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Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.26 11:52:00 - [61] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Hakkan Koftar What this boils down to is some misinformed players making some bad assumptions about low/null-sec space and their desire to enforce their preferred playstyle on others. 1) Nullsec is vastly more profitable than high-sec for a miner or a PvE (missioner/ratter) player. As a miner and ratter I am able to make twice the isk per hour in 0.0 than I could in high sec only a month or two ago. 2) Low sec has no value at all. Nerf high sec all you like you still won't get more players in lowsec. Primarily because lowsec is more dangerous than nullsec but also because it is less profitable than either option. Even with a 15% tax on highsec, lowsec will still suck and you will not find more people there. Any corps operating in lowsec, especially miners, are either naive or haven't been able to join a 0.0 alliance. So to sum up, in order to get more players in lowsec, you need to leave high-sec alone and address the problems of inherent danger in lowsec. Until lowsec is safer than 0.0 it's going to be empty. Where I disagree with you, is that a) I don't think the majority of hisec players are playing in hisec to avoid PvP, but instead, I think that a large portion of hisec players are simply alts and jump clones of those living in nulsec and losec. There are also many hisec individuals who live in hisec for the SAKE of PvP, be it wardecs, suicides, or FW. As well as traders and manufacturers, producers. b) I don't think that you can boost losec without in turn boosting nulsec, as these two are fairly balanced in profit scaling. Boosting both would have the same effect as the tax, especially if the boost was high enough to allow a player to compensate for that lifestyle. c) I believe the inherent problems with security in losec should be solved by PLAYER actions, and not CCP. Especially considering that yes, losec missions ARE more profitable, but without a real industrial base (due to mineral imbalance, etc), there isn't much call to even move into losec out of hisec. And without giving all industrialists a reason to leave (i.e. higher profit margins, or fixing mineral balance again), you cannot have a more secure losec. Maybe an insta-jib to -10 for a player that kills another player, with a potive sec rating, in low sec. Then move all the missions to low sec. Risk vs. Reward
eXtas Atomic Battle Penguins	Posted - 2008.08.26 12:04:00 - [62] andabout lowsec... it will allways be a crappy place for anyone but pirates :P 0.0 is a lot safer then lowsec, there you know who is hostile and not.. in lowsec anyone will atack you :) --------
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.08.26 12:04:00 - [63] 15% tax doesn't seem excessive and does deal solely with profitability. Probably shouldn't apply it to rank newbies though.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.26 12:21:00 - [64] Originally by: Davina Braben 15% tax doesn't seem excessive and does deal solely with profitability. Probably shouldn't apply it to rank newbies though. I do kinda agree there. Either it shouldn't apply, or maybe level 1 missions could be boosted to help compensate. Of course, as a beginning player, we're all broke, but I sure as heck felt more broke two+ years ago than starting up a new player now. The market is so low, you can afford alot within a short week of missions, and they even give you junk when you do the tutorial missions. So I'm not sure if that 15% tax would affect the new playerbase anymore than it affected those of us who played many years back. If we could do it with outrageous prices, can't the new players do it? Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Alannis Gallente The Plantation	Posted - 2008.08.26 13:24:00 - [65] If you are not making more money in 0.0 than high sec then you are doing something wrong. Many people (myself included) have lived in 0.0 and find it pretty dull. There are lots of reasons for finding it dull and there are many other threads covering that. But it's 95% dull followed by 5% fun. 0.0 is pretty safe. If you don't know where the reds are 5 jumps before they get near you and you are in alliance space then you are not reading intel channels/corp chat/local gossip in blue systems. High Sec tends to provide more team effort ISK making and missions provide more variation that warp to belt > kill rat > repeat. And it's not bad ISK, however it's not as profitable as ratting in any decent (0.0) system. Most people play this game (indeed like the players of most other games) to accumulate things (Skill Points, ISK, Items, Ships - whatever). I would guess a large % of the player base plays less than 10 hours a week. So why on earth should those people who do not share your goals be forced out of being a carebear, or have the current system taken away from them? Ahhhh. Because you want some more stuff to shoot out that doesn't involve a blob. Gotcha. Forget I said anything, (Yes I did read the entire thread).
