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Seara Arrodan
Caldari
Honourable East India Company
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Posted - 2008.08.24 03:53:00 -
[1]
Managing corporate income is of vital importance to the long-term survival of any corporation. Eve gives this ability to Missioning and PvP corporations in the form of the corporate tax. The tax is automatically levied on any bounty over I believe 30,000 ISK and any mission reward. Life for the Mining Industry Corporation CEO is far from this easy as this tax is not levied on any sale of items. This causes the CEO to rely on the honor system which ultimately fails as members forget to pay the tax, make math errors, or just plain avoid the tax by design which forces the CEO to make big lists and spread sheets of who mined when and for howling and how much to ensure proper payment. Such micromanaging prevents corporations from spreading out to other regions or if key people are not on-line more or less shut down. My question is why does the CEO not have the option to levy a sales tax? Why is the corp. tax not automatically applied to sales of goods?
CEO Honourable East India Company
The superior pilot uses his superior reasoning to avoid situations where he will be required to use his superior skills.
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M'kie Zeletta
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Posted - 2008.08.24 04:04:00 -
[2]
If it automatically taxed sales this would result in all market traders not being able to function in a corp with any tax, perhaps instead of a sales tax, a refinery tax would be more appropriate.
Say 5% of refined materials are stored in the corp hanger?
The other option would be to allow the corp to add a sales tax, but again, this would cause big problems for traders, as it doesnt really reflect mining, just market activity.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.24 11:39:00 -
[3]
The thing about an NPC tax, is the tax is actually less than it makes out to be, you get x% on bounties or mission rewards, but not loot or mission bonuses. So overall you are getting less %. To a trader, they may buy an item for x isk, and sell it for 1.1x isk. Their profit is 10%, but if your tax is 10% they get nothing, because the automated tax would have no way of determining the actual profit, it would simply be taking isk from the sale price which is many many times the profit.
The long and short of it is that corp tax doesn't work very well in any corp structure where members gain their income from sources outside ratting. For new corps you can offer refinery services, and for newer players this is a good option as they don't have to train the skill themselves. But for older players they probably have the skills themselves and will resent paying any tax. In the end you can pretty much forget about any automated tax for larger corps and simply scale back what you can promise in return. In the end a good corp will make more (in fun and profit) from players participating in activities together then it ever will from just taking an arbitrary amount.
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Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.08.24 20:45:00 -
[4]
1. Put up a POS with a refining array.
2. Force your corp members to refine at pos or be kicked
3. ???
4. Profit!
Or, you could simply offer an attractive enough price to your miners and fund the corp via some sort of win-win manufacturing and logistics strategy. Just a thought.
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Duncan Bannatyne
The Sky Is The Limit
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Posted - 2008.08.24 21:45:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Duncan Bannatyne on 24/08/2008 21:49:22
I think it's pretty good there is activities in which you cannot tax your members on.. means 95% of the CEO's who are running a corp to leach off there members can't get fat off certain popular activities.
Edit: for people like me who has int he past turned over billions a week i certainly wouldn't want me CEO taking a cut from those proceeds.
You have to earn the right to get my money, not just get it by default.
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
The Border Patrol
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Posted - 2008.08.24 22:39:00 -
[6]
50 mill per month or be damned, this is all you can do without a private outpost
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.25 03:35:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Seara Arrodan
My question is why does the CEO not have the option to levy a sales tax? Why is the corp. tax not automatically applied to sales of goods?
Here's some reasons why. If I mistakenly buy a skills book that I already have and decide to put it back on the market at .01 ISK below what the NPCs charge, I can expect to lose ISK (sales tax, brokers fees, price lower than I paid). Do I really want to pay a corp sales tax as well?
Or if I buy a ship and fly it around for a week and decide it's garbage (who hasn't done that??? - honestly) - I've already got fees and charges, I don't need the corp to be charging me tax as well. If it's going to cost me that much, I might as well pop it for insurance - do you now impose a tax on insurance payouts.
Or, I buy 3 copies of Gallente Drone Spec for 4m ISK each and as a favour decide to sell 2 of them to corp mates at cost.....does corp tax make sense here?
You can't just assume your situation is the same as everyone else's. Everyone has different requirements and CEOs need to think about how they impose taxes thoughtfully and carefully.
______________________
Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
Riffler
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Posted - 2008.08.25 08:50:00 -
[8]
The answers given above are right. A corp tax on sales would destroy the profit margin for miners, traders and manufacturers. I seem vaguely to remember corp tax did originally apply to sales before this was realised and it was removed.
