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Minmatar Weapons - Barely any cap used- Explain?

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Zambino	Posted - 2004.06.07 16:28:00 - [1] What penalty do minmatar suffer for the tradeoff of not expending any cap for firing their weapons?
Kate Libby	Posted - 2004.06.07 16:37:00 - [2] most of the times a rof that's like 15 sec. so for example with the 1400 mm's u should do around 300-400 damage shots to get even with any other gun. this will u only get with decent skills and the right ships (minmatar ships give u a bonus for the rof aswell damage. so in order to have a good rof and damage u should think of using projectile guns only on minmatar ships.,) Just checking my sexy tools... ASCI - Neutralized Ships [-]i¦m too old for th
AwiL	Posted - 2004.06.07 16:53:00 - [3] Edited by: AwiL on 07/06/2004 16:55:18 ummm, the rounds used by projectile weapons are similar to the rounds fired in RL guns. such as there's a primer and gunpowder. doesn't take much energy to pull a trigger does it? with a laser or hybrid energy is exerted to produce an effective ammo type. also, projectile weapons hold the least amount of rounds per turret, a 1400 holds at max what 16 with proton or plasma? a laser never has to reload and a 425 holds a ridiculous amount. edit: and that rof thing... "We gon' bring it to anyone that wants it...You want it? You gon' get it..."
Zambino	Posted - 2004.06.07 17:01:00 - [4] I dont mean in theory, i mean in gameplay balance wise.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2004.06.07 17:14:00 - [5] Energy weps - No ammo, 2 types of dmg, massive cap use. Hybrid weps - 3 types of dmg, uses ammo, medium cap use. Projectile weps - 4 types of dmg, uses ammo, no cap useage. Each type of weapon has a fast firing, short range, and a slow firing, long range. How fast / slow or short / long depends on the gun and the ammo used. Overall the DOT tends to be fairly similar, though u won't beat the 1400 for pure one shot gankage, or the hybrid blasters for DOT at close range. It all works out.
Viceroy	Posted - 2004.06.07 17:44:00 - [6] Quote: Hybrid weps - 3 types of dmg, uses ammo, medium cap use. Hybrids do 2 types of damage, kinetic and thermal. -
olyyy	Posted - 2004.06.07 18:06:00 - [7] Minmatar weapons also have a small amount of ammo loaded compared to other weapons (only 10 EMP L on a 1400mm) Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 )
flummox	Posted - 2004.06.07 18:26:00 - [8] Originally by: Viceroy Quote: Hybrid weps - 3 types of dmg, uses ammo, medium cap use. Hybrids do 2 types of damage, kinetic and thermal. depends on the ammo type, Viceroy. i think that the thorium charge gives the 3 types (thermal, explosive, and kinetic) all in one round shot (with a -12.5% range). the King of Heat, flummox there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
Zambino	Posted - 2004.06.07 19:20:00 - [9] I guess it just seems backwards to me. Why would the least amount of cap usage be the most versatile weapon? I would think that for having no cap, they would be lessened to only 2 damage types. And for having HUGE drain, id think that Amarr lasers would be the most versatile. What dont I understand?
