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wdwjhdw	Posted - 2008.08.24 02:12:00 - [61] The irony here is just astounding. To sum up the Pirates position "I want the game changed to how I think it should be, and those that are happy with the game now should leave and go play WOW". Here's and idea. If you dont like the game how it is YOU leave. Eve is doing well as an MMO. Numbers are up. CCP are making the right choices for business. Deal with it or leave.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.24 02:16:00 - [62] Strawman Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.08.24 02:35:00 - [63] Originally by: wdwjhdw The irony here is just astounding. To sum up the Pirates position "I want the game changed to how I think it should be, and those that are happy with the game now should leave and go play WOW". Here's and idea. If you dont like the game how it is YOU leave. No, yuo!!1
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.24 03:55:00 - [64] Originally by: wdwjhdw The irony here is just astounding. To sum up the Pirates position "I want the game changed to how I think it should be, and those that are happy with the game now should leave and go play WOW". Here's and idea. If you dont like the game how it is YOU leave. Eve is doing well as an MMO. Numbers are up. CCP are making the right choices for business. Deal with it or leave. As previously mentioned, this is a Straw Man argument. Only a few people have said care bears should leave, and the fact that you are happy with the game is irrelevant, because you do not play parts of the game that others do. Everyone who DOES play those parts of the game agrees that they are broken, and need to be fixed. On top of that, CCP did not originally set out to create a PVE game.
Mroe Bree Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.24 04:41:00 - [65] Edited by: Mroe Bree on 24/08/2008 04:44:46 You overlook the necessity to grind and grind and grind PVE till you barf to 'unlock' some game content. R&D agents, lower sales taxes, jump clones and no reprocessing loss for instance. If CCP didn't intend to create a PVE game they sure as !$!#@$ hid it well with all the mandatory grinding content. And being as PvE and PvP are two completely unrelated activities by the time you get around to being a competent PvE grinder PvP looks scary, unprofitable and unnecessary. Especially with all the nanopoofters+falcon recon gangs roaming round going 'lolimmune' to everything but a few non-PVE fits and gang compositions. Which the typical 6 month to 2 year old carebear can't use.
Pant Alones Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.24 07:33:00 - [66] Originally by: Mroe Bree Edited by: Mroe Bree on 24/08/2008 04:44:46 You overlook the necessity to grind and grind and grind PVE till you barf to 'unlock' some game content. R&D agents, lower sales taxes, jump clones and no reprocessing loss for instance. If CCP didn't intend to create a PVE game they sure as !$!#@$ hid it well with all the mandatory grinding content. And being as PvE and PvP are two completely unrelated activities by the time you get around to being a competent PvE grinder PvP looks scary, unprofitable and unnecessary. Especially with all the nanopoofters+falcon recon gangs roaming round going 'lolimmune' to everything but a few non-PVE fits and gang compositions. Which the typical 6 month to 2 year old carebear can't use. the typical young carebear should at least be able to fly a t1 frigate to tackle . Being able to fly a nanohac or a falcon is completely not necessary to be able to have fun and be effective PvPing. All of these new players that get scared of low/nullsec and pvp by the newb corp chatter need to go to the videos forum and watch a few good PvP movies to see how fun it can be ------------------------
Kage Psychodin Caldari The Empire Nation Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.24 08:34:00 - [67] Originally by: Pant Alones Originally by: Mroe Bree Edited by: Mroe Bree on 24/08/2008 04:44:46 You overlook the necessity to grind and grind and grind PVE till you barf to 'unlock' some game content. R&D agents, lower sales taxes, jump clones and no reprocessing loss for instance. If CCP didn't intend to create a PVE game they sure as !$!#@$ hid it well with all the mandatory grinding content. And being as PvE and PvP are two completely unrelated activities by the time you get around to being a competent PvE grinder PvP looks scary, unprofitable and unnecessary. Especially with all the nanopoofters+falcon recon gangs roaming round going 'lolimmune' to everything but a few non-PVE fits and gang compositions. Which the typical 6 month to 2 year old carebear can't use. the typical young carebear should at least be able to fly a t1 frigate to tackle . Being able to fly a nanohac or a falcon is completely not necessary to be able to have fun and be effective PvPing. All of these new players that get scared of low/nullsec and pvp by the newb corp chatter need to go to the videos forum and watch a few good PvP movies to see how fun it can be sadly it is though. Someone in a junk Tech 1 frigate cannot compete unless in massive numbers. (and sadly, massive numbers are not as fun as so many people seem to claim it to be.) On the topic of nerfing level 4s, lets see. The older the game gets, the more firmly seated one becomes with their riches, income source as long as it is not mission running, be it trading, blue prints/invention, salvaging, mining, 0.0 ratting, moon resources, or even R&D agent work. Of all these, missions are not chance. they are not risk or market based. They are a solid pillar of income for new players to get a foothold. That is why they cannot change. EVE is simply too old, too cemented for many people. CCP really does worry about how age affects power, and they try their hardest to keep things in line. (I'd definitely bet THAT was the cause of the original capital ship nerf that was canceled, and the nano nerf that is currently postponed. Missions, especially level 4s provide solid income that let newer players get their foot in the door and maybe 2-3 solid well fitted ships going before they start the endless loss cycle that exists in EVE. And to capt. branko, Ask yourself this to get the answer of if enemies coming back the next day with a ship you can't inflict loss to prevent the creation of is okay (Yes, long winded I know) - Assume the position of the person who lost their ship. How long before you get a new ship and start having fun again that its worth it to keep subscribing at 8-15 million isk an hour? Now how long before you get a new ship on 1-5 million isk an hour? Another one bites the dust.