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Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.22 03:58:00 - [31] Originally by: Onionico Originally by: Derek Sigres Depends on how you configure your Cerberus I suppose. Until you know what role it's trying to fill it's hard to tell you what ships it does that job better than. Give me a role and I'll give you a cheaper, more effective ship that requires as much or less training time. Alright. Caldari missile based ship that is suitable for engaging nano ships for reasonable levels of damage up to 6km/s. Hell, any missile ship for that matter - doesn't have to be Caldari.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.22 03:59:00 - [32] Originally by: Onionico Originally by: Derek Sigres stuff I note how you delve into personal attacks and dodging rather than respond to my points. Try answering my question. It would be a good start. The cerb sucks and I'm having a good chuckle at your attempts to defend it. I did answer your question, you however have yet to offer a counter to my points - simply dismissing them. Not answering a question is not answering a question is it not?
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:00:00 - [33] Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:02:41 Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Onionico Originally by: Derek Sigres Depends on how you configure your Cerberus I suppose. Until you know what role it's trying to fill it's hard to tell you what ships it does that job better than. Give me a role and I'll give you a cheaper, more effective ship that requires as much or less training time. Alright. Caldari missile based ship that is suitable for engaging nano ships for reasonable levels of damage up to 6km/s. Hell, any missile ship for that matter - doesn't have to be Caldari. It has to be a missile ship and it has to be caldari? Drake. Larger buffer, more meds for webs. Edit - forgot to mention the 5 light ecm drones :) Glad to see you're actually discussing this now and not insulting. Progress. Cheers.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:02:00 - [34] Originally by: Onionico Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Onionico Originally by: Derek Sigres Depends on how you configure your Cerberus I suppose. Until you know what role it's trying to fill it's hard to tell you what ships it does that job better than. Give me a role and I'll give you a cheaper, more effective ship that requires as much or less training time. Alright. Caldari missile based ship that is suitable for engaging nano ships for reasonable levels of damage up to 6km/s. Hell, any missile ship for that matter - doesn't have to be Caldari. It has to be a missile ship and it has to be caldari? Drake. Larger buffer, more meds for webs. LOL, if ya fitting webs to a cerb than no wonder u dont like it, its a mid range ship that does awesome dps at whatever range you want it to. oh and yeah, it can kill falcons, lets see ur webber drake try that poudly annoying fc's since 2007 The pos debate: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851738
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:04:00 - [35] Please pay attention to the question he posed, and the limitations he gave me.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:05:00 - [36] Originally by: Raymond Sterns Originally by: Rawr Cristina Cerb is currently a great gang ship. I agree, but it is outdone by most ships. The ability to hit from so far away is so phantasmagorically un-needed, that a Sacrilege does a much better jump at speed, tank, tackle and damage. It'll be more times of you saying, "I wish I was in a Sacrilege", than, "I wish I was in a Cerberus". Sac and Cerb fit different roles though. Sacrilege you fly when you're engaging slower ships; BCs, Battleships and the like. It's generally a horrible choice vs other Nanos. Cerb you fly when you're fighting other Nanos. That extreme range is incredibly useful as even if they MWD out of your lockrange, they'll still be in pursuit for another 80km or so. They'll be constantly bombarded with missiles even if they aren't in range and if they slow down for any reason they'll take substantial damage. No other HAC can do that so effectively. - Infectious -
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:07:00 - [37] Are you kidding me? A nano sac is a nano killer and a tanked sacrilege can hold it's own as well. The sacrilege absolutely dominated the cerberus in every way but missile (lol) sniping. It's a better ship. Go point for point (ship qualities) and compare the two. You'll come to the same conclusion I'm sure.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:09:00 - [38] Originally by: Onionico Please pay attention to the question he posed, and the limitations he gave me. you realise that one can engage nanoes without webs on every sinlge ship? Its a gang ship, you fit for dps, while soem1 else does the webbing. mmk? poudly annoying fc's since 2007 The pos debate: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851738
