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[ISSUE] - Balance T2 & Faction Ammos

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Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.11.27 18:06:00 - [91] Originally by: Pattern Clarc This one is going with me to Iceland How, sir? What changes are you going to put forward? Or are you just going to point out how T2 just 'does not work' under the current mechanic and leave it up to CCP to figure out?
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.11.27 20:00:00 - [92] threadnaught
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.11.27 20:00:00 - [93] threadnaught
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2008.11.28 12:35:00 - [94] Originally by: Mister Xerox Edited by: Mister Xerox on 27/11/2008 20:26:21 threadnaught F*****ING CCP - half an hour typing a post and poof* stupid authentication screen wipes it. try again, use word or note pad this time. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Koronakesh PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.28 17:02:00 - [95] Edited by: Koronakesh on 28/11/2008 17:04:53 Absolutely agreed, there is no reason whatsoever for me to use any form of Conflagration ammo over, say, Amarr Navy Multifrequency. Nerfs on T2 ammo need serious reduction to their penalties. I don't want to see nerfs on faction ammo though, just fix T2 damage ammo, ffs. Amarr Navy Multifrequency L 32.3 EM damage 23 Thermal damage -50% to optimal 1M isk per crystal limited use Conflagration L 28 EM damage 28 Thermal damage -50% to optimal 0.5 tracking multiplier +25% capacitor need 648k isk per crystal limited use Multifrequency L 28 EM damage 20 Thermal damage -50% to optimal 200k per crystal unlimited use Due to the severe tracking penalty, and the cap usage penalty (and we all know lasers drink cap like a hummer drinks petrol), there simply is no reason to use the limited, 3x more expensive T2 damage ammo over even it's cheap, unlimited T1 equivalent. P.S., agreeing with Mirrorgod from a while back, leave scorch the hell alone!! (edit: FYI, domain region prices used, lowest sell order)
Jenny Wimbishi	Posted - 2008.11.28 17:46:00 - [96] Edited by: Jenny Wimbishi on 28/11/2008 17:48:39 Yeah, the above example is a perfect one of how fked up T2 ammo is. The Conflag crystal has 3 nerfs, 1 of which stacks per weapon, and does less damage than the completely nerfless faction Multi (and have you seen what Dark Blood Multi does??? OMFG!). Remove all Nerfs from T2, period, end of statement. Faction is better and nerf free... okay, leave it that way, leave it 'better' than T2, but remove all the nerfs! Originally by:** Koronakesh P.S., agreeing with Mirrorgod from a while back, leave scorch the hell alone!! MG's da man! He bought a ton of Scorch off me at cost a while back.
BlondieBC Minmatar Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.29 18:08:00 - [97] I think a good solution would be allow Faction T2 ammo, with stacked bonuses and penalties.
I SoStoned	Posted - 2008.11.30 05:46:00 - [98] ... or add nerfs to faction to bring it in line with T2 as far as utility.
Jeirth Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.11.30 16:20:00 - [99] T2 ammo needs a revision since the introduction of Faction ammo. Also, why not make the faction ammo lp reward a limited run bpc?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:53:00 - [100] I don't think that there is a problem in tech 2 ammo becoming less available than faction ammo and less useful. In general, tech 2 ammos have a detrimental effect on gulf between new and old players. Short range faction ammos allow, at least in some instances, for that gap to be reduced. That is a good thing. Not a bad thing.
Kathy Vera Dark Collective	Posted - 2008.12.03 07:32:00 - [101] T2 closerange ammo really needs to be looked at now with the 60% webs. Absolutely unusable.
Suitonia Gallente interimo Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.09 11:58:00 - [102] What if we changed t2 close range turret ammo to have a tracking bonus (+25%?) rather than a tracking penalty, and reduce the damage to regular close range damage for t1 ammo [AM/MF/EMP]. I can think of quite a few scenario's where loading better tracking ammo would be useful. Faction ammo remains as useful as it is now, and is now the best damaging ammo.
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:51:00 - [103] Well, back2front for another swift push back to page 5.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.14 00:45:00 - [104] In point of fact, I do use SPIKE in place of T2 for long range & I do use VOID in place of anti-matter. It's dependent on the situation. I think stuff is fine. I think T2 needs less nerfing that it has tho.
