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A Way to Help Amarr Recons?

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Berendas	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:07:00 - [31] Originally by: Aravel Thon Edited by: Aravel Thon on 20/08/2008 00:57:46 Im basically saying that buy introducing this weapon, the amarr get an extra weapon type over the other races. Caldari missiles/hybrid/drones gallente Missiles/hybrid/drones minmatar missiles/projectiles/drones Amarr lasters/missiles/drones/feedback weapon And since amarr would be the only race that gets a bonus to this weapon, the other races get shafted edit: and in addition, not only does this weapon deal damage, it also causes a secondary effect of cap drain. What other weapon in eve deals damage at the same time as an ewar effect? First of all let me say the missiles DO NOT count as a Gallente weapon system, in any way shape or form. Only 1 ship iirc has a bonus to missiles and that is the Lachesis, on any other ships missiles aren't a secondary or even supplementary weapon as few ships even have more than 1-2 hardpoints for it. As for only Amarr getting a bonus to it, only Gallente get a damp bonus, only Caldari get an ECM bonus, and only Minmatar get web/tp bonus so the way you phrase it, doesn't everyone get equally shafted? And as for no other EWAR being the same, isn't that the point? All electronic warfare is supposed to be diverse and unique. You make it sound like that feedback weapons would be the Be All, End All EWAR. Should this actually be implemented I trust CCP to take the time and effort to balance it. It isn't like a Feedback fitted Pilgrim would insta-drain/insta-pop a battleship or anything like that.
Aravel Thon	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:16:00 - [32] Originally by: Berendas First of all let me say the missiles DO NOT count as a Gallente weapon system, in any way shape or form. Only 1 ship iirc has a bonus to missiles and that is the Lachesis, on any other ships missiles aren't a secondary or even supplementary weapon as few ships even have more than 1-2 hardpoints for it. The fact that the gallente ships possesing missile bonuses suck does not negate the fact that they are ships possessing missile bonuses. Thus missiles can be a gallente weapon (a crappy one, but a weapon nonethless). Originally by: Berendas As for only Amarr getting a bonus to it, only Gallente get a damp bonus, only Caldari get an ECM bonus, and only Minmatar get web/tp bonus so the way you phrase it, doesn't everyone get equally shafted? THE FEEDBACK/NEUT MODULE DOES DAMAGE! do webs or tp deal damage? does scrams or damps or td's or ecm do damage? Why should amarr get the only utiliy mod that does damage? Originally by: Berendas And as for no other EWAR being the same, isn't that the point? All electronic warfare is supposed to be diverse and unique. You make it sound like that feedback weapons would be the Be All, End All EWAR. Should this actually be implemented I trust CCP to take the time and effort to balance it. It isn't like a Feedback fitted Pilgrim would insta-drain/insta-pop a battleship or anything like that. EWAR should be unique, but not so unique in that it doesnt become ewar anymore. Introducing a neut that does damage would be like giving one race's battleship the ability to fire doomsdays. Its still a battleship at heart, but it becomes more impressive than the other races counterparts. Much like a neut doing damage is still a utily/ewar mod, but because it can deal damage it becomes more than the other races ewar
Berendas	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:39:00 - [33] Originally by: Aravel Thon Originally by: Berendas First of all let me say the missiles DO NOT count as a Gallente weapon system, in any way shape or form. Only 1 ship iirc has a bonus to missiles and that is the Lachesis, on any other ships missiles aren't a secondary or even supplementary weapon as few ships even have more than 1-2 hardpoints for it. The fact that the gallente ships possesing missile bonuses suck does not negate the fact that they are ships possessing missile bonuses. Thus missiles can be a gallente weapon (a crappy one, but a weapon nonethless). Originally by: Berendas As for only Amarr getting a bonus to it, only Gallente get a damp bonus, only Caldari get an ECM bonus, and only Minmatar get web/tp bonus so the way you phrase it, doesn't everyone get equally shafted? THE FEEDBACK/NEUT MODULE DOES DAMAGE! do webs or tp deal damage? does scrams or damps or td's or ecm do damage? Why should amarr get the only utiliy mod that does damage? Originally by: Berendas And as for no other EWAR being the same, isn't that the point? All electronic warfare is supposed to be diverse and unique. You make it sound like that feedback weapons would be the Be All, End All EWAR. Should this actually be implemented I trust CCP to take the time and effort to balance it. It isn't like a Feedback fitted Pilgrim would insta-drain/insta-pop a battleship or anything like that. EWAR should be unique, but not so unique in that it doesnt become ewar anymore. Introducing a neut that does damage would be like giving one race's battleship the ability to fire doomsdays. Its still a battleship at heart, but it becomes more impressive than the other races counterparts. Much like a neut doing damage is still a utily/ewar