| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
   |
Posted - 2008.08.27 13:40:00 -
[1]
OK - wall of text that in a nutshell says "I'm a veteran eve player from way back and I'm angry about - something".
I guess it's up to our imagination to guess what the problem might be.
But here's the thing - I dont't see it. And I just happen to be one of those long-term guys too. So what did I miss?
First off - the idea that in 2003 there was a singular pool of players that like a challenging game is silly. I agree that this is probably a minority thing (well - let's see WoW 10 m - Eve 250 k - ok).
But new people grow up and anyway most people simply never heard of Eve in 2003 - hard core player or not - so we can safely assume that the player base can grow some while the game remains hard core.
Now, from what I read between the lines your point is that by bowing to the wishes of the lame unwashed masses so as to explode the player base CCP made Eve into teletubby land.
Hm- let's see:
0.0 - still there, still no law unless you enforce it yourself
High sec - concord still comes after your ship's been wrecked
low sec - still a pirate infested mess carebears fear to go to
war decs - also still there
Payout for insurance is still the same - but now many ships are T2 where payout is a joke compared to market value of ship (and let's not go into t2 mods) - so this part has become harsher actually
Is pvp suddenly consensual only - nope
There's certainly a lot more ships and stuff and POS and all. But besides stuff and more people all around - what's the big diff to 2003?
Did some favourite uber-ganking setup of yours re-balanced? Get over it. Can't take the harshness of having to compete at equal terms? Tough. With all the whining from some forumites here some pvper sound downright carebearish too me - Eve become too harsh for you? :-)
That wasn't it` Well- what is the freakin problem then?
OK - I kinda miss the 30 jumps of deep deep space beyond the chokepoints before conquerable stations, extra outer jump routes and outposts beyond the chokepoints. But OTOH it was a lot of wasted space that hardly anybody used for anything.
Having more people in 0.0 is unavoidable (also people used to whine about hardly anybody living in 0.0) and CCP would have gone broke with the subs from early 2004 (actually almost happened back then).
Eve 2003 - can be quite harsh, laggy with many ships (= 20)
Eve 2008 - can be quite harsh, laggy with many ships (= 200)
The fundamentals did not change at all. Just more stuff. cooler graphics. More platforms. Improved GUI. Better gang/fleet support. Eve voice.
So, please, be a bit specific.
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 14:13:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 14:14:04
 Originally by: Rafilialindal
I'd just like to say, I can see where the OP is coming from. After putting so much time and effort into something like eve..wouldn't it be strange not to feel angry at ccp?
Err - why exactly? Or roughly? Or anything guessable hinted at?
Just like the OP you fail to explain what it is that annoys you.
I'm not saying CCP is a saintly bunch of unfailing angels who never make mistakes. But really - what's the terrible thing that would make it strange not to feel angry at them?
I'm not feeling angry yet and I fell I'm missing out on something here. ;-) Please enlighten me.
I know that the usual suspects are:
* Some nerf or other (aka they plugged a design hole that wasn't supposed to be there from the beginning)
* lag (aka I want want want to be in Jita all the time, or our blob and their blob didnt work out so well, even though big blob is now hundreds instead of tens)
* didn't implement somebodies pet feature yet
* eve too harsh (aka I got ganked)
* eve not harsh enough (aka didn't find somebody I could gank right away)
* CCP only caters to pvpers
* CCP only caters to carebears
* CCP screws noobs
* CCP screws veterans
* fresh out of the oven: Chribbas Veldnaught
I don't see a reason to really get angry about any of this.
And as many complaints actually contradict each other we really need more specifics.
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 14:35:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Without trying to sound emo (I'm not, at all actually). If you can't see what I mean then I guess you don't see the problem (yet). In that case I'm happy for you.
And you can neither explain nor hint what you mean because ....?
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 14:55:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 14:55:45
Originally by: Shevar
-0.0 has changed significantly with the introduction of sov and player owned structures.
Granted. They made space conquerable. IMHO a good change - but it certainly is a big change. Agreed.
Originally by: Shevar
-High sec penalties for killing ships has been greatly increased (and will be further increased according to a dev blog).
Not changing the overall game at all. In the olden days killing ships in high sec was extremely rare. War decs and more recently suicide ganks got out of hand. The "changes" just brought things back to where they used to be. making wars more expensive is basically just inflation compensation.
Originally by: Shevar
-Low sec is a lot safer now as it was in the past. Sentry guns have been buffed several times.
