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[ISSUE] - Balance T2 & Faction Ammos

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Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.08.22 23:14:00 - [1] Currently mission farmers can crank out faction ammo at a tenth the amount of time it takes a builder to produce the T2 anologue from a researched BPO, and sell said faction ammo at stupid rates of profit. CCP needs to look into the faction ammo issue and modify T2 so that it is no longer overshadowed by a T1 ammo that can be produced by the 5000-unit lot in 1/10th the time it takes to build the same quantity from a researched T2 BPO (much less an invented T2 BPC). Currently T2 is laughable. Few would bother when T1 faction is more available and has none of the idiotic nerfs.
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.08.22 23:14:00 - [2] Currently mission farmers can crank out faction ammo at a tenth the amount of time it takes a builder to produce the T2 anologue from a researched BPO, and sell said faction ammo at stupid rates of profit. CCP needs to look into the faction ammo issue and modify T2 so that it is no longer overshadowed by a T1 ammo that can be produced by the 5000-unit lot in 1/10th the time it takes to build the same quantity from a researched T2 BPO (much less an invented T2 BPC). Currently T2 is laughable. Few would bother when T1 faction is more available and has none of the idiotic nerfs.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.08.22 23:33:00 - [3] Agreed. Faction stuff should (in my opinion) always offer an edge over the corresponding T1 and T2 equivalents, but in the case of many T2 ammo types, the disadvantages are too extreme. -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.23 01:35:00 - [4] I agree T2 ammo needs buffs, but it is still cheaper than faction ammo. Production time is nice to talk about, but according to the market it doesn't seem to matter much. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Hesod Adee Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.23 02:59:00 - [5]
Strill	Posted - 2008.08.23 03:47:00 - [6] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I agree T2 ammo needs buffs, but it is still cheaper than faction ammo. Production time is nice to talk about, but according to the market it doesn't seem to matter much. Federation Navy Antimatter charges do: 55.2 damage -50% optimal range Void T2 short-range Blaster charges do 56 damage -25% optimal -50% tracking -50% falloff +25% capacitor use. Why in the world would any sane person ever use void ammo!? It gives a "massive" 1.45% damage increase over faction antimatter, but makes your guns miss every shot! There's just no reason to ever use it. Heck, even if you don't run missions you can just buy faction ammo off a contract.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.23 05:39:00 - [7] Originally by: Strill Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I agree T2 ammo needs buffs, but it is still cheaper than faction ammo. Production time is nice to talk about, but according to the market it doesn't seem to matter much. Federation Navy Antimatter charges do: 55.2 damage -50% optimal range Void T2 short-range Blaster charges do 56 damage -25% optimal -50% tracking -50% falloff +25% capacitor use. Why in the world would any sane person ever use void ammo!? It gives a "massive" 1.45% damage increase over faction antimatter, but makes your guns miss every shot! There's just no reason to ever use it. Heck, even if you don't run missions you can just buy faction ammo off a contract. It's significantly cheaper, does a tiny bit more damage, and has a better optimal. If you're expecting the target to be webbed down to nothing, Void is actually significantly better than CNAM on most fits. Of course, expecting a target to be webbed down to nothing is a prediction that nothing whatsoever will go wrong, meaning it's a fairly dumb bet most people don't take, but it can be a good idea in a handful of circumstances. Now, I agree that most T2 ammos need a serious buff of one variety or another. That's really not in dispute. But my point was just that added production time is not a concern, because if it was then it'd be reflected in the market price of the ammos, and it's not. Void is cheaper, therefore it's easier to produce. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.08.23 06:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Void is cheaper, therefore it's easier to produce. Incorrect by a huge margin. Void is cheaper, and takes 500x the time to produce. CN Antimatter small can be produced by the 10-15k lot in the time it takes to run 1 lvl 4 mission. Producing a single run of Void S, with a researched BPO, takes at least 4 hours. T2 ammos need to be un-nerfed in a big way, and/or made to be considerably distinct when placed side-by-side with non-T2 analogues. OR... OR, mind you: Put nerfs on faction ammo!