Viceroy	Posted - 2004.06.07 19:23:00 - [10] Originally by: flummox Originally by: Viceroy Quote: Hybrid weps - 3 types of dmg, uses ammo, medium cap use. Hybrids do 2 types of damage, kinetic and thermal. depends on the ammo type, Viceroy. i think that the thorium charge gives the 3 types (thermal, explosive, and kinetic) all in one round shot (with a -12.5% range). the King of Heat, flummox Nope all Hybrid ammo do kinetic and thermal damage. -
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2004.06.07 19:37:00 - [11] mainly what you're missing from your picture are the ships they're to be mounted on; you're just considering the weapons themselves, which is probably why it seems odd. IIRC, the lasers may be swapped out on the fly with crystals as one changes ammo. So their strongest versatility is optimal range adjustment, which is no small factor. As for the ships themselves, the powergrid fitting requirements, CPU needs, and capacities of same on the ships is something you should look at, then you'll understand. Actually, all stats of the ship are a factor; more slots = more potential mods to a weapon (even with stacking penalties, there is a huge difference between none and two!), more WEAPONS and fitting to cram same, energy to use them or other systems, etc. A minnie ship seems to have all this "extra" energy it isn't using, but then you capitalize on speed and keep your MWD on.. also they do not excel in either shields nor armour but mix moderate strengths of both, which also you've probably nerfed with a MWD or hampered with a cap relay or three, so you'll be pumping that energy into tanking, or EW (including webbing/scrambling), etc... I'm sure by now you've realized energy management is key. Waiting 10 seconds to reload after 10 shots or because you need the opposite ammo type is no trivial thing neither. You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Smeppelio	Posted - 2004.06.07 19:43:00 - [12] Edited by: Smeppelio on 07/06/2004 19:45:06 Originally by: flummox Originally by: Viceroy Quote: Hybrid weps - 3 types of dmg, uses ammo, medium cap use. Hybrids do 2 types of damage, kinetic and thermal. depends on the ammo type, Viceroy. i think that the thorium charge gives the 3 types (thermal, explosive, and kinetic) all in one round shot (with a -12.5% range). the King of Heat, flummox Thorium Charge L: 20 Kin, 16 Therm, -12,5% range, - 35% cap Thorium Charge M: 10 Kin, 8 Therm, -12,5% range, - 35% cap Thorium Charge S: 5 Kin, 4 Therm, -12,5% range, - 35% cap --- -sland! Bezt Ý heimi! ...og smirnoff "Inside tank of fuel is not fuel, but love, above us, there is nothing above us, but the stars, above. 5, 4, 3, 1, OFFBLAST!" Elektronik - Supersonik by Zlad!
Dicky V	Posted - 2004.06.07 20:00:00 - [13] The reason is obvious... Minmatar ships have the smallest caps in the game. Small cap = small cap usage. Ships like the Apoc and Megathron have huge cap storage to make up for the cap usage of their weapons. It is balanced. If you wanted projectiles to use more cap then Minmatar ships would have to have a huge cap storage increase.
flummox	Posted - 2004.06.07 20:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Viceroy Originally by: flummox Originally by: Viceroy Quote: Hybrid weps - 3 types of dmg, uses ammo, medium cap use. Hybrids do 2 types of damage, kinetic and thermal. depends on the ammo type, Viceroy. i think that the thorium charge gives the 3 types (thermal, explosive, and kinetic) all in one round shot (with a -12.5% range). the King of Heat, flummox Nope all Hybrid ammo do kinetic and thermal damage. damn. sorry about that, man. i coulda swore it was 3 types? there must be a projectile type of ammo that does 3 types then. i know i saw it somewhere, i just thought it was thorium. argh... * flummox wipes rotten space-egg from his face. boy do i look stoopid(er)... the King of Heat, flummox there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
Zambino	Posted - 2004.06.07 21:25:00 - [15] I see, thank you for the insight.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.06.07 22:04:00 - [16] actually, the rate of fire on projectiles, coupled with high damage per shot makes up for its low ammo capacity mostly. 10 EMP large with 15 rof v 40 AM large with rof 5 is almost equal. The slight advantage of hybrids there is offset by the advanatage of doing amssive damage per shot with EMP large and the enormous falloff projectiles have (currently). Another remark in reaction to a post above. Someone remarked that all weapon types have slowfiring long range weapons and fast firing short range ones. This also is incorrect and does not apply to hybrids. 425 rails have a rof of approx 6 secs with good skills, neutron cannons have about the same. The difference is rather minimal. The main difference here is that neutrons have more damage but really short range (talking 15km and less only here), while rails have less damage but really long optimal range. So when compared, hybrids are better then projectiles at the extremely long ranges due to longest optimal range, projectiles are good at long and medium range, hybrids again take the cake on the very short range. In general the damage over time on hybrids is bigger, whcih offsets the fact projectiles dont use cap, making for better defensive options on projectile using ships. Factor in all ship bonuses and you've got yoursel;f a picture. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
DarkStar251	Posted - 2004.06.07 22:11:00 - [17] But how many blasterthrons use Neutrons? Neutrons use far too much grid, as a blasterthron needs an MWD as well, and work best when armour tanked. Shield tanked Blasterthrons tend to use mainly Ion blasters, and armour tanked ones Dual Heavy Ions, the dual heavies have a base RoF of 4.5 secs, and with skills and a couple of dmg mods, 7 of them tear most things apart in seconds.
