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Proposed: the Concord Tax

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Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.26 04:33:00 - [1] Ruze managed to pull this one out of his butt a couple days ago and I can't believe he didn't make a thread for it... so here it is. If it takes off I guess somebody can post it in the CSM forum but I figured I'd float it here first. The perceived problem: high sec pays too much. The natural activity of the market has made high sec ores more valuable than low- sec ores, and high sec mission running is lucrative enough that it allegedly attracts plenty of players (or their alts) from allegedly more valuable space. The last issue can be balanced by CCP intervention, the first probably shouldn't be -- or at least not directly. The proposed solution: tax incentives. In Real Life(tm) tax incentives are used by governments the world over to encourage all sorts of behavior, and CCP could probably use the same method to encourage activity in lawless space. But of course in order to offer a tax break you first have to implement a tax. Enter the Concord Tax (or, if you like titles, call it the Law Enforcement Funding Accord of the Second Yulai Convention -- lol). The Concord Tax would be a 15% tax leveed on all mission rewards and pirate bounties paid out in systems where Concord operates, as well as on all minerals refined in those same systems. Maybe there could be a skill that reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the Concord Tax, but not Accounting -- IMO it would need to be something like a Rank 8 trade skill that required a certain level of Corp Management as a prerequisite in addition to the usual Trade prereqs. The probable benefit of such a system is that it would make low sec activities inherently more valuable than the same activities in high sec, including mining (or at least refining) low- end ores; furthermore it would achieve that benefit without needing to shuffle agents around, adjust loot tables, rework ore distribution or any other hamfisted adjustments to basic game mechanics. In gameplay terms players could remain in high sec for a hassle- free but reduced income while it would actually be worthwhile (for a change!) for more ambitious players to pool their resources and try to tackle low sec. Comments/ flames/ arguments/ polemics anybody? I thought it was a decent solution myself. ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence.
Kyle Klanen	Posted - 2008.08.26 04:37:00 - [2] A system of increasing rates of NPC corp tax would be better 3 months = no tax, 6 months 5% tax, 9 months 15% tax and so on.
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.26 04:38:00 - [3] Originally by: Kyle Klanen A system of increasing rates of NPC corp tax would be better 3 months = no tax, 6 months 5% tax, 9 months 15% tax and so on. That's obviously worth talking about as well and I'd support it, but it's a different issue. Yours: people stay in NPC corps too long. Mine: high sec is too valuable. ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence.
Kyle Klanen	Posted - 2008.08.26 04:43:00 - [4] Originally by: Dave Davies Originally by: Kyle Klanen A system of increasing rates of NPC corp tax would be better 3 months = no tax, 6 months 5% tax, 9 months 15% tax and so on. That's obviously worth talking about as well and I'd support it, but it's a different issue. Yours: people stay in NPC corps too long. Mine: high sec is too valuable. True its a little off topic but a concord tax just complicates the issue with mechanics and other stuff when the mission rewards and ore yeilds in high sec could just be reduced by 15%.
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.26 04:47:00 - [5] Edited by: Dave Davies on 26/08/2008 04:46:44 Originally by: Kyle Klanen True its a little off topic but a concord tax just complicates the issue with mechanics and other stuff when the mission rewards and ore yeilds in high sec could just be reduced by 15%. Missioning could just get a simple nerf, it's true. Mining however, not so much. Mineral prices respond to things CCP does (like introduction of new ships, modification of drone loot tables etc etc) but are essentially the product of raw supply and demand and as such tend to fluctuate. Getting CCP to adjust ore yields every time supply and demand changes is pretty inefficient; adding an extra refine tax only in high sec ensures that there's added value in low sec mining regardless of the state of the market. ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence.
Xioden Acap Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons	Posted - 2008.08.26 04:57:00 - [6] Quote: The perceived problem Right there is the key word in this post I think. Did you seriously think this through 100%? It won't do anything more than get a small handful of people into low sec, and you can probably assume a good number of them won't stick around after they've lost ships and the "added reward of low sec" isn't justified at all by the added risk. So you'll have people earning 15% less, and due to refine tax, things will cost roughly 15% more. So now it takes longer to get the same things as before, so your going to have even less people willing to go try and leave high sec for kicks and giggles, at the very least they'll be doing it less often since they aren't as able to recoup their losses as quickly.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.08.26 05:06:00 - [7] 99% corporate tax in NPC corps. Permanently move a large quantity of High Sec ore out of High Sec. And then on top of that do what the OP suggests.