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.08.23 07:01:00 - [9] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Now, I agree that most T2 ammos need a serious buff of one variety or another. That's really not in dispute. But my point was just that added production time is not a concern, because if it was then it'd be reflected in the market price of the ammos, and it's not. Void is cheaper, therefore it's easier to produce. Wrong Herschel. Sell price reflect only what people is willing to pay. Producing T1 ammunition with the same production slot can give better return sometime. Producing Quake L with a researched BPO give less than 900K day (and searching for the best market in several regions). Producing Antimatter L with the same slot and selling it without even leaving the station give 1.140.000 day. 27% more isk with less work. As you can see the buyer dictate the ammunition price, not the seller, so the sell price is not influenced by the production time.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.23 08:24:00 - [10] Faction ammo is inline with other faction items, ie being the same stats as T2 but none of the drawbacks. Faction ammo is also similarly much more expensive than T2 ammo. However, ammo is cheap, faction ammo to someone who PvPs is very cheap, so the price doesn't matter. So you are basically using a T1 item and throwing around faction quality into it, thus obsoleting T2 short range ammo. Even long range T2 ammo, the faction T1 has so much better tracking it is worth a look. I think most veteran players are a bit upset because it was long the standard that you need T2 weapons because T2 ammo is so awesome. A few nerfs later and faction ammo added and it is "Uhhh, where did my T2 advantage go?" Now I guess this is a boost for new players with lower skills, but the 2-10% spec bonus you get from T2 guns over T1 for guns that are harder to fit is what I get? Hmmmmm, well at least T2 is cheaper. Personally, I think faction ammo was given to be the star item when LP stores came out and possibly a boost to missile boats that usually shunned T2 ammo. Not a whole lot of balancing was thought out when CCP released faction ammo, where are my Republic Fleet cap booster 800 charges and my Faction dictor bubbles, come on I wants them. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.23 10:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Vaal Erit Personally, I think faction ammo was given to be the star item when LP stores came out and possibly a boost to missile boats that usually shunned T2 ammo. Not a whole lot of balancing was thought out when CCP released faction ammo, where are my Republic Fleet cap booster 800 charges and my Faction dictor bubbles, come on I wants them. Add true faction drones and not those things that come (rarely) from the drone regions.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.23 11:39:00 - [12] Does anyone actually use damage T2 ammo? Range, sure - but damage? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:14:00 - [13] Originally by: Mister Xerox Incorrect by a huge margin. Void is cheaper, and takes 500x the time to produce. CN Antimatter small can be produced by the 10-15k lot in the time it takes to run 1 lvl 4 mission. Producing a single run of Void S, with a researched BPO, takes at least 4 hours. T2 ammos need to be un-nerfed in a big way, and/or made to be considerably distinct when placed side-by-side with non-T2 analogues. OR... OR, mind you: Put nerfs on faction ammo! Originally by: Venkul Mul Wrong Herschel. Sell price reflect only what people is willing to pay. Producing T1 ammunition with the same production slot can give better return sometime. Producing Quake L with a researched BPO give less than 900K day (and searching for the best market in several regions). Producing Antimatter L with the same slot and selling it without even leaving the station give 1.140.000 day. 27% more isk with less work. As you can see the buyer dictate the ammunition price, not the seller, so the sell price is not influenced by the production time. Edit: note with "give" I am speaking of the gain you make after all cost are calculated, not the raw isk you get from the sales. Raw isk for the Quake are (approximately) 2.400.000, for the Antimatter 3.550.000. Who defined "easier" as "takes less time"? There's a hundred other concepts that need to be considered, besides merely production time. Most notably, opportunity cost - by producing faction ammo, you're giving up the ability to produce faction gear or implants. Those tend to be less profitable, but not by too much if you look around, meaning the economic profit of faction ammo is not all that high. Also, Venkul, if Antimatter produces more isk per day for less effort than Quake, I ask what kind of ****** is still producing Quake. Antimatter BPOs are dirt cheap, and it's not hard to switch over production. Either sell Quake for an economic profit, or stop making it - I have no pity for you whatsoever if you're inflicting an economic loss upon yourself to win back sunk costs. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Opertone SIEGE. The Border Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.23 16:29:00 - [14] Edited by: Opertone on 23/08/2008 16:28:51 all t2 ammo needs to be balanced the t2 high damage rage torpedoes actually do less than basic t1 torps, they have 600 m signature, -5% to cap regeneration across the ship and 100 m/s velocity only javelin torps have clear advantage over CN torpedoes, 350 m sig, 50% more speed... but... CN torps with dual painters still do more damage to all targets, so i don't even bother with t2 torpedoes (SIEGE launchers II + CN navy torps ftw)
Darwin's Market	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:33:00 - [15] If you think faction ammo is so profitable, go grind that. T2 ammo has specific uses, for general use, use T1, and faction if you can afford. T2 does has never meant best possible item.