Anyway, if you want to make money off your non-combat members, you need to come up with your own way of doing it. When I was involved in the running of a mining corp, I was able to set things up so the corp could buy ore and minerals off its members at 5% above market prices, use the minerals in manufacturing and still turn a profit. However, the amount of admin and grunt work involved turned me off, and any local competition could make such a system unworkable (it's also open to fraud). In addition, it meant I was making the corp money when I could simply have been buying the minerals myself on the market and making myself money.
You could demand weekly or other regular corp days when all members are required to mine solely for the benefit of the corp wallet, or charge members a fee per hour they spend mining.
With the information available through the full access API, another option is also available - it should be more or less possible to come up with an automated accounts analysis program that will turn the API data into a tax assessment, though I'm not aware of anyone having attempted this.
Of course, none of these options really give the members anything they couldn't get without belonging to your corp. Your challenge is to identify what your corp provides to its members that they couldn't get elsewhere, and charge them for it.
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Karanth
Gallente
Eve's Brothers of Destiny
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.08.25 09:24:00 -
[9]
Set a refining tax of whatever, set separately from the other one, and have all minerals over a certain minimum go to deliveries for the corp.
And yes, I am a miner.
---
Wheel of Whineage |
Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Empire Mining and Trade
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Posted - 2008.08.25 13:24:00 -
[10]
How about using the rental system and bill members a monthly membership fee.
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Verena Intrefer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.25 13:34:00 -
[11]
Run corporate mining ops? Bring the collective yield to station, take x% for corp, and split the rest evenly between all participants to do with as they please. Everyone present contributes the same time, so it's pretty fair to split it evenly even if some have lesser mining ability or run haulers. If in low sec, guards can get a smaller share since they can get a bit of npc bounties if there are no player threats to deal with.
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Phaige NewFace
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Posted - 2008.08.25 17:06:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Clair Bear
Or, you could simply offer an attractive enough price to your miners and fund the corp via some sort of win-win manufacturing and logistics strategy. Just a thought.
We do this basically. Corp will buy mins from members at a % discount of market, non-negotiable. The catch is we build ever other ship for a dividend payment.
So one ship to corp for POS/BPO/High End min needs and one ship to get divided between share holders. As long as you make sure your miners are share holders this tends to work out (and works as incentive, since we only build when we have the mins, means more reason to mine faster to get paid). Granted the corp doesn't make bank off of the tax itself, but we get enough of a discount on the initial transaction (and the corp has shares for the sale) that the Corp makes out okay.
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Phaige
Minmatar
Reaver Construction Services
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Posted - 2008.08.25 17:07:00 -
[13]
silly alt took over 
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You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper! |
johnrogers
Gallente
The Flying Dutchmen
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Posted - 2008.08.25 18:24:00 -
[14]
If you sucked a dime out of every dollar(isk) a person made you corp membership would be you and your alt. If you want to fill the corp wallet some do 100% corp mission days a coupple times a month. Just for those days set corp tax at 100%. Lvl for missions will be done in less than 20 min in most cases. and a couple hrs will get you at least 200 mil for the day.
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ingenting
20th Legion
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.25 19:10:00 -
[15]
miningbuddy
/thread
__________
Quote:
Welcome to EVE, remember to insu *BAAOOM*... Told you, newb.
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Vyktor Abyss
IONSTAR
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.26 01:03:00 -
[16]
Something I wanted to try when I was a CEO but gave up my corp roles was using contracts.
I guess it still uses the honour system though. I got to agree though, mining in generally need work - perhaps a miner role and some snazzy corporate interface showing contributions from members etc.
But I don't see such development even happening soon(tm) given CCP's recent progress.
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Tradkil
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Posted - 2008.08.26 20:59:00 -
[17]
Originally by: ingenting
miningbuddy
/thread
Seriously Google miningbuddy. It should solve your problem.
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Reithan
Caldari
Dead 2 Rights
TransWarp Ventures
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Posted - 2008.08.26 21:25:00 -
[18]
The Journal is the answer.
Have it so the existing corp tax system goes away and just have it levy a tax weekly (or daily or monthly or whatever) on:
[Wallet Balance From end of Tax Period] - [Wallet Balance From beginning of Tax Period]
voila.
Oh, and positive numbers only. So you don't levy any tax against members who are already in the hole.
There'd be ways to exploit it, sure:
moving you money to a bank alt
doing all your purchasing right before tax time
etc
But, the corp would be able to track who's consistently being taxed for 0 or low amounts over time and inquire as to why.
