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Why we need a SIGNIFICANT nerf on lvl4s in hisec.

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Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.24 08:44:00 - [1] Edited by: Ogul on 24/08/2008 08:44:04 Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette When did you start running missions? In 2006 before whatever patch it was that brought us wrecks and salvage and stuffs, missions would normally give you a standard cash reward, and as a time bonus you would get some worthless piece of trade goods or T1 mods. Lvl 4's have not been nerfed in bounties. They have not been nerfed in LP. In fact, they have been boosted in LP since the LP store. The thing is, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. Not really. You forgot to mention that loot drops were nerfed so much that a lot of players actually stopped looting before the introduction of rig parts. The LP store was not a boost either, it's just more convenient to cash them in now, the actual isk/LP ratio did not increase. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.24 09:34:00 - [2] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Yes, but the introduction of salvage offset this by quite a good margin. Go salvage some guristas and say that again... Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette It's a boost because you can chose what to get, as opposed to earlier when you where forced to hope for good offers, and rarely got them. The isk/LP ratio might not have increased in theory, but as you can now chose items that will give you the most benefit, the real isk/LP ratio has increased significantly. Only if you were stupid enough to accept the wrong offers back then. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.24 10:09:00 - [3] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette That some salvage is better than other salvage does not diminish the fact that salvage in general is profitable, and that the introduction of salvage has led to a significant increase of profits for high sec missions. That's just your unsubstantiated claim. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.24 12:23:00 - [4] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Is it unsubstanciated? Are you denying that salvage is profitable? If it was, savlage prices would quickly go up on the market as less people took the time to salvage. The fact that salvage prices are going DOWN means it's still profitable to do so. How's that for unsubstanciated? Actually if salvage prices are indeed going down, that means it is becoming less profitable. But I am not arguing that point at all. What you need to consider (to make your argument of mission income being constantly boosted) is if the income generated by salvaging actually compensates the loss due to the loot nerf. (Or if you want to make an even better point, how the "boosted" high sec missions compare to the increasing ease of living in 0.0.) --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.24 15:09:00 - [5] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette As it is now, it more than compensates for the loot nerf (which wasn't that much of a nerf anyway). Because you say so? --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.24 16:01:00 - [6] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette sigh No, because that's the reality of the situation. If you feel you have proof of me being wrong, feel free to present them in an orderly fashion. "Because you say so?" does not constitute as a retort to my argument. So you can make baseless claims without providing proof but I can't? No fair. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:12:00 - [7] Originally by: Le Skunk Strange that, Bears have called for succesive changes to high sec over time. War dec nerf CHECK Your own fault, you just didn't know when to stop. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Perhaps if you stopped trying to be clever for a second and actually became clever you might find the proof you require. So you still have nothing tangible to say and go for an ad hominem attack instead? Very well played, Sir. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:24:00 - [9] Given the massive amount of 0.0 people whining about empire missioning I can only conclude that they have too much time on their hands and therefore living in 0.0 is too easy and thus a significant nerf is needed. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:43:00 - [10] G: Do you like giving handjobs? K: No! G: Do you like getting handjobs? K: Oh, yes! G: That makes you a hypocritisizer too. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:13:00 - [11] Edited by: Ogul on 28/08/2008 21:15:10 Originally by: Ruze But did the speed changes come about because of the majority who equiped MWD's and a single nano, or were they generated by the rare few who could afford gazzilion isk faction implants, full officer equiped T2 ships, etc, etc? The dev blog says it best: Originally by: CCP Nozh Combining all of the above with a faction MWD results in as much as an eightfold increase in speed over what a vessel can reach with a normal tech2 MWD. Now if a pimped out mission runner would make 8 times as much isk as a T2 user, you might have an argument... Originally by: Ruze And it's been discussed before, but missions are exponentially more profitable the older you get in character life. That's a load of crap. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Ruze So while I understand if you disagree, I would really like to know where your coming from. Simple mathematics. An exponential increase in income means that your income increases by the same factor over the same period of time. (Like a fixed percentage per day.) Skill training actually works the opposite way, the older your character gets the more time you have to invest for even smaller benefits. Income from missions levels off at some point. Exponentiality would mean that he who already earns the most (being the oldest) will also increase his income by the largest margin (every day). --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.28 22:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Ruze Exponential was a poor choice of words. But the rewards do not level off. Per mission, yes. But as you become more efficient, you may do many more missions in a row, in a shorter period of time. The reward per mission is almost constant. An increase of your income will always mean the faster accomplishment of missions. Nevertheless, everytime you improve your method there is less room for improvement. Your income will level off, there is no way to avoid that. Originally by: Ruze So while there may not be any 'exponential' growth, as you pointed out, the wages a player can earn from missions has no cap, as he can continue to go for as long as his patience (or his macro) allows, and with better equipment, the conceivable 'max income per hour' is not something I'd like to calculate. So who spends more time gets more money? That one sounds obvious to me. I can't really see why that would be a problem. Originally by: Ruze One level 4, alone? Not a 'oh, wow, look at that money' impact. But many, many in a row, with nothing holding you back but your own patience? Infinite resource, no competition, and it rewards the player for having more SP, larger ships, and very specialized fittings, while becoming no more difficult and 'risky' in the process. Apart from envious whining I have yet to hear a single good reason why making the grind even harder would be good for the game. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:04:00 - [14] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Ogul Apart from envious whining I have yet to hear a single good reason why making the grind even harder would be good for the game. Then you haven't read the threads, or you simply don't want to hear those arguments. Of course there is a lot of whining, these are the EVE forums after all. It doesn't change the fact though that there are no good reasons to force people to grind more. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.29 06:06:00 - [15] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Except many areas of lowsec are very, very underpopulated with small, if any, pirate populations...not to mention the fact that he should see the probes on scan well before they warp to the mission. HOw about the fact that he can return to that mission at pretty much any time? You think the pirates are going to sit there for 15 hours and camp the site? Please. How about the fact that he can't accept another mission from the same agent until he either fails or completes the current one? How about it takes the pirate about 30 seconds to check if the same mission runner has returned to his mission after he shows up in local? How about the pirate population seems to coincide with the presence of decent agents? --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.29 16:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette No, that's just one aspect of the problem. Wouldn't you agree that there is a serious problem somewhere if 80% of the population stay in 25% of the space? My first guess would be that 75% of space must really suck balls. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.29 20:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Kahega Amielden 1) You don't try to make ISK efficiently, that doesn't change the fact that someone paying attention runs them very quickly and makes a lot of ISK Really?? What a bastard! Nerf him! How dare he put in more time and effort and get more isk than me?! --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.29 22:07:00 - [18] Originally by: DigitalCommunist You know what I think? Do you? --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.30 06:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Gamesguy I put the same amount of effort in ratting in 0.0 but I dont make more than him, and I take far more risk than him. How many ships do you lose per day? --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.30 07:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Ogul How many ships do you lose per day? Anyone got a lighter? Let's torch this straw man before it falls down on its own. I would just like to have some numbers to go with his claims of high risk... --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.30 10:30:00 - [21] Edited by: Ogul on 30/08/2008 10:31:00 Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette No, you don't want numbers. You want to build a straw man. Nevertheless, here's some numbers for you: Ships lost per person in 0.0 is a hell of a lot higher than ships lost per person in Empire. Originally by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. So, by telling me that I want to set up a straw man while I am not, you are setting up a straw man. Oh, the irony! P. S. Except for "0.0" I can't make out a single number in your post. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.30 10:35:00 - [22] Originally by: Gamesguy Ratting? I can't remember the last time I lost a ship, then again I ran missions in lowsec for months and never lost a ship either. That's what I keep hearing. Even though there is apparently a far higher risk, the ships lost while ratting are few and far between. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.30 10:56:00 - [23] Edited by: Ogul on 30/08/2008 10:56:32 Originally by: Gamesguy So then you would have no problem with moving to lowsec since its so low risk? I don't lose ships because I'm careful, most mission runners would die within 15 minutes of entering lowsec/0.0. Most mission runners don't die in high sec because they are careful. Yet there is this endless discussion about this mythical (and stupid) risk/reward ratio that apparently has to be obeyed. The only thing I am pointing out is that the real risk in the uber-dangerous space of 0.0 might just be orders of magnitude lower than people believe. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.30 11:05:00 - [24] Originally by: Gamesguy I don't think I've ever died in highsec outside of a war. I've died....67 times in lowsec/0.0, according to battleclinic, whats 67 divided by 0? Would only make sense if those 67 losses would be unrelated to combat as well... --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.30 14:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Normally, relevance is determined by common sense. You wouldn't know about that, though. In the absence of facts or logic to prove their claims people tend to come up with "common sense". --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.30 15:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette You have now described how WoW works. Now, try to read up on how Eve works. The magnitude of your idiocy is impressive. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.31 09:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Dionisius as lowsec is controled by pirates That's a contingent circumstance, not a law of nature. Just sayin' And a clear indicator that the imaginary risk vs. reward isn't near as important and transcendent as some people think. Low sec piracy makes absolutely no sense if you think in those terms. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.02 05:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Ki An 2k isk is nothing. As I said, I get around 9k isk per lp. I don't even crash the market when getting these sums, as the actual amount of stuff I move is pretty small. The LP store has opened up avenues for extreme wealth. It was a great boost to mission running. Please do tell how you reach those 9k isk/lp.

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