mod, but because it can deal damage it becomes more than the other races ewar Just because a single ship gets a bonus for a weapon does not make that weapon a racial weapon system, it makes that ship the runt of the litter. No, other Ewar doesn't do damage, but other Ewar can slow you down, make you easier to hit, lower targeting range, break locks completely. That's my point EWAR is something unique to each race, there is much more to playing EVE than dealing damage, that's the whole reason behind electronic warfare. The reason I came up with feedback mods was to help a dying class of ships, not shatter the game. If you are worried about game breaking EWAR, take a look at the many 'nerf ECM' threads around. Feedback modules are about adding MINOR DPS to a group of ships that are (arguably) gimped. Your 'giving a battleship a DDD' comparison is exactly what I wanted to avoid in this thread. You blow it all out of proportion. I stated before that feedback mods aren't meant to be a huge, earthshattering change, they are simply a new option. Aravel Thon; I'm not turning this thread into a Malcanis styled Tit for Tat. If you disagree, thats fine but don't expect people to not state their beleifs as well. I want to just stop the argument here before one of us starts frothing at the mouth because from there everything becomes irrelivent and an originally good thread is derailed.
Xiang Jiao	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:45:00 - [34] I love this idea! X Personally, I would rather it be a normal function of neut modules, just that some Amarr craft get a bonus. Realistically, it would end up being nerfed to oblivion after 4-8 months. Alternatively, introduce an entirely new capital ship module (due to high roleplayed powergrid requirements) and class of capitals that have bonii to wield them effectively. Let's call it Power Disruption Systems. PDS use high powered magnetic fields to slowly destroy opposing ships and electrial systems. It deals hull and armor damage proportional to the current level of target's capacitor reservoir. I'm not going to throw any numbers out here, but feel free to play at home. With this captial ship in your fleet, logistics specialists can go on the offensive!
Syn G Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:48:00 - [35] aravel, i understand what your saying. but think about a typical amarr recon fit... most of the time its drones for dps, which is, destructible dps. the curse gets a minor dps boost because it can fit missiles as well as field drones. the other recons generally use guns because their main ewar doesnt utilize their high slots (huginn, chesis, rook etc). plus it wouldnt necessarily have to be a new weapon system. just a bonus to nos's used on amarr recon. it seems slightly out of wack, but i think that is better than designating a whole race to use one weapon.
Aravel Thon	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:55:00 - [36] Originally by: Berendas Just because a single ship gets a bonus for a weapon does not make that weapon a racial weapon system, it makes that ship the runt of the litter. Eris has missile bonus iirc Originally by: Berendas No, other Ewar doesn't do damage, but other Ewar can slow you down, make you easier to hit, lower targeting range, break locks completely. But my understanding is that you want a module that neuts AND does damage. a webber will slow you down, a target painter will make you easier to hit, a damp will lower your lock range. A neut should just neut. Why does it have to do dps? Originally by: Berendas The reason I came up with feedback mods was to help a dying class of ships, I understand but i feel you're going about it the wrong way. I think you should tackle the bonus of the ship (in this cass the pilgrim) as opposed to the module. Im sure all will agree that the curse is a frightening ship. The only difference is that it has a nos/neut range bonus where as the pilgrim doesnt. The problem is with the pilgrim's bonus, not neut/nos itself. Consider the curse with a bonus to nos/neut range. Imagine using your mod to neut/damage an opponent from however many km off? Originally by: Berendas Feedback modules are about adding MINOR DPS to a group of ships that are (arguably) gimped. I will only agree that the pilgrim is gimped (as i said before its a ship bonus problem). The curse is fine as it the sentinel. Originally by: Berendas Aravel Thon; I'm not turning this thread into a Malcanis styled Tit for Tat. If you disagree, thats fine but don't expect people to not state their beleifs as well. I want to just stop the argument here before one of us starts frothing at the mouth because from there everything becomes irrelivent and an originally good thread is derailed. You can state your opinion, as long as I can state mine. Im not bashing that your idea is fruitless, I m just pointing out that in my opinion, the game mechanics would be changed to fundamentally favor one race by changing a module into something that is not in line with the other mods of its class. Even when ccp designs unique items, there are certain characteristics that an item has to follow for its class type. i.e: like you said, if ewar is ewar, let it stay as ewar (your webbers web, tp's make targets easier to hit, damps decrease lock range post) Thus neuts should just neut. There is no need to add this dps factor in.
