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Connner JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:07:00 - [31] You want battlegrounds and consentual PvP. You can find both in this game. Eve has nonconsentual PvP and no battlegrounds. This discussion is based on the participants accepting this basic premiss. No, I don't. I want EVE, and I like it just the way it is right now. I have absolutely zero complaints with it. I like the sandboxyness of it. Wow, is too structured and boreing.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:10:00 - [32] Originally by: Connner You want battlegrounds and consentual PvP. You can find both in this game. Eve has nonconsentual PvP and no battlegrounds. This discussion is based on the participants accepting this basic premiss. No, I don't. I want EVE, and I like it just the way it is right now. I have absolutely zero complaints with it. I like the sandboxyness of it. Wow, is too structured and boreing. But you want a structured Eve that is similar to WoW. According to your posts you want your PvE and your PvP separate. That means nonconsentual PVP. That means battlegrounds. That means similar to WoW which you find boring. Think about what it is you're asking for. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Trathen Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:11:00 - [33] I like this perception that at least half of the EvE-O posters are pirates at the other end of every single gate to low-sec, just waiting to stab you in the face... and posting here while waiting. Haven't been to low-sec lately? _
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:11:00 - [34] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Kelli Flay a) Make it impossible for pvp noobs {FW's intended audience} to participate since they will be losing a lot of ships nad missions are their income. Well, that's a good thing for starters. After you engage and kill off a good part of a FW blob, seeing them back tommorow because ship losses don't matter is extremely annoying. So if people return fast it is annoying because they don't feel the damage you do, but if they don't return low sec is a wasteland and something should be done to repopulate it? Try to clear yourself what you want.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:15:00 - [35] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Kelli Flay c) Will just make people quit the game. Nope, it won't. If you make 30% less ISK, people who're after profits will simply go to places with higher profits. People who're after safety will stay in high-sec. Only people who think they should make top-notch ISK and be completely safe (and their safety has been increased recently with suicide gank changes - faster concord response, no insurance for gankers, etc) might quit. But that's like saying Pandemic Legion will quit altogether because of the nano nerf. Some might, sure, but it's a small percentage, and if you can't handle rebalancing of your playstyle, you don't belong to EvE anyway. So now a change depicted in a blog but not jet implemented change: "and their safety has been increased recently with suicide gank changes - faster concord response, no insurance for gankers, etc" has somewhat become a fait accomplit alredy affectuing Tranquility? When was that patch implemented? Or you are not playing currently and have dreamed that the change is already on?
Connner JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:16:00 - [36] But you want a structured Eve that is similar to WoW. According to your posts you want your PvE and your PvP separate. That means nonconsentual PVP. That means battlegrounds. That means similar to WoW which you find boring. Think about what it is you're asking for. Hello?! I like eve the way it is right now, this very second. (aside from a few lag issues) The game is perfect for me and is exactly what I want. So with that being said, are you trying to tell me that EVE right now is similar to WoW? I think you would offend a few players with that logic.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:25:00 - [37] Originally by: Connner But you want a structured Eve that is similar to WoW. According to your posts you want your PvE and your PvP separate. That means nonconsentual PVP. That means battlegrounds. That means similar to WoW which you find boring. Think about what it is you're asking for. Hello?! I like eve the way it is right now, this very second. (aside from a few lag issues) The game is perfect for me and is exactly what I want. So with that being said, are you trying to tell me that EVE right now is similar to WoW? I think you would offend a few players with that logic. So, you oppose the upcoming changes to nanos and suicide ganking then? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:26:00 - [38] Originally by: Connner But you want a structured Eve that is similar to WoW. According to your posts you want your PvE and your PvP separate. That means nonconsentual PVP. That means battlegrounds. That means similar to WoW which you find boring. Think about what it is you're asking for. Hello?! I like eve the way it is right now, this very second. (aside from a few lag issues) The game is perfect for me and is exactly what I want. So with that being said, are you trying to tell me that EVE right now is similar to WoW? I think you would offend a few players with that logic. If one finds Eve Online perfect, it is obvious that one has not experienced much of the game. There is a great deal wrong with the game, including but not limited to, various elements of balance, income balance, Risk and Reward of Highsec vs Lowsec vs Nullsec, and there are a multitude of ways the game experience could be added to and made better. Missions are not supposed to be end game content. In fact, missions weren't even a part of the game when EVE Online launched. Missions are filler, not end-game content. I just wish the people who play the game for missions would realize that bad-guy-grinding in outer space wasn't supposed to be the fun part.
Connner JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:29:00 - [39] So, you oppose the upcoming changes to nanos and suicide ganking then? Yes and no, I would really rather they not change ganking or nanoing but if they do, I don't think it would bother me much. But if I had to vote on it I would vote to keep Nano and Suicide ganking as is.