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:11:00 - [39] Originally by: Onionico Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:02:41 Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Onionico Originally by: Derek Sigres Depends on how you configure your Cerberus I suppose. Until you know what role it's trying to fill it's hard to tell you what ships it does that job better than. Give me a role and I'll give you a cheaper, more effective ship that requires as much or less training time. Alright. Caldari missile based ship that is suitable for engaging nano ships for reasonable levels of damage up to 6km/s. Hell, any missile ship for that matter - doesn't have to be Caldari. It has to be a missile ship and it has to be caldari? Drake. Larger buffer, more meds for webs. Edit - forgot to mention the 5 light ecm drones :) Glad to see you're actually discussing this now and not insulting. Progress. Cheers. A drake with webs is the solution? Oddly enough I find that a Drake with webs travels at a whopping 1.1km/s. I suppose one could nano it. I'm willing to grant that sudden maneuvers can get you inside webrange from time to time but let's face it - without the web HAM's don't hit (hell, hams dont hit until they dam near stop at the edge of web range against a nano ship) and HML's hit for approximately 0 damage. Can it be done? Yep. Can it be done as effectively as a Cerb? Nope. I like the Drake - I really do, but it is a fundamentally different ship compared to the Cerb. The two ships are truly NOT competing with one another. The Cerb is not a close range tackling slugger it fights from range. You can disregard the cerb's range all you want that doesn't escape the fact that the Cerb can deliver missiles as far as any ship can ever hope to engage. Will they warpout without you getting a kill? Maybe - but in the time they warpout and turn around they won't be helping their gang - meaning the Cerb has accomplished something measurable - removal of one ships' worth of support from the battle. I'm not going to stand on a soapbox and say the Cerb is some sort of incredible pwnmobile - It's a support cruiser. Yes there are other ships to fly that do certain aspects of the Cerb's many roles better but there simply is not another missile ship out there that does so many jobs effectively. The Drake has it's place in my arsenel - if I want an expendible ship the Drake is the route to go. Once I finish training Amarr Cruiser V the Sacriledge will have a place in my hanger too - afterall sometimes a gang needs another tackle capable ship more than they need a support cruiser. Neither of these ships will remove my desire to use a cerb or negate it's ability to be a useful part of a gang.
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:11:00 - [40] If only the cerb could actually enough damage to justify it's lack of proper tank, speed, or drone space. Then it might actually be a good gang ship.

Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:12:00 - [41] To derek - try catching ANY nanoship in a cerb. You'll have as much luck as in a drake. I promise.
Scathain Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:15:00 - [42] Ill take you 1v1 in a eagle vs a cerb at 250km. By the time your missles get close to me ill warp in and out to avoid the damage. There is a reason Cruise Ravens target the secondary target, or are not invited to fleets. The time it takes for the missles to get to you, you can warp out and in and the damage is 100% negated. =============================================== Oh Noes!!1!oNe
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:17:00 - [43] Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:19:02 Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:16:57 Originally by: Scathain Ill take you 1v1 in a eagle vs a cerb at 250km. By the time your missles get close to me ill warp in and out to avoid the damage. There is a reason Cruise Ravens target the secondary target, or are not invited to fleets. The time it takes for the missles to get to you, you can warp out and in and the damage is 100% negated. People fly cruise ravens post torp buff? Christ. Cruise ravens are for ratting, not pvp. Unless you're burn eden, but I think cloaking gate camps are rather boring personally. That said, my "eagle" would shoot you a lot - then warp off as you slowly approached. Give me a setup on a cerb that can 1v1 anything and shut me up. Challenge: solo cerb fit that can take on, hold down, and kill any t2 cruiser, battle cruiser, or battleship. Game on.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:18:00 - [44] Originally by: Onionico try catching ANY nanoship in a cerb. You'll have as much luck as in a drake. I promise. Never said the Cerb was a solo ship. Try reading. - Infectious -
