be removed, then reimburse any one who lost isk to a hack (farmers I can deal with, hackers should be shot on site ) As far as a perma ban on the pilot thatÆs up to CCP not the forums.
I will be putting my toons up on the forums as a lottery pick a number if you pick the right one you get the toon associated with that number I will ask CCPÆs help in a way to insure you cant just use alts on the same account to get more numbers .
I am quitting EVE and if you guys want to keep playing then YES YOU CAN HAVE MY STUFF but only as fare as I can make it for every one.
Would it not be a better idea to name and shame the isk sellers or perhaps better still, name and shame which alliances were sheltering them? --
Billion Isk Mission |
Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.08.22 17:44:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Would it not be a better idea to name and shame the isk sellers or perhaps better still, name and shame which alliances were sheltering them?
Dangerous game that, I am sure all alliances have come into contact with and or rented space to isk sellers.
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Toolbert
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.22 19:04:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Setana Manoro Edited by: Setana Manoro on 22/08/2008 15:37:18
Originally by: Toolbert
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Toolbert I'm not, shows how little integrity they have. Its bad enough CCP only keeps the isk farmers and sellers around until they make a real big mess of things.
So if you dislike them so much, why are you still here?
hurrrrrr clearly because I dont agree with one thing I think this game is horrible
who wants to be the first pubbie to get all of my stuff because i'm quitting, cya guys later!
how ****ing stupid are you?
Put up, shut up, or do something about it. Either way, stop whining about your perceived unfairness of a internet spaceships game, your SA masters would be dissapointed by your n00bishness.
Also, after 6 pages, when we find the whole story, i'd like to see the ppl that still stand by dino's credibility, including some of the alliance leaders that posted - warned you about looking like a fool kiaeddz.
So ... Ketch, can i have your stuff before you /wrists on your accounts ?
Okay since fairness and serious business mean nothing, I hope CCP stops banning ISK farmers and buyers. No need to do it since its just an internet spaceship game. Who cares?
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Swirlar
Miners in Black
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Posted - 2008.08.22 19:10:00 -
[184]
They're ****ed because without the titan, they can't mega-kill pods in BWF on the OIJ gate.
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Murtala
Mushin Market
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Posted - 2008.08.22 20:16:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Ketch Kan YES YOU CAN HAVE MY STUFF but only
can i have your stuff
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insolace
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.22 20:42:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Isaac Orion A ratting corp (multiple characters depositing to the same corp wallet) gets access from an alliance to rat in their space. In return, the alliance gets a percentage of that money as a collateral for letting the ratters in the space (aka, tax). In order for that to happen, said alliance needs an alt in the ratting corp to take said tax from the corp wallet. That character took some of the money and gave it to the mentioned titan pilot (not the actual titan pilot, who is an alt of course) through "donations with random reasons". That ends that story. No harm in that right? Just good old fashioned stealing from some isk farmers.
This totally makes sense except for:
Originally by: GM Guard All of this ISK was later transferred to the titan pilot directly by his alt and shortly thereafter the alt was deleted. The 45 billion ISK was used to fund the larger part of the titan that we later decided to remove from the game.
Why was the alt deleted after the 45b isk was transfered to the titan pilot?
Also the going rate for ratting rights in a decent constellation is a few billion isk a month, right? If the 45b was really from ratting taxes then surely it would have taken many months to accumulate that sum? Because if it only took a few days or weeks and the isk was transfered from isk sellers, then how can you expect us to believe that it wasn't purchased?
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.08.22 21:33:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Ketch Kan
I will be putting my toons up on the forums as a lottery pick a number if you pick the right one you get the toon associated with that number
#4 for me.
Black Hand.
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cheese monkey
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.23 00:26:00 -
[188]
You will be missed ketch.
Ive just had the reality of the situation explained to me and its actually VERY ironic and as per my guess u aint done a thing wrong. CCP seem to place the burden of proof on you when it should be on them, shame they dont follow the same legal principles as ALL of europe, and most of the US.
Anyways Hit me up if u ever fancy joining again n ill chuck u a few hundred mill. Fly safe mate.
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Gorfob
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.23 00:42:00 -
[189]
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patteSatan
Celtic industries
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Posted - 2008.08.23 03:03:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Kuolematon
Originally by: Mjabi .. Will I now get my 1st forum warning?