Kate Libby	Posted - 2004.06.07 22:56:00 - [18] well then mixx a bit between neutrons and ions ;/ or pdu's Just checking my sexy tools... ASCI - Neutralized Ships [-]i¦m too old for th
Hellek	Posted - 2004.06.08 06:23:00 - [19] Edited by: Hellek on 08/06/2004 06:27:13 I also think that it would be totally wrong to nerf projectiles. Better thing would be reducing cap use on Lasers (a few Tachyon Beams use as much cap per second as a XL SB on autorepeat (with amarr bs lvl4 = -40% cap use + controlled bursts lvl4) and one Tach does less damage than one 425mm rail on a Megathron (so its no uber-gun either)). Lasers have the worst damage as there is no ship damage bonus on Apoc for example AND the highest cap use AND the lowest range. A lot of drawbacks, only advantage: don't use ammo
Algazara	Posted - 2004.06.08 08:07:00 - [20] "But how many blasterthrons use Neutrons? Neutrons use far too much grid, as a blasterthron needs an MWD as well, and work best when armour tanked." well Megathron has 15k base powergrid in the next update, thats over 18k with lvl 5 eng. You can Easily fit all nuetrons along with stabilizers etc..
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.06.08 09:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Algazara "But how many blasterthrons use Neutrons? Neutrons use far too much grid, as a blasterthron needs an MWD as well, and work best when armour tanked." well Megathron has 15k base powergrid in the next update, thats over 18k with lvl 5 eng. You can Easily fit all nuetrons along with stabilizers etc.. Not completely true, that's 18750-2000-1250=15500 for guns. Which ain't enough to fit all Neutrons by a long shot, it's enough for IONs though. But that's also a bit of topic ;) ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Del Narveux	Posted - 2004.06.08 09:47:00 - [22] Id be happier with projectile guns if they took a little more cpu. Would help balance em out a little for not having any other real deficiencies, and would add to realism as a big artillery cannon is gonna take a lot more fine-tuned aiming/loading than a railgun. _________________ [SAK] And Proud Of It! aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Shirei	Posted - 2004.06.08 10:00:00 - [23] Originally by: Zambino What penalty do minmatar suffer for the tradeoff of not expending any cap for firing their weapons? Mediocre damage over time. (The only exception to that being the Tempest, which has a decent DoT with Minmatar BS at 4 or 5, although still less than a Megathron with 425mm Rails).
Nicodemous	Posted - 2004.06.08 13:31:00 - [24] Edited by: Nicodemous on 08/06/2004 13:34:44 From my wonderful charts: http://www.thefbi.org/eve/images/heavydot.png As you can see: Beams have the highest DoT, highest activation cost, and the lowest ranges Hybrids have good range, midline activation costs, good DoT (highest DoT at low range) Projectiles have the highest range, lowest activation cost, and the lowest DoT. Image changed to a link, posting images is not allowed - Wrangler
Kate Libby	Posted - 2004.06.08 15:24:00 - [25] at this moment u can fire at 40-60km with an tempest and still u make between 200-400 damage shots on other BS (with all gunnery skills at least at lvl 4 and lvl4 minmatar bs). if u compare that to the damage at that range from other bs's then u can understand the slight advantage u got here. also when u are amor tanking u could go in short range and scramble or web. deu to the powergrid usage u can this way better armor tank then for example a megathron, however after all it's pretty close it all depends on wich way u builded your character skill wise. (when using a tempest u will need to train your cruise misile skill to a decent lvl aswell. while on a megathron u might want to use smartbombs to counter the misile attacks from your opponent) Just checking my sexy tools... ASCI - Neutralized Ships [-]i¦m too old for th
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2004.06.08 15:41:00 - [26] Originally by: Kate Libby at this moment u can fire at 40-60km with an tempest and still u make between 200-400 damage shots on other BS (with all gunnery skills at least at lvl 4 and lvl4 minmatar bs). if u compare that to the damage at that range from other bs's then u can understand the slight advantage u got here. Actually, after the next falloff nerf hits (-50% falloff for projectiles), this will no longer be the case, if it is at all. A megathron pilot with same skillevels migth do better damage with a comparable setup due to the much higher rate of fire.
Rover Vitesse	Posted - 2004.06.08 17:32:00 - [27] Problem with using Smartbombs as defence is when you're using the thongs HUGE ability as a drone deployer when up close and personal. Its a personal choice, but maybe the gamble with defenders actually working may pay off.