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2008.08.24 08:41:00 - [16] The problem herein is that T2 has been nerfed to the point that the disadvantages are too many to even consider its use. This is why even some PvP pilots fit T1 ammo in T2 weapon systems, because they couldnt be bothered to use T2 with the downsides, or couldnt afford faction ammo. -
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.24 09:49:00 - [17] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Mister Xerox Incorrect by a huge margin. Void is cheaper, and takes 500x the time to produce. CN Antimatter small can be produced by the 10-15k lot in the time it takes to run 1 lvl 4 mission. Producing a single run of Void S, with a researched BPO, takes at least 4 hours. T2 ammos need to be un-nerfed in a big way, and/or made to be considerably distinct when placed side-by-side with non-T2 analogues. OR... OR, mind you: Put nerfs on faction ammo! Originally by: Venkul Mul Wrong Herschel. Sell price reflect only what people is willing to pay. Producing T1 ammunition with the same production slot can give better return sometime. Producing Quake L with a researched BPO give less than 900K day (and searching for the best market in several regions). Producing Antimatter L with the same slot and selling it without even leaving the station give 1.140.000 day. 27% more isk with less work. As you can see the buyer dictate the ammunition price, not the seller, so the sell price is not influenced by the production time. Edit: note with "give" I am speaking of the gain you make after all cost are calculated, not the raw isk you get from the sales. Raw isk for the Quake are (approximately) 2.400.000, for the Antimatter 3.550.000. Who defined "easier" as "takes less time"? There's a hundred other concepts that need to be considered, besides merely production time. Most notably, opportunity cost - by producing faction ammo, you're giving up the ability to produce faction gear or implants. Those tend to be less profitable, but not by too much if you look around, meaning the economic profit of faction ammo is not all that high. Also, Venkul, if Antimatter produces more isk per day for less effort than Quake, I ask what kind of **** is still producing Quake. Antimatter BPOs are dirt cheap, and it's not hard to switch over production. Either sell Quake for an economic profit, or stop making it - I have no pity for you whatsoever if you're inflicting an economic loss upon yourself to win back sunk costs. Boy, try to re-read your original post: Quote:** But my point was just that added production time is not a concern, because if it was then it'd be reflected in the market price of the ammos, and it's not. Void is cheaper, therefore it's easier to produce. I was proving that you were wrong as a help to you as you have stated in another thread that you are starting activity as an industrialist. Helping you remove some wrong idea seemed a good thing to do. Apparently instead you resent people that try to correct your wrong assumptions. Continue your way, you will have a future as industrialist if you cling to the opinion depicted byt your first post.
Eternal Error Exitus Acta Probant	Posted - 2008.08.24 14:12:00 - [18] .