NOOB! Real men has dozen of those under their belts.
Real men doesent get any warnings.
/salutes Kia
...you women are creepy, but amusing as hell.
404 - Sense of humour not found. <===hUssmann VETO. made that
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halp me
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 03:17:00 -
[191]
so wait this is the first lefit titan kill for ccp?
grats on the kill ccp
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patteSatan
Celtic industries
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Posted - 2008.08.23 03:20:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Shinigami Edited by: Shinigami on 18/08/2008 09:54:42 They should just ban whole alliances if they are knowingly harboring isk farmers, and profiting from it.
They cant ban bob, they are selling the game because bob is here again.(how they got back will be dubious)
...you women are creepy, but amusing as hell.
404 - Sense of humour not found. <===hUssmann VETO. made that
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Tmarte
Caldari Explora Empire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.08.23 15:02:00 -
[193]
Ok so lets get something straight. Isk farming is legal. Isk selling for RL money is illegal.
If an alliance harbors isk farmers, whether it's renting or skimming money, they are harboring a legal entity. Renting out space is legal. Getting paid isk to have these people is legal. I doubt that when an alliance rents out space to a corp to farm isk, that they do a background check on everybody to see if their legit. No they just say give us XXXmil isk per week/day and you can mine/rat all you want in these systems. I doubt highly they would know if the renting corp was selling/hacking doing whatever legal shit they were doing on the side. Nor would the alliance care to know. They just want their XXXmil per week/day rent.
Now the alliance collecting that rent money is collecting it legally. They are entitled to that money since it is their space being rented out. How the people they are renting the space out to got the money is of no relevance to the situation. The people hacking/selling isk should be banned. The alliance renting space should be able to keep the money since they earned it legally. Just because the renters are isk sellers doesn't mean the alliance should be punished. They had no way of knowing that the isk farmers were doing something shady on the side. The alliance received the funds in a legal manner.
If you rob $300,000 from a bank then go buy a lamborghini, the government isn't going to go to the dealership and demand the 300,000 back are they? Hell no they can't do that. They car was bought legally, and with cash. The dealer would have no way of knowing where the money came from, nor do they care. If you stole 5 bucks from a kid and went to McDonalds and bought a sandwich, the parents are going to demand the money back from the restuarant are they? No they can't because it was bought legally, they need to demand the money back from the person who stole the 5 bucks.
In a nutshell, the alliance rented out space, received their payment. Their involvment ends here. Just because the isk sellers got the money illegally doesn't mean the alliance get's docked/punished for it. CCP should punish only the isk sellers, either by negating their wallets or outright banning the accounts. Punishing an alliance when there's no way they would know the shady side of the isk farmer is unnecessary.
Of course, everything I explained is fine, but the Titan pilot seemed to beat around the bush and from GM Guards post, seemed pretty shady. If the titan pilot would have come out and said, we rented out space, i got that money by fair game mechanics, and I asked the renters to please note it was for protection yadda yadda, then fine. Maybe the people were chinese and can't type in english very well? Benefit of the doubt, sure. But the titan pilot should have come out and said he was renting and stealing per game mechanics, not beat around the bush.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.23 16:12:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Tmarte If you rob $300,000 from a bank then go buy a lamborghini, the government isn't going to go to the dealership and demand the 300,000 back are they? Hell no they can't do that. They car was bought legally, and with cash. The dealer would have no way of knowing where the money came from, nor do they care. If you stole 5 bucks from a kid and went to McDonalds and bought a sandwich, the parents are going to demand the money back from the restuarant are they? No they can't because it was bought legally, they need to demand the money back from the person who stole the 5 bucks.
In a nutshell, the alliance rented out space, received their payment. Their involvment ends here. Just because the isk sellers got the money illegally doesn't mean the alliance get's docked/punished for it. CCP should punish only the isk sellers, either by negating their wallets or outright banning the accounts. Punishing an alliance when there's no way they would know the shady side of the isk farmer is unnecessary.
There is no point becoming a "internet lawer" if you do not bother reading what the situation is. If the dealership knows the money is not legal, then he goes to jail along with the theif. Thats the problem with internet lawers - they think "pub knowledge" is the real law.
Nobody is talking about where the accused did not know if someone is a isk farmer. The problem is when people deal with known isk farmers. See the difference?
