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Official Daisho statement

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Ralania Kerin Minmatar z3r0 Gravity	Posted - 2008.08.19 10:10:00 - [61] Originally by: Adirawin it's allowed but there are consequences and it was just unfortunate that this time the consequence was getting banned because the money was dirty With an isk amount of the magnitude that has been raised the player who stole it and transferred it must have known that CCP was going to flag it and look at it. I cannot imagine any way they thought that the transfer would not be reviewed by a GM. That he/they went ahead with such a massive transfer indicates they believed they were within the rules, which should be considered in doling out consequences. Unless, of course, they split the isk up among say 50 toons and started recycling alts etc. That would indicate they believed there was a risk of a rules violation or that more was going on. I dont want to defend anyone too fiercely or attack anyone's viewpoint because as soon as I do evidence will come out that makes me look like a moron. This is a case where I'd really like the GMs and the players involved to agree to publicly disclose their arguments and evidence. Generally when that happens the debate comes to a very swift end in CCPs favor and with a case of this magnitude I'd kind of like to know for myself that it was handled properly. Ralania Kerin
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:54:00 - [62] Originally by: Rakessh Originally by: Richard Angevian Edited by: Richard Angevian on 18/08/2008 21:53:47 It's not as if CCP's hands are clean here. They sell overpriced GTC's who's purpose basically is a method of RMT, ie dollars for isk, the price difference between what a GTC sells for and what it "should" sell for is pure profit off RMT. And unlike the farmers, CCP gets to make real money off isk without even bothering to farm. And since they're not farming, it has a much less negative impact on the game economy, and CCP get paid to run their servers and customer support for us to enjoy EVE even more. From two evils, the isk selling famer and CCP, I'd chose CCP any day. Of course, not having isk for money at all would be the best, but how naive can you be? This is the real world we're dealing with after all, and some people will find ways to get ahead anyway, legal or not. It's good to have a choice in the matter. Wrong. There is still farming involved, just that CCP didn't do it themselves. People who buy GTC's with isk are the farmers, and by raising the prices of them CCP has INCREASED the amount of farming done to buy them. CCP's way actually does more to distort the game economy than the Chinese isk farmers do, because buying isk with GTC is more expensive. The "premium" of that service is that there isn't a chance (or is there?) of a GM taking the isk away from you. The GTC's are really at this point nothing more than a protection racket and exist only for CCP's profit on isk selling. In an ideal world there would be no RMT, either by CCP or by shady sellers, but that is unrealistic. Gold farming/selling happens in every MMO and will always happen in every MMO. CCP has made things worse by raising GTC prices to an unreasonable level, which has caused them to inflate in isk worth, and, ironically DRIVEN more business to shady operators.
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:58:00 - [63] Originally by: Ralania Kerin Originally by: Adirawin it's allowed but there are consequences and it was just unfortunate that this time the consequence was getting banned because the money was dirty With an isk amount of the magnitude that has been raised the player who stole it and transferred it must have known that CCP was going to flag it and look at it. I cannot imagine any way they thought that the transfer would not be reviewed by a GM. That he/they went ahead with such a massive transfer indicates they believed they were within the rules, which should be considered in doling out consequences. Unless, of course, they split the isk up among say 50 toons and started recycling alts etc. That would indicate they believed there was a risk of a rules violation or that more was going on. I dont want to defend anyone too fiercely or attack anyone's viewpoint because as soon as I do evidence will come out that makes me look like a moron. This is a case where I'd really like the GMs and the players involved to agree to publicly disclose their arguments and evidence. Generally when that happens the debate comes to a very swift end in CCPs favor and with a case of this magnitude I'd kind of like to know for myself that it was handled properly. Ralania Kerin It's in instances like this where something like the CSM could be useful, if it were used as originally conceived, as a PLAYER run ombudsman group to keep CCP honest in the wake of the T20/Band of Developers scandal. Unfortunately the CSM is nothing more than a PR front, and is more useless than polycarb rigs on a Badger I.
Don J Doom Guard	Posted - 2008.08.19 12:11:00 - [64] I can't see why, if CCP had you bang to rights, you would come on these forums and protest your innocence. You'd have to assume your protests would be blown out of the water with CCP's first response. This leads me to believe that, while we may not have the full story, there is at least a bone of contention within this situation. The accused obviously feel they have done nothing wrong. The main issue concerning me is that IF Daisho were within the EULA (scamming a corps money) and have had a headline player banned for some second or third-hand transgression, then it sets a precedent whereby the onus is on the player (with no evidence gathering tools other than a hunch) to ensure the isk they handle is 'clean' or face the consequences. Seems to me, dirty isk can find its way everywhere in game, although not in such an obvious way as this instance. How much of the wealth of a player like Istvaan, a serial a-grade scammer with a multi-hundred billion isk wallet balance is dirty?? Regardless of whether he is aware of it or not. I think the repurcussions for the community warrant a response from CCP as to what has transpired. If the Daisho pilot is dirty, so be it, but the path to that conclusion seems important in this case.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.08.19 13:32:00 - [65] You assume he didn't know nor have strong suspicion that the isk was farmed, or that he skimmed the isk in a 'legal' way. It might be that CCP made a real big mistake, but if such a big case was looked at GM's even at the top level for weeks then they must have been rather thorough with their investigation. Removing a titan from the game with good reason is bad enough, removing one on bad premises would have rather interesting consequences...