Connner JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:31:00 - [40] Missions are not supposed to be end game content. In fact, missions weren't even a part of the game when EVE Online launched. Missions are filler, not end-game content. I just wish the people who play the game for missions would realize that bad-guy-grinding in outer space wasn't supposed to be the fun part. Who are you to dictate what others find fun? But just for the reccord I think missions are "end game". Missions to me are a nice safe way to keep the isk flowing to fund my true pursuits.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:36:00 - [41] Originally by: Evelgrivion Originally by: Connner But you want a structured Eve that is similar to WoW. According to your posts you want your PvE and your PvP separate. That means nonconsentual PVP. That means battlegrounds. That means similar to WoW which you find boring. Think about what it is you're asking for. Hello?! I like eve the way it is right now, this very second. (aside from a few lag issues) The game is perfect for me and is exactly what I want. So with that being said, are you trying to tell me that EVE right now is similar to WoW? I think you would offend a few players with that logic. If one finds Eve Online perfect, it is obvious that one has not experienced much of the game. There is a great deal wrong with the game, including but not limited to, various elements of balance, income balance, Risk and Reward of Highsec vs Lowsec vs Nullsec, and there are a multitude of ways the game experience could be added to and made better. Missions are not supposed to be end game content. In fact, missions weren't even a part of the game when EVE Online launched. Missions are filler, not end-game content. I just wish the people who play the game for missions would realize that bad-guy-grinding in outer space wasn't supposed to be the fun part. So what is end game? Pos bashings, alliance politics and lag fests? SKUNK
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:38:00 - [42] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 23/08/2008 19:39:23 Originally by: Le Skunk So what is end game? Pos bashings, alliance politics and lag fests? SKUNK End game is about influencing as many people as possible, either through subterfuge, leadership, destroying alliances, creating empires, constructs of epic scales, or just blowing stuff up. On the other hand, mission runners probably view ownership as the shiniest ship they can get a hold of, with the shiniest fittings, as their end game.
Kelli Flay	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:42:00 - [43] Originally by: Evelgrivion Missions are not supposed to be end game content. In fact, missions weren't even a part of the game when EVE Online launched. Missions are filler, not end-game content. I just wish the people who play the game for missions would realize that bad-guy-grinding in outer space wasn't supposed to be the fun part. Who said that missions are not suppose to be end game content and who said you HAVE to reach the end game? You do know what the term "sandbox" when applied to this game means right?
Connner JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:42:00 - [44] So what is end game? Pos bashings, alliance politics and lag fests? In my opinion, there is no defined "end game". I see EVE as a persistant world that is what you make of it. Find your niche and have fun. I like missioning and roaming pvp. And after reading a thread in the n00b forum, I might take a vacation and become a tourist for a bit.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 23/08/2008 19:39:23 Originally by: Le Skunk So what is end game? Pos bashings, alliance politics and lag fests? SKUNK End game is about influencing as many people as possible, either through subterfuge, leadership, destroying alliances, creating empires, constructs of epic scales, or just blowing stuff up. Does it say this in the manual? SKUNK
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:44:00 - [46] ≡v≡ has no endgame. Players may have personal ultimate goals, but that's about as far as it goes.
Connner JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:45:00 - [47] Originally by: Tippia ≡v≡ has no endgame. Players may have personal ultimate goals, but that's about as far as it goes. QFT!
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:47:00 - [48] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 23/08/2008 19:50:26 Originally by: Le Skunk Does it say this in the manual? SKUNK The manual doesn't matter, because it pertains to a game that no longer exists in that form. Eve is what you make of it. PVE however, is what CCP Makes of EVE. They are fundamentally different, as there IS an end to PVE. There is no end to PVP, whether you're fighting other players' ships or not.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.23 19:48:00 - [49] Originally by: Connner Originally by: Tippia ≡v≡ has no endgame. Players may have personal ultimate goals, but that's about as far as it goes. QFT! No end game or not - Mission runners doing lv4s need nerfing - risk vs reward. SKUNK
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.23 20:00:00 - [50] Originally by: Le Skunk No end game or not - Mission runners doing lv4s need nerfing - risk vs reward. As someone said in another thread on the topic, the problem with applying risk vs reward on missions is that it will always come out skewed. The risk in missions is, for all intents and purposes, zero, so it will always be unbalanced against everything else. A better question is: what level of rewards can we accept for a zero-risk activity?