The guy got his titan ..... nerfed because he knowingly got involved and was happy to deal with isk farmers. Heck, he still refuses to name and shame those involved in harbouring them, and that in itself is classed as 'obstruction'.
If someone were to deal with a known isk farmer groups such as beatlrice etc, then they are doing themselves no favors. --
Billion Isk Mission |
sliver 0xD
exiles. The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2008.08.23 18:03:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Tmarte If you rob $300,000 from a bank then go buy a lamborghini, the government isn't going to go to the dealership and demand the 300,000 back are they? Hell no they can't do that. They car was bought legally, and with cash. The dealer would have no way of knowing where the money came from, nor do they care. If you stole 5 bucks from a kid and went to McDonalds and bought a sandwich, the parents are going to demand the money back from the restuarant are they? No they can't because it was bought legally, they need to demand the money back from the person who stole the 5 bucks.
In a nutshell, the alliance rented out space, received their payment. Their involvment ends here. Just because the isk sellers got the money illegally doesn't mean the alliance get's docked/punished for it. CCP should punish only the isk sellers, either by negating their wallets or outright banning the accounts. Punishing an alliance when there's no way they would know the shady side of the isk farmer is unnecessary.
There is no point becoming a "internet lawer" if you do not bother reading what the situation is. If the dealership knows the money is not legal, then he goes to jail along with the theif. Thats the problem with internet lawers - they think "pub knowledge" is the real law.
Nobody is talking about where the accused did not know if someone is a isk farmer. The problem is when people deal with known isk farmers. See the difference?
The guy got his titan ..... nerfed because he knowingly got involved and was happy to deal with isk farmers. Heck, he still refuses to name and shame those involved in harbouring them, and that in itself is classed as 'obstruction'.
If someone were to deal with a known isk farmer groups such as beatlrice etc, then they are doing themselves no favors.
i ask daily for farmers to pay me. should i be banned ?
i dont think this was done right. in holland when someone sells you a stolen item the item is yours. even tho its stolen they can not take it and give it to the original owner becouse you bought it.
and no mather what you say ccp wont care. they can and will ban whatever they want. no reason needed.
i wonder why ketch is still active. if ccp knew 100% sure that ketch was cheating they would have banned him compleetly.
--- Somebody needs a hug! |
Old Winter
Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2008.08.23 18:07:00 -
[196]
Originally by: GM Guard
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
Best Regards, Lead GM Guard EVE Online Customer Support
Is there a published list somewhere we can check so as to avoid dealing with isk sellers. I am sure the playerbase would appreciate it. ---------------- There are no bugs just locked threads |
Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.23 19:10:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 23/08/2008 19:11:17
Originally by: cheese monkey You will be missed ketch.
Ive just had the reality of the situation explained to me and its actually VERY ironic and as per my guess u aint done a thing wrong. CCP seem to place the burden of proof on you when it should be on them, shame they dont follow the same legal principles as ALL of europe, and most of the US.
Anyways Hit me up if u ever fancy joining again n ill chuck u a few hundred mill. Fly safe mate.
You are playing an MMO, rules are in the EULA and TOS. Legal principles ? You are hanging on very thin threads dude.
Your good friend crossed the line, he got spanked for it and now he's emo-rage-quitting. Good riddance. :) This is not a corp made for CAOD posting, mods get your facts straight first ffs.
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cheese monkey
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.23 19:26:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Setana Manoro Edited by: Setana Manoro on 23/08/2008 19:11:17
Originally by: cheese monkey You will be missed ketch.
Ive just had the reality of the situation explained to me and its actually VERY ironic and as per my guess u aint done a thing wrong. CCP seem to place the burden of proof on you when it should be on them, shame they dont follow the same legal principles as ALL of europe, and most of the US.
Anyways Hit me up if u ever fancy joining again n ill chuck u a few hundred mill. Fly safe mate.
You are playing an MMO, rules are in the EULA and TOS. Legal principles ? You are hanging on very thin threads dude.
Your good friend crossed the line, he got spanked for it and now he's emo-rage-quitting. Good riddance. :)
Ketch is my friend. I doubt you've met him. He is a really nice guy and i wish him well, not good riddance to me.