Zurasa Imperial Command	Posted - 2008.08.19 14:10:00 - [66] CCP wouldn't make such a decision without having proper proof. And they don't have to "prove" it to the community, it's between the offender and CCP. You only hear one side complain, read different versions of that story, admitting theft on a few occasions (there goes the trustworthy part of that player). and you read "this guy would never do that sort of thing" statements from other pilots. It's just a bit sad that such players take the ISK buying risk and are sad losers when getting caught.
Sgt Napalm Synergy Evolved	Posted - 2008.08.19 14:15:00 - [67] Hes not buying ISK noobcakes. He is stealing ISK meant for being sold.
Wesley Baird BURN EDEN Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.19 15:09:00 - [68] Isk isn't dirty when its farmed, its dirty when its purchased... I have heard of people getting rent removed from corp/alliance wallets because the renters were farmers, I have never seen anyone get banned for this...so there must at least be a suspicion that the isk was purchased.
Lrrp Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.08.19 15:31:00 - [69] Lets ask the real salient question here. When CCP took the titan.....where is it now?
Ackaroth D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.19 15:39:00 - [70] Originally by: Lrrp Lets ask the real salient question here. When CCP took the titan.....where is it now? The Enslaver playing in Jove space? That doesnt sound right, what was that LV titan pilots name that turned out to work for ccp? Forgive me if I am misinformed. It has been many moons since then.
Brigsby5987 Caldari 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.08.19 16:37:00 - [71] Edited by: Brigsby5987 on 19/08/2008 16:37:09 there are some things in life you cant buy. for everything else, there's master card.
Colonel Katsumoto Caldari Noshikkan	Posted - 2008.08.19 16:54:00 - [72] it seems kind of strange to me that CCP would ban someone for stealing from isk farmers and not ban the isk farmers themselfs.
Holly Mclift Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.08.19 17:06:00 - [73] Originally by: Colonel Katsumoto it seems kind of strange to me that CCP would ban someone for stealing from isk farmers and not ban the isk farmers themselfs. Same reason most US cities put the John's picture on billboards and not the prostitutes. The prostitutes don't care (in case of isk farmers they just make another account), but the Johns usually do (in the case of the isk buyer they want that account or why buy this isk?) and it'll make some Johns to think twice about going to prostitutes.
Don J Doom Guard	Posted - 2008.08.19 17:35:00 - [74] Originally by: Zurasa CCP wouldn't make such a decision without having proper proof. And they don't have to "prove" it to the community, it's between the offender and CCP. You are correct of course. However, it might show good faith perhaps? It could also do something for the health of these boards if the issue was laid to rest with some degree of finality. 1) Why was the character with the Titan banned? 2) If the decision was so clear cut as to warrant the above action, why are there so many people questioning it? Surely if they know the evidence is there they would have the intelligence to just shut up. 3) If the isk was dirty enough to ban someone who merely skimmed from the pile, what has happened to the alliance that holds the pot? (okay this is just me being nosey )
PR0PAGANDA Gallente Raging Emo	Posted - 2008.08.19 18:10:00 - [75] Originally by: Gnulpie Sorry to say, but **** CCP. I will never dedicate myself to Eve as much as I would like to because I KNOW that sooner or later CCP will us screw over (all again). Eve would be really a fantastic game if they wouldn't regularly keep up with throwing BS (and no i don't mean battleships ) around every half a year or so. No, you can't have my stuff, I don't have any anyway Wow angry alt. So really, can i have your mains stuff?
Boom ChickaBoom Caldari Friendly Pod Poppers	Posted - 2008.08.19 18:13:00 - [76] Im willing to bet the above said alliance that holds the pot is TCF. They are known to harbor isk farmers under there alt alliance "free trade zone".
kapads Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.19 19:26:00 - [77] Edited by: kapads on 19/08/2008 19:28:49 missread, nvm
Lithalnas Amarr Headcrabs	Posted - 2008.08.19 20:49:00 - [78] Originally by: Boom ChickaBoom Im willing to bet the above said alliance that holds the pot is TCF. They are known to harbor isk farmers under there alt alliance "free trade zone". we know its sort of a running joke FTZ, i hired noob mercs not too long ago to kill them and they did quite a bit of damage for 300mil. But seriously the farmer petitions should be taken seriously and they should be banned.
Wusti The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:51:00 - [79] Dunno about anyone else, but I can't help but wonder if the timing on this, and the demise of RA are linked? (Serious question)
dev urandom Caldari Singularity. Talon Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:30:00 - [80] it's not dirty isk until it's sold. isk gathered into a pot from ratting & missions isn't dirty. isk sold for $$ is.