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.26 05:17:00 - [8] Originally by: Xioden Acap Quote: The perceived problem Right there is the key word in this post I think. Yeah, that was generous of me wasn't it? Just for the record, I'm by far not the only one thinking this. Quote: It won't do anything more than get a small handful of people into low sec, and you can probably assume a good number of them won't stick around after they've lost ships and the "added reward of low sec" isn't justified at all by the added risk. Believe it or not there are mining corps working low sec right now. Most of them only do it for grins though as it's hard to make it pay. If it was easier to make it pay then yeah, they'd be out there with a little more zeal. If it was easier to make it pay I'd be out there, in fact. Got locations scouted out, corpmates that would like to do it, the whole nine; I can't currently justify it though because business- wise it makes zero sense. OTOH you go to the S+I forums and you'll get guys e-peening about how they spent weeks training up Exhumers V for a measly 3% -- if you think those guys wouldn't try playing Let's Make A Deal with a pvp corp for 15% then I think you're thinking wrong. Quote: So you'll have people earning 15% less, and due to refine tax, things will cost roughly 15% more. So now it takes longer to get the same things as before, so your going to have even less people willing to go try and leave high sec for kicks and giggles, at the very least they'll be doing it less often since they aren't as able to recoup their losses as quickly. You might have fewer solo people going out there to play PvP for a day. You'll have the same number of idiots going out there trying to mine Jaspet in an Osprey as you do now. And I'm confident you'll also have more ambitious corps going out there to pursue Mammon -- which is what you want a lot more than day trippers to begin with, since ISK being at stake is how the game gets interesting. ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence.
Piper Halliwell Minmatar Phantom Squad G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.26 05:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 26/08/2008 05:08:56 99% corporate tax in NPC corps. Permanently move a large quantity of High Sec ore out of High Sec. And then on top of that do what the OP suggests. Slash and burn tbh. If they did that, then you couldn't scan out mission runners with your alt and warp to yourself and grief miners and such....you would have nothing to do anymore. -------------------- You've got a gun, I've got a gun, Let's write a tragic ending.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.08.26 05:26:00 - [10] Originally by: Piper Halliwell Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 26/08/2008 05:08:56 99% corporate tax in NPC corps. Permanently move a large quantity of High Sec ore out of High Sec. And then on top of that do what the OP suggests. Slash and burn tbh. If they did that, then you couldn't scan out mission runners with your alt and warp to yourself and grief miners and such....you would have nothing to do anymore. It'd be business as usual for that type of thing, except you'll find fewer people to do it to in High Sec.
techzer0 Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.08.26 05:38:00 - [11] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 26/08/2008 05:08:56 99% corporate tax in NPC corps. Permanently move a large quantity of High Sec ore out of High Sec. And then on top of that do what the OP suggests. Slash and burn tbh. Move the Ice. Kill the lvl 4 rewards in safe-space (I run 4s instead of ratting 0.0, less hassle, and I still disagree with it) etc etc... This is fun, more ideas to kill highsec ------------ CCP > Let's play the nerf a race game! Next up minmatar!
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.26 05:45:00 - [12] Percieved... So nerf Empire to make another area more valluable?? Why not call for a boost to that area instead, eh? Oh that's right, your not interested in a boost, just more targets, amirite? Quote: The natural activity of the market has made high sec ores more valuable than low- sec ores Wrong, I think. LowSec ore USED to be better off. That is untill CCP, in their infinite wisdom, decided to nerf mining by adding a whole region of rats that dropped mid end minerals. Mining by guns FTL. Not to mention the usual tons of useless missioning drops being churned up AND more Drones. But hey, I'd be down with a total removal of all t1 non named low meta crap loot drops in lvl 3's and 4's. I'd also be down with all Drones giving bounties and no minerals. Posting in a Nerf everyone else to drive em into LowSec or just because thread.
Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.08.26 05:50:00 - [13] Edited by: Mankirks Wife on 26/08/2008 05:51:05 Meh It doesn't matter what you do to highsec, lowsec will always be a (comparatively) barren wasteland, except for FW fleets which most pirates don't want to deal with. Tax NPC corps? OK.. now you have a million one-man corps. Nerf rewards a bunch? People will quit or join big 0.0 alliances (because they know pirates for the most part won't deal with blobs, bubbles, and other 0.0 hassles) Move ice out of highsec? Well, that'll get rid of most of the macros, but it'll also get rid of any research POS in highsec that's not being operated by a 0.0 alliance - nobody is going to mine ice in lowsec when they can mine better ice with a much higher degree of safety in 0.0. Less researched BPOs will mean less competition which will mean higher prices. Move ores out of highsec? Same thing - people will mine them in 0.0. Now you have to pay shipping costs to jump all the mins out, as well as less people mining, less minerals, higher prices. Now, I'm not saying there's no problem - obviously lowsec being relatively barren except for huge FW fleets and hungry pirates is a problem, but nerfing highsec is not the answer. ---
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.08.26 05:52:00 - [14] Taxing someone a lot of money if they're over 3 months old and in an NPC corp is something I thought of but never said much about. Originally by: Rawr Cristina (dreadnoughts are also possibly the most boring ship you could fly. It's like mining, without the part where you make money)
techzer0 Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.08.26 05:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Soporo Percieved... So nerf Empire to make another area more valluable?? Why not call for a boost to that area instead, eh? Oh that's right, your not interested in a boost, just more targets, amirite? Nullsec is fine tbh. It's sad to me that I can sit in highsec perfectly safe and make more money than in 0.0 as I don't have to deal with roaming gangs and afk cloakers. I can even grief the bears a little bit when they're dumb enough to aggro me in highsec. Lowsec on the other hand only rewards PVP, there is not much reason to go there since as you said, CCP in all their wisdom made the Drone regions. Then of course... there are the same quality agents that you can find in perfectly safe space, albeit laggy, but perfectly safe. So no reason there. So yes, I'd much rather see highsec nerfed than see lowsec/0.0 buffed to be more valuable. ------------ CCP > Let's play the nerf a race game! Next up minmatar!
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.26 05:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Soporo Percieved... So nerf Empire to make another area more valluable?? Why not call for a boost to that area instead, eh? Oh that's right, your not interested in a boost, just more targets, amirite? No, you are not "rite" and neither are you right for that matter. I'm as carebear as they come: I live in high sec, I'm training an invention alt, I've got a spreadsheet for my manufacturing sales and I run my own supply chain; I run missions, I live in high sec and so far I've racked up zero player kills. Sad, I know, but there it is and nothing lasts forever. The reason I want high sec nerfed instead of low sec boosted is that honestly it just seems too easy to get ahead in high sec. Quote: The natural activity of the market has made high sec ores more valuable than low- sec ores Wrong, I think. LowSec ore USED to be better off. That is untill CCP, in their infinite wisdom, decided to nerf mining by adding a whole region of rats that dropped mid end minerals. Mining by guns FTL. Not to mention the usual tons of useless missioning drops being churned up AND more Drones. Yeah, drone regions. Either way though, as it stands the taxing high sec would guaranteed make low sec more valuable than high sec without unintended consequences/ butterfly effect/ whatever. Quote: Posting in a Nerf everyone else to drive em into LowSec or just because thread. You're just the man of a million memes aren't you? ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.26 05:58:00 - [17] Check out the "what's your best pirate loot" thread and then tell that high-sec pays too much My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Xioden Acap Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Dave Davies Originally by: Xioden Acap Quote: The perceived problem Right there is the key word in this post I think. Yeah, that was generous of me wasn't it? Just for the record, I'm by far not the only one thinking this. The few thinking of it are almost elusively the ones who don't make up that 90% who never leave high sec. Quote: Quote: It won't do anything more than get a small handful of people into low sec, and you can probably assume a good number of them won't stick around after they've lost ships and the "added reward of low sec" isn't justified at all by the added risk. Believe it or not there are mining corps working low sec right now. Most of them only do it for grins though as it's hard to make it pay. If it was easier to make it pay then yeah, they'd be out there with a little more zeal. If it was easier to make it pay I'd be out there, in fact. Got locations scouted out, corp mates that would like to do it, the whole nine; I can't currently justify it though because business- wise it makes zero sense. Most wouldn't bother then either. Market factors will continue to decide the prices, which means it will still be more viable to mine in high sec. Then just spend an hour or so moving to and from low sec to refine. Guy to web/scout and if trouble arises freighter pulls a logoffski. 