My point was that if your going to form a EULA its best to base it on some pretty solid legal principles. CCP can override the EULA whenever they want, thats the whole point of saying all of this is their property. Its a bit of a joke, but i really dont wana discuss it, i just wana encourage my mate to come back to the game sometime for a little fun.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.23 19:56:00 -
[199]
Originally by: cheese monkey My point was that if your going to form a EULA its best to base it on some pretty solid legal principles. CCP can override the EULA whenever they want, thats the whole point of saying all of this is their property. Its a bit of a joke, but i really dont wana discuss it, i just wana encourage my mate to come back to the game sometime for a little fun.
RL laws are not baised on princibles for the majority of law. Laws never were made to catch criminals, they were only made to stop joe public from getting into difficult situations. Criminals do not respect the law obviously, so thats why RL laws fail to deter people - after all, the criminal thinks he is going to get away with it!
CCP's EULA is more princible baised. So if you find loopholes etc, CCC can still have the right to do whatever they want. In this case, Ketch knowingly was happy to do business with isk sellers it appears, and appears to be refusing to disclose who the 'big man' is.
So expectations of non-princible baised RL laws that were designed to control society vs CCP's princible baised EULA that are there to catch Isk sellers is why you are confused.
Either way, Ketch is not innocent at all. Far from it. If he was to name and shame, then that would be a different story. Till he does that, then all you are doing is supporting someone who harbours isk farmers. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Cippalippus Primus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.23 20:06:00 -
[200]
Edited by: Cippalippus Primus on 23/08/2008 20:06:47
Originally by: Lord WarATron
RL laws are not baised on princibles for the majority of law. Laws never were made to catch criminals, they were only made to stop joe public from getting into difficult situations. Criminals do not respect the law obviously, so thats why RL laws fail to deter people - after all, the criminal thinks he is going to get away with it!
You are wrong, the first laws recorded in the history of humanity regulated, in order, marriage, commerce, and criminal behaviour (murder, thieving, and such). Only with the advent of a modern legislation the legal systems went from a coercitive ideal to a regulative (normative) ideal. -clp
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cheese monkey
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.23 20:17:00 -
[201]
Innocent untill proven guilty mate (that is in the civilized world, not talking about history)
(Skimming/Scamming ain't against the rules no matter who you do it to) CCP have put an argument against Ketch, however have made it his problem to try and prove them wrong. CCP should have the burden of proof if they want to have legitimacy behind their arguments.
Lord WarAtron i see where your coming from, and yes the EULA is there because CCP need the flexibility in order to maintain normality within the game, judge expolits and such... However im sure you can respect a friend saluting another friend and wanting for him to stay in the game... right?!
peace.x
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Ketch Kan
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.23 23:14:00 -
[202]
no i will not name the alliance and I don't think you want me to " people who live in glass houses shouldn't through stones "
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RainbowTinks
ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.24 01:05:00 -
[203]
Sorry to see you leaving the game Ketch You will be greatly missed
Now go and enjoy some real space..
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Tmarte
Caldari Explora Empire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.08.24 05:26:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Tmarte If you rob $300,000 from a bank then go buy a lamborghini, the government isn't going to go to the dealership and demand the 300,000 back are they? Hell no they can't do that. They car was bought legally, and with cash. The dealer would have no way of knowing where the money came from, nor do they care. If you stole 5 bucks from a kid and went to McDonalds and bought a sandwich, the parents are going to demand the money back from the restuarant are they? No they can't because it was bought legally, they need to demand the money back from the person who stole the 5 bucks.
In a nutshell, the alliance rented out space, received their payment. Their involvment ends here. Just because the isk sellers got the money illegally doesn't mean the alliance get's docked/punished for it. CCP should punish only the isk sellers, either by negating their wallets or outright banning the accounts. Punishing an alliance when there's no way they would know the shady side of the isk farmer is unnecessary.
There is no point becoming a "internet lawer" if you do not bother reading what the situation is. If the dealership knows the money is not legal, then he goes to jail along with the theif. Thats the problem with internet lawers - they think "pub knowledge" is the real law.
Nobody is talking about where the accused did not know if someone is a isk farmer. The problem is when people deal with known isk farmers. See the difference?
The guy got his titan ..... nerfed because he knowingly got involved and was happy to deal with isk farmers. Heck, he still refuses to name and shame those involved in harbouring them, and that in itself is classed as 'obstruction'.
If someone were to deal with a known isk farmer groups such as beatlrice etc, then they are doing themselves no favors.