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2008.08.24 08:44:00 - [68] Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 23/08/2008 19:39:23 Originally by: Le Skunk So what is end game? Pos bashings, alliance politics and lag fests? SKUNK End game is about influencing as many people as possible, either through subterfuge, leadership, destroying alliances, creating empires, constructs of epic scales, or just blowing stuff up. On the other hand, mission runners probably view ownership as the shiniest ship they can get a hold of, with the shiniest fittings, as their end game. The end game in eve is what you want it to be, and that will probably change over your time playing... I feel that EVE is out to destroy the "end game". Think about it. Just because you now have this area of space doesn't mean that another can not just come along and take it. EVEs end game to me is never ending, and what is awesome is there is no "I'm higher level than you... get out" It's about proper strikes at opportune moments to take the space that you need. /want. How many people can you personally get to fight for you to take over what is needed in this game to succeed? That is what makes alliances like BoB great, and I am no BoB member. But I see what they do, and acknowledge it as a good thing. See I can be diplomatic if I want to, but in the end business runs this game. Sure you could stay in the basic corp that you start out in and run level 4s with the best of them, maybe PvP with all the proceeds in low sec, but EVE is not about building,flying or beating other spaceships in player verse player encounters. It is about building your own nation. Your own empire. That is EVEs end game, always twisting always in jeopardy.
nahtoh Caldari StrikerCorp	Posted - 2008.08.24 09:51:00 - [69] Originally by: Schalac Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 23/08/2008 19:39:23 Originally by: Le Skunk So what is end game? Pos bashings, alliance politics and lag fests? SKUNK End game is about influencing as many people as possible, either through subterfuge, leadership, destroying alliances, creating empires, constructs of epic scales, or just blowing stuff up. On the other hand, mission runners probably view ownership as the shiniest ship they can get a hold of, with the shiniest fittings, as their end game. The end game in eve is what you want it to be, and that will probably change over your time playing... I feel that EVE is out to destroy the "end game". Think about it. Just because you now have this area of space doesn't mean that another can not just come along and take it. EVEs end game to me is never ending, and what is awesome is there is no "I'm higher level than you... get out" It's about proper strikes at opportune moments to take the space that you need. /want. How many people can you personally get to fight for you to take over what is needed in this game to succeed? That is what makes alliances like BoB great, and I am no BoB member. But I see what they do, and acknowledge it as a good thing. See I can be diplomatic if I want to, but in the end business runs this game. Sure you could stay in the basic corp that you start out in and run level 4s with the best of them, maybe PvP with all the proceeds in low sec, but EVE is not about building,flying or beating other spaceships in player verse player encounters. It is about building your own nation. Your own empire. That is EVEs end game, always twisting always in jeopardy. Its a end game, but even the devs have said that Eves end game is wahat you make it. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.24 10:04:00 - [70] Originally by: Cpt Branko At any rate, if you are not funding PvP out of your high sec L4 missions, why should you care if you get, say, 30% less income in high-sec? If you ARE using it to compete with other players (which trade/etc does too, btw), then don't you think you've got a unwarranted significant advantage in both profit and safety over your low-sec dweller trying to make ISK the same way? No. They are in no way kept away from the same founding I am using. If they choose not to use it it is their choice. The point it that high sec missions are a way to found your activity. They require time and some moderate risk. If you really want people to feel the loss of the ships they are using, removing insurance from all players (with it accessible only for the first months of a account) will be much more efficient. Loosing hull of a T1 ship cost almost 0 isk today, so even if level 4 were removed it will change very little for people that have already the isk to buy the first BS. The difference in cost between platinum payout and a new BS can be recovered in 1-2 hours mining, so it will change nothing. But you will not like that as it will change your bottom line this time, not that of some other player. Instead removing level 4 will change a lot for people that have just reach the level do do them and have barely the capital to think about buying the better ships. Very easy to say "nerf the others, keep me as I am", so for me insurance removal would be a no issue, even if I lose some more isk when my ships are destroyed in 0.0 it will change little. Removing level 4 in high sec will change little for you, a lot for player building up a capital for whatever use they want.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.08.24 10:23:00 - [71] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine 1. Remove level 4s and 5s altogether. 2. Make level 3s finite. You can only run 100 of them then you're done. 3. Make FW pay out big in both isk and "booty" (faction items) for every net system gain each week. By big I mean 100s of millions per net system gained for a fairly active player. 4. Profit!! Will never happen, but would be uber cool if it did. Would send a metric ton of PvP fit ravens screaming into low-sec. 3. has potential. Maybe not in that exact format, but.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.08.24 10:35:00 - [72] Edited by: Steve Hawkings on 24/08/2008 10:35:39 This is the daily dimwit post, where someone of lacking intelligence decides that we only want you in low sec so we get more targets.......... get a brain