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.23 20:12:00 - [51] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Le Skunk No end game or not - Mission runners doing lv4s need nerfing - risk vs reward. As someone said in another thread on the topic, the problem with applying risk vs reward on missions is that it will always come out skewed. The risk in missions is, for all intents and purposes, zero, so it will always be unbalanced against everything else. A better question is: what level of rewards can we accept for a zero-risk activity? Don't apply risk. Apply 'effort'. How much work do you have to do to stay in operation? Do you or your alliance mates protect that system from enemies? Are you unable to operate if a hostile comes into your zone (either because they will kill you, or because you cloak and hit a safe spot and wait them out)? As there is no 'risk' in hisec, there is also no 'effort'. Heck, you don't even have to out of your way to obtain equipment (unlike losec and nulsec, where someone has to arrange logistics). I believe hisec missioning should be on par with hisec mining. Both are starter professions that can be carried to a 'higher level' (mining equates to deep space mining in capital sized ships, missioning equates to deep space complex running in capital-sized ships). Both should have relative payout. Both have 'secondary' professions which branch out of these (mining->manufacturer, missioning->combat pilot). I guess the biggest downside is that combat pilots (PvPers, if you will) have no real source of income. But in the same breath, manufacturers have many dependencies on their money, as well. Both are far more PvP oriented than their starter professions. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.23 20:45:00 - [52] To sum up pretty much all carebear posts on this forum: You dont have any real arguments to keep lvl 4 missions in high sec like they are so you just resort to ad hominem attacks and threats to quit the game with your 20 alts and your 100000 other carebear friends. Vote against the nano nerf!
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:14:00 - [53] I think Ruze and Cpt Branko gave out some class A responses that I completely agree with. If High sec missions were balanced with high sec mining and ratting, why would that make missions not fun anymore? Either missions are fun if you get 5M or 30M or you are doing it for isk and not for fun. As to who are we to tell people how to play the game...uhh well I am echoing the old CCP Developer posts that want people to move out into low sec and null security space in which they consider the full sandbox game is at. The CCP Developers have stated that they don't want to shove people out the high security door but want encouragement to go to low/null sec space. If you can make more money and have all the blanket advantages of high security space (which are a lot of advantages you take for granted) then there is no encouragement for people to go to low/null security space, hence the problem with missions. I also find it strange that people say missions are fun? Orly? They are the same scripted missions. Everytime. You can use one ship and complete every mission with the same setup. You use no tactics. You do not explore. You simply shoot the red crosses and don't shoot the trigger rats, but hey even if you shoot the trigger rats you can still warp out. Try WoW, EQ2, CoH, or any other PvE based MMORPG, those missions are much more fun than any mission in EVE. I played WoW in beta + for a good year, can you really compare say Black Rock Spire to any mission in EVE? Come on, missions in EVE are ridiculously boring and if you really like them so much then you will be blown away by WoW. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:27:00 - [54] I like doing missions. I like collecting LP and isk, buying new ships. Been doing them for a long while, and sometimes I catch something new I hadn't seen before. Doing complexes used to be fun, too (even though I have a horrible average with them, as far as getting my ship popped goes). Need to try some new ones. On the same breath as those arguing against being 'forced' to go anywhere, I agree there, too. You don't know how much I agree. See, I've been to nulsec. And you know what? I didn't like it. Losec was the most interesting to me. Small gang fights, lots of mission time, even ran a few patrols and helped out with a mining op or two. 100-man corp with some 'allies' also in our system. It was a wonderful time. Golden years and whatnot, all that phsycho-babble. But I don't think you can convince new players ... players who are new to the game and haven't 'figured it out' ... to enter losec and nulsec at ALL, unless you can use some means to convince them, such as profit. Too many of these players are brainwashed in the starter corps that PvP is evil, going into losec is instant death at the hands of hundreds of pirates, and nulsec is nothing but being farm food for some super-rich CEO or becoming fodder for a supposed BoB war train. And don't tell me that this doesn't happen. I've made several new alts lately, in many starter corps. This kind of preaching is rampant. And as long as players have everything they need to entertain them for several months in hisec, why should they ever venture out and prove the speakers false? Why should they ever learn any different, if they can do the most profitable thing for a new player to do (missions), and collect and earn and grow and build. All the while repeating the errors of their peers, repeating their lies and remonstrations? And lets not forget, the longer a player stays in one place, the harder it is to move. Do you know how much players collect? Extra ships, extra modules, skillbooks and loot and junk that'll never be used. In three months of hisec living, a new player can acquire a freighter's worth of goods. What reason has he of leaving then? None. Instead, he has even more reason to stay. So if hisec mining and missioning was readjusted to be on par with one another, and at the same time, nearly half the income of similar activities in losec, which is half again similar activities in nulsec ... you have reinitiated a series of progression, where a new player seeks the ability to grow and advance ABOVE the means of his current position. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.23 23:18:00 - [55] Originally by: Ruze E) There's precedence for these changes. Due to many mission buffs (adding salvage, adding LP stores, reducing the difficulties of level 4's, etc), hisec missioning is more profitable than it ever was. At one time, it was just a little better than hisec mining. During that same time period, hisec was home to traders and beginners, and some old fogeys who refused to endanger themselves. Honestly, you can't make a player put himself into danger. But the sure lack of high-end profit in hisec (beyond trading/manufacturing) meant that many players moved at a very young age to losec. Imprecise, Ruze. Mission were little better than mining because omber and kernite mining was way better than today. You could get 15 millions hour mining them while the missions were giving 20 millions hour to a average player (as today). True some mission were harder, but other were easier and faction drops were more common (several missions had a chance of a faction drop from building or some special ship, today those drop are almost non existent). So mission rewards, on average have stayed the same (salvage was introduced but loot quantity and quality reduced, then T1 items size increased, making it longer to loot) while mining rewards was reduced by the influx of middle end minerals from the drone regions.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2008.08.23 23:35:00 - [56] Originally by: Kelli Flay We will be hearing the term "Ludicrous speed" for the next five years as well because a dev coined it. THEY'VE GONE PLAID!!! No dev from EVE coined the term "ludicrous speed." Whether that was sarcasm or not never disrespect the greatness that is a Mel Brooks movie.