500k worth of ship risk to avoid the 15% CONCORD refine tax. Quote: OTOH you go to the S+I forums and you'll get guys e-peening about how they spent weeks training up Exhumers V for a measly 3% -- if you think those guys wouldn't try playing Let's Make A Deal with a pvp corp for 15% then I think you're thinking wrong. They're idiots if they make a deal with a pvp corp frankly, see above. Quote: Quote: So you'll have people earning 15% less, and due to refine tax, things will cost roughly 15% more. So now it takes longer to get the same things as before, so your going to have even less people willing to go try and leave high sec for kicks and giggles, at the very least they'll be doing it less often since they aren't as able to recoup their losses as quickly. You might have fewer solo people going out there to play PvP for a day. You'll have the same number of idiots going out there trying to mine Jaspet in an Osprey as you do now. And I'm confident you'll also have more ambitious corps going out there to pursue Mammon -- which is what you want a lot more than day trippers to begin with, since ISK being at stake is how the game gets interesting. So it boils down, once more, to pirates wanting easy kills to, as you put it earlier, "e-peen", when it comes to k/d ratio on their kill boards. Anyone who isn't an idiot padding some kill *****s kill count will be spending more time funding their pvp efforts, which makes it less accessible, which means less people out at any given time.
jrambox	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:09:00 - [19] Edited by: jrambox on 26/08/2008 06:10:27 HOW ABOUT THE OP PAYS ME HALF OF HIS INCOME AND SHUTS THE **** OFF. I happen to be a high sec player and I like it. Why should I be taxed by it. Why do you care if I make moneys in high sec? How does it affect your 0.0 life?
techzer0 Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:15:00 - [20] Originally by: jrambox Edited by: jrambox on 26/08/2008 06:10:27 HOW ABOUT THE OP PAYS ME HALF OF HIS INCOME AND SHUTS THE ** OFF. I happen to be a high sec player and I like it. Why should I be taxed by it. Why do you care if I make moneys in high sec? How does it affect your 0.0 life? The replies in these "nerf highsec" threads are the only reason I love these threads so much. At least I can be civil while b**ing and moaning every time someone suggests nerfing my nano-ness ------------ CCP > Let's play the nerf a race game! Next up minmatar!
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:17:00 - [21] Translation: Mommy, mommy, i suck so bad as a pirate I can't get any targets in lowsec. Tell CPP to nerf empire so I get more easy targets. Its too hard to hunt them right now because all the good pirates already killed them. --- "I live in Los Angeles, where driving is non-consensual pvp" - Arric Rohr
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Xioden Acap Most wouldn't bother then either. Market factors will continue to decide the prices, which means it will still be more viable to mine in high sec. Then just spend an hour or so moving to and from low sec to refine. Guy to web/scout and if trouble arises freighter pulls a logoffski. 500k worth of ship risk to avoid the 15% CONCORD refine tax. WTB 500k ISK freighter plz. And yeah, people would do that: mine in high sec, refine in low sec. But ore takes up a lot of space and that could get to be a real hassle; not to mention it would attract pirates to the hotter spots in droves. All told it wouldn't be even close to as efficient as what you have right now. Quote: They're idiots if they make a deal with a pvp corp frankly, see above. Nah. That 15% cushion gives you a lot more wiggle room for making a deal AND it keeps you from having to be one of the lemmings we just described. Quote: So it boils down, once more, to pirates wanting easy kills to, as you put it earlier, "e-peen", when it comes to k/d ratio on their kill boards. No. Nein. Nyet. Non. This is entirely incorrect. This is more about how royally **ed off I'm going to be in a few more months if I discover that high sec is the industrial "end game," I couldn't give two farts who gets more kills. Quote: Anyone who isn't an idiot padding some kill ***s kill count will be spending more time funding their pvp efforts, which makes it less accessible, which means less people out at any given time. ... which will in turn make "ships + mods at cost, free ammo, 5-6% of the take and a big bait blob on the starmap" a much more attractive offer than it is right now. PvP corps willing to fly top cover get their operating expenses cut and industrial corps willing to organize for unsafe space can pay for it AND be more competitive than high sec- only corps... unlike what you have now. ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence.