Aravel Thon	Posted - 2008.08.20 02:02:00 - [37] Edited by: Aravel Thon on 20/08/2008 02:02:39 Originally by: Syn G aravel, i understand what your saying. but think about a typical amarr recon fit... most of the time its drones for dps, which is, destructible dps. the curse gets a minor dps boost because it can fit missiles as well as field drones. the other recons generally use guns because their main ewar doesnt utilize their high slots (huginn, chesis, rook etc). You are using the incorrect assumption that the pilgrim is bad becaus its dps is not high enough. The correct assumption about the pilgrim's weakness is that (here comes the important part) In order for the pilgrim to use one of its bonii (the nos/neut) it has to put itself in danger by being very close to webrange/death. No other force recon needs to do this. arazu can damp/scram from range, falcons can jam from range, and rapiers can web/tp from range. Thus the pilgrim is gimped not by its damage potential, but by the risk factor that is needed to utilize its bonuses properly. something that the other force recons dont have to deal with Edit: to reiterate my point. The problem with the pilgrim is with its bonus, not neut/nos itself
Angelic Orange Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.20 02:06:00 - [38] Originally by: Xiang Jiao Alternatively, introduce an entirely new capital ship module (due to high roleplayed powergrid requirements) and class of capitals that have bonii to wield them effectively. Let's call it Power Disruption Systems. PDS use high powered magnetic fields to slowly destroy opposing ships and electrial systems. It deals hull and armor damage proportional to the current level of target's capacitor reservoir. I'm not going to throw any numbers out here, but feel free to play at home. You can't call it a PDS because then people will get confused and try to use Power Diagnostic Systems as weapons and completely mess up your whole op.
Nexus Kinnon A Few Good Men.	Posted - 2008.08.20 02:22:00 - [39] The curse is fine. The pilgrim is fine if you fit it right. (cargohold expanders amirite)
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.20 02:39:00 - [40] Originally by: Nexus Kinnon The curse is fine. The pilgrim is fine if you fit it right. (cargohold expanders amirite) no.
Syn G Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.08.20 06:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Aravel Thon Edited by: Aravel Thon on 20/08/2008 02:02:39 You are using the incorrect assumption that the pilgrim is bad becaus its dps is not high enough. The correct assumption about the pilgrim's weakness is that (here comes the important part) In order for the pilgrim to use one of its bonii (the nos/neut) it has to put itself in danger by being very close to webrange/death. No other force recon needs to do this. arazu can damp/scram from range, falcons can jam from range, and rapiers can web/tp from range. Thus the pilgrim is gimped not by its damage potential, but by the risk factor that is needed to utilize its bonuses properly. something that the other force recons dont have to deal with Edit: to reiterate my point. The problem with the pilgrim is with its bonus, not neut/nos itself i didnt single out the pilgrim, in fact i mentioned the curse. but i meant amarr recons in general. the dps doesnt matter since youre killing any active tank anyway. but if you kill amarr recon drones then they have no dps due to the fact that their main ewar occupies their high slots. the other combat recons dont have this problem. the curse has some 80 dps if you fit launchers. whoopie. assault frigates tank that much. a damage dealing neut may level the playing field, provided there was a viable counter. it shouldnt be on par with normal guns. it should do maybe a 3rd or even less of what guns do. but then again... there was no way for anyone in fantasy mmo's to counter manaburn was there?
P'uck	Posted - 2008.08.20 06:18:00 - [42] Edited by: P''uck on 20/08/2008 06:19:18 nvm
Aravel Thon	Posted - 2008.08.20 06:39:00 - [43] Originally by: Syn G i didnt single out the pilgrim, in fact i mentioned the curse. but i meant amarr recons in general. the dps doesnt matter since youre killing any active tank anyway. but if you kill amarr recon drones then they have no dps due to the fact that their main ewar occupies their high slots. the other combat recons dont have this problem. the curse has some 80 dps if you fit launchers. whoopie. assault frigates tank that much. a damage dealing neut may level the playing field, provided there was a viable counter. it shouldnt be on par with normal guns. it should do maybe a 3rd or even less of what guns do. but then again... there was no way for anyone in fantasy mmo's to counter manaburn was there? Curse/pilgrims have the majority of their dps from their drones. That is true. Ishtars and arbitrators also have majority of their dps from drones. the ishtar even has a bonus to their gunslots (except nobody fits anyting but small blasters becaues fitting issues on ishtar ftl). Do you hear isthar pilots whine that their dps is destructable? (maybe they do) But it is not a ship-breaking characteristic. You can either wait till your target caps out before unleashing drones, or shoot their drones with your drones first. If you're soloing a missile ship you've picked the wrong target, and if you're in gang you gang mates will kill him. If you're fighting a turret ship, use tracking speed scripts to screw them from shooting your drones. Seriously. So many other ships out there also fall under the destructable dps category, yet they still do fine. in addition. 5 Hammerhead ii's by themselves already put the pilgrim/curse as one of the highest dps recons in the game. You want the curse to have drones, missiles AND a bloody neut/dps bonus? last but not least, they ARE RECONS! not HACS.