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:20:00 - [45] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Onionico try catching ANY nanoship in a cerb. You'll have as much luck as in a drake. I promise. Never said the Cerb was a solo ship. Try reading. Qasn't talking to just you, stop being so sensitive.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:20:00 - [46] Originally by: Onionico To derek - try catching ANY nanoship in a cerb. You'll have as much luck as in a drake. I promise. I recognize the Cerb isn't fast. But what I feel you are consistantly overlooking is the fact that an AML + Precision Light Cerb (with flare rigs) delivers a missile barrage that: Travels 90 KM before missile burnout Delivers 200+ (Kinetic) DPS Flies at 8.7km/s Explodes at just shy of 6km/s Even with a web such a cerb can fit a tank fully 50% stronger than the average nano ship (35k versus 20k EHP). But the point is the cerb doesn't really NEED the web - afterall if the missile can catch the target (and it's a rare nano ship that missile can't catch) it's going to hurt the target. And because of a strange quirk in bonuses, the AML cerb actually does more missile DPS than an AML Drake. In my book the AML Cerb is the ultimate caldari answer to the nano ship. Unfortnatly as a race caldari ships have a tradition of being the least nanoable and the least effective against exceedingly fast targets leading often to the assumption that nano ships were stupendiously overpowered. I myself thought all weapons had trouble hitting nano ships - then I found out it was just me and my medium missiles.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:23:00 - [47] Originally by: Onionico Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:19:02 Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:16:57 Originally by: Scathain Ill take you 1v1 in a eagle vs a cerb at 250km. By the time your missles get close to me ill warp in and out to avoid the damage. There is a reason Cruise Ravens target the secondary target, or are not invited to fleets. The time it takes for the missles to get to you, you can warp out and in and the damage is 100% negated. People fly cruise ravens post torp buff? Christ. Cruise ravens are for ratting, not pvp. Unless you're burn eden, but I think cloaking gate camps are rather boring personally. That said, my "eagle" would shoot you a lot - then warp off as you slowly approached. Give me a setup on a cerb that can 1v1 anything and shut me up. Challenge: solo cerb fit that can take on, hold down, and kill any t2 cruiser, battle cruiser, or battleship. Game on. It really REALLY depends on the T2 cruiser and it's fitting. I'm not going to claim the Cerb is a solo anything. The Drake is one of the ONLY caldari ships I fit a warp disruptor on (that and a Condor. . . ) and incidentally is one of the only Caldari ships that is actually truly soloable (the tank sacrifice for tackle isn't terribly severe 3 slot tank + 3 rigs (even resists) give you a sturdy tank, blistering DPS and a holy PVP trinity) Closest thing I fit to tackle on a Cerberus is the occasional web. One time, a medium neut. . . until I realized if something was in medium neut range there were in overheated web range too.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:24:00 - [48] Originally by: Scathain Ill take you 1v1 in a eagle vs a cerb at 250km. By the time your missles get close to me ill warp in and out to avoid the damage. There is a reason Cruise Ravens target the secondary target, or are not invited to fleets. The time it takes for the missles to get to you, you can warp out and in and the damage is 100% negated. LOL, fail post. You realise that warping out means u lose right? cerb held the line, and if he feels in trouble he can warp off And dont think that, becasue you can fly an eagle that its way better. I fly both and love both, but eagle is no where near as versatile as the cerb, the cerb provides good all around dps at any range, if eagle gets close it has to change ammo, change scripts etc and its dps will be much worse anyway. eagle: long range king cerb: jack of all ranges, decent at all of them but ruler of none poudly annoying fc's since 2007 The pos debate: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851738
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:35:00 - [49] Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:39:00 This forum thing is hard. Holy double post batman!
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:39:00 - [50] Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:45:49 Originally by: BiggestT Eagle vs. Cerb Alright, provided warping out means you lose, I'd fit t2 blasters on it, a rack of damage mods and tracking enhancers + dcuII, and a stronger tank than you in my meds. Congrats, I can beat you up close with the eagle as well as from far away. The cerb isn't a very good ship, it's nothing personal. Relax. Originally by: BiggestT cerb: jack of all ranges The cerb is: a:) Slow. b:) Low damage output. c:) Mediocore/sad tank. d:) Has no drone space. e:) It's attractions (missile speed) doesn't pan out in the actual game very well. Missiles take too damn long to reach their targets. f:) Has too few medslots to fit standard tackling gear or an injector. g:) Is uninsurable on top of all of that. Jack of all trades . Also, the impoliteness and presence of personal attacks is a good indicator of your argument's weakness. I will, however, take Derek's suggestion and put them into practice. I'll comment further after I try this nano standardprecision cerb out. It might have some merit. Edit - Bolded for emphasis.

Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:41:00 - [51] Edited by: Derek Sigres on 22/08/2008 04:44:28 Originally by: Onionico i'll comment further after i try this precision standard nano cerb out I hope you didn't confuse my "flies at 8.7 km/s" for saying the Cerb can fly that fast - that's how fast the missile goes. I use this setup: 5 AML II's Web 2 LSE II 10MN MWD II Invul II 3 BCS II DCU 2 Warhead Flare Rigs I travel at a whopping 1021m/s top speed You end up with a spare high slot. I tried forcing a neut in there but it didn't ever do any good and wasn't worth giving up a DCU to make it fit. The web is truly optional - it gives you an off chance to catch the REALLY fast nano ships but if the ship is outrunning your damage it's probably going to evade you and the web pretty handily (since it's probably exceeding your own speed by a factor of 8:1). If you lose the web a second Invul can boost your EHP fairly nicely. The mid slots can be fit in a variety of ways - the buffer tank just seemed the most logical in the event the nano ship slowed down and tried to actually slug it out.
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:42:00 - [52] Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:47:34 Originally by: Derek Sigres Stuff. No I didn't - and I wasn't kidding. I'm kitting a t2 SML w/ precisions as we speak ^^ I'd also like to say that I'm not calling for this ship to be boosted. Caldari already have enough fine ships. The upcoming patch might be a HUGE buff to this ship.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:52:00 - [53] Originally by: Onionico Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Onionico try catching ANY nanoship in a cerb. You'll have as much luck as in a drake. I promise. Never said the Cerb was a solo ship. Try reading. Wasn't talking to just you, stop being so sensitive. Meh sorry, habit from unhealthy amounts of forumwhoring makes me *****y sometimes I <3 Cerb. - Infectious -
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:52:00 - [54] Originally by: Onionico Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:47:34 Originally by: Derek Sigres Stuff. No I didn't - and I wasn't kidding. I'm kitting a t2 SML w/ precisions as we speak ^^ I'd also like to say that I'm not calling for this ship to be boosted. Caldari already have enough fine ships. The upcoming patch might be a HUGE buff to this ship. I don't think the Cerb needs boosting. If I had a gripe it's about the precsion heavy missile (what you'd THINK you should be using, only you find that a precision cruise works better. . . ) and that problem may indeed be going away. Hell, post nano nerf it looks like there won't be a ship out there the AML cerb can't hurt, as of the last time the changes were on SiSi at any rate (even interceptors weren't outrunning the things). And keeping cruisers to a "reasonable" speed of 2.5km/s when fitted for speed means you can fit the much more flexible HML and be effective in more scenarios.
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:54:00 - [55] Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:54:55 I agree whole heartedly. Precison heavies need a boost. The patch might be delivering that to us both however. I for one welcome our new cerb overlords. Originally by: Rawr Cristina Meh sorry, habit from unhealthy amounts of forumwhoring makes me *****y sometimes I <3 Cerb. Hug it out.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:56:00 - [56] Originally by: Onionico Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:45:49 Originally by: BiggestT Eagle vs. Cerb Alright, provided warping out means you lose, I'd fit t2 blasters on it, a rack of damage mods and tracking enhancers + dcuII, and a stronger tank than you in my meds. Congrats, I can beat you up close with the eagle as well as from far away. The cerb isn't a very good ship, it's nothing personal. Relax. Originally by: BiggestT cerb: jack of all ranges The cerb is: a:) Slow. b:) Low damage output. c:) Mediocore/sad tank. d:) Has no drone space. e:) It's attractions (missile speed) doesn't pan out in the actual game very well. Missiles take too damn long to reach their targets. f:) Has too few medslots to fit standard tackling gear or an injector. g:) Is uninsurable on top of all of that. Jack of all trades . Also, the impoliteness and presence of personal attacks is a good indicator of your argument's weakness. I will, however, take Derek's suggestion and put them into practice. I'll comment further after I try this nano standardprecision cerb out. It might have some merit. Edit - Bolded for emphasis. Ok, i too was once like that, i thought u needed to tank, scram and do dps at once. U dont. Just fit an mwd on for reproaching gates, a small buffer tank and rest for dps. And i said jack of all RANGES not trades :P P.S. Your tanked close range eagle wld fail, ud be dead before u got in range/cldnt track me coz ur trading tracking computers for tank . You will NOT be able to fit a better (better than 2 lse like on a Cerb) tank and a full rack of guns with room for tracking AND dmg mods. When you say "full rack of tracking" im assuming in lows, and ull only be able to fit one if you want 2 dmg mods and a dcu. PS Im attacking you for ignorantly saying outright "cerb is crap" when its not, ill flame a statement like that anyday. poudly annoying fc's since 2007 The pos debate: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851738