They don't teach you reading comprehension in BoB do they? I even clearly defined the difference between isk farmer and isk seller.
Again reread my ENTIRE post before flapping your gums.
And you make no sense. I thought I made it clear that the dealership DOESN'T know the money is illegal. Quit making things up. ISK Farmer - Plays 23/7 to line his/her wallet with isk ISK Seller - Plays 23/7 to line wallet with isk but then sells it for RL money
And then you missed where I said, everythign would be dandy, but the titan pilot decided to act shady towards ccp, that's a different issue altogether. Learn the difference between hypothetical situations and a real one.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.24 07:21:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Ketch Kan no i will not name the alliance and I don't think you want me to " people who live in glass houses shouldn't through stones "
I'm quite interested actually, so yes, please name and shame! Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
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Frug
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.08.24 07:58:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Ketch Kan no i will not name the alliance and I don't think you want me to " people who live in glass houses shouldn't through stones "
I'm quite interested actually, so yes, please name and shame!
It's Tanis. Tanis are hiding macroers. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Ralania Kerin
Minmatar z3r0 Gravity
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Posted - 2008.08.24 08:42:00 -
[207]
Originally by: GM Guard GM Guard says a lot of stuff
Ok, this story is over it looks like. I thought that *nobody* would be as stupid as was claimed, but alas I am wrong often.
Ralania Kerin
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Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.08.24 11:30:00 -
[208]
After reading GM Gaurds and Ketchas posts again I am now a bit confused.
CCP have said this money came from hacked accounts not from isk farming, so these people involved should not still be playing the game. They were account hackers not isk farmers.
Once the accounts were hacked and isk stolen that isk was then sold, and by what Gaurd said, it looks to them like Ketcha bought the isk.
Even if he didn't buy the isk, CCP are saying that the isk came from hacked accounts and banned him and removed the titan.
So there should be no alliance harbouring these people because they are account hackers and should be banned. End of.
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K'Bar
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.08.24 16:22:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Mjabi Edited by: Mjabi on 18/08/2008 10:46:35
Originally by: maarud From the sounds of things, someone was accessing an account that wasn't theirs and made alot of ISK from it. It also sounds like the titan was partly funded from this ISK.
Is that correct?
Originally by: maarud No, it was stolen from someone's account, which goes under hacking, not corp theft.
Difference
Again afaik, the account was theirs to access. No hacking etc took place, just plain theft from corp, and that stolen isk passed to Ketch.
Dude ssshhhh. Read the rules and then read what you said. Then maybe, just maybe
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TOTALHELLDEATH
Caldari Stellar Convertors
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Posted - 2008.08.24 16:31:00 -
[210]
Originally by: GM Guard Hi everyone.
There has been a lot of speculation on this thread, some of it close to the truth, some of it not so.
I feel it is best at this point to clarify what happened, and why it happened, since the players involved have brought their version of events to the forum for public scrutiny.
The titan pilot had an alt on another account. That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense. "Thx for your protection"..."Boy your ship"(sic)...etc.
All of this ISK was later transferred to the titan pilot directly by his alt and shortly thereafter the alt was deleted. The 45 billion ISK was used to fund the larger part of the titan that we later decided to remove from the game.
We discovered all of this during a routine investigation into an ISK selling operation that had been hacking accounts with key loggers and stealing ISK from players. We were not willing to overlook the fact that someone had just bought a Titan with ISK that came directly from account hacking ISK sellers. Blame us if you want.
Whether the ISK was "skimmed" off the top of some rent deal has yet to be proven and nothing we have seen so far points to that. We actually only heard that explanation after our lengthy talks with the titan pilot came to an end. He had every opportunity to explain the deal to us if indeed it is real, but chose not to for some reason. The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs.
Contrary to what has been stated on this thread, we did actually make some efforts to compensate other alliance members for their contributions to this project and as of now those efforts are still ongoing.
I can safely speak for every EVE GM when I say that none of us enjoys a mess like this one. We know that removing a titan, even one funded in this manner, causes distress for innocent alliance members, but the presence of ISK sellers causes such an amount of problems for our players that we have to take a firm stance.
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
Best Regards, Lead GM Guard EVE Online Customer Support
can the CSM pls review the server logs? i personaly dont believe that the isk came from hacked accounts
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