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.26 13:35:00 - [66] Although I am all in favour of a lowsec boost I'm not sure if this is the way to do it. The resulting nerd rage would be quite intense. Lowsec needs a boost. I remember 1 1/2 - 2 years ago lowsec was full of people, or certainly had a lot more hanging around. Yes I want more targets. I also want more fights. Leave the '0.0 is for people who want fights'. Everytime I have gone roaming there recently the systems are either full of hangar queens or blobs. I can think of one 'balanced fight' right up until another 2 Falcons decloaked on us (this was a 5 vs 5 engagement with the baddies already having 1 falcon on station). But I digress. A lowsec boost and a slight hisec nerf might encourage people to come and play in lowsec, then again it might not. I'm not after solo players. I'm after mid sized empire corps who want to foster a bit of community spirit and get their members working together. I want to try and disrupt a mining op in a belt only to be chased around for half an hour. Where I live there used to be 2-3 defence channels and you'd get a response from the locals if you got something. Now... nothing, it's mostly pirates shooting other pirates. Suggestions: Remove drone missions from hisec. Stop lowsec agents giving out missions in neighbouring hisec systems. Give all hisec level 3/4 agents a finite number of missions to hand out per hour. Maybe a 5-10% Concord tax, 15 is a little harsh. Boost lowsec/0.0 mission rewards by 10-20% Boost lowsec ore (lets see some low end high ends in there) or at least spawn more high quality mining sites. Boost lowsec belt rats, up to 650k battleships. Add more production and research slots to lowsec stations Assumption of Risk
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2008.08.26 13:54:00 - [67] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler Boost lowsec/0.0 mission rewards by 10-20% Boost lowsec ore (lets see some low end high ends in there) or at least spawn more high quality mining sites. Boost lowsec belt rats, up to 650k battleships. Add more production and research slots to lowsec stations IMHO, the main reason people don¦t go lowsec is the high chance of getting ganked. Boost rewards all you want, people wont go there. If you increase number of lowsec systems thought, pirate/system ratio decreases and lowsec feels "safer" Until that happens your only shot at bringing people lowsec is to make it "safer". Claim a lowsec constellation and gank any other pirate to oblivion, protect your hunting grounds and let carebears slowly come by. Gank one every once in a while.... --- "I live in Los Angeles, where driving is non-consensual pvp" - Arric Rohr
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.26 13:58:00 - [68] As has been pointed out many times, if your goal is to get players into losec, the simple and easy solution would be to remove local. Easier than trying to balance rewards/effort/etc. Luckily, this discussion isn't about getting people into losec or out of hisec. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.26 14:09:00 - [69] Originally by: AleRiperKilt Originally by: Larkonis Trassler Boost lowsec/0.0 mission rewards by 10-20% Boost lowsec ore (lets see some low end high ends in there) or at least spawn more high quality mining sites. Boost lowsec belt rats, up to 650k battleships. Add more production and research slots to lowsec stations IMHO, the main reason people don¦t go lowsec is the high chance of getting ganked. Boost rewards all you want, people wont go there. If you increase number of lowsec systems thought, pirate/system ratio decreases and lowsec feels "safer" Until that happens your only shot at bringing people lowsec is to make it "safer". Claim a lowsec constellation and gank any other pirate to oblivion, protect your hunting grounds and let carebears slowly come by. Gank one every once in a while.... This is exactly the sort of wrong attitude. If you want a piece of lowsec get together with some friends (this is an MMORPG after all) and go and drive the pirates out. You have sentries on your side (no small ships to bother you). If you fight hard enough then the pirates will: Stop bothering you, strike a deal or move out. A bit of community spirit goes a long way. Assumption of Risk
Zen Mehari	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:02:00 - [70] Edited by: Zen Mehari on 26/08/2008 15:03:50
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:09:00 - [71] Edited by: Matalino on 26/08/2008 15:09:55 Originally by: Dave Davies The Concord Tax would be a 15% tax leveed on all mission rewards and pirate bounties paid out in systems where Concord operates, as well as on all minerals refined in those same systems. Maybe there could be a skill that reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the Concord Tax, but not Accounting -- IMO it would need to be something like a Rank 8 trade skill that required a certain level of Corp Management as a prerequisite in addition to the usual Trade prereqs. Problem 1 - Your proposed reduction in payouts in high sec could be equated to an increase in payouts in low sec. So your plan assumes that 17.6% increased rewards would encourage people to move to low sec. That isn't going to get a dedicated mission runner to leave high sec. It wouldn't even be a concideration. Choice run a mission in a disposable setup in low sec and get 17.6% more reward (assuming you don't lose it to pirates) or run missions 15% faster in high sec using an tweaked out setup. What do you think people will still do? Problem 2 - Essential skills become standard. If there was a skill that increases mission payouts as you are suggesting it would become as standard as the learning skills. All that skill would do is act as a time sink for new players. Mission rewards would then be even heavier biased in favor of those who focus on running them in high sec. Your tax would hit heaviest on those who are new to the game or who only run missions in high sec occationally. Those who are dedicated to cashing in on the high sec rewards would simply suck up the time sink with the standard amount of whining, but would otherwise be unaffected. There are really only two ways to get people out of high sec: - Remove high sec completely - Remove ALL content from high sec
Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:11:00 - [72] Oh wow. Yet another "nerf highsec" thread. As you so very well put, this is a perceived problem. I have yet to see any reason beyond "risk vs reward" that supports a nerf. Eve is not "risk vs reward", its "effort vs reward". Missions take time, Mining takes time, everything takes time. Thats what determines your pay rate, not the level of risk. As I said before in another thread exactly like this one: If Eve was based on "risk vs reward", people in lowsec would be billionaires. That is not the case however.