Onionico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.08.22 04:58:00 - [57] Originally by: BiggestT cerb: jack of all ranges DOH. F'ing weed.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.22 05:00:00 - [58] Originally by: Onionico Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:54:55 I agree whole heartedly. Precison heavies need a boost. The patch might be delivering that to us both however. I for one welcome our new cerb overlords. Originally by: Rawr Cristina Meh sorry, habit from unhealthy amounts of forumwhoring makes me ****y sometimes I <3 Cerb. Hug it out. I will agree that in relation to the drakes cost effectiveness, its hard to defend the cerb. However, the cerb is still a good pvp ship and doesnt need a boost, especially post nerf. I do think however, that the draek cld do with a nerf. I mean its almost as good as my nighthawk which is quite sad. poudly annoying fc's since 2007* The pos debate: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851738
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.22 05:09:00 - [59] Edited by: Derek Sigres on 22/08/2008 05:10:55 Originally by: BiggestT Originally by: Onionico Edited by: Onionico on 22/08/2008 04:54:55 I agree whole heartedly. Precison heavies need a boost. The patch might be delivering that to us both however. I for one welcome our new cerb overlords. Originally by: Rawr Cristina Meh sorry, habit from unhealthy amounts of forumwhoring makes me *****y sometimes I <3 Cerb. Hug it out. I will agree that in relation to the drakes cost effectiveness, its hard to defend the cerb. However, the cerb is still a good pvp ship and doesnt need a boost, especially post nerf. I do think however, that the draek cld do with a nerf. I mean its almost as good as my nighthawk which is quite sad. The cost effectiveness question is one that rarely comes up in the T2 debates of late. The HAC's, when looked at in terms of damage output and durability clearly play second fiddle to the larger BC's, but all of this has been mitigated by the tremendous success of the nano school of thought. Afterall, if you ship can be fitted so that it has a survial rate approaching that of "sure thing" in some cases cost really isn't an issue. AF's are unquestionably good ships until you look at it from the perspective of cost. They do a job similar to that reserved for T1 cruisers at many times the price tag. In short, the AF's just are not terribly cost effective. The Cerberus stands out as one of the only HAC's that can't nano well meaning it's often judged on it's gank/tank potential where it clearly pales in comparison to the downright fearsome Drake. But gank/tank is only part of the story - as I've pointed out time and again the Cerberus can do things a Drake quite simply cannot. Is the Cerb cost effective? I suppose that's for others to decide. I do lose them from time to time but I have fun and feel that I bring a viable and imporant set of tools to a fight. In my book it's cost effective but everyone's standard for this varies. Besides, the Cerb was one of the very first ships I really wanted to fly in Eve in early '06. It represents the first very long term goal I've accomplished. I think it will be awhile yet until I cross off the last thing on that list - DD a bunch of ships in a Titan. I don't particuarly care who's ships to be honest. I'll be done with eve the moment I that modules fires and causes things to explode. Edit - also, the Drake was already nerfed once (shield recharge went from 1000s base to it's current 1250s base). And the fact that the Drake is almost as good as a NH indicates the NH needs some love. It's freakin' tight on grid and it's even missing a launcher and a mid slot on the Drake. But this is a problem with all the CS' compared to the Tier 2 BC. The CS' were implemented LONG before Tier 2 BC's existed and are unquestionably better than the Tier 1 counterparts.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.22 06:42:00 - [60] Originally by: Derek Sigres Edit - also, the Drake was already nerfed once (shield recharge went from 1000s base to it's current 1250s base). And the fact that the Drake is almost as good as a NH indicates the NH needs some love. It's freakin' tight on grid and it's even missing a launcher and a mid slot on the Drake. But this is a problem with all the CS' compared to the Tier 2 BC. The CS' were implemented LONG before Tier 2 BC's existed and are unquestionably better than the Tier 1 counterparts. Yeah i agree on your cerb statements but i disagree that the nighthawk has that many issues, all it needs is to be able to fit power diagnostic systems onstead of reactor controls e.g this setup: 6hml II 2 LSE II 1 Invuln hardn 1 em hardn 1 10MN mwd II 2 bcu II 1 pdu II 1 reacor control II 1 dcu II 1 em-screen 1 core defence extender This setup is v. nice but i hate that it requires a reactor control, if it only needed a pdu itd be great. However compared to a drake its really not that special, unless of course, the drake was nerfed. poudly annoying fc's since 2007* The pos debate: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=851738



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