Shikagi Sitami	Posted - 2008.12.16 04:14:00 - [105] Spike, Scorch, and Barrage are T2 ammos with per-weapon nerfs, so they only affect 1 weapon, keeping the nerfs at a relatively moderate level (they affect tracking). Null, Conflag, and Hail nerf the entire ship (tracking and/or speed, massive increase in Cap use, or reduction in cap regen rate) so every weapon loaded stacks with the others making for quite a hefty kick in the gonads. Oh, and they can't hit anything... :/ Remove the Nerfs entirely, adjust faction to have a unique role but not be the 'ultimate' necessity in PvP.
Shikagi Sitami	Posted - 2008.12.20 14:23:00 - [106] Not a whole lot of action on this anymore. Nor CSM response on much of anything these days. Any updates, Bunyip?
Manakid Tetsu	Posted - 2008.12.27 14:20:00 - [107] Edited by: Manakid Tetsu on 27/12/2008 14:20:49 Edited by: Manakid Tetsu on 27/12/2008 14:20:32 One of the issues I see with T2 Ammo is that really considering the time you put in to train to use it the benefits really arent there, the dissadvantages far outway any advantage it may have. Really makes training for T2 gear a dissadvantage, because its getting to the stage you could have trained 2 other skills in that time that would probably be more useful. Cost for good ammo for PVP isnt really a consideration.
Dantes Revenge	Posted - 2008.12.27 20:03:00 - [108] Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 27/12/2008 20:03:36 I'd agree. Most of the T2 ammo has disadvantages the outweight the advantages. I would use T2 crystals but faction crystals give me only a little less damage with no disadvantages at all. Faction should not be better than T2 since it has the same skill requirement of T1. It should be better than T1 since it's only a meta level of the T1 variant but T2 should always out-perform it. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
Macita DePuerco	Posted - 2008.12.28 00:02:00 - [109] I hope that council members are taking note of this discussion, I can tell you from personal experience in crafting professions, games such as SWG one of the capital mistakes that where made in a crafting system that was hailed as the best and most intricate crafting system ever created. They nerfed a lot of player created combat items in an attempt to provide better balance, however when the calls came out about other avenues of the game such as crappy lewt drops, they started creating and spawning lewt/NPC drops/Equipment etc, etc that was better than what could be created. My self like many others screamed at the top of our lungs that this is a dangerous direction it will hurt if not destroy the crafting professions. Ask any one that played SWG in a crafting profession it totally destroyed the profession. Now in Eve it is called manufacturing and fortunately their is a substantial amount of choices available to arm your defences, but heed the warning Lewt/drops from NPC (anything) that are better, cheaper, etc than manufactured items should be like 1 out of a million chances to get, if and when they became a regular item drop (as they now are) and their worth and abilities become better or greater than crafted/manufactured items(and they are), that's the end of that series of craft-able items. (production runs grinding to a halt). Do not go down this avenue! So how do you fix this well the faction ammo is already present leave it alone! FIX THE DAMN T2 AMMO. There should be a reason why peps should pay more (because T2 is better ammo) so were does that leave faction ammo, (not quite as good, and a little cheaper) so that faction ammo is still available and a viable commodity to those that may not be able to afford the best. And the T2 ammo once again has an actual reason to even exist, other wise If your not going to fix T2 ammo, I would say to you unlike what a lot of peps here have said don't kill the T2 ammo that is player a created commodity, get rid of the NPC uber dropped faction ammo all together. Lewt drop only affects the pocket of the person selling the commodity, player manufactured item affects the pockets from the manufacturer, to the developer of the BPO, all the way back to the miner, the choice is pretty simple.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.28 00:49:00 - [110] Edited by: Ephemeron on 28/12/2008 00:50:20 I am not a producer, but a user. I do think that faction Navy ammo is too cheap. It makes regular t1 ammo completely worthless (for anyone but poor noobs) The cost of buying faction ammo from agent should be increased 3x I don't support any other changes, other than price adjustment
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2009.03.21 13:15:00 - [111] Resurrecting this dusty old topic for the next round of CSMs to accomplish nothing with... all the old arguments are still the same.