nahtoh Caldari StrikerCorp	Posted - 2008.08.23 23:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Ruze E) There's precedence for these changes. Due to many mission buffs (adding salvage, adding LP stores, reducing the difficulties of level 4's, etc), hisec missioning is more profitable than it ever was. At one time, it was just a little better than hisec mining. Hate to break it to you but lvl 4 missions used to be much more profitable than they currently are...when they first came out a lvl 4 guristas extravagza used to net about 40 to 50 mil in bounties alone (maybe more)... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
nahtoh Caldari StrikerCorp	Posted - 2008.08.23 23:58:00 - [58] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 23/08/2008 19:39:23 Originally by: Le Skunk So what is end game? Pos bashings, alliance politics and lag fests? SKUNK End game is about influencing as many people as possible, either through subterfuge, leadership, destroying alliances, creating empires, constructs of epic scales, or just blowing stuff up. On the other hand, mission runners probably view ownership as the shiniest ship they can get a hold of, with the shiniest fittings, as their end game. The end game in eve is what you want it to be, and that will probably change over your time playing... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.08.24 00:21:00 - [59] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 24/08/2008 00:24:18 I think you'll find if anyone is really interested in easy kills they'll just go to highsec and wardec your corp. Much easier and much more successful. As certain people have been proving. We all know lowsec could be megacyte candymountain and a lot of highsec dwellers still wouldn't dream of jumping in thinking "But I might lose my 3 billion isk navy raven if go down there". If noobs go to lowsec or not is of no consequence, the problem is natural selection, of why someone who's willing to step outside the box and try something a bit risky stands little chance of making any headway in his pursuits then simply just grinding level 4 missions till he drools out the side of his mouth. Of couse I'm talking about lowsec here. Some of you may say, well what about nullsec? People in the big alliances out there farm and mine away without a care in the world. Hell we've going to have Titan fleets soon etc they earn such ridiculous isk etc... I totally agree, the thing is though I'm still waiting for CCP to get off the their bums and nerf the onipotent local tool. Quite frankly there are certain people in nullsec alliances that no better if not worse then some PVE only people in highsec. Let's see how safe the little sods feel with no local in the middle of their alliance space then eh?
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.24 00:41:00 - [60] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/08/2008 00:51:12 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/08/2008 00:48:24 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/08/2008 00:44:03 Originally by: Venkul Mul So if people return fast it is annoying because they don't feel the damage you do, but if they don't return low sec is a wasteland and something should be done to repopulate it? Try to clear yourself what you want. I never wanted more people in low-sec, and I sure as hell would like being able to financially damage the damn FW blobbers so they keep out. Only idiots (or people who totally don't care about ISK and have L4 mission alts) want to fly in systems with 30+ people in local. Piracy is most (read: only) profitable in places with a low (well, larger then 0, but smaller then, say, 10) population count and in small engagements. Regardless of what I want or don't want, don't you think attrition warfare should be a valid strategy in EvE? Or losses should have little meaning, and you should be able to keep on throwing ships at a target? Should high-sec players (or people with high-sec alts) have a advantage over people operating in low security space in terms of how much they can bring to combat? Think about this. There's Ruze's thread where a lot of people say they do L4s to fund their PvP and they also say the lose a lot of ships. As a pirate, if I lose lots of ships I'd be out of the business. People with L4 mission access are not out of FW / etc for any significant amount of time when they lose lots of ships. At any rate, if you are not funding PvP out of your high sec L4 missions, why should you care if you get, say, 30% less income in high-sec? If you ARE using it to compete with other players (which trade/etc does too, btw), then don't you think you've got a unwarranted significant advantage in both profit and safety over your low-sec dweller trying to make ISK the same way? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

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