Sanzorz Amarr EVEfan.dk	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:12:00 - [73] Originally by: Ruze As has been pointed out many times, if your goal is to get players into losec, the simple and easy solution would be to remove local. Easier than trying to balance rewards/effort/etc. Luckily, this discussion isn't about getting people into losec or out of hisec. What kind of nonesense is this? Being able to see if local is populated or not as a carebear is the only reason to go there. If you can't see if there are any people, you'll be in for a very bad surprise if you're probing or scanning for people. A very bad move for newer players for sure.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:16:00 - [74] for the love of God, when will the whiny morons finally get a life and understand that the residents of high sec that are not interested in any pvp will NOT, EVER, be forced to chose between poverty and being a suicide monkey. GET OVER IT FOR GOD'S SAKE. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:18:00 - [75] This is just another stupid "nerf high sec rewards" thread. Theres is no difference between a 15% tax and 15 percent lower rewards. Dont nerf high sec - instead buff low sec. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:19:00 - [76] Originally by: Aarin Wrath Oh wow. Yet another "nerf highsec" thread. As you so very well put, this is a perceived problem. I have yet to see any reason beyond "risk vs reward" that supports a nerf. Eve is not "risk vs reward", its "effort vs reward". Missions take time, Mining takes time, everything takes time. Thats what determines your pay rate, not the level of risk. As I said before in another thread exactly like this one: If Eve was based on "risk vs reward", people in lowsec would be billionaires. That is not the case however. Are we counting the effort it takes to keep yourself secure and flying in losec and nulsec? The effort your corpmates or alliance members (if you have any) have to go through in order to keep your space free of interlopers? The effort involved in transporting things to and from market zones, in acquiring replacement drones and ammo, in replacing lost ships and burnt-out modules? In terms of effort, the 'effort' involved in accomplishing the act is minimal for hisec mission running. This of course is subjective to the individual, of course, as some players find it a real 'effort' to sit at the keyboard and mine for hours on end, while others see it as no effort at all. 'Effort', just as 'risk', is still an iffy way of rationalizing why something should or should not be changed. Truth be told, missions are very little effort the more skilled you become, and yet they yield higher profit because you can do them more efficiently. It's almost as if effort has an inverse effect on monetary income. Look at the low 'effort' professions. Trading. Manufacturing. Moon mining. Also note that these are by and far more profitable. Luckily, this thread is about allowing payers who rely on hisec for security the BALANCE of also paying for that security. As do players who expend effort in nulsec and losec, who spend valuable time and effort, and in some cases isk, to ensure the same level of security as hisec. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:20:00 - [77] Originally by: Sergeant Spot for the love of God, when will the whiny morons finally get a life and understand that the residents of high sec that are not interested in any pvp will NOT, EVER, be forced to chose between poverty and being a suicide monkey. GET OVER IT FOR GOD'S SAKE. Sir, do you recognize that you are 'whining' in this comment? Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:27:00 - [78] The fundamental flaw in much of the 'buff lowsec' reasoning is the underlying premise that all of eve must be made equal. I'm fine with variety. You go to 0.0 to blob the living crap out of each other and mine POSes with dreads, highsec to grind while asleep & suicide miners and finally you go to lowsec for hard mode ganks. What's wrong with that?