GulletSplitter Maasai Tribal Products Independent Faction	Posted - 2008.08.24 15:21:00 - [19] Supported
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.24 17:01:00 - [20] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Who defined "easier" as "takes less time"? There's a hundred other concepts that need to be considered, besides merely production time. Most notably, opportunity cost - by producing faction ammo, you're giving up the ability to produce faction gear or implants. Those tend to be less profitable, but not by too much if you look around, meaning the economic profit of faction ammo is not all that high. Also, Venkul, if Antimatter produces more isk per day for less effort than Quake, I ask what kind of **** is still producing Quake. Antimatter BPOs are dirt cheap, and it's not hard to switch over production. Either sell Quake for an economic profit, or stop making it - I have no pity for you whatsoever if you're inflicting an economic loss upon yourself to win back sunk costs. Boy, try to re-read your original post: Quote:** But my point was just that added production time is not a concern, because if it was then it'd be reflected in the market price of the ammos, and it's not. Void is cheaper, therefore it's easier to produce. I was proving that you were wrong as a help to you as you have stated in another thread that you are starting activity as an industrialist. Helping you remove some wrong idea seemed a good thing to do. Apparently instead you resent people that try to correct your wrong assumptions. Continue your way, you will have a future as industrialist if you cling to the opinion depicted byt your first post. I never claimed T2 ammo does not take longer to produce - clearly it does. I claimed that, judging by the actions of industrialists, the added time taken by T2 ammo is far less relevant than the added costs of faction ammo. If the producers themselves don't care enough about the time taken to raise the prices above where they are now, why should I care on their behalf? I'm not a fanatic for the efficient markets hypothesis, but it's a pretty good first approximation, and thus I'll tend to assume that the price is set at the level which appropriately incorporates all costs, monetary and otherwise, borne by the producer. That may change if I get a whole lot of evidence to the contrary, but in that case my response will be to join the market and reap the economic profits, not to whine for a buff/nerf. I will agree that most T2 ammo needs a buff, but I will not agree that the buff should be in production time, since that looks to be basically irrelevant. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.24 17:42:00 - [21] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I will agree that most T2 ammo needs a buff, but I will not agree that the buff should be in production time, since that looks to be basically irrelevant. While a boost in the ammunition efficiency would be good, making them more used, build time is not "irrelevant" as you think. Look the build time: T2 large ammunitions 22+ hours before research and skills for 5K shots vs T1 large 4 hours 10 minutes for 5k shots T2 medium 11 hours+ for 5K shots against T1 4 hours 10 minutes for 5K shots T2 small 4 hours 20 min for 5K shots against T1 4 hours for 5K shots While the choice of keeping the same production time for all the kind of T1 ammunition is a strange one, the difference in production time for the large ammunition weight heavily on the returns. BPO checked: hybrid and projectile
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.25 01:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I will agree that most T2 ammo needs a buff, but I will not agree that the buff should be in production time, since that looks to be basically irrelevant. While a boost in the ammunition efficiency would be good, making them more used, build time is not "irrelevant" as you think. Look the build time: T2 large ammunitions 22+ hours before research and skills for 5K shots vs T1 large 4 hours 10 minutes for 5k shots T2 medium 11 hours+ for 5K shots against T1 4 hours 10 minutes for 5K shots T2 small 4 hours 20 min for 5K shots against T1 4 hours for 5K shots While the choice of keeping the same production time for all the kind of T1 ammunition is a strange one, the difference in production time for the large ammunition weight heavily on the returns. BPO checked: hybrid and projectile I did not say there wasn't a difference. I said that the difference in production time between faction ammo(essentially T1 times) and T2 ammo does not seem to be all that big a deal, when you look at the prices. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Takashi X2	Posted - 2008.08.25 03:19:00 - [23] First im confused... the orginal poster are you upset about the manufacturing times? or the useage? or did you try to mask one in the other Second no one has mentioned how freakin expensive faction ammo is comparitivly... take cruise missilse for instance t1 200-300 isk t2 300-500 isk F 1900-2200 for the "cheap" Cal navy stuff on top of that the profit margin isnt that great for faction ammo i find when trying to sell. im much better off buying implants wiht my lp as i would get more isk per lp