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.22 20:55:00 - [112] Can only support it. Fury Missiles got a little use in some cases, but for majority T2 is inferior. [although I did support it already] To the ones saying faction is "for free": No it is not, 1. LP, can be invested elsewhere for ISK. 2. They cost money, too 2.4m for 5000 Hybrid L for example. 3. Minerals for T1 ammo isn't free either. They cost exactly the amount of IS you'd get for the minerals on the market if you sold those + slot cost 8only a few thousand though]
irion felpamy Minmatar HellJumpers Corp United For 0rder	Posted - 2009.03.23 14:42:00 - [113] There is nothing wrong with long range tech 2 ammo. The scorch tracking penalty may not matter much at optimal but your opponent may not let you fight there. These ammos have a purpose and get used, the short range ammo was a bit poo for minnie for whom it added a noticable ammount of damage over gimped emp/rf-emp and pretty horrible for the other races. With the web changes the tracking/range hits make these ammos pointless most fo the time, I know I have removed hail from most(not all) of my loadouts in favour of more boosters/emp/barrage/exotic dancers. Quick point to the cry abies complainging their tech 2 guns are not good enough....... get a grip! typicaly +8% damage from spec. raw stats equsal to best named. lower cost than best named for most weapons(very large for lasers). option to use both tech 2 ammos including the usefull one. I also don't see the point of the hating on the free faction ammo. It taks normal ammo + isk + Lp to make and the sell price has been forced down to tiny margins, only way to make cash with it is to shuip it to places where people want to supply without going to a hub and thats no different to anything else.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2009.03.23 14:54:00 - [114] t2 ammo needs a boost/removal of stupid penalties. only t2 ammo that is actually used are some javelin/null types (range) and barrage. sometimes rage hams are good too but situational.
Random Womble Master Miners Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2009.03.23 20:57:00 - [115] i dont completely agree with this for a number of reasons. While i do think some faction ammo and some T2 ammo is a bit screwed one way bear in mind theres also a screw the other way. For example while obviously for a vagabond faction EMP is normally best for close range work you would never choose pretty much any other faction ammo (possibly phased plasma at a push) because for slightly onger range work barrage is just insanely better than anything else. There is a similar story with long range guns, yes at close range faction EMP/Antimatter/Multifrequency is better than Quake/Gleam/Javelin but then at long range other than very occasionally when using HACs to kill frigates where tracking might matter Tremor/Aurora/Spike is way way better than faction carb lead/radio/iron due to not only its extra 20% range but also its much improved damage. At the same time faction guns now suck because of some T2 ammo being overpowered and someone even suggested faction guns should use T2 ammo which i approve of. My alternative to that would be make faction ammo for faction guns only however give some of the faction ammos some quirky bonuses. Anyway i will sign this because i would like faction guns discussed and that involves faction ammo so perhaps this will bring faction guns into discussion too. Finally the ammo issue really boils down to the fact that when T2 ammos were nerfed the close range ones got hit way way too hard and should recived more damage/much less negatives than currently (and they have more negatives than long range ones and yet no real positives) and possibly some positives like for example a speed boost on hail or void (since you need to burn in to use them) not a redction.
adriaans Ankaa.	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:38:00 - [116] Originally by: Malcanis Does anyone actually use damage T2 ammo? Range, sure - but damage? depending on situations yes, a rupture/cane with hail will wipe the floor with one using RF EMP for instance... another use is when you're shooting something 1 size larger than you... t2 always seems to beat faction then.. that said, i agree t2 ammo needs a -small- unerfing (read: remove some of the negative effects, remove tracking penalty would be awsome!). also, shortening the INSANE build times would be nice as well... -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr! Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail. QFT!