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:32:00 - [79] Originally by: Clair Bear The fundamental flaw in much of the 'buff lowsec' reasoning is the underlying premise that all of eve must be made equal. I'm fine with variety. You go to 0.0 to blob the living crap out of each other and mine POSes with dreads, highsec to grind while asleep & suicide miners and finally you go to lowsec for hard mode ganks. What's wrong with that? Need more hisec systems. Tad bit overcrowded. Need more hisec agents, too. And if we mission runners can make this kind of cash, minerals in hisec need to be balanced up. An hour mining the best minerals in hisec should net the same as an hour fighting in the best level 4, including salvage/lp/bounties/loot. There's a thousand ways this game could go. No one way is right, just more commonly accepted. Great, ain't it? Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:34:00 - [80] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Sergeant Spot for the love of God, when will the whiny morons finally get a life and understand that the residents of high sec that are not interested in any pvp will NOT, EVER, be forced to chose between poverty and being a suicide monkey. GET OVER IT FOR GOD'S SAKE. Sir, do you recognize that you are 'whining' in this comment? Well, I was thinking of it more as an angry rant, but yeah, you got me. Still, I get really irritated by folks that just day in and day out, seem to have an almost primal sexual urge to get CCP to force empire dwellers into suicide monkeys. I like a game where folks can choose their own direction. Its that simple. And I don't apply that just to "MY" style of play. Game depth for the win. I MEAN THAT. And it "requires" a variety of viable and meaningful play styles. PvP is the Heart of Eve. But a heart by itself is just a quivering hunk of meat rapidly dying due to lack of oxygen. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Traidor Disloyal I Am Not A Lawyer	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:45:00 - [81] Originally by: Dave Davies The Concord Tax would be a 15% tax leveed on all mission rewards and pirate bounties paid out in systems where Concord operates, as well as on all minerals refined in those same systems. You know what I hate more then anything else in this world? Taxing me to encourage me to behave another way. You can shove those taxes where the sun don't shine. Notice, no smile face. --------------------------------------------- Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot
SPIONKOP Caldari PIZZALUVERS	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:46:00 - [82] So you want to get more people into low sec or 0.0 space. The only reason I can think is that you want more prey to kill? I don't do alliances. 10% Corp tax then the alliance screws you on refine tax and you are also expected to pay inflated prices for supplies. Thats if your not camping a gate, or locked in stations. So I guess that rules out 0.0 space. As for low sec. Why should I fund the pirates with ransoms and loot from my ship as it either blown up by the gate gamp or probed out from the mission areas. Sure the mission could make me 20mil but why risk 10 times that in ships/implants. So I guess that rules out low sec. If Concord started taxing minerals then the seller would simply put the price up. Its the demand for minerals that sets the price. A refine tax will see fewer minerals on the market thus the price goes up. The seller makes the same ISK, its the buyer who will simply pay more. This will see all empire prices rise in line with the tax. Would miners flock to low sec. I think not. Hulks make nice easy prey. Whats the ransom on a hulk these days? 50mil? Give me a good reason to come to low sec and 0.0 space and I will look into it. Tax me in empire and I will pass the tax back on to the buyer. I make the same ISK, you pay more for the ships, mods, ammo, POS fuel etc. I enjoy my PVP on the market, its far safer. --------------------------------------------- Space For Rent. 100mil ISK/Week.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:51:00 - [83] Originally by: SPIONKOP So you want to get more people into low sec or 0.0 space. The only reason I can think is that you want more prey to kill? I don't do alliances. 10% Corp tax then the alliance screws you on refine tax and you are also expected to pay inflated prices for supplies. Thats if your not camping a gate, or locked in stations. So I guess that rules out 0.0 space. As for low sec. Why should I fund the pirates with ransoms and loot from my ship as it either blown up by the gate gamp or probed out from the mission areas. Sure the mission could make me 20mil but why risk 10 times that in ships/implants. So I guess that rules out low sec. If Concord started taxing minerals then the seller would simply put the price up. Its the demand for minerals that sets the price. A refine tax will see fewer minerals on the market thus the price goes up. The seller makes the same ISK, its the buyer who will simply pay more. This will see all empire prices rise in line with the tax. Would miners flock to low sec. I think not. Hulks make nice easy prey. Whats the ransom on a hulk these days? 50mil? Give me a good reason to come to low sec and 0.0 space and I will look into it. Tax me in empire and I will pass the tax back on to the buyer. I make the same ISK, you pay more for the ships, mods, ammo, POS fuel etc. I enjoy my PVP on the market, its far safer. I would like to not be so lonely. Here I am, out in losec, and nobodies around. A good corp would be nice, 20-30 other individuals who like to mainly do missions but are up for a good fight with a local pirate group now and again. Heck, I could even put up with a dozen industrialists, as long as they keep their mining lasers pointed away from me. I do want kids one day. But targets? Ain't got no interest in targets, really, unless their the squishy-high-bounty-paying-NPC type. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Solostrom	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:56:00 - [84] no! When will you all get it through your heads. There are some players who simply prefer hisec. We will play the game we prefer. They can play the one they prefer. Unless you want to pay for their accounts.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.26 16:01:00 - [85] Originally by: Solostrom no! When will you all get it through your heads. There are some players who simply prefer hisec. We will play the game we prefer. They can play the one they prefer. Unless you want to pay for their accounts. Um. I'm so confused ... Who's proposing that you can't play in hisec? In fact, even from the avarice 'nerf hisec' crowd, it seems that the general consensus is to allow hisec to be SAFER, thus further preventing players from being the unwilling victims of PvP. So, who are you yelling at again? And which voices are you listening to? They tell me that I shouldn't listen to those 'other' guys, but sometimes they say funny things. Like to kill my dog. That was a great day ... Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Sanzorz Amarr EVEfan.dk	Posted - 2008.08.26 16:01:00 - [86] Originally by: Ruze I would like to not be so lonely. Here I am, out in losec, and nobodies around. A good corp would be nice, 20-30 other individuals who like to mainly do missions but are up for a good fight with a local pirate group now and again. Heck, I could even put up with a dozen industrialists, as long as they keep their mining lasers pointed away from me. I do want kids one day. But targets? Ain't got no interest in targets, really, unless their the squishy-high-bounty-paying-NPC type. A corp into lowsec might work out fine, but it still sucks if they pirate gang drops in and wtfpwnbbq your entire corp in one go. You've wasted time + alot of money and that can be morale breaking on many players that only play once in a while. These highsec threads only seem to target at the highskilled players playing EVE alot and rarely take notice of the casuals.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.26 16:17:00 - [87] Originally by: Another Forum'Alt What about if in 0.0, rat bounties were set at 2x the level of highsec, and because there is no CONCORD in 0.0, the cash for the bounties comes from the alliance who has sovreignty. Well - the rat hunters will almost all be members of that alliance. And where does the alliance get its money from? Right - it's members. So it would need to tax its members to pay the same amount back as bounties. Remove the effort and risk of rat hunting from the equation and it's still the same money. Concord doesn't like piracy wherever it happens. Whatever. It's a source of income. Otherwise there would be only ore and moons. Do you want all pvpers to a) start training for mining or b) come back to high-sec and vacuum what's left of rats? People, really, think about this. is the problem really a problem and does the solution really solve the problem. In this case the problem is imaginary and the proposed solutions don't work anyway. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.08.26 16:40:00 - [88] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler This is exactly the sort of wrong attitude. If you want a piece of lowsec get together with some friends (this is an MMORPG after all) and go and drive the pirates out. You have sentries on your side (no small ships to bother you). If you fight hard enough then the pirates will: Stop bothering you, strike a deal or move out. A bit of community spirit goes a long way. You are wrong on every level, and let me tell you why. First of all, pirates never go away. Unless you beat the snot out of them over and over and over. And when they do, another group just moves in. And even if you "strike" a deal with them. Odds are they wont honor it... Hello!?!? Pirates?!?!?!? I have played eve many years now. I have taken my sec of space, low sec, nullsec, and so forth. Lowsec was always a profit looser. always. every single time. I have YET to read a thread that I havent interpereted as a pirate whine about "omg pls nerf high sec cause I dont get to grief enough people. Force people to come to low sec so I can have some more lambs to slaughter!!! OMG OMG OMG CCP PLEASE!!!! They make too much money! OH HEY! Lets get rid of concord and high sec all together! Make it all lowsec/nullsec!!! That would be awesome!!!! please please please ccp do something to make life as hard as possible for the evil evil carebears, and as easy as possible for the awesome godlike pirates!!!! They dont desrve to play eve!!!! They are carebears and are obviously less of a person because they dont wanna PVP!!!!!!"
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.08.26 16:41:00 - [89] Edited by: Highwind Cid on 26/08/2008 16:45:06 Whoops messed up.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.08.26 16:45:00 - [90] Originally by: Dave Davies ... If the objective of this is to 'kindly push' people into low sec it ain't gonna happen. All that might happen is people go to the safest low sec, aka .5 and fill those systems up, assuming the tax is less as their are less of concord in lower sec spaces. But at the end of they day its an all or nothing situation. Either A) high sec people stay high sec or B) They leave. Going on a whim I'm gonna say CCP will stick with A as B isn't very profitable.

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