That and WT0 makes a bit of difference - but not much. It was mostly noobs that got ganked in low sec in the beginning and it's mostly noobs that get ganked in ÷ow sec now.
Originally by: Shevar
-War decs now cost money.
If they didn't in the first few weeks/months I actually forgot about it. Certainly no recent change. As closer to the fabled early days as makes no difference.
And I hope you agree that there has to be some cost to getting a war licence in empire - otherwise high sec is joke.
Originally by: Shevar
-Base insurance was a later addition (when you blew your ship up back in the day and you did not buy insurance then you got no isk at all).
Right - but, again - that was changed fairly early. Hardly something that could be used as an argument for slippery slope in more recent years. And 40% of ship base price still means that you have to refinance 70+% (modules not being insured) of what you just lost.
Originally by: Shevar
PvP has become a lot more consensual due to the above changes...
Not true.
If a carebear gets ganked and looses his ship with tens of millions in cargo he won't really care that he gets a couple hundred k as base in surance for his indu, does he?
And for somebody flying a T2 ship with T2 equipment even a platinum insurance borders on being irrelevant.
And nobody profits from nearly every noob being ganked out of the game because he looses a couple of ships and has *nothing* left.
Eve did and does provide some very limited protection to the low end and the unsuspecting by retaliation (Concord) and insurance. Both get increasingly irrelevant for advanced players (no concord in 0.0 and insurance a joke for T2 ships).
That's basically now as it has been. |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 15:23:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 15:23:54
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
[mostly repeating abstract non-specific complaint from first message]
Do I make any sense now :)
Sorry - not al all. :-)
I did read the complete OP.
It's all abtract and non-specific. They somehow changed direction, niche game, mass market.
My problem with this is:
Game A) certain sets of rules and features
Game B) exactly the same rules and features
Now we call game A a niche game and game B a mass-market game.
Hm - didn't really help understanding what your problem is.
I understand that the word mass-market somehow carries nightmarish meanings to the more elitist among us (me included) - but it doesn't really say anything concrete.
Mass-market and niche are vaguely defined and very relative terms.
100k players is pretty much a mass market if the whole market is just 200k players and 1 m players can be a niche if the market has 100 m players.
For the facts that death has a cost (beyond hovering back from a graveyard or some lame variation thereof), that there are no shards, the sci fi theme and the overall focus on pvp you could call EVE a niche game at almost any size. There's still regular messages on forum by noobs who get angry because somebody destroyed their ship in low sec - just like way back when.
And these fundamentals did not change. Many of the changes (raising cost of wars etc) just kept things roughly were they were (people getting richer after all). Wars still get declared.
I'm not saying there were no changes. But iMHO most changes were well within the stated goals of the game and most did enrich it.
I assume you feel that your objections are somehow self-evident, but I have to tell you that they aren't.
If CCP had made high sec into a non-pvp zone, abolished war decs and starts respawning your lost ship inclusing equipment and implants for your clone at a nearby Nano-Reassembly Center - they yes - I would know what you're talking about. But none of that happened and none of that is likely to happen.
So what exactly has gone wrong thanks to that supposed horrible new (and debatable) status as a mass-market game?
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 15:27:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
There is a difference between groth for the sake of making the game grow, and growth at all cost to act as a staging point for your next venture.
Total and utter agreement in general.
Has nothing to do with Eve - so not relevant. Or did I miss the introduction of shards, free clones with implants and 15 second nano-reassembly of destroyed ships that can only be used in systems designated as pvp areas?
You're still throwing around wishy washy abstractions without real info content.
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:04:00 -
[7]
Feels almost like an IM session. :-)
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
@Glengrant:
That's the point really, there is no one thing that stands out. I look at it from a management/company POV rather than ingame specifics.
Oh - my mistake then. I thought we were talking about this game Eve that you just quit (or so I took from your thread title).
So - it's nothing specific in the game then that bothers you?
Strange reason to quit IMHO ("nice game, but didn't like where the company might be going - perhaps - if I interpreted them right"). ;-)
But your choice of course.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
I'll try to highlight some aspects.
Thanks.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
- a while time ago (1-2 years or something can't remember) all of a sudden there was dev blog which kinda stated "Right, this is how we've been doing things, this is how we're going to do things and oh; we have a goal of attaining 300k subscriptions".
Yup - I remember that.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
First two parts are good, change happens; you've been somewhere and now you're gonna change some stuff. no problem there. But the last part should set off some alarms.