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:29:00 - [117] Blast from the past here. I know some of my thoughts are plastered all over page 1, but that was all negative. I've done some thinking, and here's some actual suggestions, instead of arguing. We've got three types of ammo. T1 is cheap, simple, and boring. Faction is expensive, simple, and does a lot of damage. T2 is expensive, complicated, tends to do a lot of damage, but is generally nerfed to hell and gone. The only T2 ammo that sees use is the stuff that gives you something novel at a cost that isn't unreasonable - Spike/Aurora/Tremor give you reasonable DPS at gargantuan range, and Scorch gives you the ability to fire pulse lasers at low-end beam ranges without sacrificing DPS. The other eight, however, are garbage - Void/Conflag/Hail give tiny DPS increases for massive penalties, Null/Barrage give range bonuses to weapons with no range, and Javelin/Gleam/Quake are just Void/Conflag/Hail zoomed out. Of the six range ammos, four are good, and Barrage is salvageable, likely by upping the falloff bonus. Null is problematic, but really, a +200% optimal bonus or something isn't totally unreasonable for blasters, and that'd sort of put it in the same category as the others. Of the six damage ammos, you've got a grand total of zero that are genuinely usable, and three that see some use in hyperspecialized fits or, more realistically, EFT pimping(I've even been guilty of the latter myself at times). This says to me that the "raw DPS" niche should be left to faction ammo, and T2 should find a new one. Many are possible, but the first that comes to mind is tracking. If Hail, instead of nerfing range and cap recharge to get DPS, instead did the same or less DPS than EMP at the same range, but had mods of -50% sig radius and +100% tracking speed, then it might see some use. It certainly wouldn't exist solely as a trap. As possible side benefits, you could quite conceivably make some kind of capless ammo for lasers and hybrids(no, capless lasers aren't broken when they use ammo), or a smaller charge size so an effectively limitless amount can fit in the guns, or even a lower ROF and a higher burst damage(especially on the artillery ammo) to up the alpha-strike damage. Maybe mix around the damage types somewhat too - who wouldn't like a projectile round that did all four damage types equally? These aren't definite suggestions, but they are ideas for a direction the devs could take the currently-lame T2 ammos in that would see at least a little bit of use, doesn't step on the toes of faction or T1, and doesn't require being nerfed into oblivion. ----- Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting!
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2009.03.24 00:56:00 - [118] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Null/Barrage give range bonuses to weapons with no range Of the six range ammos, four are good, and Barrage is salvageable, likely by upping the falloff bonus. Null is problematic, but really, a +200% optimal bonus or something isn't totally unreasonable for blasters, and that'd sort of put it in the same category as the others. Here on barrage you are hugely wrong any decent minnie pilo will tell you barrage is god, if anything it is possibly the best T2 ammo around admittedly on frigates the diffrence is less noticable but on even a muninn or ru[ture wiht good skills barrage will get you a faloff of 14-15km rather than 9-10km and that gives you a huge advantage in certain circumstances. Not to mention the vagabond where you can get well over 20km falloff (over 30kms if you faloff rig it which now post QR is not unreasonable) and on larger ships (i like cheap rigged tempests) you can get 45km faloff. While you dont do max damage when fighting in faloff (obviously) any minmatar will tell an EFT warrior that thats where they fight so the EFT figures presented are not real (not that they every are) anyway my point is thats where we minmatar pilots fight and while it is not perfect and i would love an extra 200% falloff that would just be silly (vagas with up to 60km faloff or tempests with 90km). Remember at optimal + faloff you do 1/2 damage not 0 thats at optimal + 2x faloff. As for null yes its kind of broken but again +200% would just be silly it would also change the way each races close range guns are balanced (amarr longest but low tracking high damage, minmatar short but able to go longer but for loss of DPS good tracking lowish base damage (many minmatar ships have 2 damage bonus while amarr/gallente have just one to make up for this), gallente short good tracking, which some might not believe but check stats, and high damage) i would be more in favour of a 30-35% increase in both optimal and falloff rather than the +25% atm. However one problem null faces is not so much that its really that bad but more the idea that blasters must be used at point blank range.
Jalif Black Sinisters	Posted - 2009.03.24 14:21:00 - [119] \|Black Sinisters\|
Vardemis Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.24 15:25:00 - [120] Edited by: Vardemis on 24/03/2009 15:25:14 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto [...] It gives a "massive" 1.45% damage increase over faction antimatter, but makes your guns miss every shot![...] There are situations when you want the 1.45% extra damage and where you will not miss any shot. So it has a role, a fairly limited one, but it still offers an advantage, one almost as good as training the specialization skill a level and when you have that at 5 already you look for more opportunities to increase your damage. -Vardemis

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