Pa1nbringr	Posted - 2004.06.09 01:55:00 - [28] Originally by: Kate Libby most of the times a rof that's like 15 sec. so for example with the 1400 mm's u should do around 300-400 damage shots to get even with any other gun. this will u only get with decent skills and the right ships (minmatar ships give u a bonus for the rof aswell damage. so in order to have a good rof and damage u should think of using projectile guns only on minmatar ships.,) heh they do alot more than 400 dmg if they have decent skills ---------------------- Fedaykin Naib > eh this is boring, think im going to go choke one out Pa1nbringr > sick Fedaykin Naib > lol
Frank Horrigan	Posted - 2004.06.09 04:36:00 - [29] I fly a tempest usualy with 3 gryo II's on with emp L ammo at optimal I get 350-400 dammage at 70km I get 250 dammage and I have about 8.19 dammage mod, 13 sec rof I also have mimnitar bs lvl 2, and large projectile traning 3 atm no wait it just finished.. time to log on anyway the guns are fine as they are... ive used 425mm's and the truuth is you dont need a good cap recharge to use those... just 3 cap relays is nessisary for me lasers ive used taycheons.. they use a lot of power, cap u need insane cap recharge to keep those running... might as well fill all low slows with cap relays to run any large laser guns... i used lasers from friglvl 1 to battle ship lvl 2 then hybrids then projectiles on apoc and now projectiles on my tempest... from my experence i just have to say lasers suck... bad... hybrids... i just dislike because they hit for crap... and projectiles are awsome because i get more dammage... AND more dammage over time... AND i dont have to change ammo for 0-80km dont tell me im wrong because i have tested it countless times Originally by: Oveur Originally by: Bhaal What has turned out better than expected? Everything. Remember, we're from Iceland. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This i
Falzone	Posted - 2004.06.09 06:37:00 - [30] tell you what they need to stop doing is balancing becasue people complain one weapon is more powerful than another so nerf that powerful weapon. projextiles have their tradeoffs as any other weapon. With these upcoming changes to the apoc its gonna be way overpowered so last thing they need to do is less tachyons cap use. CCP needs to stop listening to all the carebears complain that stuff is too powerful and spend their time adding content instead of just nerfing and boosting things.
crazy	Posted - 2004.06.09 06:47:00 - [31] You will get way more than 200-400 per shot with decent skills...everything at level 4+ you should have a roughly 11 sec rof and 9.4 damage mod...and do about 400 average damage per shot
vanBuskirk	Posted - 2004.06.09 22:28:00 - [32] No-one has mentioned yet that lasers cost absolutely NOTHING (isk and ammo) to run. You can fight all day with lasers and never run out. For ratting, especially, that seems like a pretty big advantage to me. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent". ----------------------------------------------
Meridius	Posted - 2004.06.10 00:30:00 - [33] Originally by: vanBuskirk No-one has mentioned yet that lasers cost absolutely NOTHING (isk and ammo) to run. You can fight all day with lasers and never run out. For ratting, especially, that seems like a pretty big advantage to me. Crystals cost 500k each, that can amount up to around 21mil for a full set. Lasers have crappy falloff, you have to swap crystals according to range. Don't tell me that swaping is instant. If you have 6 guns, you have to stop them all, then swap them one by one. An experienced pilot can keep most of the firing while swapping but it takes time to get used to. With projectile, all you really have to use is EMP, and ammo cost next to nothing... ________________________________________________________
Nikkoli	Posted - 2004.06.10 01:11:00 - [34] Slightly off topic, but why does everyone use EMP ammo in their projectiles? Sure, EMP works great against shields, but doesn't it suck hardcore against armor?
Pascal DuVont	Posted - 2004.06.10 01:29:00 - [35] actually EMP ammo has the 3rd highest damage to armor (at base resistance), and the highest damage to shields of all projectile ammo... it a mix of EM (20) kinetic(8) and explosive(16).