Sorry - didn't. And don't see why it should. I *always* assumed they wanted 300k subs, and 500k and 1 m. CCP is a for-profit company, not a bunch of masochists who say no to money - or would you?
The questions is not how many subs they want to sell (plenty no doubt) - but what they would do to the game to get them. In my experience CCP is a company that cares a lot about its game and it's obvious that they developed something that they would like themselves.
Now - if Sony would have bought Eve I would fully excpect them to milk it till its dry and dead (see SWG). But so far CCP always managed to keep true to the fundamentals.
I don't fully agree with every single design decision they make - but it would be strange otherwise.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
WHY do you want 300k subscribers all of a sudden (where you previously couldn't give a rats ass about subscription numbers,
And that's your mistake right there. Your assumption they didn't care about subscriptions. Of course they did. Always. They could have done a board game and sold 10k of them - but they made a MMO and when you make a MMO you care very much about numbers.
They cared about how and with what they get those numbers. They obviously have a design vision that makes Eve a bit different from most other games (single universe, death hurts, can be harsh, challenging, open) - but you can want both. Have a well designed challenging game that is successfull. Who wouldn't want that?
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
And; HOW FAR are you willing to go and alienate from your previous path and playerbase to make that number happen.
And they seem to have alienated you - though you have difficulties explaining what spefici part of the game annoyed: Actually you said above that it is noting specific min the game itself - which brings us full circle back to what has CCP actually done wrong?
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
That single number goal means a whole lot;
To you perhaps. To me it's just an interim number. At what what number is CCP an evil sell-out? Why not 100k - or 750k? What's so special about 300k?
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
it means that the goals of CCP have changed,
Just a moment ...
[I get to my time machine ...]
[...back]
... ok I just went back to early 2003 and asked the guys from CCP if they want 300k or even 750k subscribers and they said "Hell yeah. That would be wonderful. We need > 100 k to even break even and make a bit of money to pay for all that hardware and bandwidth we'll need".
:-)
[Historical note: According to an interview years back - CCP almost went bankcrupt in 2004 or so]
I'm sorry mate but to me the idea that CCP ever thought that 300k players is too much is silly. :-)
...
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
All of a sudden it went from "lets make a cracking pewpew game" to "moar money!!!".
Don't kid yourself. They always wanted to make money. And so wanted their investors.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
There is ofcourse nothing wrong with wanting high profit on investment but from a customer's point of view I will have my reservations about how much they still have my wellbeing and concerns as a first priority, if I initially was attracted to the game because of it's niche and different gameplay?
Sure - fair enough. But you said above that you don't have specific problems with Eve. This all seems to boil down to what you *think/fear* CCP *might* be doing to the game in the future, based on the faulty assumption that their goals havew changed drastically.
If pursuing lots of subs (as they *always* did) doesn't ruin the game (and it hasn't so far - nor has anything being announced that sounds like they plan to do so) then what exactly is the problem.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Because to attract more people they will have to look elswhere, and to attract those new people they will have to offer them things they're accustomed to, that sound familiar and not at all too radical.
You're making this up out of thin air. The MMO market as a whole is growing. So even if the potential percentage for fabled classic harsh eve is a low percentage - the absolute pool of potential subscribers has grown a lot over the years.
There's a ready supply of people who grow tired of the simple stuff in WoW and look for something beyond that. And then there's the fallout of failures like E&B and SWG that provided Eve with an influx of fresh blood.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
In other words; in order to attain their goal they will have to conform to the general public, moving from a niche game and attitude towards a more moderate way of doing things. To oversimplify and exxagerate; they'll have to make WOW in space (I know, corny but you get my point).
And again with the unfounded assumptions.
As you quite rightly state yourself they won't out-wow WoW. So, lucky for us they don't even try. Instead they can harvest the players unsatisfied with their lvl 70 grinders.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
I don't WANT WOW in space, I want EVE in space.
100% agreed.
Or rather I do want the above. You seem to be leaving.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
That is the problem that EVE had; overall good ideas and amazing game, but shitty on the details.
Well - in specific cases I would no doubt agree with you that some details are sub-optimal (ok shitty even :-) ) - but as a general statement I want explanations because I don't agree.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
So, they're alienating a part of the older clientele, in favor of new customers (which, if the numbers work out correctly is good for them).
And yet you never explained what those features that favour new customers over the good old players are. I would like to know - being among the supposed victims here after all.