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.24 11:23:00 - [73] Originally by: Ki An [qDon't jump in on a discussion without reading up on it first. The questions you ask have been answered over and over again in pretty much every thread about this subject. The only answer I've seen to the "why" is "because" or "risk vs reward". The people raising the "risk vs reward" apparently think that "risk" means, "walking into my gate camp" where reward means, "dropping nice modules for me to sell right back to my victims." Perhaps you can spell it out in black and white, or provide links to the answers to these questions: 1) How does my hisec mission-running affect your losec piracy? (when giving your answer, just consider that the nice named modules that are dropped by your victims come from somewhere, and that somewhere is not manufacturing). 2) Where does someone with low skillpoints get the money to fund their FW habit? Mission running pays higher than hisec mining. Trading is a game for high skillpoint characters focussed in that area. Manufacturing is the same - until you have the ability to research blueprints to 100% efficiency, you will have a hard time competing in the marketplace. With the minerals market and the salvage goods market taking a huge hit - mostly due to people turning to level 4 missions as a source of income - the level 4 mission "problem" is really going to sort itself out anyway, isn't it? Then there's also the issue of where people get the ISK to buy the GTCs that you sell :)
Another Forum'Alt	Posted - 2008.08.24 11:41:00 - [74] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine 1. Remove level 4s and 5s altogether. 2. Make level 3s finite. You can only run 100 of them then you're done. 3. Make FW pay out big in both isk and "booty" (faction items) for every net system gain each week. By big I mean 100s of millions per net system gained for a fairly active player. 4. Profit!! Will never happen, but would be uber cool if it did. Would send a metric ton of PvP fit ravens screaming into low-sec. Why not just directly shut TQ down and close CCP?
Furion iV Minmatar Shadow Incursion Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.24 11:43:00 - [75] I may have missed someone else proposing this but, won't the pirates simply camp the entry stargates from highsec? The best quality agent for the Federation Navy is in Jel and the Jel stargate in Egghelende is camped most of the time. Surely it would just not be viable to move the agents/missions to low sec unless they increased the amount of agents tenfold to stop all agent/mission systems being very active with pewpewers. Just my thoughts.
Tenoh	Posted - 2008.08.24 11:45:00 - [76] i think ill just remove EVE from my computer cause of all the pvpers, Hope CCP is happy.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.24 11:53:00 - [77] Originally by: Tenoh i think ill just remove EVE from my computer cause of all the pvpers, Hope CCP is happy. Soooo… let me get this straight: "Onoz! PvP game is full of PvPers! I quit!" Is that the gist of of it?
Furion iV Minmatar Shadow Incursion Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.24 11:58:00 - [78] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Tenoh i think ill just remove EVE from my computer cause of all the pvpers, Hope CCP is happy. Sooooà let me get this straight: "Onoz! PvP game is full of PvPers! I quit!" Is that the gist of of it? I do believe there is a thing called sarcasm.
Karentaki Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated	Posted - 2008.08.24 13:27:00 - [79] Oh look, a new and truly original thread about an important, and never before discussed topic! Thank you for bringing this to our attention! [/sarcasm] Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Kelli Flay	Posted - 2008.08.24 16:30:00 - [80] Originally by: Steve Hawkings Edited by: Steve Hawkings on 24/08/2008 10:35:39 This is the daily dimwit post, where someone of lacking intelligence decides that we only want you in low sec so we get more targets.......... get a brain Dude, if you ever want to meet me in low sec, just name the time, place and ship types. All you do is run your mouth. You shouldn't be commenting on other's intelligence tbh.
Kwedaras Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.08.24 16:40:00 - [81] Originally by: Mara Rinn Originally by: Ki An [qDon't jump in on a discussion without reading up on it first. The questions you ask have been answered over and over again in pretty much every thread about this subject. The only answer I've seen to the "why" is "because" or "risk vs reward". The people raising the "risk vs reward" apparently think that "risk" means, "walking into my gate camp" where reward means, "dropping nice modules for me to sell right back to my victims." Perhaps you can spell it out in black and white, or provide links to the answers to these questions: 1) How does my hisec mission-running affect your losec piracy? (when giving your answer, just consider that the nice named modules that are dropped by your victims come from somewhere, and that somewhere is not manufacturing). 2) Where does someone with low skillpoints get the money to fund their FW habit? Mission running pays higher than hisec mining. Trading is a game for high skillpoint characters focussed in that area. Manufacturing is the same - until you have the ability to research blueprints to 100% efficiency, you will have a hard time competing in the marketplace. With the minerals market and the salvage goods market taking a huge hit - mostly due to people turning to level 4 missions as a source of income - the level 4 mission "problem" is really going to sort itself out anyway, isn't it? Then there's also the issue of where people get the ISK to buy the GTCs that you sell :) risk - getting blown up reward - isk now if you are smart you will figure it out yourself. if not - please read other threads. Answers to your questions were answered countless times.

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