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.08.25 04:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Takashi X2 First im confused... the orginal poster are you upset about the manufacturing times? or the useage? or did you try to mask one in the other I can't be concerned at all about the manufacturing times, but faction (mission farming) ammos have it all over T2 (BPO or Invented) producers. While your T1 BPO is cranking out 5k units you're running anywhere from 1 to 10 missions (or more, many more). So, in the amount of time to crank out 5k Wrath Cruise (for example), you can convert them to CN Wrath and slap them on the market for 1900 ISK/U, which is 100% pure profit. The poor T2 producer has a nice BPO that costs 210 ISK/U, requires raking in half a dozen materials & T2 comps, and a full day in production time. And the ammo they get out of it sells for 30% of the free faction ammo, and is so nerfed that no one wants to buy it anyway. Thus, T2 ammo is relegated to back shelf because the introduction of faction ammo completely skewed the balance. T2 needs to be given a function and niche, or faction needs to be nerfed back to be a value between standard T1 and T2, not superior to. The only faction ammo that should have the possibility to be 'superior' to T2 should be the same as modules: complex/officer stuff, or perhaps even pirate faction by just a hair. Not easily accessed and free-to-produce Empire faction. Originally by: Takashi X2 Second no one has mentioned how freakin expensive faction ammo is comparitivly... take cruise missilse for instance t1 200-300 isk t2 300-500 isk F 1900-2200 for the "cheap" Cal navy stuff on top of that the profit margin isnt that great for faction ammo i find when trying to sell. im much better off buying implants wiht my lp as i would get more isk per lp Profit margin isn't that great??? WTF are you smoking? Faction is FREE to produce! The loot you pick up & refine, or the ores you mine very easily, produce cruise missiles for less than 10 ISK per unit. The LP earned while the 5k run is being produced is the only 'cost' involved at all, and is a pittance compared to the 2000 P/U cost you quoted above. If you can't profit selling faction ammo you're missing a whole lot of zeros on your sell order.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.25 06:11:00 - [25] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 25/08/2008 06:14:17 Originally by: Takashi X2 First im confused... the orginal poster are you upset about the manufacturing times? or the useage? or did you try to mask one in the other Second no one has mentioned how freakin expensive faction ammo is comparitivly... take cruise missilse for instance t1 200-300 isk t2 300-500 isk F 1900-2200 for the "cheap" Cal navy stuff on top of that the profit margin isnt that great for faction ammo i find when trying to sell. im much better off buying implants wiht my lp as i would get more isk per lp The T2 ammo price is low because it is not possible to sell them at a better price. No market. Faction ammunition has a good market so they can sustain a higher price. To Mister Xerox: LP have a value, so they are not free. They should be counted in the faction ammunition cost.
evilphoenix 3vil Industries Efferus Vehemens Inasnum Latrocinium	Posted - 2008.08.25 09:35:00 - [26] Yes! I'd bet, if the numbers were looked at, that t2 ammo gets very little use compared to faction ammo. --------
Molock Saronen	Posted - 2008.08.25 10:06:00 - [27]
REV001 Caldari VXR Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.25 10:53:00 - [28] T2 BPO's should be removed from the game, as they give unfair advantage compared to people who don't have a bpo. So no support
Throwaway Pilot	Posted - 2008.08.25 20:14:00 - [29] Originally by: REV001 T2 BPO's should be removed from the game, as they give unfair advantage compared to people who don't have a bpo. So no support /signed T2 BPOs can rot in hell.
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.08.25 21:58:00 - [30] Lol @ t2 bpo whiners - as if things weren't 100000x more balanced than the old days when ONLY 20-40 BPOs of each type existed. Try paying 350m for a Vagabond... tbh, t2 bpos are so irrelevant these days I have no idea how you find the energy to whine about them. As for the OP: yes. T2 ammo has been either broken omgwtfawesome or broken lame since day 1. It needs a total overhaul to be DIFFERENT to t1 and faction ammuntion: e.g. less damage than both, but extra effects (e.g. cap neutralising). _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces

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