Also there are all those threads on GD where fresh pilots whine abput how they can never catch up (< utter fail in understanding eve mechanics based on lvl based assumptions in their part), or how CCP only caters to the veteran power player with all those capitals, cyno-jammers and stuff that's only for 0.0 pvpers.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Thing is; those new customers want flawless gameplay, proper details and no bugs
What- and veteran eve players don't want flawless gameplay, proper details and less bugs?
This is getting really silly. ;-)
I for one want, pretty please, a game that's flawless, well-detailed and bugfree.
Alsoo you somehow overlooked all those threads where veteran eve players complained about exactly those things and how some bugs are in the game for way too long.
And BTW - big piece of software that's bugfree - no such thing ever existed.
...
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Thing is; those new customers want flawless gameplay, proper details and no bugs
What- and veteran eve players don't want flawless gameplay, proper details and less bugs?
This is getting really silly. ;-)
I for one want, pretty please, a game that's flawless, well-detailed and bugfree.
Alsoo you somehow overlooked all those threads where veteran eve players complained about exactly those things and how some bugs are in the game for way too long.
And BTW - big piece of software that's bugfree - no such thing ever existed.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
because they're used to that as that is what blizzard did SO well with WOW and their other games; it WORKS.EVE cannot provide that.
EVE works too.
I agree that Blizzard is good at designing games and making them well-rounded.
But when iz comes to MMOs this is an apple and oranges comparison. WoW attempts less - so it's easier to get things right.
Let's compare again when WoW works without shards, does not prohibit pvp anywhere, has a complex and completely player driven market economy and allows players to scam and kill their neighbours *everywhere*.
Blizzard kept things simple. The simple they did very very well - as with their previous games. But what they attempted is *much* less than Eve - or none of us would be here.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
So, they might get new people short term but it is my opinion that they will be unable to retain them long term.
And yet - in my experience - Eve is very good at retaining people and has a very high rate of people coming back after a break.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Do you understand my 'fear' for the long term implications these decisions and effects will have for the long term players?[q/uote]
I share your distaste what you think will happen. We differ in that I have yet to see any of that in Eve or even an announcement that's on the horizon that hints at such.
Let's continue this discussion when you come back next year. :-)
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:11:00 -
[10]
The 7 months *average* is actually an old number that I remember from a blog 1 or 2 years back. Nothing new here.
Also that's not as short as you think. Consider how many players test out a game and leave after a few days or weeks.
And then let's not forget the high rate of people coming back to Eve after a break of a few months or so.
I know people who returned the 3rd time by now.
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 19:07:00 -
[11]
OK - does anybody here have any actual *facts* (as in not conjured out of thin air and prejudice) about what resources go into WOD?
I'm sure it's a lot given that it didn't exist yet and it takes much more effort to get it going then to maintain an existing game - even if you still care very much for that 5+ years old game. Also with the money they make from growing number of users CCP can easily finance more employees for *both* Eve and WOD.
Last but not least - Eve is a proven product that works and brings in money. To just milk it for short term profit and bet the house on WOD that might be a big success or total failure would be crazy. Why would they do that?
And all that without considering that CCP still loves Eve.
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 19:21:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Glengrant on 27/08/2008 19:23:17
Quote:
Trained for sniper minmatar stuff and artilleries--then alphastrike gets nerfed...
Sniping and Minmatar stuff - still work.
Quote:
Trained for zealots and ganking, then damage mods get nerfed...
Zealots still do damage and ganking still works
Quote:
Trained for missiles for easy PVE, then missiles got balanced with about 1 year of new skills with RMR...
Missiles still work.
Quote:
Trained for the T2 lottery, ended up with "rage thorn rocket bpo" then all that gets nerfed...
Got more than I did. :-)
Quote:
Trained for the old school courier missions (remember those where u hauled 50000m3 in a freighter for 9000LP and a bucket of trade goods like 500000 antibiotics! God, I miss those!) and then they got nerfed...
Can't comment - never did those.
Quote:
Trained shield skills for the nighthawk... got nerfed...
Shields, Nighthawk - still works.
Quote:
Then trained minmatar and every godly speed skill to 5, and now that is getting nerfed...
Minmatar will still have fast ships and speed will still be an advantage - just not as insanely overdone as now. Get over it.
Quote:
Trained for all drones and the mymerdon 5 heavies... got nerfed...
Still works - but perhaps not well enough. Grant you this one.
Quote:
Trained up max nos skills for the NOS domi... got nerfed...
NOS, Domi - still work.
Quote:
Trained up carriers to haul for mining ops... got nerfed...
Well - I could have predicted that one. It's a - well- Carrier. Being used as a JF was obviously not its designed purpose. If you're surprised that this gets reigned in - shrug.