Nikkoli	Posted - 2004.06.10 05:04:00 - [36] Hmm.. I'm starting to wonder if my efforts for raising hybrid skills was a waste... the more I read this thread the more I am liking Projectiles. Are they any good on Gallente ships? (cannot fly anything minmat but L1 frig)
Frank Horrigan	Posted - 2004.06.10 05:42:00 - [37] Originally by: Nikkoli Hmm.. I'm starting to wonder if my efforts for raising hybrid skills was a waste... the more I read this thread the more I am liking Projectiles. Are they any good on Gallente ships? (cannot fly anything minmat but L1 frig) I used 6 on my apoc and it still worked better then lasers so I would have to say yes just use plenty of dammage mods to take that huge rof down about 10 seconds Originally by: Oveur Originally by: Bhaal What has turned out better than expected? Everything. Remember, we're from Iceland. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This i
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.06.10 06:06:00 - [38] Originally by: Nikkoli Hmm.. I'm starting to wonder if my efforts for raising hybrid skills was a waste... the more I read this thread the more I am liking Projectiles. Are they any good on Gallente ships? (cannot fly anything minmat but L1 frig) Not counting drones or shield/armour hardeners my thorax does 180+ damage per second, my Megathron does 300+ a second. There's no chance to ever come close to this kind of damage using projectiles on these two ships. Projectiles really need ship bonuses to get some nice damage from them. Only reason to use em on anything but Minmatar ships is when you need your cap for other things and are willing to sacrifice damage output for it. ( IMHO never a good idea ) ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Zambino	Posted - 2004.06.10 11:53:00 - [39] Just for the record, I was purely curious to understand the differences... Not calling for anything to be changed, just wanting to learn :)
GenocidalSpliff	Posted - 2004.06.10 13:00:00 - [40] All i can say is its going to be fun seeing apocs flying around with 8 425mm rails, armor tanked beyond belief, and still 10k grid to spare -_- 2004.08.22 21:03:00 combat Your Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon I perfectly strikes callonious [BSC], wrecking for 236.9 damage.
Galban Hunter	Posted - 2004.06.10 13:08:00 - [41] Next patch will introduce auto-reload for guns. This kinda makes your point of 10sec reload time moot for lowest cap usage. Also Projectiles ARE the only guns to do all 4 dmg types, Lasers and Hybrids are stuck with just 2. -------------------------------------------- [2005.02.08 13:58:16] Your Mega Beam Laser II perfectly strikes Sansha's Beast, wrecking for 709.6 damage.
AwiL	Posted - 2004.06.10 17:17:00 - [42] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Nikkoli Hmm.. I'm starting to wonder if my efforts for raising hybrid skills was a waste... the more I read this thread the more I am liking Projectiles. Are they any good on Gallente ships? (cannot fly anything minmat but L1 frig) Not counting drones or shield/armour hardeners my thorax does 180+ damage per second, my Megathron does 300+ a second. There's no chance to ever come close to this kind of damage using projectiles on these two ships. Projectiles really need ship bonuses to get some nice damage from them. Only reason to use em on anything but Minmatar ships is when you need your cap for other things and are willing to sacrifice damage output for it. ( IMHO never a good idea ) i bet i could get 300 dmg/sec in a rifter man. in a phoon with 425 auto's 4 launchers and drones i'd be well over 300dmg/sec...WELL OVER... "We gon' bring it to anyone that wants it...You want it? You gon' get it..."
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.06.10 18:36:00 - [43] Edited by: Gariuys on 10/06/2004 18:39:39 Originally by: AwiL Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Nikkoli Hmm.. I'm starting to wonder if my efforts for raising hybrid skills was a waste... the more I read this thread the more I am liking Projectiles. Are they any good on Gallente ships? (cannot fly anything minmat but L1 frig) Not counting drones or shield/armour hardeners my thorax does 180+ damage per second, my Megathron does 300+ a second. There's no chance to ever come close to this kind of damage using projectiles on these two ships. Projectiles really need ship bonuses to get some nice damage from them. Only reason to use em on anything but Minmatar ships is when you need your cap for other things and are willing to sacrifice damage output for it. ( IMHO never a good idea ) i bet i could get 300 dmg/sec in a rifter man. in a phoon with 425 auto's 4 launchers and drones i'd be well over 300dmg/sec...WELL OVER... Yes and I'm quite positive I can get WELL OVER 600 damage a sec on a megathron, I said MY setups do 180+ and 300+ so yes you could get 300+ damage on a megathron using projectiles thought we where talking about normal combat setups. Not instagib mode only usefull as a gate camper. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool

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