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Reithan
Dead 2 Rights
TransWarp Ventures
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Posted - 2008.08.29 19:41:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Reithan
/thread
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Grandis Fustis
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.08.29 19:52:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Grandis Fustis on 29/08/2008 19:52:33
My corp pirates and we do tax too much but we dont ask to get rich from our members just to help keep the corp hanger full of t1 goodies and rent payments on office's. So being a ceo does not make you rich from your corpies. But remember the ones that kick some up to you here and there. then randomly boot some guy thats seems to be a drain on the corp more then an asset
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.29 20:51:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Reithan
There'd be ways to exploit it, sure:
There in lies the problem, it's no better than an honesty system. It's never going to work either because people will just buy something before the tax is due etc :o There is no real way of determining how much money someone has made from things other than bounties without a very complex calculation in order to be accurate. Such calcualtions are really beyond the scope of what the game can provide.
It's up to each corp to decide if a member is valuable and contributing, it's also up to members to decide if the corp is doing enough for their contributions.
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Stonie Bandit
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.30 07:22:00 -
[22]
In my corp, we encourage people to donate what they don't use.
Currently we still have tax on the mission runners (but intent to bring that to zero)
For each value of 10.000 isk the members recieve a point.
Each member will build up a percentage in poits, which will be related on how much pay out they recieve from sales.
It is a time consuming proces, but a fair system, where nothing is manditory.
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Salpad
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.02 10:22:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Stonie Bandit
In my corp, we encourage people to donate what they don't use.
Currently we still have tax on the mission runners (but intent to bring that to zero)
For each value of 10.000 isk the members recieve a point.
Each member will build up a percentage in poits, which will be related on how much pay out they recieve from sales.
It is a time consuming proces, but a fair system, where nothing is manditory.
I have thought about a similar system for the corp I plan on starting eventaully.
Corp members can donate a variety of listed items in specific quantities, and get Merit Points for doing so. They can donate ores, minerals, ISK and POS fuel, and at specific Merit Point values, you rise in Corp Rank.
Beyond donations, Merit Points can also be earned by participating in corporate missions or corporate mining operations.
My hope is that there will arise a spirit of competition where corp members try to donate more.
Of course the corp also basically has to be a good place to be in, helpful and friendly, and making ressources available to the members (e.g. research labs in the POS, and maybe getting free Freighter service from the CEO's Charon), with some ressources limited based on Merit Rank.
I do worry about it being too bureaucratic, though...
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Makko Gray
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Posted - 2008.09.04 14:41:00 -
[24]
I'd have thought as a mining corp your often group mining - surely all you need to do is take 5-10% of what you mine for the corp and split the rest.
What with group mining generally being so much more profitable anyway eveyone will still end up with a good share (some better than they would otherwise).
Or you could work on some sort of employee system - whereby all members have to supply a certain amount of ore each month to the corp and the corp pays them a set wage out of the profit. The profit from the ore pays the wage and you able to see who's pulling their weight. This way doesn't offer much incentives to your employees in itself though as they could probably make more money selling the ore themselves. You'd have to combine it with manufacturing or something else to be able to pay a good enough salary and still make a profit.
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Quinton McTish
Citizens Coup Network
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Posted - 2008.09.04 19:48:00 -
[25]
Yea. Unfortunately the corp tax thing just doesn't work well across the board.
Your best bet is to just instate a weekly/monthly dues program.
Set up a system where each member donate a certain amount ISK or resources per period. It's simple and straightforward.
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Exco Executor
Caldari
Occam's Razor Combine
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Posted - 2008.09.05 10:37:00 -
[26]
To OP:
1. Set corp tax to 0%
2. Vote among members what is decent monthly membership fee?
3. Set one wallet division for fee collection, so you can easily track who paid or not.
4. Adjust monthly fee due any projects you may decide to go for.
Static membership fee favors more active members, and keeps corp lean from inactive fat.
Static membership fee treats equally all proffessions.
If CEO would be able to set some sort of sales tax, members would just do all trading with outside alts...
www.occam-razor.com
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Zoar'rak
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Posted - 2008.09.09 11:51:00 -
[27]
I'd agree with most of the posts, don't try to tax your miners.
We buy the ore/mins from our miners at close to market rates. We publish monthly financial statements showing that 95% of corp expenses is paying our miners for their ore.
We make our profit in hauling the ore to the best market (keeps the miners mining and not hauling) and manufacturing.
Personally I don't believe in any corp tax. on 1.5B+ isk a month in mining the 10% tax we have is a very small percentage of our income. If you're losing money, taxing your pilots won't solve the problem. You need to find where your losing isk. We've very strict in that we don't do anything that loses isk and no officers use the corp wallet as if it's their own.
If you find you need a quick burst of isk, for something like buying a corp POS. I fine the miners would rather do a one-time corp mining op to pay for it instead of paying a tax of low ore/min prices.
If you're interested, here's a link to our corp financials
-Z
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