Mr Vodka M0DERN AMUSEMENT Mean Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:32:00 - [81] All of this smells. First and formost I have heard plenty of stories about CCP catching people buying isk. They then remove all the isk from the account ...regardless of balance and the people then have a negative account balance =P. It's quite funny. I have heard this happen to many many many people, they just get hit in the wallet. One person I know was hit for - 1 bill in his account for buying isk...thought he would be coy and petition it ..after a few back and forth petitions with CCP ..they hit him for about -5 bil more, they just decided to look at all the transactions .... since day one for the char and nailed him for EVERY time he bought isk ..since creation of character LOL For a PERMA ban to be implimented.. .there is usually alot more to the story and that is usually reserved for repeat offenders of some form or fashion. So i think that the OP is being trutful when he says there is still alot not being said.
Zurasa Imperial Command	Posted - 2008.08.20 09:08:00 - [82] Edited by: Zurasa on 20/08/2008 09:07:55 Originally by: Lithalnas Originally by: Boom ChickaBoom Im willing to bet the above said alliance that holds the pot is TCF. They are known to harbor isk farmers under there alt alliance "free trade zone". we know its sort of a running joke FTZ, i hired noob mercs not too long ago to kill them and they did quite a bit of damage for 300mil. But seriously the farmer petitions should be taken seriously and they should be banned. Farming ISK ingame is not against the EULA, selling the ISK is.
Mynera Nic'Atoch Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:03:00 - [83] Anyone interested in filling us in on the details of BOB's scam, how they were running it, and which of its directors were directly involved? If you can't do it here or on SHC (Blacklight is a mod there and very protective of BOB) I can point you at another venue for this. Myn
Tholarim Amarr Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:12:00 - [84] Originally by: Mynera Nic'Atoch Anyone interested in filling us in on the details of BOB's scam, how they were running it, and which of its directors were directly involved? If you can't do it here or on SHC (Blacklight is a mod there and very protective of BOB) I can point you at another venue for this. Myn HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA falls of chair gasping for air
Viper ShizzIe The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:19:00 - [85] Originally by: Mynera Nic'Atoch Anyone interested in filling us in on the details of BOB's scam, how they were running it, and which of its directors were directly involved? If you can't do it here or on SHC (Blacklight is a mod there and very protective of BOB) I can point you at another venue for this. Myn How ****ing stupid are you?
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:24:00 - [86] Originally by: Mynera Nic'Atoch Anyone interested in filling us in on the details of BOB's scam, how they were running it, and which of its directors were directly involved? If you can't do it here or on SHC (Blacklight is a mod there and very protective of BOB) I can point you at another venue for this. Myn The scam is, and continues to be, to see who will take your title of the biggest lamer in eve. It's going to be a long haul, I know, but we'll keep trying!
Mynera Nic'Atoch Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:43:00 - [87] Edited by: Mynera Nic''Atoch on 20/08/2008 14:44:43 Originally by: Viper **zIe Originally by: Mynera Nic'Atoch Anyone interested in filling us in on the details of BOB's scam, how they were running it, and which of its directors were directly involved? If you can't do it here or on SHC (Blacklight is a mod there and very protective of BOB) I can point you at another venue for this. Myn How ....... stupid are you? I don't have anyone in my alliance who penetrates others' systems for a living .. so not as stupid as you.
The Blinded GK inc.	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:51:00 - [88] Edited by: The Blinded on 20/08/2008 14:51:33 According to my sources the scam reaches megalomassive levels right now, BoB's monthly income is coming closer to 23842299 trilions isk and they still dont have enough! Sooner or later, Bob will start scamming itself, mark my words.. EDIT: Oh wait, they already do, DAMN YOU CORANOR!! DAMN YOUUUUU...
Orree Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.08.22 03:04:00 - [89] Originally by: Darth Sith <snip> 5) With Dai on a high and our sov 4 area secured, I would like to announce a change of management. People have known me as Nacona or Darth Sith and I have lived in Fade ,Dek , Period Basis, Fountain and other places but reality is that I have created 2 alliances (Sparta and Daisho) and run them for over 3 years so I am announcing that I am officially standing down and seeing about reintroducing myself to that girl roaming around the house while I play Eve (aka my wife) and my beutiful daughter. I would just like to thank all of the people i have worked with in Eve, you have been my extended family on TS till all hours of the night and I feel privaledged to have been given the opportunity to lead such a great group of guys. I have officially transitioned Daisho to Isaac Orion, a long time friend and one of the pillars of Daisho. Darth Sith (former) Exec Daisho Enjoy yourself, bud and congrats on your accomplishments. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Ariane DeBlanche Gallente Miners in Black	Posted - 2008.08.22 19:56:00 - [90] Edited by: Ariane DeBlanche on 22/08/2008 19:56:20 Sounds like an, "I need to get out of dodge and sell my accounts before they get banned" letter. Keep an eye on the character sale forums. Originally by: Darth Sith 5) With Dai on a high and our sov 4 area secured, I would like to announce a change of management. People have known me as Nacona or Darth Sith and I have lived in Fade ,Dek , Period Basis, Fountain and other places but reality is that I have created 2 alliances (Sparta and Daisho) and run them for over 3 years so I am announcing that I am officially standing down.

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