And it still works as a carrier - right? The role it was actually designed for? And besides the racial carrier skill all your skills still come in handy when flying a JF.
So - no really and actual problem after all.
Quote:
Trained up scanning to be better at pvp scanning people... got nerfed...
Scanning still works and still makes a diff for pvp.
I don't fault you that you constantly look for the greates advantage - that's natural and cool. It's a given that Eve players will find any design mistake and exploit it to the extreme. Enjoy that while it lasts - but be prepared for the re-balancing when the problem gets too obvious.
Everybody whining about nerfs: The <whatever> feature is not gone - just no longer insanely overpowered. Get over it and either make use of the new and just regularly effective feature - or look for the next crack in the design (and don't tell your buddies - as long as only a few people make use of ot and nobody notices - nobody will fix it).
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 12:36:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Originally by: Dihania
No parting gift for me?
My account's still active, and it wouldn't be done with this char anyway. Besides, you wouldn't want this parting gift.
ROTFL
So - that's really it? The game at the moment is fine and enjoyable - but you fear it might go wrong long term?
:-)
Hey man - you feel like you feel and if you rather play something else - your choice entirely.
But that's one of the silliest reasons to quit ever. ;-)
Re comments about Ambulation: IMHO it's more a matter of "Hey guys - we build this avatar engine anyway for WOD - let's do some extra graphics and have a version for Eve. Would make an impressive patch and STFU all those detractors whoe wine about no avatars in Eve.".
If that makes a test case for WOD at the same time - extra bonus.
And BTW - from the comments that they try to think of ways to not make everybody run around (and jump up) all day because that would be silly and destroy immersion - props to CCP to care about such details - because I hate that in other MMOs.
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 13:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
@Glengrant
Are you sure? In all seriousness, to me it isn't.
Right - I get that.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
IF I'm going to waste a large part of my free time and a bit of cash on something I would like it to last a bit, especially when it comes to a long term game like EVE.
I'm with you on that one.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
This is not an FPS which you buy, complete in 5 hours, replay once or twice and try the multiplayer a bit.
Agreed.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
MMO's by design, and certainly EVE, are long term "investments". NOT thinking about the long term viability and design decisions would be rather short sighted methinks.
Still agreeing. :-)
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
To me I see CCP (have been) going in a direction that makes me lose my initial (and rather important) attraction to the game. Apart from that I feel that already they have been shifting assets and development time away from EVE, because no matter how much of a fanboy one is, you gotta admit that at some point this will happen. Perhaps I'm being more pessimistic about it than others.
And that's where we divert in our assessment.
CCP now develops a second game - like so many game companies before them. Concentrating on just one game makes no sense to a company that intends to stay in business long term. As a plus for either game - the extra income stream can help weather bad times. So if WOD is reasonably successfull it can mean a longer lifetime for Eve.
2 Scenarios:
1: 2010: Sony releases "Star Wars 2" - it's a great success and Eves subs crash to 50k - after a few months CCP shuts down.
2: Thanks to diversified income CCP weathers the frenzy about SW 2 until a year later Sony again ruins the SW brand and Eve players come back en masse.
Please note that they have *many* more employees than when they started and that a mature game needs less developers than a new designed one. So - without having inside information about resource allocation - there's per se no reason that WOD actually detracts from Eve development.
And let's not forget that there is actual potential for synergy here - would Eve have gotten Ambulation this soon without WOD in the making where the avatar engine is needed anyway and could then be re-used at low cost in eve?
Probably not.
Not everybody actually cares much about ambulation (me included - might be nice - but I don't need it) - but plenty of Eve players have asked for this from the very beginning and I know somebody who says that this is one of the things that turns him off about Eve. He likes much about Eve, is a hardcore gamer - but misses avatars in Eve.
At the end of the day - I have seen no arguments that are convincing that CCP somehow abandons Eve or doesn't care about it anymore or drastically changed direction.
And as I said above - it would make 0 sense for them to crash a game for short-term money when the alternative is far from certain to ever being a monetary success.
Sure - nothing is forever and Eve will probably vanish one sad day. But at the moment that day is not foreseeable.
And the same is true for any other game you might want to play.
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
In the end we'll see who's right or wrong.
True enough.
And thanks for a calm discussion. For somebody who is unsatisfied you are among the very few who can argue without getting into an unreasonable rage.
I'll buy you a drink at the 10 year anniversary party of Eve. :-)
---
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
| |
|