Emperor Ryan Amarr Imperial Syndicate Forces	Posted - 2008.08.20 06:45:00 - [44] I see you again , everyday now Berendas, I like this idea as an amarr recon Pilot.Though we could really use a Range buff on our pilgrim >.> or SOMETHING
DFox31 North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.20 07:50:00 - [45] Why not just give the curse pre-nerf NOS abilities?
Aravel Thon	Posted - 2008.08.20 07:57:00 - [46] Originally by: DFox31 Why not just give the curse pre-nerf NOS abilities? Perma-suck nos is overpowered. Perma-suck nos at 37km is like taking candy from a baby, and the shooting the baby with your hammerhead ii's
Ravn Silverclaw Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.08.20 08:09:00 - [47] How about just changing the nos a little. Say that as long as there is cap to drain with nos, the incresed load on the capacitor from powering two ships would make it run hot. Using the allready implemented heat system to damage overloaded modules faster.
Arvald Caldari Ninjas N Pirates Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.20 08:15:00 - [48] the way to help them is to slap a ****load of trimarks and 1600mm plates on em and go blow shit up
Aravel Thon	Posted - 2008.08.20 08:27:00 - [49] Originally by: Arvald the way to help them is to slap a ****load of trimarks and 1600mm plates on em and go blow shit up of course! its all so simple now, why didnt i think of that?
Arvald Caldari Ninjas N Pirates Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.20 08:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Aravel Thon Originally by: Arvald the way to help them is to slap a ****load of trimarks and 1600mm plates on em and go blow shit up of course! its all so simple now, why didnt i think of that? hell works for my pilgrim
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.20 08:52:00 - [51] I wasnt aware that the curse needed a boost...
Schnitzar	Posted - 2008.08.20 09:57:00 - [52] Hmm, I like where this thread is going. The OP's idea is good but right now I'm more interested in pre-nerf nos characteristics. Perhaps that could be made proportional to your enemy's cap, not just on or off as it is now. 100% transfer rate at 100% cap, 50% transfer rate at 50% cap, 0% transfer rate at 0% cap... Obviously this makes it very hard to get a target cap totally dead... However a dedicated energy vamp ship with a well timed neut cycle would kill that lingering cap quickly. NOS may need to be weakened and a greater bonus given to cap warfare ships. I dunnoà IÆm tired right now and thinking about this hurts
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:20:00 - [53] The idea to fix pilidrim (by giving it a nos/neut range bonus in exchange for drone bonus) have been suggested so many times, I wonder why the devs would not just slap it on Sisi or on their internal server and try it. It wouldn't hurt, would it?
Aravel Thon	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:28:00 - [54] Originally by: Delichon The idea to fix pilidrim (by giving it a nos/neut range bonus in exchange for drone bonus) have been suggested so many times, I wonder why the devs would not just slap it on Sisi or on their internal server and try it. It wouldn't hurt, would it? Thats probably the best solution. It would make it retain its utility effectiveness, as well as decrease its dps (which would keep it in line with other force recons)
Fujiko MaXjolt Caldari Templar Republic	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:41:00 - [55] I kinda like this idea. But, instead of doing damage to the stats that concern the presence of the ship (shield/armor/hull HP), I'd have it do damage to the mods that tie into the PG, either precisely like heat (maybe acting as heat ?) or in the manner of higher PG-use = higher chance of damage... This would give amarr recons a whole new role, as they can nos/neut and disable mods/destroy them
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.21 16:40:00 - [56] The main problem is that the amarr recons behave more like war-machines than ewar platforms. This is mainly because neuting is a agressive and direct form of warfare, and tracking distruption can be done as well in an arby. Amarr recons also deal the most dps, and that is effective dps that can be managed with ease.

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