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:18:00 - [23] Modify drone alloys to refine into trit and moon minerals only -> lowsec minerals become more valuable, veldspar prices drop, many T2 stuffs become cheaper. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:18:00 - [24] Originally by: AleRiperKilt Translation: Mommy, mommy, i suck so bad as a pirate I can't get any targets in lowsec. Tell CPP to nerf empire so I get more easy targets. Its too hard to hunt them right now because all the good pirates already killed them. Come back when you finish up that remedial reading course, won't you? ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:21:00 - [25] Edited by: Glengrant on 26/08/2008 06:22:54 First you're trying to solve a non-problem and then you don't understand game design and player psychology. Taxing npc corps or forcing people out of it is useless. At best you force them into a zillion new player run mini-corps and at worst you drive them out of Eve. It's also a non-problem because why does it bother you in the first place that the majority of players prefers to hang around in empire? (no - I'm not among them - it simply doesn't bother me) Sometimes their reasons are faulty - but that doesn't matter - in doubt it's their problem not yours or mine. I find the whole idea of empire being low density pop and high sec crowded with people rather funny. It's true that many wait too long to go to 0-sec, but that's mostly because they are over-afraid of what's out there or have wrong pre-conceptions about the requirements. And why do so many people believe low sec has to become more popular? It's the convenient close to empire space where pirates try to catch uncautious noobs and gank them at gates. That's why it's not worth for most people to go there and I think it will always be that way - so don't worry about it. Many people actually like to do stuff like trading, mining and productions. [Shrug] - Again - why does that bother anybody? The reasons people don't go to low sec and beyond have only partly to do with isk. If that were all everybody who can count would already be out in 0.0 - because even if you're afraid of loosing ships - you make so much more money that you can afford to loose a lot of them. And CCP can't do many of the proposed "solutions" because "forcing" players out of the (relative) safety they want to have would only force them out of the game. The majority of people are in high pop density civilized empire space - exactly as one would expect when looking at the map. The brave and the foolhardy venture out into deep space. It would look rather silly the other way around. Also people would then whine about 0-sec being so crowded and not feeling like a frontier. And nobody in Jita to sell them new ships. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Dave Davies The Concord Tax would be a 15% tax leveed on all mission rewards and pirate bounties paid out in systems where Concord operates, as well as on all minerals refined in those same systems. Maybe there could be a skill that reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the Concord Tax, but not Accounting -- IMO it would need to be something like a Rank 8 trade skill that required a certain level of Corp Management as a prerequisite in addition to the usual Trade prereqs. High sec mining doesnt really need any nerf, and high sec missions need closer to 50% nerf in profitability. The tax idea fit better with npc corps to discourage people from staying there forever. Vote against the nano nerf!
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Dave Davies ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence. ? :-) --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: Dave Davies ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence. ? :-) ... and Glengrant gets a gold star for today. ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.26 06:41:00 - [29] I allready disagree with lvl 4 nerf, but why would mining in high sec need a nerf? And then we got a high sec lvl 4 mission nerf. In your idea it is 2 parts: 1. Bounties, 2. ISK reward. Now wouldnt it be much easier to lower the bounties and rewards of high sec missions (and if you really want lower the base refining ammount in high sec), instead of adding an entire new game mechanic that does exactly the same?
jrambox	Posted - 2008.08.26 07:49:00 - [30] Originally by: techzer0 The replies in these "nerf highsec" threads are the only reason I love these threads so much. At least I can be civil while b**ing and moaning every time someone suggests nerfing my nano-ness Well I am done being civil. Week after week people come and make up some bullshit excuse to nerf highsec or something else that they dont like. Just play the **ing game. If you dont like it gtfo of eve.

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